You mentioned that alcohol played a part when you had your PA's, so is it possible that when you were sober, the emotional connection was simply not there? Could your story be a female version of the guy that goes to a bar, gets drunk and picks up a woman with which he later has sex with, but after waking up the following morning wonders what the hell happened?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why did I have affairs if I didn't really form a deep emotional bond with these men, to the point where I would've missed them after going NC? Why didn't I go through withdrawal like so many WS (FWS) who post here?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen do some reading up on "intimacy avoidance affairs". I think you will find there is a strong possibility that you were motivated to keep a certain distance from your spouse or steady fellow. Odd that you have intimacy with someone else in order to avoid intimacy in your current relationship. But that is often the case. A deep fear of taking an existing relationship to a deeper level often motivates affairs. Why depends on the parties in the relationship but look into that it might answer your question.

TMCM, that may apply to my most recent A, b/c I was drunk both times I was intimate with OM. However, the previous "affair" (I put it in quotes because there was no sex), we were stone cold sober for many of our meetings.

stunned-dad, I will have to pull out my Emily Brown book and read up on affair types again, thanks for the suggestion, it sounds plausible. Here's the short definition of it from Brown's website:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affair Intimacy Avoiders are frightened of getting too close, so they keep the barriers high between them. Conflict is one barrier, affairs are another. Their emotional connection with each other is through frequent and intense conflict. Often, each spouse becomes involved in an affair. These couples are the mirror opposite of the Conflict Avoiders. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen

Jen before this A, how many times did you meet with the pre-A OM? I ask because if those meetings were far and in-between then they may not have been enough to ignite the 'in love' feeling that a lot of other WS's experience. What say you?

Well, TMCM, I'd say I met up with pre-A OM once or twice a month for a few months. We also played cards online and chatted from time to time for longer than that, but we didn't exactly discuss deep emotional stuff. I sure as heck wasn't "in love" with that man, I felt sick the whole time about ever getting involved with him. I had much more of a friendship with the most recent OM. I think maybe the big reason that I didn't feel like I was in love with any OM was that I didn't take my A's to the level of numerous secret meetings and long conversations, talking of love and longing. We just had fun hanging out, and then it got physical, most likely because I had little or no boundaries, and gave in too easily to their advances. I literally told myself, well, if he made the first move, I guess I'll go along with things (even though I wasn't overly excited about going along with things!). I just really sucked at knowing how to say no. I honestly believe I had my A's in part b/c of my weak boundaries, and in part b/c some of my needs weren't being met at home.

Questionnaire - types of affairs

Well, I just went and did that little questionnaire (see link above) again, and oddly enough, it would appear that my A probably was both a "conflict avoidance" affair AND "intimacy avoidance" affair.

Now what? Yeah, I know, find the time to read the chapters on those affairs again.

Really, I think I need to focus on getting out of my M at the moment. (Although I also see the need to completely understand the reasons for my affairs, so it doesn't happen again.)

The more I think about it, the more I think I need to just tell my H that I'm done with the M, and want a divorce (and not ask him if he still wants to work on things). But if I do ask him if he still wants to work on things, I will look like a nicer person. Although, I then run the risk of him not actually wanting to work on the marriage (or have anything to do with me really), yet being too chicken to actually go through with it.

AArruughh. I wish it were just over already. It's over emotionally, that is for sure. What we have isn't a marriage anymore, it isn't even a proper friendship. I guess I just have to suck it up and go to him and ask him the necessary questions, or tell him the necessary things.

Any advice on how to talk to him, what to say, in regards to me just wanting the divorce already?

Jen

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Any advice on how to talk to him, what to say, in regards to me just wanting the divorce already?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well as a Californian, let me ask that question from our two front runners for the governorship of this laughing stock of a State I call home:

Arnold Schwarznegger: "Hasta la vista baby!"

Cruz Bustamante: "Yo quiero divorcio"(Taco Bell chihuahua voiceover).

There you go Jen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jen,
I got your email you sent me with your update, and you sounded so good. I was so happy to read it. I just got busy with work that day and didn't write you back. I still care though ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Anyway, I agree with TMCM's ideas on telling your H. At the risk of sounding non-MBish like, just do what you want to do already. Your boundaries were weak before, and now you want to change that. So you know what you want to do, just do it! You don't have to send out a telegram announcing to H what you want to do- you have made the decision- now go out and do it. I don't know why it would surprise him now that you are getting divorced. Sheesh, it has been over a year with little to no recovery, and it may be worse now than it was then. So bless your heart sweetie, pray about it and then DO IT!!

