RECOVERY! Day 1 - Marriage Builders® Forums

[ March 15, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Queen

Thanks for the faith in me...I dont know if I am the expert...but I do love Plan B! That being said, I am sure others will step in to help also.

From what you have written here, you seem to be turning the corner. You are in Plan B, after doing a great plan A. Of course, finding out about your WH's repeated affairs was a huge blow, and catipulted you into Plan B. Did your LBs during this time hurt things? Well, LBs do always hurt. But in this case, I am not sure that they did a lot of damage. I think he knows that you "losing it" was an appropriate reaction to finding out just how deeply you have been betrayed.

Your WH's actions are typical. Go to my thread that I had during the end of Plan B Mortarman's Plan B . Also look at Mimi's website, as well as Now What's. All of these show WSs in the death throes of their relationships with the OP. Your WWH is following the script.

Now, to the question at hand. First off, you sent a PBL. Good. That tells him that you still want this marriage, but no longer on his terms. From now on, it will be on yours. And if you wrote it close to what is recommended by MB, then it was done in a loving way. So, he knows the way out of his "hell."

Now he wants to talk. My wife also tried to talk to me. On that thread I listed above, I go into how she just showed up one night and wanted to talk. She wanted to find out things, to tell me that she was beginning to see things clearly. Was she ready to come home then? Not quite. But she was in what I call the transition period...between Plan B and recovery.

I call this the transition period because the WS is still in the affair. But now they are seeing things clearly. They see the Op for who they are. They see their spouse again in a positive light. They KNOW now that they have to make some very tough decisions. It is now, typically, that I have found that WSs get into counseling with earnest. While in the A, they believed they had done nothing wrong. Now they know they have. You see, now they can see all the questions, and most of the answers. The problem now is actions.

So, did I allow my wife to talk? Sure. We sat and talked for 4 hours. Did I participate? Well, not like you might think. I let her talk. I let her tell her story. I let her explain why she was there. I let her ask questions (which I gave very concise answers to).

I liken it to surrender negotiations. The "enemy" is now feeling out you to see if that PBL is stil good. To see if they will be harmed once they surrender. Many times they try to negotiate their way back. But if you are doign a good Plan B, then the negotiations are not going to happen. The PBl spells this out. So, while I was in the conversation with my wife, I would continue to push her back to the PBL, all the while, answering her questions.

Want an example? Okay. At one point, she was asking me questions about my life and what I had been upto (during the previous 6 weeks of Plan B). I told her that wasnt the issue, and that I wasnt going to discuss my personal life with her until she had committed to the terms outlined in the PBL.

At the end of our conversation, she asked me if I could just be her friend while she went through this and ended things. My answer? "I am your friend, and your husband. I will be there for you, once you have no more contact with the OM and have started counseling." You see, she was trying to negotiate, to cake eat...so she could slowly get out of her A. I stuck to my guns, gave her the answer...and then she walked out the door.

Know what happened? The next week, she was calling my house 3-4 times a day, wanting to tell me about a sunrise she just saw, or crying and saying she needed to talk....and more. I had been tough on her. I had shown her that while I allowed her to have that 4 hour conversation, I never got off message or gave in one little bit. And she RESPECTED me for that.

Now some on here will say that Plan B is no contact, and I agree. But I also know that there comes that time where the WS needs to ask, needs to hear, what exactly they need to do. They need to know that you will be there when they make this move. It is a very scary thing. They know they have hurt you badly, and they wonder whether or not there will be retribution. They know they will miss the OP. A lot of pain ahead, and they want some kind of "guarantees" that their efforts thru the pain will be for something.

So, my call on this is to let him talk. View yourself as a general, and the enemy wants to talk surrender terms. So, you sit across the table, and you listen. When they are done talking, you push the PBL back across the table and tell them that there is only one way to surrender here. And if he isnt ready to do so, then show him the door. Dont be mean, spiteful, cuss...just stern.

And then wait. In my wife's case, that was all it took to reassure her that her husband was still there...that she could do this.

You have done well under difficult circumstances. If you feel that you cannot remain aloof, that you cannot keep from LBing, then dont allow him to talk to you. But, if you can keep that seperation, then let him talk and ask questions.

Then come back on here, and let's evaluate what he is doing.

In His arms.

Oh thank you Mortarman so much for your fast reply.

I will now wait for my WH to follow up on his need to have that "honest talk" with me and prepare myself to be - calm, gracious, kind, but at the same time sticking to my boundaries with firmness. It is not certain that he will follow up on it though.

I will read the posts you have quoted and come back here as soon as there is some development, either negative or positive.

a big cyberhug for your help(((((:-)))))

-queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

I think I am panicking a bit in my Plan B. I sent a message to my WH this morning to hear if he wanted to have dinner tonight to spend time with the kids.

My stomach is really aching and this morning I was at the toilet trying to vomit.

Is this normal? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am afraid that by being distant and withdrawn to him will make him back out. I mean the problem with our marriage was that I have always been emotionally and physically distant towards him because of childhood issues. Doing the same thing is just lovebusting don´t you think?

Would appreciate some wise words here...

queen

Okay Queen,

I am going to use a padded 2x4 on you here.

Right now, you are NOT in Plan B. Your counselor said that you need to limit the time on Plan B...the problem is that you have not even started it. He came over and you sepnt time with him. You saw him in the cafe and went to talk to him. You now have asked him over for dinner or out to dinner.

Queen...that is Plan A, not Plan B. Plan B is NO CONTACT with your husband. None, zip, zilch! After reading your situation, I believe that you need to be in Plan B. The problem is, you haven't done it yet. If you dont want to go to Plan B, then dont. But, your WH shows every indication that he needs Plan B.

