My update.

What is my update? What is my plan? I don´t know anymore. I don´t know whether I have even one tiny litte love unit left on my love account for my WH anymore. Maybe it really went bankrupt. I gave this everything. EVERYTHING. I don´t think there is anymore. If there is I will be suprised.

I feel tired, worn out, mentally drained and need to get my energy back. This OM is fulfilling my EN. Listening, supporting, caring. Fulfilling my needs for SF. Oh yes, it goes two ways, no doubt about that, but it goes two ways with full acceptance of the fact that we are using each other, regaining our self esteem, self confidence, our zest for life again. He is not a bad guy. Not at all.

Is it a quick fix? Maybe. But whatever it is we are as honest as possible about it. Who is he? His wife is on her death bed. He has been hanging in there nurturing her for two years. They have the funeral planned. It could be today, next week. On the inside we are two very sad, very weak persons in alot of pain, but on the outside, look like two very strong, determined, "everything is together" kind of people. No wonder we are like magnets. Our intuition and understanding for each other has a magnitude that I have not experienced before. We are both grieving a loss, together hanging in there...

Am I in plan D. Maybe. I have so little hope and faith. I am trying to find my hope and faith again, trying to hang on to the last shreds of my own sanity.

There is life after. I´m trying to figure out what kind of life there is. Am I weaving a web for myself that I won´t be able to get out of in the long run. I don´t think so.

And yes, if my WH was to ask if I am seeing someone my honest answer would be, yes, I now have a friend and a "lover", who is helping me find my way. Is it long term. Most probably not. I am actually not in love. My feelings towards this man and his feelings towards me are more caring and more based on friendship than passion. Its the root of our friendship that has the stronger pull. Our friendship is the soothing medicine for both of our wounds. Its weird. I have not tried to have this attitude to someone before. Imagine having your very best friend, but the caring goes deeper, so much deeper, on all levels.

Or is this just another fog, that I need to wake up out of. Oh, I think I am so clever. I think I know it all.

I know nothing.

This was not very cheerful now was it? Just being honest.

-queen-

Oh, Queen.... I'm hurting for you and for this man right now. Please, I know it's hard, but please end this relationship. Neither of you is in a place where you can create anything healthy. I know you're acknowledging it, but it still feels to me like a very damaging thing to be doing. Please, end this relationship and focus on the healing you need to do.

And this man... oh Divine, the pain he must be in right now. Please, I know you think he needs you and he does need SOMEONE. Not you, hard though it may seem to you.

HELP!?!

This is all going too fast for me to keep up anymore. I need help from you to do things in slow motion so I can keep up with my own emotions.

You all know I moved out 4 weeks ago. It was so exhausting, painful - I thought I was about to fall into a deep depression. I got really really ill, whilst having the kids and the little one getting ill as well. WH did not care less and was not there for me in any way. This is only 3 wks ago. I felt that he drained the last love unit I had for him. I still feel that.

2 wks ago I went on a dinner date with my e-mail friend. The one who is in a "sorry" situation. Don´t get me wrong, he is not a sorry wimpling. He is a very strong and very courageous man, that has shown his wife and his family (and continues to do so) ALL the nurturing and caring that can be given in a very tough time in their lives. He is a man with his own business, but that prioritizes his family at all times. Even though he and I have made a very strong connection, we know that right here and now, the only thing we can relate to each other with is our friendship and the openness and honesty that goes with it.
Call it an EA, even though we have ventured into the physical aspect of it when we said goodbye.

We continue now as supportive friends and he has helped me to realize who I am and what are the things that really mean something to me. He is the first man to "see" me and knows by instinct what I stand for.

You have to understand, outwards I look like a high society party girl - designer labels, travel abroad, gourmet food, socializing with the important and beautiful. This is how I am perceived. But deep down, the most important things for me are very simple; a walk in the forest hand in hand, sitting at a beach, throwing pebbles into the waves, watching my kids smile, helping my friends find their way to their own personal happiness, talking to my family. These things are the REAL me. NOBODY, and I mean any man that I have had a relationship, has understood who I am, and I know that I give mixed signals because I am very cautious in opening up. I have opened up to my WH many times, but he chose to ignore the real me and concentrate on the "other" me. My new friend has touched the real me from day one, and knows what the "other" me is all about too.

O.K? With me so far.