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

TMCM, you're always succinct and to the point, and a smart a$$ to boot. Thanks for making me laugh and grimace at the same time!

I took some time tonight reading over Emily Brown's definition of the different types of affairs. I can say with almost certainty that I am a classic conflict avoider. I really do avoid it at all costs. I had enough of it as a child, I got treated as my mom's counselor, and felt like a referee at times with her and my dad. I didn't want any part of it, so I avoided it! Little girl Jen spent more hours on her bike than you can imagine, just so I didn't have to be at home to "deal" with my "crazy" mom.

Part of me worries that I dove headlong into a relationship at age 17 with my H in the first place b/c it meant I could further avoid having to be around my annoying mom. Maybe I was in a hurry to marry and move out at 22 to get away from her too. Wait, not maybe, that was the best part of getting married, besides getting to be married to who was, at that time, my best friend and the man I loved.

As I read the descriptions of the kinds of behaviour that conflict avoiders display, it totally describes my H and I.

Conflict avoiders tend to feel strong resentment towards their spouse, but supress their feelings.
My H and I would generally suppress our feelings, not talk about them much if at all, and then blow up every so many months at each other over something we were dissatisfied with (for example my H's great discontent with my lack of motivation as a housewife).

I didn't talk to my H very much about my feelings (well, this progressed over the years, I know I talked about them a lot at first), because he didn't really seem to care to hear about them. It irritated him for me to talk about them. (Most recently he said annoying things like, "You're more beautiful when you're quiet.") I remember early on in our relationship if I told him that I was upset about something in my life, he'd go headlong into trying to tell me what to DO to cure my upset. I had to tell him that maybe I didn't want him to give me advice, but to just listen and love me, give me a hug, that's it, not heap more stress and pressure on me by telling me "you have to do this to fix the problem that's upsetting you."

We were that couple that everyone thought was a model couple. We avoided conflict, so we looked so content. Really, resentment was building up inside, and coming out in bizarre hurtful outbursts. My H screaming at me because I didn't do my share around the house, him adding a close female friend to his life (much to my upset), me having affairs, etc.

His immediate solution to finding out about my affair was to choose a divorce. He had to have an immediate solution. Upon disclosure, and with increased emotional conflict and discussion, he ran, he moved in with one of his female friends for a couple weeks. When he moved back home, but continued to spend his daytime hours away from me but with the female friends, I chose flight. I decided, hmm, this is going to take a long time for him to calm down, I don't want to watch him spend his days with them and then come home at night asking me for sex that I don't feel like giving, etc.....SO I got on a plane and flew to Australia with my best friend.

He asked me to move out, I readily did so, to avoid having to live with him and go through all the associated conflict and pain.

Again, as I read some of the stuff in that book by Emily Brown about affair types, I know that my moving out and our subsequent complete separation for 3 months (no contact) literally killed our chances at reconcilliation. We both bought into it b/c it meant we could avoid conflict.

My H hasn't wanted to have anything to do with me for the most part in the past year b/c he doesn't want to deal with his family knowing we're interacting - more conflict avoidance.

Heck, I think I've had one fight with my FEMALE best friend of 16 years....

When my H and I see each other, and we get to talking he either wants to leave, drink alcohol (and copious amounts of it), or have sex. He doesn't want to talk about the tough stuff, our feelings, etc., even though I have wanted to for months, and even try to, but tend to get roars of silence or verbal attacks in response.

I could go on AND ON and bore you folks to tears with my examples to prove I and my H are conflict avoiders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> (Well, maybe I already did that? lol)

I guess what I am truly wondering is if anyone else has figured out that they and/or their spouse are/were conflict avoiders, and what you've done since then to change so that you have healthier marriages and relationships in general.

Also, do I not sound like a conflict avoider? Stunned-dad, what do you think? (You seem to know a little something about this stuff.)

Deep thinking Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

PS: Oh my, I'm avoiding telling my H I want a divorce by putting it off, aren't I?

PPS: HECK, the reason I put up with my H having his close female friends is b/c I'm a conflict avoider. If I was a he**-raiser, I'd have kicked both their behinds years ago, and had my H to myself as things should've been. I'd have told OM, "No, I don't want to sleep with you, I love my H." I let him have sex with me to avoid having to get into conflict with him about me not really wanting to do "that".

I wish there was a lightbulb gremlin here somewhere!!

But now what do I do?? (Aside from stop adding to this HUGE post? lol)

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen:

Is a duck's butt waterproof??

Of COURSE I'm a conflict avoider! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

Hey Jen

A couple of things I wanted to say.

You asked if Pound Man had self esteem issues. At first, I had to think hard about that, and thought, no, not really. But the more I thought about it the more I thought that under a polished surface I think he probably did. He had a very poor upbringing. His Mum was widowed when he was only 3 and she had 4 kids under the age of 11. Money was tight and then her 5th kid was born with Downs Syndrome. Nearly 40 years ago, that was a big thing.....

Photos of him as a kid show a scruffy urchin, and I say that in the nicest possibly way (boy, being nice about Pound Man!), and it really affected him and how he is now. He is always immaculately turned out, and exceptionally tidy. How he looks really defines him in a lot of ways. And I think this is about self esteem - having to look a certain way is very important to him.

Jen, I can tell you, I am certainly not a conflict avoider - gobby probably describes me well!!!!!

I do think it is important you understand why you had your A's, but I think it is more important that you have made a decision about your M and stick to it.

I think you just have to bite the bullet Jen - ask him to meet on neutral territory, and just tell him - you know your M isn't going to work and for the sake of both of you, you want a divorce. If it makes him feel better, give him the option to file the papers.

I'm sorry that you've come to this decision - I truly hoped you'd be able to work things out, but I honestly don't think it's going to happen. Your H has shown no signs of wanting to make it happen and Jen, as I said, there's a whole big world waiting out there for you.

Take care and keep us posted.

Lisa

I tend to view conflict avoiders in the same light as intimacy avoiders.

Here is why intimacy is an intense emotional state. Geuss what so are conflicts.

Why do you think some of the best sex occurrs after making up over a huge fight?

I also think the mental makeup of a conflict avoider is so close to intimacy avoiders that its not surprising to find you are both.

What I have read is that these personality traits are quite common when as a child they lacked a nuturing environment.

That lack of emotional nuturing leaves those persons ill equipped to deal with strong emotions. Lack of a loving mother/father would make powerful feelings of love seem unfamilar to you. In fact you might find the strangeness of this new emotion scary. Which sets you up to avoid it.

Your lack of boundaries might in reality be conflict avoidance. I can only imagine but it must be hard to have to be the one in a sexual situation to have to say no. And to be exposed to constant pressure. Giving in is a form of conflict avoidance. But unfortunately from the male standpoint it only increases the push for sex not satisfies it so we go away. Its funny my wife gave into her sexual predator and I asked her what she felt the first time they were together. Besides the obvious guilt/shame she said she felt a sense of relief that now that he got what he want he would leave her alone....odd from a male standpoint but interesting to see that similar attitude to a lesser extent in your post.

Hi there Lisa,thanks for your post. Forgive me for my foolishness, but what on earth does "gobby" mean??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My H is exceptionally tidy too, and is very concerned with his appearance as well. When he was a little boy, he was the oldest of five, sort of got put in the caregiver role at an early age, maybe didn't get as much nurturing as he needed. Also, he was an overweight kid for many years, and I'm sure that hit his self-esteem hard.

Indeed, I hear you about needing to bite the bullet, and get it over with. It won't be easy or pleasant no matter when I do it, so I may as well rip the band-aid off already. He won't want to file the papers, I know that, he is afraid of change, avoids stuff like that. I realized last night that one thing he said to me SO many times this past year when I tried to talk to him about the affair, our emotions and real relationship stuff, he'd always answer, "I don't know what I think, I refuse to think about it."

Also, I already filed the first set of papers, so I don't think anyone has to file them again, even though I told my lawyer to put things on hold, it's just a matter of filing the next set of papers to finish things off.

He won't have the balls to meet on neutral ground. He hasn't had the balls to be seen in public with me in the past 15 months, except at his father's funeral. I will have to go to him to get this over with.

stunned-dad, thanks, you posted some more thought-provoking stuff. You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also think the mental makeup of a conflict avoider is so close to intimacy avoiders that its not surprising to find you are both.

What I have read is that these personality traits are quite common when as a child they lacked a nuturing environment.

That lack of emotional nuturing leaves those persons ill equipped to deal with strong emotions. Lack of a loving mother/father would make powerful feelings of love seem unfamilar to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mom needed me and my emotional support and counselling, much more than she cared for and encouraged me, a LOT of the time. My father NEVER hugged me or told me he loved me (but did spend lots of time with me). Think that fits the lack of nurturing description?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your lack of boundaries might in reality be conflict avoidance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, that does sound quite believable. I say yes to things I really didn't want to do, just to keep the peace, and not upset anyone, but at my personal expense. This extended from me taking on too many extracurricular responsibilities at work for years, right down to having 3 affairs. I've gotten a lot better at saying NO in the past year, and knowing that it's okay to say NO, and I'm much happier for it I must say.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mom needed me and my emotional support and counselling, much more than she cared for and encouraged me, a LOT of the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow sounds so much like my wife. Her mom drug her around when her father was having an affair. She leaned on my wife when she was just 12 to 13 taking her to spy on her dad and the OW. A needy mom that returned little.

This conditions you Jen to do what is expected of you.

I am willing to bet that you have the capacity to compartmentalize things. Indeed I am willing to bet you can disassociate yourself from sex at times if need be. By that you probably had sex with your husband out of duty and thought nothing of it whether you wanted to or not.

This makes it oh so easy for you to be vunerable to an affair. Why? Because you can disassociate yourself from your actions...not consciously but still its an early on learned behavior.

My wife because of her sexual abuse once told me she wish could take it off and throw it away referring to genitals. And she said she only gave OM a thing not her heart.

You see she learned early on to dissassociate that part of her sexuality from her personality by necessity.

Jen in your mind you probably minimized these affairs in order to better cope with the reality of them. Minimizing is a skill learned by sexually abused persons but also a skill conflict avoiders learn as well. Minimizing (at your expense as you put) makes it easier to avoid conflict. If something is minimized then you don't feel as bad about compromising or giving in. Makes your caving in easier to swallow because you tell yourself I didn't really cave because the issue was no big deal.

I felt great sorrow and pain for my wife when she realized that she had minimized her abuse even denying one clear cut case of forced rape by her boyfriend and one of his boot camp buddies. Her high school sweetheart and fiancee none the less. But years later when she was first starting in therapy she said she didn't think he really meant to hurt her or things similar to that. When she finally let everything out and became self aware she flat out said "how could someone who was suppose to love me rape me." It was a huge step away from minimizing the pain someone else inflicted upon her.

Hey Jen

You know I had a laugh with the "gobby" thing. Of course, I believe we're all speaking English, but Lisa-isms are fun things, although people here would know what I mean. Well, gobby, big mouthed LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I've never had a problem speaking my mind and sticking up for myself if I felt I needed to even if it means getting into some conflict.

It's funny, but I was just talking to Brit's Brat about esteem issues, and she's reading a book and she says what I was saying about X sounds very much like someone with esteem issues. He has to be in control of the way he looks and what sort of an image that creates, but inside, he's still that scruffy little boy. I almost felt a bit sad for him.....

Well Jen, if there aren't other alternatives around the DV issue, you actually sound like you've got some balls even if he hasn't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know how hard it is really I do. To be told by X that he really didn't care for us to get back together, I knew there was no alternatively.

Funny, I saw a good friend of mine last night who I hadn't seen since Christmas. She said that DV obviously suited me as I looked fantastic like a babe magnet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It was lovely to be told that, especially given all the difficulties, and you know what, perhaps being single does suit me and maybe it will suit you too Jen.

Keep learning about yourself, and you know how far you've come so far, and that journey doesn't have to stop.

We'll all be routing for you Jen whatever you do.

Have a great weekend and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

P.S. Me, out with a friend tonight, Cuba info day re the bike ride tomorrow pm, and then round to see my new "squeeze" in the evening. Single life isn't so bad..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I so wanted to write a thoughtful reply, but I have sucked it up, called my H to arrange a meeting, and he did call me back.

Mr. Avoid-Jen-and-thinking-about-her-or-our-marriage did NOT want to talk, did not want to meet, his plans for the day were to hide out in bed actually, but I talked him into letting me go over there to talk IN PERSON rather than on the phone like he seemed to want.