Is it scary? Sure. Could it jsut push him away? Yeah, that could happen. but guess what? If Plan B pushes him away for good, he probably was never coming back anyway.

Plan B has a very limited time of opportunity. If you back off of it too many times, if when you back off you LB...he will not respect you nor believe you.

So, the question here is...are you going to go to Plan B? You talk about being upset and vomiting. This is EXACTLY the reason why you should be in a REAL Plan B. Then the rollercoaster will not have you on it, making your stomach upset.

So, the question still remains...when are you going to go to Plan B?

In His arms.

[ September 05, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]

So sad.

Some people are by choice monogamous, but slip up and find themselves involved in an affair. Once caught, they work their tush off to never have another A ever, ever again. This falls into the "BIG mistake" category of affairs .... in my opinion.

Then there are others, who have made a "life style" choice. Their commitment is to not getting caught ever again. When caught, they will do and say whatever it takes to win back their spouse, because they really DO love their spouse. Once their spouse is back in their pocket .... they may, once again, make their choice to continue to have affairs .... because it is their chosen life style.

If you are married to a person who choses that life style, you may never have the marriage you want, but you might be "happy" anyway.

I am NOT talking about sex addiction ... but rather a life style choice made from a philosophical point of view that may be different from yours and mine.

This is NOT to say that you shouldn't try and repair your M if that is your desire ... but I do think this is a known risk you should be aware of.

You can accept the risk or not. But, this is a high risk situation for possible future affairs.

Pep <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

A good solid Plan B is very difficult at first. It is as though we are addicted to the S and can't be without them. It's a paradox our stressed minds can't comprehend that by letting go is the best way of a return to our M.
THe first week of Plan B is the hardest...to stay out of contact. Make him miss the kisses and conversations. He is testing you to see if he can still coax you into conversation when HE wants it.

I forgot, have you sent a firm Plan B letter? Do you have firm guidelines about when you'll talk with him (about children or after N/C has been established and proven)?

I know this is tough. I backpedaled the first few days (week?) but after I got down to it and tough and kept communication to a bare minimum, then my FWH got serious.

As far as a serial cheater, my H had on-line A's and had been asking women out all the years of our M. THis was the first time one said yes. We both know this is a possibility in the future, but this is part of recovery, we're dealing with it, and he is more open about his "opportunities".

I´m such a failure at plan B.

I have tripped and fallen so many times. The panic, the loneliness, the feeling of no hope, despair, anxiety, frustration of Plan B (when you STILL love your WS) makes it so easy to fail.

Weekends are the worst. My WH has been sad, in pain, looking like hell and I feel love and sympathy towards him. So what did I do? I invited him home to brunch Sunday morning. We then went with the whole family to see Disneys movie Sinbad. Had a great PLAN A family day. Everyone was smiles, laughs and cuddles. He hugged me, kissed me, told me how much he missed me.

I was sold. And then the BIG moment of strength was put at test. We tucked the children in bed and I went to get myself ready to sleep. He sat on our bed and said, I don´t know what to do, I don´t want to step on your toes, I would love to stay, but if you ask me to leave I will.

And the mighty queen, me, shrivelled to a weakling and said "I would love you to stay but lets just sleep in each others arms..." and the kissing then led to lovemaking and I was about the happiest person on this planet when I woke up, though I know that NOTHING has changed.

O.K let me have it. I deserve it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

-queen-

ONe of the KEY ingredients of Marriage Builders is honesty & truth.

Doing whay you say & saying what you do.

You wrote a Plan B letter and said you want no contact. The you turn around and, "invited him home to brunch Sunday morning. We then went with the whole family to see Disneys movie Sinbad. Had a great PLAN A family day. Everyone was smiles, laughs and cuddles. He hugged me, kissed me, told me how much he missed me."

In his mind you don't really mean "no contact" because you said it and then you don't live up to it.

Why should/could he believe you when you say you want to reconcile and you will work on having a better/more meaningful relationship?

[ March 15, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

You can do it...

I would think that every form of contact or every moment I talked with him was prolonging the time he stayed in the fog, was keeping him from waking up.

He will not pop out of fantasy until he feels he has lost you. It didn't seem real to my H until the time I told him I had enough, that I had worked too hard and I had given up. Then he was scared...

You see they think they can always come home. If you have another opportunity to email or talk with him you may want to mention you are getting used to living without him...so you'll be ready for whatever happens.

Beginning of Plan B day 2.

Stomach in a knot. If I could vomit I would. Normal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Very normal, grieving the old M. It wasn't a good M but what you're used to.

Now what? That's the fear...the what ifs may get you...

What if he doesn't come back?
What if he comes back but does this all over again?
What if this gets ugly?

And the answer to all this is...you'll deal with it as it comes...right now, take a break. Let this time be one where you relax. The ball is in his court. There is not much to do (just inaction, which seems even harder).

You can do this...you are doing it out of love...love for him, but most especially, love for you...and respect for the kind of M that doesn' allow infidelity.

Breathe deep and take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time if you have to!
I've been in and out of Plan B, it's not easy!
But I know it's the only way to spare myself more pain. It also helps me to keep my own anger in check! His anger only feeds mine.
So, hang in there!

Queen:
You have helped me so much by reminding me about getting back into Plan B after my WW surgery. I almost got sucked into chasing her again.

I have been in Plan B since the end of July. At first it was very hard. I kept second guessing myself if it was really the best thing to do. Letting go was terrifying, because I knew WW and OM would have unlimited access to each other. BUT I started to feel really strong after about a month and began to sleep well and focus on some things that I wanted to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The breaking of Plan B from my WW surgery, as you know brought back the same old pain and worry about OM winning and the hurt. But I briefly got to see the effects on WW. I could never be around her and not feel hurt, rejection and see that she was upset to have me around.

