FWW has gone back to OP twice since I found out about the affair 12/02. First time was a couple weeks after I found out ... she had called him and I blew up, told her to make a final decision, so she went to go see him to find out why he wouldn't tell her he loved her (duh!). We worked through that.

Second time was when I asked her to leave her job because that's where he's at. She called him and tried to get him to go to a movie with her ... again was told no ... so went to his house and waited for him to get home. He didn't make it before she had to go pick up the kids, so she didn't see him that afternoon. She broke down the next day, realizing there wasn't anything real between them.

Now I'm faced with this issue ... she isn't here because she initially chose to be. She chose to leave me, the kids, her whole family for this sleazy alcoholic.

Any suggestions on getting past this point so I can refocus on the M. My Plan A has pretty much died as well as the last of my romantic love for her.

Help!

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Zaed ]</small>

If your W does not show any signs of trying to rebuild the marriage then you may want to consider going to Plan B.

Can you tell us how long Plan A was actually active? Days? Weeks? Months? How well did you do Plan A?

Have you made some of your self improvements to a degree that your WW has noticed the "new Zaed"?

Are you love busting?

Are you meeting her greatest needs?

Are you more than helpful around the house?

What are you doing to take care of yourself? Exercise? Hobbies? Reading? Writing? Sports? ..... What?

You sound depressed .... have you seen a Doctor to treat depression?

Is your current attitude now as much as a problem as your WW's attitude?

Help us help you.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

OK Pepperband ....

Plan A active for 5 months before I started fizzling ... and I feel I really did well. FWW really noticed all of my changes ... dropped 50 lbs (now weigh less than at marriage) ... physical appearance MUCH better. Did well with other things ... communication, romance, domestic support, family commitment.

Maybe too well ... made her feel incredibly guilty.

Anyway ... she notices the new me. I may be love busting in that I have trouble with filling this one emotional need: openess and honesty.

There's the problem. And here's why:

1) resenetment - betrayed me within a few months of my sister being murdered ... just when I needed her the most. To her credit, for a while after that I could barely take care of myself much less her emotional needs. Sure she felt abandoned because I was in depression. but I'm still very angry.

2) since d-day - has basically tried to leave me twice. first time was within 2 weeks of d-day. tried to get OP to confess love for her but he never did and told her what they did was wrong. second time was when I asked her to leave job some 3 months later (that's where OP is). she called OP and tried to get him to go on date. he told her no again. so basically, she's not with me because she initially decided to be, but because she had nowhere else to go. that may be different now, but it's hard to get over.

3) I don't think she has revealed to me the extent of her physical relationship with him. it only lasted a few weeks, but from some comments and putting together the phone calls, etc., as well as the way she answered some of my questions initially, I believe she was much more involved with him physically. why would she hide this? probably because she knows she never really filled my emotional need of SF. I considered myself fortunate to have it once a month. and from what I can tell from phone records looks like she filled that need for OP many times within a week or two. she knows if she tells me everything it will be incredibly painful for me. I'm sure it will be.

Just need somebody to slap me around a bit and help me get my head straight again.

Hi Zaed,
What sticks out in your post is the missing trust between you. You dont trust her having revealed it all. She doesnt trust you to tell you, being afraid of your reaction perhaps? You dont trust her that she wants to try & stay with you, as you have well-founded suspicion that you're only her option B fallback guy as opposed to the person she really wants to be with. and so on.
In short, you need to bring all this to the surface and discuss. that's the only way to re-establish trust. both of you may find this incredibly difficult now - that's why many here suggest to go and see an MC where this sort of issues can be discussed in a "safe" setting.
N

Pepperband .... you seemed to ask the right questions ... I'm very interested in your opinion if you don't mind giving it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Need time to think. If I don't answer later today .... bump up to remind me.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Do you play chess?

It seems your marriage might be at a point of stalemate ..... no other move possible without putting yourself right in the line of jeopardy.

Let me be honest with you .... I am only guessing what I might do if I were in your situation. So take what you like, and leave the rest.

I would likely do this:

1. Pump up your Plan A to a rock 'n roll volume of awesome intensity for about 10 - 14 days. Around 2 weeks of just knocking her socks off. Make certain she realizes SHE is the woman whom you ADORE * HONOR * and DESIRE * . ("I love you" the phrase is all fine and dandy .... but the doing love activity is ever so much more powerful .... and sincerely saying "I ADORE YOU" .... really rocks womens' hearts)

2. Once you fully have her attention, and her available love units have been filled ..... I would take her away somewhere for a talk.

