You probably know that my WH Blah has found the truth of his OW on his latest topic "WS please read", anyway, he only explained how he was played a fool,I feel that I need to tell the whole truth of OW.

I contacted OW's XH 8-9,emailed to Blah 8-10 about all the infos I gathered,OW's XH had to leave the country till 8-19,and I was away till 8-21,called OW's XH & he had given me OW's live-in BF Bob's cell#,OW's XH spoke to Bob about me calling him and about WH & OW's A...Bob & I spoke & went to see WH 8-22, they faced each other and the truth was out in the open...

The truth of OW~ she has always been in affairs, she slept with her own uncle about 20 years her senior just to get into the country and stayed at uncle's house for free when she was still married to her XH,her XH found uncle's love letter to her about the hotel they stayed,the sex and the beach
she also caught with a married man Joseph while she was married to XH, even with Bob she was still with this Joseph,probably casual sex,my WH met this Joseph,a cell phone rep with OW,WH suspected there was something between those two..so I am pretty sure she still sleep with cell rep. OW said she is clean and I believe all the men she sleeps with(and all the women her men sleep with..)do not use protection that include Bob and WH,she lied to WH that she was molested by a priest at aged 18 in her country...she had been telling Bob she loved him and WH the same thing,Bob slept with her on 8-21 night and 8-22 with WH in the morning..the two men felt insulted and seemed to "compete" each other who OW loved more....I can not even imagine,surely you can probably understand how low and destructive one can be. OW has a messy sexual relationships with different men,she has another lover in San Diego that her kids would tell the XH about,that they always visit this other man in SD and dined together. WH went to SD with OW in March for 4 days,OW left WH in the hotel on a Sat morning to meet with a doctor for training at 6am,told WH she would return at 10am but didn't show till noon..her training in bed,what else?! The funky trust WH had for her is an unsolved mystery..here WH said he trusted her but each break off or NC the first thing that flooded WH's mind was "she must be with another man now" so quickly to judge her to find WH's replacement yet "continued" his A with such psycho...help me to understand...

OW made up documentation that she had a BS in Biolgogy(job requirement)to get her present job in pharmaceutical sales,she also told WH that she studied physical therapy(what WH supposed to study
in grad school he gave up in July 03)in her country. How much truth in her life?(lies)

OW has over 40K in debts when she generously offer "financial support" to WH when he was going to grad school and when WH was just about to feel the finacial burden if he divorced his wife,she made all kind of promises to make him stay and he stayed all the time..how blind one can be? OW acted as if she was rich(with no class)she was mad when I digged out all her dirty truth,she wanted to sue me to have invaded her "privacy"...

She used Bob to get half of the mortgage paid,
they owned the house together but OW told WH that she gained the house from her divorce,Bob lives with her for 4 years,paid to take them to oversea trips at least once a year,paid for her children's
lessons on scuba diving,music,languages. She called Bob's mom "mommy" and Bob's dad "dad",she called Bob "daddy" now WH recalled when she called Bob before WH she said "daddy" to the man on the phone, WH thought that was her uncle,WH even told me that she called WH "daddy" in bed as well, she must be confused who she was in bed at the moment..taht is why she is so good at calling others sweetheart,love etc...

Much more, but these should be it for now..help me to understand why WH still write her email to ask OW why she did what she did to WH??? Instead of asking WH himself why he did what he did to me his BW and the rest of the people in the family??

Thought it was a summary, guess not, too much dirty truth... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks for reading.

<small>[ September 09, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: wangi ]</small>

Wangi, your H is in withdrawl. He's is still bouncing between reality and fog. It's going to take him some time to come to grips with what he's truly done and why he did it.

I'm not sure how airing the OW's dirty laundry here is going to help you? If anything, it only looks as if you're trying to make your H look foolish. Trust me, I know what he did was foolish, but 'proving' that to everyone isn't productive and won't help him to get to a healthier place. It will just breed more anger and resentment.

So if you're considering a possible reconciliation at some point...you might want to reconsider your post. Just my opinion.

H4F you said "So if you're considering a possible reconciliation at some point...you might want to reconsider your post. Just my opinion." I do
appreciate your thoughts.

I do understand and trust me I thought of all the possibility before posting and I actually got Blah's consent this morning before posting,I asked because I knew at some point that make him look foolish and he has been open about his screw-up and I am not here to trash his foolishness,
just to let others know how wicked can an OW be..

I am only bummed that there was indeed such destructive person that had affected my life, I do not like that a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> It is bad enough to have a WH that strayed and to find out that he was all caught up with someone like this
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Sigh

Not sure what is worse...to find out that he was deceived by someone who has made their live by decieving others...or to find out the OP was a generally upstanding person who had never hurt another person intentionally in their life. I'm thinking it would be easier, as a WS, to get over someone with such an ugly character (once the rose colored glasses were off).

H4F,even my WH thought that this time would be easier after knowing her ugly truth..but he can't seem to get pass the thoughts of how MUCH he had shown to her including letting himself destroyed in almost everywhere...why she did what she did...WH even tried to "protect" her by telling me that she is like this is because she was molested by a priest,which was also a made-up story..therefore she lied all her life??? I don't understand...trying to get true answers from a liar is almost like to borrow a comb from a monk(some ancient Chinese saying) Now, I know OW said to WH that she is moving out that means she will be free from Bob,the reality is she is still trying to keep Bob so the house won't be going on sale and Bob has been her financial institution(Bob's XW was a WS and from the same country as OW..I hope he learns but if he chose to be with OW,good luck.)I know she is still trying hard to lure WH back..she seems to work her "charm" on WH pretty well??? Or he would start NC? I don't know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You are talking about expecting rational thoughts from an unrational man. He's addicted, remember? He wants to believe her lies, because otherwise it means he was wrong and he feels stupid about his decisions. It doesn't feel good to be wrong, to know you've made decisions based on lust...so it would feel better to him to go back and believe most of it a terrible misunderstanding.

Your best bet would be to back off and let him flounder. Because if he's "defending" her, it means you put him in a position to do so...which means he starts 'siding' again. Don't let him side with her...just stay out of it. She'll use him and spit him out like every other man in her life, and then he'll have no one to blame but himself.

H4F,I agree...I only want to be here for him since no one IS,and I had tried not to even bother about whatever the OW is still trying to do and what he is hoping to see in her, I guess speaking as a FWS you know better about what a WS thinks and feels. It is the addiction, no doubt. His addictive behavior is his biggest problem,but I look at him as the "old" good and honest man that I married to,I believe in him that way just like I am also in denial that this man that I married to is gone and will never return...just let him BE. Thanks H4F for your reply.

It's not a matter of the "old" him being gone and never returning...it's his choice who he decides to be. At this point, he needs to make that decision on his own...with no help or "education" from you. It's not your job to be there for him while he's making an a$$ out of himself. It's your choice to be there with him if he decides at some point to become a man that would deserve what you've offered him. At his point, however, he's not that man...so your best bet is to take care of yourself and work on being the best you that you can be.

H4F, I guess you are right..just let him BE..I feel like just ending the M once and for all..I am so tired, perhaps tired of waiting and feeling hopeless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Wangi doesn't say how cruel and angry she is with me MOST of the time (some things never change). How I have to constantly tell her to lower her tone of voice. Or how she digs through the garbage to find evidence against me (weird!). She snoops into my computer history to see where I have surfed, and she has done other things against me that I have not discovered yet or she refuses to admit. My reply here is a classic interaction with us, always defending ourselves from each other. If she doesn't want to play on the same team then it may be time to join another one. She comes here and cries to you but doesn't tell you her wrongdoings, she is an angel like all BSs right? Thats why the WS was so happily married right?

You have an affair for almost 2 years and you complain about her being angry and not trusting you!?!??!?!? Incredible. It's only been what a week since you ended the affair? Well you'll have to excuse her, you f** her over for two years and it's going to take some time to recover.

TMD you have a point.