Last night at the hospital, I felt love for her and no pain. She was kind to me for the first time in over a year and seemed to enjoy my being there considering the circumstances. PLAN B WORKS! Maybe not at the same speed or the same way for everyone, but it does help you piece youself together into a stronger, more lovable person.

I wouldn't have believed that a month and half ago. I'm sorry I didn't listen to RH, TMCM, Star*fish and others about starting "B" sooner. It would have been better if I had.

A MONSTER hug for encouragment and stength to you and a prayer as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

DAy 4 starting...not much better with the knot in stomach.

Yesterday I was so angry at my WH. He is not just mistreating me but he is mistreating our kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . The five year old is beginning to react very strongly to all of this as she misses her daddy. HE doesn´t call, tell them when he will visit. Nothing. Nada. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She wanted to call WH this morning to hear if he would pick her up from school. I dialled his no for her so she called and asked him and he thankfully said yes. I messaged him then that if he wanted he could have access to the house and kids the rest of the day and I would come home tonight when the kids were asleep and just when he had left. He hasn´t answered that yet.

I wish that Harley could give more concrete advice on how to handle PLAN B when you have children. I mean I am in Plan B, have filed for seperation. WH is living in a one room B&B place. And the kids still need their mom and dad. How is it done, without rocking their security. I don´t want my kids to have to suffer any more of the situation than they have to. And they are suffering right now, no doubt about it. No matter what their has to be contact with the WS about the kids. If a Plan B is to take for eg. 2 years, it is simply not viable that the two people that care and love for the kids most of all in this world, can´t have contact about their well being.And should they have contact it is through a 3rd person??? This confuses me. I understand the effect of NC between just us spouses COMPLETELY, but I don´t understand it when one has children that have to be discussed. It goes against my understanding? Maybe someone could explain this to me?

I found a new apartment yesterday, but there is 20 people waiting to see it and its a bit small for our needs, but I don´t care, we could manage. I will meet on Tuesday with the owner and I PRAY PRAY PRAY, she will pick me and my children. I need to get out of this home and start building m own life whilst in Plan B. I´m also beginning to look for a new job. There is a position open in Tivoli (a fairground) as an event coordinator and I will spend this weekend writing an application.

I would LOVE to have that job. More prayers.

I´m beginnig to think in terms of MY future, standing on MY two feet. IF there is the slightest chance we ever get back together again I deny to go back to the marriage we had, where everything rotated around my WH. I want to be an equal in the sense that I can fulfil my dreams too. If we never get back again, then at least I have started to fulfill some of those dreams and maybe the strength I find in myself will make living without him easier. I don´t know, but I am throwing all my energy in changing my life to one I am proud to live, with or without my WH!

I hope I can hang on to these thoughts and by hanging on to them and taking actions for me, make Plan B more bearable.

Have a nice day everyone!

-queen-

[ September 12, 2003, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

[ March 15, 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

I would simply send the Plan B letter again, no changes, just highlight the part where "contact while still with OW = loss of love" and let those words speak for themselves.

It looks like you did a great Plan A!

Oh queenof..

please step back and look at that letter as a load of crappola....

Good God it is literally enough to make me cry..so you should go ahead and cry...then get on with Plan B...

self wallowing sanctimonious bs...

OK let it go ARK...

I'm with Kayla...I wouldn't even send the whole plan b letter..

I would send
contact while still with OW = loss of love.

period.

need to decrease right now your interactions.
even though it is difficult...on you and the children...
you can not go back to having such a disrecpectful person in your world right now...

he is an manipulator attemptor extriodaniarre...
but the key to this is that no body can be manipulated without first giving consent...
but he is good at trying to suck you in....

Can I forgive you for being as you have?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry you he sent this...but just chalk it up to foggy mumbo jumbo...because it really is..it is full of it...

peace queen of...
ARK

It almost sounds like he wants a rise out of you...

But, WOW, I have never read the confusin expalined so clearly!! He is waffling back and forth between his morals, what he knows to be right, and his selfishness. I see moments where he peeks out of the fog, then dips back into it.
I LOVE the letter as an example of the conflict a S goes through in an A. Half is baloney (please, I'm in love with two extraordinary people?...whatever, I think he's in love with himself...and not sure that is worth it...)

He has shown that your Plan A really worked. It reminded him about your love. And that was the first time he felt love for you? Please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> These WSs sure do have short memories...

I think he's waffling, and is also fishing to see if you'd be OK with sharing. I origianlly thought no communication would be the road to take, but that might give him the impression you're OK with what he wrote. I would write a simple statement like "Please no more letters until you've decided to recommit to our R and are having NC with OW"

Queen!! This is such an excellent letter to receive! Now, throw it away! ALL it means is that he's thinking about you. That's all you need to know. The rest of it is his own struggle with the things that are going on in his world. IT'S NOT YOUR BUSINESS.

However you choose to reinforce Plan B, go for it. Remember, these are extraordinary precautions for YOUR benefit! (And that of your kids.) You CAN do Plan B when you have kids, and I agree that there ought to be a whole lot more suggestions and advice and support about that. Perhaps I'll start a thread about just that.

In any case, reinforce Plan B, get your lawyer involved if necessary, and then GO BACK TO FOCUSING ON YOU. Job search is excellent! Spending time with the kids is great! Getting in your car and screaming your head off is fine! But whatever you do, DO NOT ENGAGE YOUR WH!!

And (deep breath) expect his contacts to become more angry and more desperate as he tries to force you to react. Stay strong, stay dark. You -can- do this.

Oh, and by the way, why are you reading letters from your WH, anyway? Think of these communications as Trojan Horses that come in through a gate that -you- opened. Don't do that. Redouble your defenses. If you get a letter, have someone else read it and ask you any PERTINENT questions that may need answers. (Like, do you mind if I take the kids away for the weekend in two weeks?) Have them edit out ALL the relationship stuff. The only thing you need to know about your relationship is when the relationship with OW ends. The rest of it is theory and your H's internal processes. Interesting to a casual observer, devastating for you. Stay out of 'em.