You must look amazing and smell amazing for this event. Take whatever good stuff about you physically, and show it off.

Driving on the way to the "let's have coffee somewhere nice and talk" event .... play some music in the car. Not something you'd usually play, just something really cool and a bit different for you to choose. Driving on the way to get "coffee and talk' you can pass the time in the car telling her about the new CD, why you chose it .... what it reminds you of .... a bit of personal sharing on your part.

3. Be sure you've pre-selected a coffee place, or a restaurant where there is some privacy available. Once your order has arrived..... you share.

Make it clear to her that what you are sharing is all about YOU and YOUR feelings and YOUR needs. Do not stray one inch into her character, her lazyness within the recovery effort or her feelings. Stay away from her feelings .... if she expresses feelings (either negative or positive) just confirm that you heard what she said. Nothing further.

This is not to push her in any direction.

This is to allow HER to see and hear the authentic YOU .... how you are leaning and what you are thinking about. Lean toward her when you talk, make a gentle smile on your lips, and if possible, lightly touch er arm or her hand frequently as you share....

I will make some guesses here:

"I feel saddened that I am missing the physical closeness we once shared."

"I see your beautiful body and I am full of desire for you."

"Having sex with you has always made me feel emotionally closer to you."

"I feel a distance between us, and I don't want that distance. i want more intimacy."

"I feel lonely when we don't make love."

"I do not know what you want me to do sometimes, I wish I could read your mind, but I cannot."

"Sometimes when I am in the shower, I cry because i miss our intimacy so much."

"I want to open myself up to you completely, but I don't know if that feels like something safe for you."

4. After awhile, tell her you that you very much appreciate her kind ear and her listening to you. Tell her you'd like to make a regular date for this every 2 weeks.

Compliment her on "being there" for you to share.

5. Drive home singing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep



<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

OK .... now back to the chess game.

YOU have just placed your wife in the stalemate position! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Any move she makes after this , you "win".

(OK don't anyone even bother to tell me *marriage isn't game playing Pepper* ... I know that, you Dorks ... this is a metaphor to help Zaed, so shaddup <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Actually .... you both win.

If her response is soooo far off the mark, that "offness" at least gives you information. And you might want to change your goals. Too soon to tell though.

This is a good way for you to demonstrate to your wife how being open and vulnerable works. She might begin to feel safe with you doing ... and she wants to open up too.

My cat has het big furry butt on the keyboars sorrry

Damn! You're good!

I actually have been thinking along those lines already ... just talking about it has helped me to get back into Plan A mode again.

Just took her out for lunch ... doing a bit of the love diet approach. She really seemed to relax. And have also been thinking about approaching her and telling her .... 'ok ... you know I have difficulty sharing with you, but I really want us to get past this and I know I have to be completely open with you to do it...'.

However, I would probably have gone off into my deeper issues ... the three I mentioned before. Your approach seems more subtle. It wasn't about me asking her to share, but showing her how to do it. A much less confrontational approach and one I need to adopt because she has anger control issues. She easily could have been a defense atty ... no offense to any out there!

So a question for you then ... it seems I am not there to ask her to share anything, but to motivate her to. Are you saying I shouldn't ask her about her other 'activity' with OP?

Also, I'm having some trouble with 'desiring' her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> She wants the romance, but doesn't want to put anything into it. She wants to be 'wanted' all the time, but only have sex when she feels like it. Frankly, I've been sexually frustrated our entire marriage and am tired of playing the chump there. But I guess I can try it again.

Anyway ... what do you think about me wanting to know more about her physical relationship? I don't think I'm obsessing here ... I just want her to to be completely honest with me no matter how much it hurts. And I also want her to have as few private personal memories about OP as possible ... think it makes it harder to cherish them (following the idea of how affairs generally die when exposed).

What do you think?

I think you should take all your questions about her physical relationship outside the marriage into the GYM .... and i think you ought to "ask" the punching bag what he thinks about it all.

Give that bag holy he!! .... anytime you think you need to know the details ... go hit something inanimate. Beat the crap out of your pain and insecurities.

You will have Popeye's muscles (musk - kels)

When you have her opening up emotionally to you (cuz you showed her it was safe) .... you will be having sex .... better than anyone else .... trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you want her to move further away from you emotionally .... go ahead and ask what his [censored] was like .... she will shut down, and you'll be meeting Master Bates in the shower again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> .... oops ... crossed that line of good taste once again.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />