Actually i don't think they are off topic if you really read through it.

My Java gulping buddy 2muchcoffee is a recovered addict (Kudos by the way if I never said so) and that makes Harley's thesis on affairs as addictions very easy to understand.

Sufdb I don't know as well but he is very, very, very effective at helping you rethink assumptions. It ain't a bad thing to have a few voices like Sufdb to make you think it through.

Personally I think they are both right - I don't like to call my affair and inability to grow a spine initially and end it an addiction. I feel like that is too close to saying that my selfish behavior was beyond my control and as it turned out it was not - once my head was dragged from my [censored]. TooMuchCoffee was once PHYSICALLY addicted to a drug, an illness - somewhat akin (in my mind) to having a disease for which he can't be blamed - which is why I don't like the affair==addiction analogy. I don't like it because frankly i don't believe that I can blame it on addiction. An alcoholic realizes he/she can't drink AFTER the fact. A WS knows damned well that to screw around on his/her spouse is wrong and does it anyway. Note I am not bashing WS's - I was one.

Sufdb, am I reading you right? Your logic on this makes me suspect that you are also a FWS who is not willing to allow the responsibility for your own affair to fall anywhere but squarely on your own shoulders?

Anyway, good thread you two - sometimes as time passes your persective about the affair changes and along the way it doesn't hurt to re-think a little.

Bottom line? Whether an OP is akin to cocaine or an incredibly wrong and foolish choice there is no difference in the end - leave it the hell alone. Whether you leave it the hell alone because you should or because it no longer appeals to you is interesting but secondary - leave it the hell alone and figure out why later.

2MuchCoffee - Suf made me wrestle a bit the other day too which annoyed me initially until I found he'd nailed me on a point that helped me do some re-thinking.

Sufdb - you're a pain in the rear - I like that in a friend :-)

Mean,
I know exactly what your goin through. I too have the perfect marriage, but still ended up having a EA with my highschool sweetheart.

Believe me, it happens. I read the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass; It helped me first to understand that any marriage whether good or bad is vulnerable to an affair.

Give yourself and your marriage a chance and if things don't work out, then you can say you did all you could. And the only way, you can do this, is for OM to be completely out of the picture. Believe me, I thought OM was the "one" too... I never understood what "fog" meant, but now that its been 4 mos since I went nc... I now ask myself how could I have done this? I am a good person, brought up in church; have difficulty lying and never thought I could be so deceiving.

Hang in there, whatever you decide to do. If you go nc, it will be the hardest thing you will ever do. But in the end its worth it. Keep posting, we care and are here to listen...

MJ

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: MissJ ]</small>

DIR while I hear what you are saying about me and sufdb hijacking this thread with our debating posts, I hope that you can also understand that we are trying to help meandqctbe's rational side get control over emotional side. These forums are also to help support folks both emotionally AND rationally to do the right thing for their particular situation.

Sufdb beleives that an affair is not an addiction because under different circumstances it would be considered a normal relationship and because it sends the wrong message that the WS is helpless and powerless to stop it. My viewpoint is that even under different circumstances an affair is still an unhealthy relationship because many studies have shown that even when an affair makes the transition into a 'normal' type of relationship that its lifespan is much, much shorter than a relationship that was not started on lies and deception. I also hold the same view as Dr Harley's in that an affair is an addiction BUT that said addiction doesn't absolve responsibility from the WS to seek help to end the affair IF s/he doesn't want his/her marriage to end in divorce.

If you go to any rehab center and talk to any of the professionals there they will tell you that the first step for an addict to start recovery is for him/her to accept responsibility for his treatment because they can't do it for him/her. And the same applies for a WS in an affair who wants to end it.

I think the issue of what to do about an affair (end it) and how one goes about that has been pretty much fully aired....perhaps those who make decisions more emotionally can find the addiction model useful....for those who need reasons for things, the rational issues are probably helpful (and should be compelling as well)...in any event fortuitiously, both approaches reach the same conclusion, the mental/emotional health of anyone in an affair is best served by ending the affair, and properly dealing with the issues that made the affair possible.... be it personal shortcomings, or marital dysfunction....which cannot happen at all until the affair ends.