Queen,

Sorry I havent been around this week...a lot going on here. And I will respond more adequately probably Monday. But two things I read from your last few posts:

1. Kids and Plan B...go to my threads, expecially this past December/January. Watch how I handled that. Is it rough on the kids? Sure. But it will be rougher if things dont get repaired and their family on track again. Plan B actually makes things a little easier, because Mom isnt on the rollercoaster anymore and can be semi-normal most of the time. Your WH is messing you, and those kids. You protect them. He wants to live this way...then he can do so alone...do not let your kids think that this is okay. I dont mean for you to undermine your WH with them. But I do mean that you are to protect them as best you can from that "alien" until your husband returns. In the end, he WILL thank you!

2. Plan B is working. But, unfortunately, you arent at the end yet...just the end of the beginning. Go read Mimi's thread. This will take awhile longer. But the light IS shining in...which is good because it means he is still capable of seeing the truth and feeling guilt. But unfortunately, it isnt enough pain yet for him to do anything about.

So, as was said before...ignore it...at best, just send back the Plan B letter...and continue on with your life. When he comes to his senses, he will catch up to you. For now...back to the darkness...ignore his emails, use third persons for kid stuff (exchanes and exchange of info). Work on yourself. The rest will fall into place.

In His arms.

[ March 15, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

WILL SOMEBODY GET A BASEBALL BAT AND BANG ME ON THE HEAD WITH IT BECAUSE I AM STUPID,STUPID, STUPID?

He came back from football with kids and wanted to finish game off with son. I asked how long that would take, and he said not very long since he was not welcome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Said, thats ok, because I will go with the dog for a walk and shop for food. The 5 yr old then says, mummy aren´t we going to shop new clothes for us today, andI say well you have to ask daddy about that. He then looks at me and said, I haven´t touched your salary this month, can´t you buy what they need with that?

For info I work part time (20hrs per wk) and my salary can just about pay for other costs of living than rent. I just looked at him and said, I don´t know how he thinks I should do that.

I left, came back again, and had been crying in the car because it was hurting to see him again. I come in and he says, whats wrong, did you hurt yourself. A short no. I´m dead irritated about him thinking I could afford new stuff for kids so go upstairs and print out the excel sheet I started this month on income and expenses. I gave it to him and walked away. When I come back again he hugs me, and I say I think you had better leave now, because this is simply too painful.

He looks at me and says, aargh stop acting like a victim and I´ve had enough of you today. My reaction, this is where I should have STOPPED but didn´t. I said I´m not acting like a bloody victim, I wont be in a relationship with you as long as you are having an affair with someone else. He walked off and said see you Monday. I ask what about Monday, when do you want to see the kids on Monday. He would message me. So he walks off in total control and has manipulated the situation to his whim.

I need REALLY concrete advice here. This is how the next week looks;

Facts. I am living in the house, he is living I don´t know where. When he wants to see the kids all communication has to go directly from him to me. We do not have ANYONE to act as a intermediary. They are 3 kids, ten, five and two and handle it best when they are at home in a safe environment,they are quite a bundle to handle if you take them out anywhere, there needs to be two grown ups to take them out, because all of their needs are so different.

Monday - He wants to see kids. Where?
Tuesday - We are supposed to shop this new stuff for kids, he has not got a clue what they need and he will just buy what they point at. He can´t just give me the money, cause I know he is out of cash and will use his credit card.
How do I handle this so I don´t have to see him and get into a situation like today. I have to go dark, dark, dark.

Sometimes it feels like it is me that has also been pulled into his fog.

-queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Let him take the kids out alone, he needs to see how tough it is to be a "single" parent! You do it all the time, right? Stop protecting him from his reality!
Give him a list of the clothes they need, go out before hand shopping if you have to and list specifically what they need and where you found it! But actually, that seems like too much work, just let him go with a list AND the kids!
Maybe next time, he'll make sure he has the cash to give you!!
I had to stop letting WH come into our home. It was too painful, I keep a nice comfortable home, he gets his home and family fix, and then leaves for another woman! NO MORE!
He needs to live with the reality of his choices!! Listen to MortarMan, you are fortunate to get advice from someone with such great insight! It may be tough on the kids for awhile, but it's going to be tough if Dad doesn't come back either! So let WH figure out how he's going to parent these kids on his own! You can't make it easy for him!
Let him get a blanket and the monopoly game and go play it in the park!
Don't let him make you feel guilty. My WH is now doing that too! "You want me to see the kids more, but you won't HELP me out" WHAT???? Who helps me everyday! NO ONE!
It's tough, I know, you don't want to see the kids suffer any more than they have to, but you need to set some BOUNDARIES! Draw your line in the sand!
YOu can do it!

Wish I had some better answers, just know I'm thinking about you.

There will be backslides...that's OK, next time you see you, a simple "I'm sorry for my behavior the last time, I'm having a hard time dealing with the demise of our marriage." Then go on to show him you can calmly talk about topic, clothes, visitation, etc... Start the conversation with a declaration of what the problem is, "The kids need new clothes, about $$$$ worth, what is your suggestion?" said as sweetly as you can. After his suggestion you can both come up with a solution. IF it EVER gets to the point where you don't think you can handle it, then say, "I can't talk about this anymore today, next time, it's time for you to go..." And walk away into the other room until he leaves.

May mean that some things will take what seems like FOREVER to get worked out, but it will show him he can't try to push your buttons, you won't play the game anymore. He'll have to cooperate more if he wants to keep talking with you, even if it's mundane.