Well, my new friend has helped me understand that there are people out there that can care for me as a whole person, not just a bit here and there. He has helped me build my self-esteem, I stand stronger. We said goodbye, but it did not work. We have agreed to be friends, because we contribute good to each other. There is nothing destructve, no demands, no expectations, just plain simple care.

Since last Saturday I have been feeling "hunted" by my WH. I have Plan B´d him almost to perfection (a few side messages here and there, but mostly about kids). Since Saturday he has sent me mails, called kids, sent text messages - bombarded me.

Monday morning I received a mail.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hi my dear,

Please reserve 28/11 - 1/12 in your calendar... And you need to inform your work you wont be there as well (if you want to that is...)

Kiss WH </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I answered him back that I´m sorry but that is not possible, besides my brother is flying in that weekend so I also have other plans...

He then writes me back, that I should really reconsider, because he has already bought tickets to NEW YORK! (I´m in Denmark, remember!)

I
My friendship with this other man is not an issue at all here. There are no ties. The issue is whether I want to even try. The issue is that if I do give it the last chance (and then my friendship with OM will have to subside, as my WH would probably feel very threatened), do I believe my WH is sincere at all...

Has ANYBODY out there had it like this. Please?

-Queen-

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

Oh and just got a reply to the New York mail, which goes like this;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Dear Queen,

...And I did this for us (and to show you I want to share exciting and special moments with you my wife)...

But I guess I will have to try to get them to change the ticket for somebody else :-( Or just go alone!

WH</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This REALLY makes me think whether he is sincere or not.

I´m sorry but I think this is a load of babble.
Am I right?

-queen-

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

Queen, it sounds to me like he's testing your boundaries to see how serious you are. He's smarter than most -- he's testing with honey instead of sticks, but he's still testing. No promises and he wants you to go to Newe York with you? That's a lovely offer, but it's not what you want and you're right to turn him down.

I suspect that as you continue to say no, he'll get ugly and start making demands and things. Stay the course!

queen of..

OUCH>...!!

fell off my chair reading the email from the teenager attempting to barter for what he wants from you....

I was hoping New York could do this for us!

translated...new york will be sooo much of a distraction we can have great sf when we get caught up in the excitement and never really discuss anything or resolve anything....

The point is I really miss you, and if we could agree on some terms your ULTIMATUM might be the solution for us both

some terms EXCEPT the part about giving up other WOMEN all together...he doesn't quite see the value in that part...

but I need to know where you are, how you feel, what you do, why you have done the things you have and why you do the things you do...

tell him to re-read the plan B letter again then ask him how does he get so far in business if he can't grasp the simplicity of the plan b letter and what is expected of him... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
ok lb I know..!!!!

fog remains present with zero-zero visibility...

ark

Hi Queen

From the mail you quoted he is trying to manipulate you. Its always better to catch flys with honey then viniger. Keep doing Plan B. If you have a saved copy of your Plan B letter, I would just start sending him a copy of that anytime he sends you email.

As for your OM, I would send him a NC letter. You wrote to the OW that you no longer wanted to be in the triangle, but you've formed a square. You your WH, OM and OMW. Your OM should be consintrating on his W. And, if your still working on your M even in Plan B your energy needs to be on that. If need be after sending your OM the NC letter block his address.

Just J is right, your WH will probably start using a stick. You need to prepare for that.

Stay Strong,

Wow, this struck me too

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The point is I really miss you, and if we could agree on some terms your ULTIMATUM might be the solution for us both - but I need to know where you are, how you feel, what you do, why you have done the things you have and why you do the things you do... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He wants to know how much you're willing to put up with. And then telling you he'll take someone else... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Oh my!!!

The fog is thickest before it lifts? Lets hope so.

I think you can pretty much count on him knowing that you've been seeing someone else, and now he's scared he can't come home. And he's trying to get you to same place by threatening he won't come home. Part of Plan B is also getting used to the idea he may not come back...seems like you've been doing a royal (pardon the pun) job of that.

I agree with ark...I would simply reply "Refer to email on such-n-such date."

Boy is he testing you....this is a good sign. She's not giving him everything he needs. He's missing you because you gave him more than she does...

You are the whole package.

Now...the part about how you were never understood by your WH. How is that going to change when/if you reconcile? Back to the status quo? Or is it time for Queen to show her true self and give WH the option to bow out ("This is who I REALLY am and if you don't like me, then please save me the hurt and move along.")? I guess in one of your emails to him you could mention about how you're learning about yourself and who you really are.

