Wangi,

I am blushing. :red face, blinking eyes: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for the compliment and the same to you. My Hawaiian is not very good but my heart is in the spirit of the language.

Be careful on that boat. Don't tip it, paddle just right. Keep balanced. Don't overexert yourself. Slow and steady. Move forward with courage and dignity.

Hey Blah, how'a doin'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

Orchid, mahalo nui loa...

I am just learning to paddle,like I did on my 1st
kayaking in August and I do not swim at all. Just sit steady though the boat rocks every now & then.

Orchid..yes,'Ae,ho'o malie(to calm;to soothe)my pu'uwai(heart) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ya..

Aloha 'oe,wahine nani.

its nice to be all rosy and flowery on here, but what about when the hard work of a BS relating to an almost 2 yr WS? Every minute together is a challenge, any flowers or rosy warm feelings in that? Apparently not. Game playing, manipulating, abusing...no no....lets give up its too hard...not enough flowery and light feelings.

After all you said you never tried all those years, why start now, after YOU have been hurt, only time for revenge, not for hard work...

I understand, just be honest and make your mind up, so that we can move on

Blah,

Trust to time. Trust to time and steady efforts. I guarantee you, if you are steady, loving and persistent, she won't be able to resist you.

A.M.,
You know I am trying just to talk to her, I was reading the SAA book trying to set up some rules, but she was resistant to even reading the book, it makes me wonder why she waited all that time...just to get revenge on me for the affair? I mean if she wants to work it out can she show it by at least being kind and respectful? She knows I am in withdrawl. Well I cannot take abuse from her so I will move on if she expects a life like that with me, I had enough of that before and I dont intend to relive that nightmare.

I dont think she realizes that I have been betrayed too, and I have a really hard time trusting her too, especially when she is abusive.

Yes, blah, you are in pain and withdrawal. I know that. But try to understand the resentment and anger of someone who has not only endured your betrayal, but now has to watch you withdraw, painfully, from the source of your pain, who was not worthy of your love, anyway. Try to imagine how hard it would be to regain trust. Try to put yourself in her shoes -- I know, I know, she should put herself in yours. But you are the only one you can control.

As a BS myself, I know I went through lots of big-time anger during our brief recovery, which was followed by a new betrayal, and more weeks of lying before I threw him out and into OW's arms.

Again, you have to be patient and persistent, and not wilt at the first barrier, because there will be many more to come -- in any life, with anyone. I watched my own H wilt, and he has increased the pain exponentially for everyone, including himself.

There's no way back, there's only forward. I know it will be hard for you to be persistent and steady, because you are still in withdrawal and don't even know what you want right now. You're confused, but for the next few months you will have to act a part you won't feel right off. It's usually that way -- the feelings will follow the actions.

Think of it as a little hell you have to go through for a few months. There are plenty of voices on this board to tell you it's worth it, in the long run. Maybe trust those other voices for awhile. Operate on faith that they know what they're talking about. Then, in six months, reevaluate things. But you have to start with a real NC, and go cold turkey. Otherwise, you'll just prolong the mess. Guaranteed.

Thanks AM,
She has to move out of her apt. today, and we had a big fight last night...she wanted to move in with me, and I thought it wasn't a good idea, because we are always fighting, and I am in withdrawl. I think she thinks I owe her or something, and she thinks I am suspicious of why she "needs" to move in (ie she feels guilty) but her guilt comes out as anger. She is just a raging ball of anger that I dont want to deal with right now. I wanted her to move in yesterday, but last night she started being evil...divorce is looking likely

and by the way, this is day 6 no contact, I don't want to go back to OW even if I get divorced.....JADED?

I was a raging ball of fire too at one point. It does calm down. I know she loves you, and I know she will calm down.

One of the things that drove me nuts was when my H didn't want to deal with my anger -- anger that had been inspired by his behavior. I understand your feeling, but can you understand how that would make a BS even more insane? The rage I was feeling was bottomless (probably still is, but now it's irrelevent).

Why don't you talk to Steve Harley? I haven't (now that my H is living with his beloved OW, there's no reason to, but if we ever go into recovery, I certainly will), but I hear he's very, very good from a friend who did.

Trust me: Wangi will calm down. That's part of the hell you have to both live through. Don't get a D on the basis of a temporary, passing phenomenon. Let time pass. Reassure her.