And that talk about how you're the victim? Darn tootin', and he's mad because you're "making" him feel guilty. Foooooogggggg horn going off.

[ March 15, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Queen,

I am in no way a PlanB veteran, yet I think that your PlanB is too lax. He is still a part of the "family" with his freedom to come and go as he pleases. I would no longer have the house available for his use. He needs to pick the children up and take them to wherever he is dwelling...to the park...to McDs...anywhere BUT the house. In regards to his tardiness picking up his son...You take your son...and blend in as any one of the other parents waiting for his tardy butt. If someone says something about why is he late...and look at you...let it slip that he has chosen to be with someone else and SHE must be keeping his from his responsibility to the team. That is just another way of exposing the affair. If some of the other parents say something to him..so be it.

No dinners at your home...no game playing at your home. Have the kids ready and waiting on the porch...tell him that you will meet him in the driveway..he is no longer to come inside the house. Hand over the kids...not one word from you unless it has something to do with the kids...or when to expect them back...or tell him what time YOU expect them back. Is there anyway to draw up a document outlining a parenting schedule for him? If there is, do that...and stick to it.

I do not think that it's a given that PlanB will last 2 years. It lasts as long as you decide. If, after 6 months you have had enough, then that's it. You do not have to endure 2 years of this hell on earth.

You really need to dig your heels in on this. When I read the letter that he sent you, I felt that he was thanking you for being ok with his pursuit of a relationship with this OW...that you will still keep your heart and your home open to him. I do not think that helps the situation. Cut him off....the children will survive if he goes dark for a while...it isn't up to you to make sure they stay connected to him. It is up to HIM...it is HIS responsibility to stay connected to them...it is not yours to make sure that it happens.

Again, I am not a oldtimer...nor a veteran of PlanB. I just thought I would send some suggestions your way.

Feel Free to Ignore any or all of them.

Committed

O.K its 8pm here in Denmark, and I´m off to try to have a nice time, have some laughs and relax. Gosh do I need it!!!! Picked out a sexy but classy black dress that my WH bought me in May for our anniversary and the shoes he bought with it.

So if I should meet them at least I will in his(and my)opinion look stunning. I know my friends are probably going to be dressed just a bit more fashionably relaxed, but I´m going out to get some positive attention for myself. Like the lóreal commercial says...because I´m worth it!

Wish me luck, I´ll be back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HAVE FUN!!! Or hope you had fun!!!

And I hope you didn't run into them...

Can't wait to hear about the comments you received and the guys that hit on you. I'll bet you looked FANTASTIC!!!

O.K

Gut feeling was 100% right, what is it somebody up there is trying to show me?

The story of last night

B4 I start, I have to say that you are going to be dissappointed in me again. I did not handle it like I should have, though I had mentally been preparing myself to do what was suggested.

We went to this club and the 1st hour was a ball. I got lots of positive attention and was having a great time. I´m sitting talking to a group of guys out partying a birthday, and my girlfriend says, your WH is here. I ask alone? She says yes.(she thought he was).

I´m kind of happy that I´m "shining" and he´s alone so 15 minutes later I casually walk around the club smiling and shining with a friend to scan where he is. I then see him, sitting at the bar with this blonde woman in his arms, stroking her hair.

I´m paralyzed to the spot(I thought he was alone and mentally prepared for myself for just that). I stand there 3-5 minutes just looking at them and can see that he will never notice anyone around him as he is so consumed by her. This hurts terribly.

I go up to him and tap on his arm and say; "hi, I did not expect to see YOU here". He looks up -shocked. She looks up - shocked. Then he says all of a sudden, well, now that you are both here you might as well say hello to each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I look at him and say angrily, absolutely not. There is no way that I am going to say hello to your affair as if I accept it. Then I walk off with a strong attitude.

I´m proud of myself. Hurting but proud. Go back to guys and ask the most handsome of them to dance. We dance. Then WH comes up to me and pulls me off the dance floor and says - I am so sorry. I did not know you were out tonight, you did not tell me. I just said smthg like well I don´t tell you stuff and you don´t tell me stuff. He then goes on saying that he would never ever have come there if he knew I was there. I tell him to just get lost, I don´t want to talk to him as long as he is involved with her.He walks off.

He then goes back to her and starts the hugging and caressing again. This is where it goes wrong and now I know what they mean when people do things because something snaps.

It just said SNAP for me.

I charged over to where they were, looked my WH in the eyes and said " I suggest you leave this place right NOW". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She says, we are leaving. I look at her and feel like " how dare she speak to me, when I am not addressing her". And I flip out. I get hold of her hair and pull her towards me and say I mean NOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I´m holding a beer glass with water and I throw it in her face and say again, NOW!. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> My Wh tries to control me and holds me up against the bar whilst holding me. One of my friends gets inspired by my water thing and pours a glass of water down her back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She then runs to hide behind a wall, waiting for my WH to follow and he holds me close into his arms and says - I´m so sorry for this. I push him at arms length and say to him;
"You have a choice, I am your wife and I ask you to stay, I have born your children and I have not deserved treatment like this. You say you love me and respect me now, and this is what I get? What are you going to do? Stay here with your wife or leave with her?

(of course I know he is not going to stay, but since I had caused such drama, I felt I needed to all of a sudden pull some strength in me and get him to face REALITY - here are the 2 women, who does he want?)

He then babbles...well, since I brought her here I have to leave with her and anyway if I stay we will just fight.I then say. I promise to not fight with you. Stay with me your wife or go with her. He says I have to go with her but its not my choice.

I look at him and say. WH, just go, you have made your own choice.

Well the rest of the evening was a disaster,I sat and talked with my friends and then drove home. Didn´t touch a drop to drink, even my water was wasted on her!