.... I feel like that is too close to saying that my selfish behavior was beyond my control and as it turned out it was not - once my head was dragged from my [censored].

sufdb...Graphic, and coarse, but indeed my point.

....Sufdb, am I reading you right? Your logic on this makes me suspect that you are also a FWS who is not willing to allow the responsibility for your own affair to fall anywhere but squarely on your own shoulders?

sufdb...My logic is one is always responsible for everything that happens in ones life, and has the power to change/recover it. No one comes to these kinds of discussion without bias. I have experienced the neglect/rejection a bs feels (although not as a classic bs), and I have experience with letting a friendship become inappropriate... euphemistically referred to here as ws. I was responsible for both circumstances. I live my life accepting responsibility for everything that affects it......if I stay out till 2am and get hit by a drunk on my way home....that is MY FAULT, I know there are more drunks on the road at 2am...etc. etc. I refuse to ever consider myself a victim in any sense of the word, it is an enormously debilitateing life strategy. It has been suggested I was "preyed" upon, blah blah blah, I find that insulting in the extreme, feel similarly about any characterization of addiction. There were of course consequences, some unexpected and severe, and much regret, such is the nature of life experiences (usually)...I have chosen to learn from this, restructure my life, be aware of my co-dependent leanings (as a no boundary giver), and make the best of things...despite a concerted effort by some to derail that process...but anyways I digress.

....Sufdb - you're a pain in the rear - I like that in a friend :-)

sufdb....Hmmmm, thx, get that comment from time to time. My goal is to drill past illogical, or unsupportable assumptions, and encourage people to think past their biases, and I seek to do so as well....the truth is out there. (but not always obvious).

Thanks Everyone for your replies and support. I always get something out of everyones posts.

MJ...Thanks for your post..good luck with your NC and..so far..ths is the most awful thing I have ever experianced. My big challenge right now is falling back in love with my husband. He is a great guy and I do love him..but, not in the way I do OM. I want soooo badly to feel about him the way I do about OM. Any thoughts on that one? I do know for sure that I have totally shut my husband out since I met OM. I have given all of myself to OM and basically distanced myself from my H. Maybe I should start by giving him the attention I gave to OM. Any clue as to how long it takes to not constantly think about OM? I guess all people are different. Of course, I feel like I will never be over him.

DIR...Thanks again for all your support. I would really like to join you in ladies chat tonight. I will try to log on. Exchanging emails might be a great idea. Hopefully, we can help each other in times of weakness.

Meand,

This is a no brainer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Since you shut your H out, exactly how would feel love for him? I would sort of have to be like one of my sons who tried extensive experiments in alternative learning skills: homework under the pillow, at the bottom of his backpack, under his basketball shoes, in his locker at school. It seems his abilities at remote sensing are rather weak given the grades that resulted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I would think your remote sensing abilities are rather weak as well.

So with that thought in mind I would like to quote a very level headed person "I am thinking of giving him the attention I gave the OM." Excellent advice and I hope you take it.

Meand, there is a reason that people say that love is a verb and NOT a feeling. The person you bestow the most love on is very likely to be the person you love the most. So I think you have answered your question.

As for how long? It is hard to answer, but I would expect that if you do as you recommended, that you will start to see an amazing response in your H AFTER HE GETS OVER THE SHOCK. He will start to love you back. Then as you get through withdrawal, you will see things in your H you hadn't seen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You will be amazed how things change if you continue NC with the OM, focus on your H, and work your way through withdrawal, which is a royal pain, as you are finding out.

So take the sage advice that you received in your post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> None of us could have offered better.