So I am off. If you read this, I would really appreciate a quick prayer for emotional strength, so that I do stick to my guns, and don't let him manipulate me any further, and I can get some certainty out of him about the next step in the Dv process today.

Will post again later with an update,

Jen

Jen,

My best thoughts are with you. For some reason I am very drawn to your posts.....I assume sometimes that it could be because of all the similarities (young, no kids, conflict avoider, H who isn't sure he wants to work on the M, me being remorseful for my A)...or maybe it's just because I empathize with you so much....

Anyhow, I am wishing you all the strength in the world today. Good luck, and best wishes!

stunned-dad, thanks for your insightful remarks again. I feel like I've really gained some new insight into myself and my H in the past few days with all this talk about conflict and intimacy avoidance.

Lisa, thanks for teaching me what you meant by "gobby", lol! I'm trying to work on my "gobbiness", that's for sure!

Lost in tx, thanks for your kind wishes too! Hearing that your situation has so many striking similarities, I will have to go back and learn some more about you soon (maybe I can offer you some insight too, who knows).

Well, I went, I saw him, I spoke to him. I carefully outlined how:

1) he's tried to tell me that I am not a priority in his life, he doesn't care how I feel, and doesn't want to be with me (but foolish eternal optimist Jen has chosen to ignore this);
2) our relationship hasn't been a marriage or even a proper friendship for over 15 months;
3) I can't go on like this any longer, us living separate lives but still married...

SO let's just finish things off already. I brought up the topic of the amount of money he would need to pay me so that I'd sign off on the house. I asked him if he'd want to pick up the papers himself or if he had a lawyer he'd want things forwarded to.

Now throughout most of that, he had VERY little to say in response, other than, "if that's what you want, then fine, go ahead, and then send me an email telling me what to pick up and what to sign."

Then I said yes, that's what I want, if you are sure that is what you want too. I pressed and asked him if this is what he wanted. I was not surprised to hear him reply that our relationship and me were at the bottom of a big pile of problems he is dealing with in his life. He went into some problems that 2 of his brothers are dealing with: one is facing a grandfather who is refusing to pay for his university education, after the same grandfather paid for 6 other grandchildren; the other is extremely depressed and almost suicidal. Oddly enough, those aren't actually his problems, but he takes them on as almost his own. He says people expect him to be there as a source of support to them. I said yeah, but you have problems of your own, and they don't seem to realize that, do they? (I think that seeped through his tough shell, and he saw that I cared.)

From there, I expressed concern for both of his brothers too, and then I suggested I would leave, but my H came over towards me and said, "I don't know if I should hug you or strangle you." It ended up being a hug. He asked me for just one more month. He said he really wanted to try, to just give him one more month. I said fine.

And that was it. I left shortly after that (we discussed some mail that had come for me, had a long tight hug, and I was on my way). No mean remarks, no big attempts to lay guilt on me.

So I don't know, maybe him seeing that we're at the edge, and that I am ready to move on without him will finally force him to take notice and think about things, even though he always says "I don't want to think." Actually, I looked him in the eye and asked him if he would use this one month to actually THINK about things then, and he said he would.

After all my resolve, that hug sure felt good, he still is the man that I've loved since I was 17 (even if there is a huge emotional distance between us at the moment) and if we can BOTH do the hard emotional work together, we can perhaps make it together still. (Gee whiz, there's eternal optimist Jen again - where does she come from in the midst of all this conflict and intimacy avoidance?)

However, I am NOT going to reach out to him at all during this one more month time period. No calling him, emailing him, or going to see him. I didn't say that to him, but that's my plan. The full version of the divorce busting 180 list.

I'm still ready to just file and finish things if he isn't up for doing the hard work of recovery together. I still have huge doubts he'll find it within himself to do that.

In the grand scheme of things, what's one more month? Not much. A fairly reasonable request. It's also one more step towards me feeling like I've done everything I can.

I know some of you will likely think I'm a fool for letting him have this additional month, but I'm okay with it, for now.

Jen

(edited b/c I hate it when I punctuate things wrong!)

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

No, Jen, I don't think you are a fool. Just a woman who would really like to save her marriage if at all possible. Best of luck to you!

Almost

I think you did fine, Jen.

Your strength is showing. He can see that, if he stops wallowing in his self-created misery for a moment, that is.

One month sounds like a good idea.

-2long

2ble

<small>[ September 07, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>