I was drained of all energy and dissappointed with myself for not acting more cool. It snapped. I just couldn´t handle it.And I have to tell you all for the record, I virtually NEVER lose my temper. I´m the kind of person that has a line that can get stretched really far,because I am so bad at setting boundaries, so I do get walked over and then I just bottle up the fume inside of me.I think I have snapped like I did last night once before in the entire 8 yrs we have been together.

This morning one of my dearest friends called me to hear how I was and I just broke into a zillion pieces and could not stop crying. She came to pick me up, and her and her boyfriend made pancakes for me, she cut and coloured my hair (she´s a hairdresser)and they just took care of me. Feeling a bit better.

My Wh sent me 2 messages.

1. Sorry about the whole thing

2. Hope you did o.k - I know you wanted me to stay, but considering the mood we both were in and the fights that was about to happen, I think my choice was the best. And NO- it was not a choice from me - but I will call later...love WH

I have sent him a short message back.

Do not contact me anymore as long as you are seeing that woman.

Now to the plan B, though I am not sure I have got any love left, so this might even be Plan D, because yesterday pushed me so much over the edge,it feels like it was the last drop for me to act like I did. I actually am pretty sure it is Plan D. I don´t think I can love him anymore. I have lost all respect for him. AND he CHOSE her, so in my world it is OVER. I will however continue the plan B but with tougher walls as follows;

Committed;

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> your PlanB is too lax. He is still a part of the "family" with his freedom to come and go as he pleases. I would no longer have the house available for his use. <hr /></blockquote>He will no longer have this freedom. Period.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> . Is there anyway to draw up a document outlining a parenting schedule for him? If there is, do that...and stick to it. <hr /></blockquote>I will try to work this one out and just hand it over to him. He can then cross out what he wants to change or add.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />. Cut him off....the children will survive if he goes dark for a while...it isn't up to you to make sure they stay connected to him. It is up to HIM...it is HIS responsibility to stay connected to them...it is not yours to make sure that it happens. <hr /></blockquote>I take these words to my heart as it is his responsibility not mine.

Shugah:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He needs to live with the reality of his choices!! Listen to MortarMan, you are fortunate to get advice from someone with such great insight! It may be tough on the kids for awhile, but it's going to be tough if Dad doesn't come back either! So let WH figure out how he's going to parent these kids on his own! You can't make it easy for him! <hr /></blockquote>I will not make it easy for him anymore. Absolutely not.

I am going dark now, and my Plan B/D says - NO MORE MANIPULATION, NO MORE HURT. ITS OVER.

-queen-

Whew! Wow! I know it was emotional for you, but girl I couldn't help but LOL while hearing about OW getting exactly what she deserved!! I wish I had done something like that, even if it was LB, everytime I relive my 2 meetings with OW, I wish I had cooly and calmly poured something over her head!
NOW, deep breaths, calm down and no rush to D, you are reeling with emotions right now! Let the dust settle, move into a strong Plan B and see what WH does with that.
His little tangle with REALITY may be just what he needed, there may also be trouble in Paradise over the "little" public scene!!
However, despite what he said about it "not being his choice" could just be bigtime FOG talk still.
Words are just words, let's see what his actions show now!
Meanwhile, you continue to work on getting stronger, letting your friends comfort you (pancakes sound good!)and taking care of the kids.
Patience is the name of the game here, and unfortunately, it's a tough one!! But I think you've shown WH what you're made of, and how can he not admire "SPUNK"! Although he may try to label it lunatic, as my WH did, but don't listen!!
Although not an MB principle, sometimes doing something like that gives you the satisfaction and push that you need that says "I WILL NOT BE DISRESPECTED! I WILL NOT TAKE THIS LYING DOWN"!!!
Now go DARK. Don't let him into your world until he has given up the A, agrees to No Contact and a plan for recovery!!
Now you READ, READ, READ! And be ready for whatever comes next!
I'm proud of you!

Hooboy. Queen, you deserve a million hugs and understanding. Looking at how strong you've been for all these months, I'm not at all surprised that you "snapped" as you put it. You're not invincible!!!

Having said that, DON'T let this happen again. It is extremely dangerous. YOUR emotions are extremely dangerous to you, to your H, and to his affair partner.

From outside your head, what you did could easily be interpreted as "this woman is completely nutty and dangerous."

And you know what? You -are-. You can't help it. So. For your own safety, for the safety of your H, and for the safety of his affair partner, GET OUT OF CONTACT.

You need breathing room, love. Lots of it. Probably he does, too. He apologized. Give him credit for that.

Give him credit for realizing that your emotions were way too raw for either of you to manage right then. He was right about that.

Now, what the heck are you going to do with all that anger? First of all, use it to build those walls of protection (for ALL THREE OF YOU!) high and strong and wide. Your anger will easily allow you to come up with ways to do it, and will easily fuel the energy you need to make it happen.

Give your list to someone who's lots calmer than you are, who can look at it and tell you which ones are truly to protect you and which ones are just to punish your husband and his affair partner. Talk it through with that person, and get them to help you -rationally- implement the ones that are clearly needed.

Remember, all this anger is neither good nor bad; it's in how you use the energy. Picking a fight in a bar? Not a good use of energy. Protecting yourself, your husband, his affair partner, and your kids? A very good use of energy.

When I plan B'd by H I did not yet know of affair. I just knew he was being hurtful to me on purpose and was not going to stand for it any more. Boy oh boy did the anger help me not want to contact him. My advice get angry!! Get so angry that you want to make yourself better for you (and the fun of spiting him) I made new friends and refound old ones, I found things to do (family helped with that very much) Cut and colored my hair, Found God, Never had a cleaner house, ect. After I plan b'd I found out about EA that turned out to be revealed as a PA. I did not call or speak to H at all. Of course he did not try to contact me but I told him not to till he could treat me like a human being and with respect. He did not contact me till after A was over and NC had already been established. It was not till this point I knew it was anything more than a friendship. ( I was blind to it all) My advice try to convince yourself it is over (if he decides to wake up and get his head surgically removed from his butt so be it) It is very hard not to hold that hope. But for me I had to go on with live as if he wanted a Divorce. I kept busy and kept being angry with him!