But if a cop pulls you over, do you argue with him so that he lets you go? No, you are kind and respectful.

Did you ever think that she has a right to be unkind and disrespectful? If you do then you are also damaged goods. Only people with dirty feet like doormats.

If she wants the marriage she has to be an active participant in the process of recovery, not an instigator. What does she want and how can she get it, pretty simple. Kindness and respect go a long way. And I go nowhere without them. My marriage is not to be defined by how lowly i can grovel and how much s-h-i-t I can take from her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blah34:
<strong>TMD you have a point.

But if a cop pulls you over, do you argue with him so that he lets you go? No, you are kind and respectful.

Did you ever think that she has a right to be unkind and disrespectful? If you do then you are also damaged goods. Only people with dirty feet like doormats.

If she wants the marriage she has to be an active participant in the process of recovery, not an instigator. What does she want and how can she get it, pretty simple. Kindness and respect go a long way. And I go nowhere without them. My marriage is not to be defined by how lowly i can grovel and how much s-h-i-t I can take from her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah,
Good to hear from you. You are correct about kindness and respect going a long way. These qualities along with trust are hard to restore to someone who has lost one's respect and trust.

My WS used to say much the same about me a while back. Now he says much nicer things, yet you know what? I haven't changed much.

My H has changed. Together we learned that he needed to put his family's needs ahead of his own. He also had to put his pride aside. He realized having his way (which was the A) was not healthy for him or his family.

My personal boundaries clashed with his and on certain thngs I found, mine would not budge. I am not demanding (at least not all the time). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In reality, he had to do more. He had to earn his right to be with our family, not the other way around.

Does Wangi have those rights? Hm......I know my answer.

How much do you think Wangi s/b angry, hurt, scared, loved, caressed, held, hugged? How about you?

The attention and time you spent on the A robbed Wangi and she wants what is her's back. Is that U? That is up to U.

I felt the A robbed me, raped me, pillaged me and my family. I was stabbed by the one I loved and yet, I was not allowed to be angry. I was suppose to be perfect and right all the time.

Well guess what? Reality says, I am not perfect, I knew that. I make mistakes. I knew that. I have needs. I knew that. I may get scared. I knew that. I may get angry. I knew that. And that was ok...... I didn't know that. But I do now and so does my H.

Now we are on recovery. Should he ever slip again? Just know that you have not felt the pain, this Orchid can inflict. Only my love, respect and trust in God ranks higher. That has kept the WS and OW alive. As well as myself.

I don't regret that the OW can appear to do better after this A. Even if she wins the lottery, gets happily married, has a kid (though I would feel sorry for the child), whatever, I am not angry at that. I just don't want her touching what is mine.

Now the place where you and Wangi both are, are where H and I have been. You can either stay there or you can get better or worse. The choice right now is not all Wangi's, it is yours also but the effort is more yours than hers.

Blah, you have to win her back. She is not yours right now. You cast her aside and she is trying to stand up. Look, she is struggling. She has fallen down and is crying. All alone and feeling helpless. Her appearance to you may seem strong. I know I did. But inside, I was hurt. Many a night I wept myself to sleep.

When we meet, you will see that I am much tougher looking than Wangi. Well, I am a bit older also. But it doesn't mean that I don't have feelings. This 'ol battlelac' did shed many a tear over her H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Please think about this deeply before you demand more out of Wangi.

You know the door is open for you to call and speak to my H anytime you need. I will respect your privacy.

take care,
L.

Blah,

You have lots of decisions to make...
lots of ways to look soley at your actions in this and figure what is not working and change you, your response and your actions...

Communication patterns especially resolving conflicts are easy to get in to the same old same old and difficult to change...

It should be obvious you need to explore your own role in conflict resolution and be able to change your responses...

often the changes we make..illicit changes in others...

You start there with you...

Wangi doesn't say how cruel and angry she is with me MOST of the time (some things never change).

oh I beg to differ people change all the time..usually with lots of growing pains and setbacks...

If you believe in your own ability to change and be faithful..then you must extend this own belief to her...even when it appears impossible...

How I have to constantly tell her to lower her tone of voice.

quit telling her to lower her the voice..it's not working...you keep saying it...she doensn't do it...change your response...
if you are being yelled out....end your participation 100% in the interaction....
over and over and over again..
eventually she will realize that all her yelling is keeping you both from being heard...
take control of what you can...

BUT...also know that you have great responsibility in creating an environment in which it is safe for her to unload her anger and pain....

you owe her that one...but it needs to be productive so that both people really hear the other...

Or how she digs through the garbage to find evidence against me (weird!). She snoops into my computer history to see where I have surfed, and she has done other things against me that I have not discovered yet or she refuses to admit.

so what!!!
both of you sure are spending a lot of time power struggling over silly stuff..
it's a good divergence...keeps the real issues and pain away...
as long as we can keep distracting eachother with all this external posturing....it sure is safe to not resolve any thing real...

always defending ourselves from each other.

quit your part in defending...
both drop the victim roles...

you both have lots of tangable things to work on...

She comes here and cries to you but doesn't tell you her wrongdoings, she is an angel like all BSs right? Thats why the WS was so happily married right?

boy that was cruel...and I'm neither BS or WS...

who are you so mad at blah?
I think I know who wangi is mad at....and she sure is wasting time...
but who are you so angry at...
and what's your payoff for your anger...

I believe that both of you can overcome this...
I believe people can change...

ark the eternal beleiver...I believe..

blah34,

did you read this ?

"I feel like just ending the M once and for all..I am so tired, perhaps tired of waiting and feeling hopeless... ".

I would start reading "How to survive an affair" section of Q&A. From How A start to how to end A ...

Many has travel this road ... it is very narrow and full of pot holes more than you could fine in the street of Kuala Lumpur. Right now you are in withdrawal ... and angry 'cause someone has moved your cheese <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . You can't take it on wangi and you have to act quick. Take Orchid's offer to talk to her H, he has been on your shoes. Get MC to help both of you.

-rh-

Blah, Wangi is angry and snooping most of the time and you don't understand that?
YOu think you are entitled to privacy to continue your cheating, lying and abuse of her and the marriage and she should respect you for that?
You earned her behavior with your actions.
Also, the fact that you have risked her body and life to Disease! It's ok if you want to destroy yours, but show her some respect and keep hands off!
As a BW I know exactly how she feels. You killed a trust and gave away one of the most sacred parts of yourself and marriage to a slut!
You earn respect now and that is by dumping your wrath on the OW, not your wife!
Sorry, but I have no empathy for an WS! I won't buy the excuses, the fog bit or the crazy justifications they try to wrap around their dirty little secret lives.
Every wife deserves to have respect and know her H isn't sleeping around, putting her at risk of an incurable disease. And as for your OW being clean. NO WAY!
I've heard that story from my H. Well, aren't you men just a miracle that you can discover disease without any blood test or examinations by a professional? Gee, we could have saved thousands on doctor bills if we'd just know you!
I have no qualms about saying you made your wife who she is right now. If you don't like her, then you shouldn't have expected a pat on the back for your betrayal!
It does extensive damage to a person when their spouse commits adultery! mental, emotional, physical and spiritual.
Do you give a damn about what it's done to her? OR is it just that now you are faced with the fallout of your own actions?
You want her to become loving, and caring, and peaceful, they you have your own work to do.
You get what you give!
Don't ever ask for trust again, because you and no other WS deserves it.
There is no way one is going to trust 100% and be fooled again. Refusing to be duped is a way of protecting ourselves.
It's been 2 yrs since my H's A and I still check and I will until the day I die! He knows it, he accepts it.
There is nothing he can ever do to regain 100% trust because he had it and abused it badly.
LouLou