It may be Day 6 of NC, but if Wangi is anything like me, she suspects that there is contact as soon as her back is turned. Because that used to be what was happening. That was reality for a long time. It will take a while for her to realize that that "reality" is now part of the horrible past.

Let some time pass. Don't make any decisions for six months. It's all still too volatile to get a long-term picture. But any calm, reassuring, loving actions on your part -- even if you have to fake it -- will be remembered and help the awful healing.

From your photo you look rather sportif. Can you go to a gym and punch a punching bag for a few hours. Even better if Wangi could.

AM,
Sorry your WS is with OW, he will discover what it is like to lay his pearls before swine, and to live in a den of theives....that road will lead to his destruction...OW will bring him more pain than he bargained for.

Wangi is not ready, I still want her to move in here, but she is still raging....she is not being kind

Could you cut some sort of deal? Separate rooms? She has to leave for an hour if she's yelling? Something like that... is there a way to negotiate? Watching you in withdrawal will be painful for her -- but on the other hand, if she has a separate room there would be somewhere for her to withdraw to.

Why don't you call Orchid's H, Orchid -- maybe sit down, the four of you, and negotiate a deal? With outsiders who know the story (and have their own), it might be easier for everyone to talk.

<small>[ September 13, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Just spoke to Orchid's H. He's around, and willing to help. I think he could be a good, neutral third party for both of you to talk to.

blah34,

Like Mrs. Martin said, both of you really need third party to be the middle guy. Beleive me we 2x4 BS also if they are not heading the right direction. It is sad if M is over just because both of you are not in sync.

If you really want this M back why don't you call MB coach ... talk to SH. The whole Harley's reputation is helping people to fall in love again ... as long as they are willing to go the distant.

If really cost is the issues, you live around the area ... why don't you call Pastor D from Church of the Highland in San Bruno ?. I believe your W pass that info for you, I emailed her a few days ago. The waiting list is long but you should tell him that you are facing separation.

The key is willing and both of you are willing but unable to find the right path. There are many resources available ... Orchid's H, MB Coaches, Pastor D and us ... but this is the time both of you stop this nonsense (posting bit and pieces would only inflame the hurt) and get real. Wangi has my cell# ... if you want to talk.

-rh-

thanks AM an RH, we worked it out, she is moving in today. But we have to really work hard at this, its not going to be easy. Thanks for all your tips, please keep your 2 x 4s handy.

We are behind you 100 percent.

OK, AMM, RH, Orchid and Mr. K. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> here you guys can lecture me, I LB-ed and not being understanding etc...I am not as bad as Blah complained...AMM, thanks for being there for Blah when I was such a pain to him...he was not respectful of me either..it takes two, I am not a tigress and I am indeed with much aloha in me, except Blah feels that I am always nice to everybody but him...
need some lecture here huh...anyway...I have to get going but we are doing fine, so far so good.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It is a long way...thanks you all.
Wangi

Oh, I suspect you can be a tigress when you want to be. I know I certainly can.

You can begin to use reason to reign in the LBs. It's not that you aren't "right," whatever that means, it's just that you won't get what you want. What you want is some sort of peaceable household arrangement.

Even in the moods where you think blah is a great, big, fat stinker -- now you are living together, you might as well be peaceful about it.

Geez, I know it's hard. It was hard at me last January. When I remembered how utterly selfish and inconsiderate he had been, I went nutso... but something my H never was was humble and repentent. He really didn't "feel" he'd made a mistake. Blah does. Try to remember that. Get Blah to remind you. Maybe if he can just affirm, "Yes, I know I was a stupid jerk...now can we move on?" That way he could acknowledge what you are feeling, but also remind you that going back and revisiting that empty field, on which nothing will ever grow again, won't help either of you.

Wangi & Blah,

I received a call yesterday while I was in the midst of 'soaring over CA' and when I looked down I saw the GG bridge.....smoke was billowing from 2 spots in the city. Were they from your places? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh yea, the ride was at the CA adventure theme park.....but the phone call was from home. It seems that an MBer saw the same smoke signals......from another vantage point and couldn't get the MB brigade there quick enough. So she called H and after getting some info, he called me. Well I may have been 'soaring over CA' but it was only a ride......there was not much I could do from that distance and strapped seat with my legs dangling over the scenary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

They did what they could and I am proud of them. Now I want to be proud of U 2 also. Can I be, should I be? Of course, my feelings are not important here. Yours are and that of your respective spouse.

Let's see, there is hurt and anger on both sides. Blah, you have some ground to cover...... looks like you need some help on how. Wangi, maybe some coaching would benefit you. Overall, it looks like U 2 need some sound counseling.....work together to either speak with Cerri, Steve or Jennifer. We MBers here are available, even H is available.....gotta tell you that is a lot. Don't waste it.

I recommend U 2 put your pride aside, identify issues you both need to work on individuall and together, prioritize it equally. Allow tolerance margin and don't be sooo critical of each other. You are both going through withdrawal and depression thoughts.

Is it right for Wangi to be angry? Yes. Is it right for Blah to expect her to be understanding? Yes.

Can she do both at once? Probably not. I can't. So what is she to do? The best she can.

What is Blah to do? The best he can. He can hug her, hold her, tell her he loves her....if she gets angry he can absorb her pain. If you do that blah, in time her pain and painful episodes will subside.

How do I know this is possible? Been there done that.....like many others around us.

Aloha,
L.

My dear AMM & Orchid, you guys are marvelous,I am touched. I did not go on MB till last night,Blah was mad at me for not making decision about moving in or D..I was upset,upset that he picked on me on little stuffs like my hair(he does not like it,that was the whole reason I cut it!)or I did not dress up(he saw some woman with a one-shoulder top,short skirt..something that guys think "sexy"hence he asked me such question)I like to be casual & comfortable on my days off,I work in a firm that I shall look decent..whatever,
he used to think I was all "that" & now I am all
"this"...that kind of stuffs;plus he thinks I am abusive the way I talk to him,I know my tone of voice was not the sweetest & can be very sour to him...we were fighting back & forth,hung up on each other,called back to apologize..& I guess you know where our hearts really are..we do care & perhaps love each other,just too dysfunctional, living separate lives for so long when you know we could have save a lot of money & "worked" on the M etc..can't turn back the time.AMM, you mean
you can be a tigress too? I can't imagine that,I was just going to tell Blah how gentle & soft you are,are you sure you roar & bite too?Don't we all?
Orchid too? Oh no..we are just human(& humane <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I planned to move into an apartment that I can call "home",where I lived was just too tiny & could not do much in that pad & be depressed,I got a small place with less rent in the first place was "waiting" to go home(with Blah)month after month passed by,I decided it was time to move on,so I gave in notice early Aug,supposed to move out end of Aug..then I discovered the truth of the ugly A on Aug 10,& Aug 22 when Blah met the evidence! So...the final solution was to be back with Blah. We had a mutual agreement on Sat(after all his venting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> on MB)

He started his marathon training on Sat & Sunday,
he ran 30 miles in two days,he felt better,running
has always been his passion,he was not too keen in any of his passions during A..I am happy to see that I can support him in all his athelic goal
(like I used to,you know it is important to see part of my role as a W,though M is broken,I was lonely that way)He is on his way to begin his triathlon training. And;while he was running yesterday morning,I called & left a v/m on his cell that I wished for him not to nag on me having too much stuffs when he helped me moving..
he was good & didn't say a word,his anger on me having too much junks became BIG fight in all of our moves & became very stressful...last night was the first "quiet"moving though he was very tired,I was very please & very proud of him. He was also very nice about letting me throw away whatever I felt uncomfortable.."all" the bed sheets,towels,silverwares(Thank God he did not use the set that was our wedding gift)including the couch(we put an ad on the internet to give away for free,& someone came to pick it up,sweet!)
all these were done last night. I am sleeping on my little sofa bed in the living room,the bed is another thing that we shall discuss on getting rid of,it was the bed that I chose & love. I felt very uncomfortable anything that had directly used by other..I was please that Blah understand better "this"time. AMM,I think you helped him when he was so upset with me last Sat. It is true that he knows he was wrong,I should be merciful too. It was nice to hear that Blah would add me as another driver on the auto insurance..I know he is trying. Blah cooked dinner & felt like HOME again,we still have much to discuss,over all,last night was by far civil.

I don't know what to say but to be patient & kind & loving,merciful & understanding. I appreciate everybody's thoughts to help us. AMM,thanks so much for being here. Orchid,Please tell Mr.K that I am sorry that I did not feel like calling or be on the phone esp.when my cell phone bill was over 500 for Aug. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> When we do settle down,I shall call you both & invite you over for gourmet cooking ya. RH,let's see if we will be your first
"experiement" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I must get back to work now..mahalo.