Now we are working on recovery slowly... and I am working on forgiving him. But at this point you are at protect yourself from being hurt any further. Just jump off the roller coaster! (I am sure you will find the eject button somewhere.)

Good Luck.

Tami

Queen, when he chose to leave with her he made his choice humiliating you in the process as far as I'm concerned. I've always wondered what my H would have done had I been able to walk up on them. He says he'd leave with me, but I don't believe it.
Gal, I would give years off my life to have had the opportunity you just had! It would have given me faster healing than anything else has.
Make certain you have absolutely NC now. Cut him off completely!
When he says he wants to talk, tell him you're not there to listen to his business talks, daily grind and so forth. That talking is only for one thing and that's to clear out the mud and state where he's going with the marriage from this day forward.
You have now seen how he can sleep in your bed and return to making over this OW right in your face. I can promise you he knew you were there.
Not one doubt in my mind.
As they all advise, plan B strictly, and don't allow this man to gain one inch of foothold with you unless and until he has gotten rid of OW and proved it by allowing you to hear him tell her or show you the letter and allow you to send it!
Sheesh. I give people here an A+ for strength in these plans. With a spouse like this who has multiple A's, I couldn't find one ounce of love to even consider allowing one back in my life.
I pray in your agreement in filing, you will get plenty of support and be able to live independently quite well.
You sound like you would have no problems rebuilding your life quite well and happily so even if you decide to go through with divorce.
Do what will make you happiest!
LouLou

Queen,

Wow, that OW better be glad she was able to leave with her life.

Under those circumstances and the fact that your H knew what he was doing, means that he should be carrying the blame for PROVOKING U.

Do I sanction pulling hair and dumping ice water down someone's back? Only if it is to calm down a b - - - h! OOoops, I meant to say, dog. Same thing.

That OW thought she had your # by acting coy. Instead she walkout like a drowned rat.

Now next time, you had better just walk away in an effort to not create a scene or disturb the peace. But all in all, I'd say you were ok considering the circumstances.

Sounds like you need to have a better night out. As for your H, he needs to realize the results of his actions. If the OW's hair is messy, she'd better go comb it herself.

JMHO, of course.
L.

[ March 15, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Dear Queen,

I know its not kosher to say this, and I know you probably wish it hadn't happened - but...you made my day!

While I know you are not proud of yourself for losing control, I understand the need you felt to stand up for yourself.

I agree completely with the others - no contact with him AT ALL.

On D-day no. 2, even after e-mailing my H and asking him to give me space, and not approach me, I ended up in a row with him in our kitchen, where I snapped and punched him. It was before I found MB, and I knew nothing about plan A, plan B, or LB. This was not usual behaviour for me, but I felt seriously provoked (its a long story). Looking back, I feel one of the worst mistakes I made was to apologize on the night, and afterwards. I even apologized to the OW for invading their privacy (I had found their e-mails to each other), and told her my hitting him was not her fault either. (Jeez, did I really do that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) Just shows you where I was at by then, and how much I had to grow. While I regretted deeply having hit him, and still regret it, it was a mistake to apologize for it before he had admitted to his wrongdoing, promised to end contact, and committed to rebuilding our marriage. Had I been a stronger person then, I wouldn't have felt guilty about withholding my apology.

While you may regret the violence, my advice is to not apologize for this, UNTIL and UNLESS you get what you want and need from him, if, that is, there is anything left he has that you want.

Otherwise, while in the fog, he will use your apology against you to justify his actions, just as he has admitted to doing already.

I am convinced that my apologetic attitude afterwards harmed and hindered our recovery, even to this day. My H was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and knew it. By apologizing, I gave him a way out of taking responsibility for his own HUGE part in that row, and deflected the attention away from his behaviour and on to me. Don't let this happen to you. Don't give him any more weapons to use against you.

And...I would not delete that TXT - i would save it, as proof that he admitted (at least in part) his failing. If you are thinking of D, you will need this kind of admission of guilt from him.

Just sit tight for now. You have some wonderful support here.

God bless.
LIR

[ September 15, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]

Wow, very interesting night. Now WH and OW will think twice about going out in public again. You have effectively shown themthe s=consequences of their actions and they will have to hide under rocks for awhile...keep going out...make them run and hide when you walk in...

Although it wasn't the best way to handle the situation...WELL DONE!!! You lived out my fantasy!

But this is interesting, I get the feeling you are slightly passive in your R with WH, and now he got a chance to see the strong side of you. Wheels are turning!

Stay strong...you have a right to go out.
Be confident...the troubles WH has with you are mostly in his head.
Be calm...you are better than all this.

Everyone -

I really worry when we talk about a night that included a near-brawl in a bar as "making our days." Is that really godly behavior? I mean, well, Jesus and Buddha never got into brawls, though Mohammed was a general before he was a prophet. Still, uhhh, I really worry that cheering on a major LB-fest isn't a good idea.

Sure, I understand (completely!!!!!) Queen's loss of control. I snapped like that one night, the day WP told me she wanted to leave and take the baby with her.

And even though, looking back on it, I do not know how I could have changed that reaction one iota, it still frightened and hurt my WP, someone I loved then and still love now. (Though I wish I didn't.)

So.... well, I just am not sure that it's something that's good to condone, you know?