Wangi, someone cautioned you about airing the dirty laundry here. I say this is exactly where you ought to be able to do so and not fear anything or anyone.
I dont' see anyone rebuilding a marriage with all that still lying dormant inside one. You have get it out and I've been told that by at least 4 professionals!
Repressing it all will simple reward you with bad health all over.
Don't, because nobody is worth it!
I did the digging as well, and H wanted to deny it all. Couldn't possibly be his saintly little slut doing these things.
Hey, if that's what they respect and prefer, go for it!
Just don't keep the BW dangling on the side as a rescue squad!
Weird how the wife can be faithful, and trusting, then when they find out the H thinks they're nuts in their reaction. And fails to appreciate having a spouse who doesn't sleep around for the hell of it.
Fact is, anyone raped doens't usually like any man touching her so she wouldn't become a push over!
If H is hurting because of finding out the facts, he's getting exactly what he deserves and exactly the feelings he put Spouse through!
BTW, if any WH or WW wants privacy, get single and stay that way!
Because a marriage makes people one and then there is not nor should not be any reason for privacy. If you have nothing to hide, you hide nothing!
My marriage is my life, my home, so I'm entitled to know if it's being intruded upon and NO, my spouse is not entitled to bring this into it. Blah, when you decide to tell OW she's a piece of crap that you wouldn't wipe your feet on since you've come out of the haze, and start returning to your wife the respect she deserves, then maybe you'll get some respect also.
Until then, don't even ask!
Payback is hell!
LouLou
LouLou

Hi everyone who responded to Blah...WOW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Blah was mad at me last night,we emailed back and forth,he mentioned divorce,we were mad at each other,I left work & felt bad over the petty fights(I was angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> that he stays in contact even after OW's true ugly color exposed yet he is still depressed(I think it is because he felt like
a fool)& kept showing me that he wanted to compete
with Bob-OW's live-in BF(for 4 years)Blah kept saying he is better than Bob(that way he can justified that OW did not really use him,just that OW used Bob and in love with Blah???)Blah wants to revenge on OW to lead her on & hurt her later on,his motif of"being in contact",OW was trying to lure him back then she stopped writing for a couple of days & Blah became more depressed for she did not write back,her usual trick with him,begged him & silent then he will beg her till she returns...before he knew she is not only a cheater but also an expert adulteress who also slept with her own uncle etc etc, my anger began because after all the truth is out,WH still playing game and not thinking of himself or "us"
but to waste energy on "revenging" Yes,I am still angry,I am no angel,I am just a human whom WH thrown overboard. I am very tired..heart and soul. Sometimes I wonder why I am still here waiting.

Blah came on MB to lash out on my thread,I also understand..these were all made before I called him,I believe. He was mad that I called at first,
but then we softened ourselves down,I asked him how come he only demanded my understanding of his situation(withdrawal or being lied to??)not trying
to understand mine? I guess the phone call was ok and we ended up having dinner and discussed his career situation before he drove me back to my pad. I said to him that he had not shown me that he wanted the M(because each time I get angry with him or speak to him in "that" tone of voice,
he could only said that I did not shown any interests in wanting the M! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) I mentioned to him,since the day the OW's truth was exposed,
he had not change any phone#s,email addresses or anything that can convince me of NC. He said I never asked,also because I tried not to "demand"
I knew he wanted to leave "room" for OW to contact
him & she did called many times & left v/m. WH said he had not seen or spoken <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> to her
except emailing..it is IN CONTACT..must I be OK with it even he was obviously used by OW..Now,can you understand that I still have anger and resentment.

Please tell me is it right to always go back to the past to point out my wrong to justify his,we can look at what went wrong and change what was wrong and work on what was bad to better our M.
And;the present- how to solve the problems, only then we can move on..dwelling on that one time I asked for a divorce hence the A..is not going to help,is it? I miss our lives together as H & W,
the activities we had,the friends "we" had,his A made our friends became just "mine",we were able to trust each other,the trust defeated by the lust
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I just want to have a "normal" life. Am I asking too much..trust is not a gift,one must earn it,I do not know how well I can trust WH again & I believe he has to work very hard on regaining the most treasured I have had from him,the TRUST!