Good Luck and God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Any clue as to how long it takes to not constantly think about OM? I guess all people are different. Of course, I feel like I will never be over him."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't get hung up on how long it will take to not think about the OM because you will sabotaging your efforts before they even begin. Instead, try to get by one day at a time and celebrate each day you made it, and even if you do screw up and contact him, don't beat yourself up and just dust yourself off and try, try again. Keep in mind that before anybody succeeds at anything, there are probably more failed attempts behind her/him than s/he can count. Many FWW's here will tell you that it took quite a number of failed attempts at NC(no contact) before they were able to finally succeed. So like old Nike commercial once told folks 'Just Do It!'.

Hi Mean,
Just remember, right now you are going no contact right?. I like to compare it to an alcoholic who is going cold turkey. They think about the drink, all the time, smell it and can even taste it... thats withdrawl. It gets less and less with time. But you have to work at it. And it seems thats what you want to do right now. Getting radically honest is part of that program as well. And that is making amends to those you hurt from this. For me, it was my H and my child. The first thing I did was talk to my H about it. What I did, why I did it, and that I was truly sorry. But, the worst part is I was in love with this man and it hurt me to have to let him go, but that I didn't want to be with XMM, that I wanted my life and family back. It was eating me up and the more secret I kept it, the more it hurt me and our intimacy.

It was awful. On the one hand I needed H so much. I wanted and needed him to hold me and tell me everything would be alright. But he couldn't becuase he had no idea what I was going through. And because of that we had lost our intimacy. H and I had always been radically honest with each other, even if it hurt. We always dealt with issues together and thats what made our bond strong. When I broke that bond, by having an EA, it did eventually tear down the bond. And i think thats where you are right now. Telling him everything was very difficult. On the one hand he was dealing with his own emotions, and at the same time trying to help me. I in turn kept reassuring him the whole time that I was in fact deeply sorry and would do anything he asked of me even if he wanted me to leave. We committed to staying together. We wrote a no contact letter together and send it to OMM. I then, put a block of OMM's email, changed phone number, cell number and worked throught the mental blocks I had to put up when those OMM thoughts would come.

I think the whole process of working your marriage out and letting go of OMM is a whole emotional process that is necessary. For me, feeling everything and talking about it helped me begin to heal. Going through them "TOGETHER" is the goal. At least it was for us. We continually picked each other up. Things are really good now, and I feel so much if not closer to my H. Our marriage is even better than it was before. Our sex life has picked up again, we cuddle all the time, and we can't stand a night without each other... So, yes, you can get it back for you H. I'm not sure that the way I did it is the way for you. But, thats how it worked for us. Have you told your H?

Anyway, sorry this is so long.... I hope this helps some. Also, everyone is different, what worked for me, may not work for you. It all depends on the circumstances too. Mine was an EA where no sex was involved. I think if there is sex involved, that hurts worse and it takes longer to get over. Shirley Glass talks about all that in her book "Not Just Friends"... I think reading that book saved my marriage. After reading about re-building intimacy, that actually gave me the courage to come clean with my H and to continually do things to make my marriage strong including exercises she uses to keep your mind off OMM. Thats the hardest part, those thoughts, dreams, etc... will haunt you. I still think of OMM, but not as much. It fades with time and getting your control back feels so liberating. I never thought I could get this far, after os many failed attempts for the past three years it came down to this.

I hope your better today......... take care and hugs to you!!!

MJ

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: MissJ ]</small>

Meand--where are you?? I want to know how you are doing?? Please post of come to ladies chat. I'm thinking of ya!

Blessings!

Hi DIR,
I tried several times to join the ladies chat last week and it would not accept my user name. I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I have not posted because I am all screwed up again. I would like to talk to you soon. I will try again to get on to the chat. thanks so much for asking.

Meand--
I'm there now--go to this site and just put in meand and hit login:http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

DIR...
I am so sorry about tonight...I really wanted to chat with you. I totally forgot that I had plans with three of my girlfriends to go out tonight. We had a really nice time and it helped to just be out with the girls. Hopefully I will see you on tomorrow night.

DIR...
I am so sorry about tonight...I really wanted to chat with you. I totally forgot that I had plans with three of my girlfriends to go out tonight. We had a really nice time and it helped to just be out with the girls. Hopefully I will see you on tomorrow night.

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: meandgctbe ]</small>