And about the OM...please see the fog for what it is...he is in the right place at the right time. He sees you this way because this is the you you're showing right now. He's M too? His W will need to know too. And don't beleive what he tells you about his R...probably his facts are a little lopsided.

Well, I've just spent about an hour reading this entire thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Queen, your "journey" certainly has been a twisting and turning one!

The only advice I have at this juncture is to write WH a one-line answer re: the invitation to NY.

"What about OW?"

That's really the crux of all this, isn't it? Is he ready to meet the criteria necessary for rebuilding the M?

Take care of yourself.

Queen,

I agree with the posters above. But I will add something. I believe your WH is trying to find a way home...to see if it is possible. Go to the thread of "Want My Wife Back" and see what I wrote him a few days ago. About the process of the WS during Plan B. He is now testing the waters. He is now seeing, since you are dark, what is there. He wants the cake eating, the fence. He DOES NOT want to lose you.

I too started talking to someone while I was in Plan B. I too started feeling like I was done with my wife. And it was at THAT point, that she came around. she even found out the first night she came by that I was having contact with someone else.

The point here is this. First of all, if you dont want the marriage...then end it. Then other men will be available (but NOT other married men!). But if you have one inkling that this might be him pulling his head out, then you must first go NC with your OM.

Now, what do you do with this trip to New York, and other stuff. Do not go! You are in Plan B. But, I am suggesting something a little off the track here. I have written on this before. It is called the transition period, and you can go back to Mimis threads from a few months ago to get the jist of that. But, in the transition period, the WS will be feeling things out. Where are you? Do you have someone else? Is it still possible to get back what they have destroyed? And so on.

If you stubbornly stand in the corner and stay completely dark, they might take that as a yes, I am gone. But, you are in Plan B. So what do you do?

Set up a meeting with him. Sit down face-to-face. That way, he will see the sincerity in your eyes, and in his. Then, you tell him again about the PBL. You tell him again that until the affair has ended, that it is not possible for you to do anything like New York. That you must protect yourself...and more importantly, your love for him.

Tell him the truth. Tell him you are beginning to pull away. Tell him that you feel that it wont take too much longer and you will not be able to recover this. Tell him it all.

Then calmly end the dinner and tell him that should he end things with the OW, agree to counseling, and agree to the Harley plans for recovery, that you will entertain the idea of going away. The Harleys even suggest that it is a good idea to go away for a couple weeks early on in recovery.

Tell him that it is not over, but that it is getting there. That this marriage, this family, and everything to do with it, will now depend on him doing the right things...and showing you how much he values you. He must understand that it is him that must do this.

But dont lie to him, Queen. If you are done with this marriage, dont make him go through all of this, just to kick him out. If you dont want it, say so. If you are not sure, then I would say that you still want it. You will KNOW when you dont want it.

He will pressure, make demands, and put everything on you. Dont you do it. Put it LOVINGLY right back on him. He HAS to do the work...otherwise he will fall away again and/or you will not trust his sincerity.

I believe this is a good sign. He is at this point, just as he said, because he misses you. Let him know that you are still there...right where he left you. And if he wants you, then he will do what it takes to come get you.

YOU are worth that. And he needs to know that again.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

Oh, Queen - if these emails are real - you've got to send them in to some contest or something for: Can You Believe They Could Say Somthing that Stupid????? You would win!!!!!! Or should I say - he would win the award for saying the most stupid things????????

Keep them around for a good laugh!!!

And keep your chin up - you are doing a great job at replying!

My favorite quote of his was this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and like I told OW lately I also need to take care of me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But the one about him "running out of energy" was good too!

DB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you should ever find the energy and love for me you have claimed to have - write or call me - but dont show up... Right now I will rip your head of since I really think you have proven what as arsehole and ****head you are and have been... Your latest actions so much resemble the way you have treated me for years - so maybe I shouldnt be surprised!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would take his word very seriously on this, (ooops, sorry I had you confused with Queen of a Broken Arm) especially since he has already broken your arm.

This man is sick, sick, sick....RUN! I think he trying to see if he can still manipulate you.

Susan

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

If you're in Plan B, then do NOT read his emails (this is part of the NO CONTACT)(perhaps briefly glance at it and see if he ended his affair).

Do NOT respond to his comments.