I know I am no angel but I am definitely not an evil <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> p.s.I did not dig into the garbage,I had to put trash in and saw OW's sanitary pad in it,so I asked if she was at his place..for she
"always" had pads in the garbage can that was how I found out when they "got" back together during his so-called NCs too many times....I think I believe "that"pad was from the Friday morning she last visited before I brought Bob to Blah! Oops.

Thank you all for responding and reading.
Orchid, mahalo as always, RH send me your email?

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: wangi ]</small>

Blah and I grew up from very different family backgrounds, his was abusive & dysfunctional, mine was loving, disciplined & spoiled. I have my inner child that keep me alive,I want to be loved and cared by one that I love. I "used" to always get what I wanted,Blah thinks I am immature or childish,I am not ashamed of it though I am almost 39,I had a great childhood,I miss that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do have a lot of growing up to do,now that I am so tired I do not even know what/how I feel but I do know I will go for golf lessons with RF and we often get together to eat good food with great appetite & we shared our anger/pain/resentment,RF has been wonderful & supportive of me,I am
blessed for all the caring friends I have,I do not feel miserable(lonely,yes)as an BS except feeling lost in the M and a WH that does not seem to know who he is who his W is and what does he really want in life...that is quite enough.

I have a great job that I love,everything in my life is good except for the one thing I wanted most is not there,it is the hardest and how long can I wait, 22 months is a long time..and an expensive lessons.

Life goes on,eh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: wangi ]</small>

Wangi,

now it's your turn... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> let me get out the 2X4...
with your name on it...

You also need to look directly and frankly at what role you are playing in power struggling with your husband and stop your behaviors that are responsible for the repeatitive break-down of communicatin...

You need to examine what it is exactly you want right now....from yourself and your husband and take actions that get you there...

regardless of what blah does or anyone else...

You are heavily focused on the action of the OW..your focus, anger and beating a dead horse..while understandable...and never ever to deny that this has hurt you....does not serve you any purpose ...AND may play a big role in future pain that you yourself are inviting in and creating...

You need to let the OW go...
You need to lighten up on Blah in relationship to the OW>...you are alienating him from you by your own actions...he can see the pain this has caused speak your peace on it..and let him mull it over..

that what we want to draw nearer to us...we must not shove away...

people change wangi...and you must create an environment in which while you can accept that blah did what he did... BUT that you believe in him enough that he can change away from being that person who would do such things...

I would say you are self sabotaging...but I am not clear on what it is you want from him...
so I am scared to use the word recovery..cause I don't think the two of you are even in the same vehicle..let alone headed down the road to recovery..

If you are yelling and screaming you need to stop...not because you don't feel like yelling or even because you shouldn't be angry...BUT because it serves no purpose in being heard...none..it totally undermines your quest to show him your hurt...

feel but I do know I will go for golf lessons with Rushed Fool and we often get together to eat good food with great appetite while b****ing about WHs

Wangi that statement is a huge LB and how alienating and sad for blah...to know you look forward to getting together with some one to bit@@ and complain about all his wrongness in the world....

Would you be excited to see your spouse after a golf lessons if you knew his reason for being there was to complain about you?? and all your evils...

what is your role in creating an environment to really learn the depth and pain of our errors..to be able to overcome them by realizing we are hurting those we need to care most about??

Infidelity hurts all persons..even the perpertrators...and again blessed are those that learn the bigger picture of what pain our own actions can cause ourselves and others...for those people will really grow and learn as Jesus instructed us to go and sin no more...not because the "act" is so bad...but because of the damage it causes everyones self worth and soul...and when we come to value our own and spouses self worth..the actions of infidelity become unthinkable...to truly cherish as our vows command.

It's a big role...and is always your choice..BUT if you choose it then you must actively create a place that allows the WS to learn, heal, and change...

Wangi take some time...define what it is you want..
define what actions help in what you want..
and also those that hurt...
and go from there...

imagine just deciding to change ONE or TWO things about this whole situation...and a whole new level of communication may open up as well...

whooo
done pounding on you..
now doesn't that feel better?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Wangi I/we know you are hurt...but where is that pain getting you..
no where...
time to change you..
ARK