Hi Queen

I grabbed this late but...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now I have the feeling you are breaking some of our mutual promises - I have the feeling you are seeing somebody new and that you have opened your home and maybe even our kids to that person. Maybe I am wrong - but since you have choosen silence - your actions leads me to that conclusion. Am I right - are we that far from each other now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Say again???? Isn't he the one that started not one but several A's thru ur M??? Has he ended it??? So WHO IS THE ONE breaking some of our mutual promises ???

Sorry this just poped to my eyes and made me really angry. He still wants to manipulate you... and reading the following after this, seems JJ "saw" the future?

Keep strong Queen!!! Take care

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: matilde ]</small>

Okay, Queen, I'm going to dissect YOUR e-mail. Forget his; we know he's in a fog and can't be helped much at the moment. So let's look at you.

And before I dissect it, I want to say this: DON'T SEND HIM E-MAIL. No calls, no letters, no nothing!!! You're in Plan B, so STOP CONTACTING YOUR SPOUSE.

Was that enough of a 2x4?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dear WS,

What part of the last 9 months do you NOT understand?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an Angry Outburst and also disrespectful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was it...
1) The first 5-6 months, where I put myself through mental hell to get you to realize how much I loved and cared for you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not telling him how you feel and asking for changes in his actions. You're trying to make him feel guilty enough to punish him into doing what you want. YOU chose to put yourself through that Hell. It's not his fault that you did that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To hope that you would see how much we had to fight for? To get you to STOP contact with this woman and put your time and effort on your marriage to me and the family we have/had?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not calmly, courteously, and respectfully asking for what you want. You're beating him over the head with all the things YOU'VE done that make you "deserve" an appropriate response from him.

That's not gonna work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2) The around 6 months mark where you shocked the living life out of me with your multiple affairs for YEARS, where I was very confused, baffled and devastated, not knowing whether to give up or not, because still having feelings for you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, you're attacking him for being honest with you. YES, these things hurt, but what's the message here? Sounds like you don't want to know about what's going on with him. Bad move. And you're still trying to give him a guilt trip. Yes, you've been hurt. So just say it. "I was confused, baffled, and devastated when I learned of your other affairs." See, that's not so bad, is it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) Or is it the last episode when I moved out and said to you...

a) I need to protect whatever there is left for you if there is even the smallest chance for us in the future. (I did not want to end up hating you!) Telling you I hoped it would one day still be us and I did not want a divorce?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, what was the goal, here, except to alleviate your own feelings by loading them onto him? All you had to say was, "Please don't contact me until your relationship with OW is over." That would be enough for ALL of this. Rehashing the reasons why is NOT NECESSARY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or was it the....
b) removal of myself from the hell triangle and have little/barely anything to do with you until there is no contact with OW or any of your affairs ever again?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you said this already. Once is really quite enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or is it...
c) the fact that I needed to and have begun to build my own life, take care of myself, learn to feel and know who I am, where I stand, become stronger, less needier... and give the best I can to our children...without you, ...because the more time there went with this scenario....the less chances there were for us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello??? What the heck are you doing, here? You're telling this man that you think it's over! If it is, then TELL HIM and get on with your life. If not, then don't make these threats because they WILL NOT WORK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will say it one last time, until there is NO CONTACT and you have proven it, then we really do not have anything to talk about, at least not in terms of us, my feelings or yours.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This isn't bad, except that courtesy doesn't usually involve YELLING, even via e-mail.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I NEVER invited this person in our life together. I NEVER accepted it during the last 9 months (or all the other women the whole five years) and I DO NOT accept it now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, I'm sure he knows all this, and the way you phrase it makes it sound like an angry outburst rather than providing information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will also not open my heart and soul to you again to just get it all trampled over with no empathy or respect for me as a person with others in the equation, BUT if and when they/she are/is gone and I do open my heart and soul once again to you, I also EXPECT empathy and respect from you for me as Queen the woman, Queen the wife, and Queen the mother of our children and you can expect the same from me towards you. Without empathy and respect, there is nothing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, that's not a bad sentiment, but you're still shouting it. All you have to say is "It is important to me to live in an environment where I am respected and where I am treated with compassion."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If and when OW is gone, you have proven it to me AND you are sincerely interested in finding a way, or just plain finding answers to what went wrong, you can come knocking at my door and I will open it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Urgh. You did all right until the "you can come knocking at my door" part. That's disrespectful.

Instead, "When I'm convinced that OW is no longer in contact with you, then let's talk about our marriage and our future."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot promise you that there is a way for us, but I can promise you that I will give it one last shot with everything I have got, for the sake of our kids and my own future, knowing that all stones were unturned TOGETHER.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good, though I might have worded it a little differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not naive. To do that will be one hell of a rollercoaster. Do I really need any more rollercoaster rides? Have I REALLY got the energy for it anymore? Do you? Well, maybe I just have more determination than you do. If you choose not to, well, thats your choice. I have given it the best I had in me and I can live with it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a disrespectful judgement and/or negative mindreading. You've asked the question and then assumed the worst possible answer. You don't know whether he has more to give or not.


Okay, ready for the next letter? Here we go!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First - there is nothing SUDDEN, about any of my actions. My speed and pace is "almost" still, and there is nothing you or anybody can say or do that can get me to jump right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a disrespectful judgement. HE thinks your move was sudden. Why are you questioning what he thinks? You can express surprise that he thinks that because to you it feels still, but you can't jump all over him for his perceptions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not need parties, New York trips, the rush and flush of excitement. You are right to know that I enjoy those things, but you are wrong to think they would give me any satisfaction of fulfillment right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, this is good information to give him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If thats what YOU are looking for short or long term, you are looking the wrong direction.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is negative mindreading again. You're reading things into his actions that may or may not be there. No matter how well you know him, you don't know what he's thinking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Second - I am no victim.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. Still, he's again given you valuable information. He thinks you're acting like a victim. In most situations, I would suggest that you follow that up with, "I'm surprised at this. Could you expand on what makes you see me acting like a victim?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Third - You are absolutely right, all trust is broken.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one is fine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And right now, I think I have said enough for a while. I have our darling children and myself to nurture.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Errr, GUILT TRIP. If you're going to end an e-mail, just END it. You're rubbing his nose in what he's doing wrong. I'm sure it makes you feel a little better, and it also makes him less likely to want to deal with you.

Whew. Okay, I'm done. And again, YOU'RE IN PLAN B. So don't talk to him at all!!!!

queen,

YOU GO GIRL!!! good for you!! I like your spunk!!

I actually thought your responses were direct, showed confidence and got your point across that you are not going to hang around and accept his excuses any more, and if he doesn't like it, then SO BE IT...

No matter what the others say here about the way you are handling things, the MAIN things to consider are this...

YOU ARE FEELING BETTER

HE IS STARTING TO WORRY BECAUSE HE SENSES YOU ARE LETTING GO.....

The stronger you present yourself to him, the more it will draw him to you...

Keep listening to what your heart has been telling you. You do not have to sit back and let him do all the venting and complaining about where the relationship went wrong. Now that he is seeing that you were not so happy with his behavior, it WILL and HAS gotten him to think....

As far as the "friend".. It is YOUR choice..
If having him for a friend is helping you to get back your self esteem, then you do not need any persons "permission" on this site. It is your life. It may work out or it may not, but you sound like you are finally coming to a place where you are tired of the pain and the run around and I for one think it is a good place to keep striving for....

Acting confident is very seldom talked about or discussed on this site, even though CONFIDENCE is almost ALWAYS what both sexes say is one of the most important things that ATTRACT the other sex....

You are sounding pretty confident in your responses to him, and in my experience,and study over a lot of years of what happens when a WS comes back, you ARE on the right track for him to come back STRONG, because you will not accept anything less.. Good for you...

I always tried to follow KEEPMV's advice. He seldom posts but when he does it is right on target!

It is so true about the importance of developing self-confidence. It has been clear to me that my FWH continues to find my newly-developed sense of self, developed during PLAN B, extremely attractive.

I have also noticed ,as KEEPMV has reminded me, the importance of making him realize how other men are interested in me. He does not want to admit to his jealousy but it is there! I think men must like the challenge. Also, he must want to feel that he has captured someone of value. I tell him things ON PURPOSE now. For example, yesterday I told him how my dr., on an office visit yesterday ,complimented me on my shoes. He questioned me about what the dr. said this morning while he took the time out to polish my shoes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's starting to be predictable.

Q,

I think you need to keep your responses short, very short and sweet. Don't teach him anything. He needs to talk and you need to just respond enough to know you have read his response.

He is reaching out and in a sick way, he is asking to come back. But his current condition is not safe for you so don't drop all and run to him. Nope, he needs to come home to his family on their terms not his.

As for his troubling babbling (sad and anger phases), don't respond to it. Don't teach him anything (said again for emphasis not being senile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

You could respond, like: Yep, me too. Or Ok.

He is saying he needs you, may even be telling the OW that. Imagine what kind of LBing that could set the OW to do!!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So you need to be short and sweet. I would respond if you were in plan B because it is respectful but the less you say the less he can pick on you. Remember he is wacked out so he may take your words and twist it into a dagger, all the more reason to be short and sweet.

You'd better read, "love must be tough" by Dr. James Dobson. Then come back and post.

hugz,
L.

I always tried to follow KEEPMV's advice. He seldom posts but when he does it is right on target!

Thanks Mimi,

Yes, I followed your situation and thought you did very well. Your confidence was a big key in your situation and a very important reason that he came home.

I have found that many people on this site are not open to any other ideas or methods than Plan a or Plan B... Even though there is MUCH evidence that there are some other things that not only WORK, but work quite well. Instead of asking themselves if what I say really makes sense, they want to argue with it if it has even a hint of something that could possibly go against something in the Harley ideas.

I am sure some of them want to say things like."then why are you on here?" or," this is a Marriage Builders site" I ask back to them... Do you agree with EVERYTHING and every idea that Harley has on every issue? I don't. That doesn't mean he does not have some good ideas. I am just not going to blindly follow those ideas if I have seen reality show me that there are other things I have seen to work BETTER....

I have been at this a long time, and am not in a crisis, but actually in a very good, loving relationship. I have studied and researched almost anything I can get my hands on of what really happens when a WS comes back.

People on here really want to believe that it is the Plan B with a good Plan A that is the thing that has the best chance of success. I believe that they are missing the mark on that conclusion...

Why? Because if it was all about meeting "needs"(plan A), then why don't they come back to you with a good plan A?..Why do they come back more often when you STOP meeting their "needs"? (plan B).. then when they reconcile and you start to meet their needs again, then why do they start having withdrawal?

In my studies and research, I started to view REALITY. Reality is just the study of what REALLY happens and not of what I want to happen or what I FEEL about issues. I saw more and more that the BS who is successful almost always had come to the point where they had convinced the WS that they had let go and really did not care one way or another what happened. They had stopped all pursuit and pressure, they had developed more self esteem and confidence and were actually behaving more like a WS does. Also, another common thing that I kept seeing again and again is that the BS had a "friend" that they were interested in , which helps even more to let the WS PERCEIVE that the BS has let go... Once the WS has that "sense" that you may have really let go,it releases all the pressure to make the relationship work, and almost like a suction, they drift back toward the BS. Once they start to come back toward the BS, the BEST thing the BS can do to prevent "withdrawal" of the WS from the OP is to start to use the methods that the WS was using that caused the BS to panic when it happened to them. Telling them things like..."maybe this was for the best, and I now see that I was not happy either, and I am not sure what I want right now,etc. etc."

You need to make them go through the same pain you went through. Why? Because it is the CRISIS of losing you that gets them to WANT to do the work necessary for the relationship to work. They do it because of the pain, just like you did. Most people do not have the confidence and self esteem to hold back and allow this to happen, so they go through months and months or even years of trying to get the relationship back on track.

I tell them there are other ways that work just as well if not better, and FASTER.. (nope they don't want to even consider anything else)(closed minds)

If you sift through the threads of most of the WS on this site who are trying to get back with their spouses, study what their partners have done. Did Jen Browns BS do a plan A? Did he do a plan B letter?.. I did not see either of those plans in his efforts. Why did she want him back then, even though he has NEVER tried to meet any of her needs.. What about Hopeful Person, or Diamond Girl? Why do they want to come back even though there has been no Plan A or Plan B or meeting of "needs"? Not only that, but they STILL want reconciliation and have actually been rejected time and time again...

You see, nobody wants to consider that maybe there could possibly be other methods. Check out Mortarmans thread when his wife wanted to reconcile. My opinion is it had less to do with Plan B and MORE to do with she started to "sense" he was letting go. If you go back and look at the threads he wrote, it really did look like he was ready to move on.(he also had a "friend",even though he does not think that was a factor, I DO)

I say to study reality and do what works. Reality shows me that it is the perception of letting go that is the catalyst. Plan B does help that because as time goes on the WS starts to wonder if they have gone too far. That is why Plan B works...