And Queen, this is not meant as a slam on you in the slightest. You were provoked beyond the point where you could control your emotions. Everyone here, I suspect, has been in that place and knows how incredibly awful and draining and hard and all that it can be. And you have my support! Completely! I just think that we're all here to grow and learn about ourselves; we can't change our partners, after all. And so for everyone who's taking any pleasure in such a heartwrenching scene, well, I just don't think that's a good idea.

(Now I'll go put my flame-resistant coat on...)

Just J,

Actually, I can think of a time Jesus wielded a bullwhip pretty well, knocked over some tables and threw some people out of the temple.

Sometimes it takes a "Come to Jesus" confrontation of a different sort to bring a wayward spouse around.

Well, J, I tend to go with you for practical reasons. (I suspect the folks you mentioned also held their policies for practical reasons.) When we behave like that, if gives WS and OP something to talk about. If the idea of Plan B is to let WS and OP try to get their needs solved by each other, any distracting show I offer simply feeds the A and makes it more real and important.

My H kept thinking I was the crazy one -- no matter how calmly I reacted to his weirdness, no matter how bizarre OW was. I expect he's revising his notions somewhat, but it's because I withdrew from the picture almost totally. No scenes, no tears, no arguments...nuthin.

Hi all,

And thank you for your wonderful input. Its true that I am not proud of myself in the way I handled the situation, but I still feel good about the fact that I did it. I will never apologize for my feelings in that situation, because I was hurt in a way, that was mean and disrespectful. It was not a chosen situation for anyone of us, but it did bring reality to the whole sordid affair. The reality of how ugly and hurtful it really is.

Maybe I still love my Wh, I really don´t know, right now it feels like I never want to have anything to do with him, besides handling our kids. Staying in the dark is so simple, I don´t miss him. I just want to get a move on with my life. Maybe Saturday closed the door I had open for him. I say maybe, because I am still so hurt and tired of it all, that I don´t know.

I have received so many gifts through this process, and I intend to use them in my future. As a person I have grown and made a gigantic leap in my development. I have never felt more whole and more aware of my weaknesses and my strengths.

[ March 15, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Good choice not to reply. But do you see the humor and fog talk in his message??

The ways WE have hurt each other?????
How stupid WE have been?????

The fog is a terrible place to be. Don't let him drag you down into it again with him.

IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.

You are strong.
DB

You are right, but there are also more choices in his mail...

"this ending is not what I ever thought or hoped for"

-he acknowledges this is the end

"To let you go now seems hard and maybe even a mistake"

-he acknowledges that he is letting go

"that you wont stand in the way for me and the kids!"

-he acknowledges we will not be having the kids together anymore

Guys - He maybe is in the fog and he has not got the balls to make a choice, but he is doing it. He made the choice on Saturday. He is making the choice now too.

And all this, "talk with you about MY feelings, MY situation, MY doubts etc. while you needed distance to me... And at the moment being alone without sharing MY hurt is very difficult!",just proves that this man is nowhere near having empathy or understanding for anyone else but himself.

I´ve had it. I don´t think I can do it anymore. He has made his choice.

-queen-

Interesting, I was alarmed to read in his letter about the "ending", but I wonder if he is jsut saying that to get you to answer him...

He may start really pushing your buttons to get you to answer him...

Remember, he wants you BOTH!!

But mostly you can just ignore this letter and his talk as one who is blathering some other language...

SHMI:

I am not alarmed that he is talking about the ending, because I think i said to him on Saturday when he walked up to the dance floor to say sorry - "get lost, go back to your affair because it is over".

And I know what you fellow MB´s have to say to me, if I am in Plan B, then I have to send a short Plan B letter - love you, want to stay married to you, nc etc...

But I don´t know whether I still love him, whether I want to stay married to him and whether I care anymore what he does. So right now, i cannot do anything, I need to feel what it is I am feeling and whether there is any hope left. Like I said, staying dark is so easy, because maybe, just maybe, there is nothing to be saved anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-queen-

Actually, Queenie, I feel the same way. That's why I never sent PBL, either. Just piping in my support and understanding.

queen of

these words are no different than any other words from him..they carry no more or no less weight than anything else he has said..

D0 not read all this extra meaning in to these words...

do not send another plan B letter...

just keep on doing what you are doing...

It is his actions that will define him..AND even if he does make moves to legally pursue this...which I am willing to bet isn't going to happen...
there is nothing that can't be stopped, reversed, or re-done...

He hasn't fully processed his responsibility in any of this...he is still way to much in to blaming you...note how he manages to continue that theme in every correspondance...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You have been hurt bad...take some time to heal and lick your own wounds...let him spin and babble on...
blah blah blah blah...
I'm suprised this man is able to pick his own socks out alone...let alone choose major life decisions right now...

remove the weights you are placeing on his words...lighten the load for yourself..

blessings to you ARK

I am rapidly moving towards Plan D. I don´t know guys but I feel like I have not got a shred of hope left. I am searching for a place to live and its tough finding something in the line of rent I am willing to pay.

On Tuesday I am going to look at a house where the family is living in Singapore. They want double the rent of what I can afford, but I wrote to them my situation and they said that if they felt I was the right person, that they would consider my offer. I could live there until next summer and that would give me time to get the rest of my life in order.

Please pray for me and my children that this family believe I am the right person and could move into this home 1st of October.

My finances are running really low and since Saturday I have not had any contact with my WH. My old au-pair has been visiting this week and she has been an intermediary between my WH and I. This morning I asked her if she could tell my WH that I needed some money for food and gasoline. She gave him the message and my WH said that if I need something that I have to ask him directly.

I don´t know what to do. I don´t want to ask him for anything directly, I just want this over and done with. How much more do I need to be humiliated?

My 10yr old son said, mummy I have got money on my account, we can manage on that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My WH will do anything to manipulate the situation, so again he saw a way.

Yesterday night I got this message from him;

It is better to light a tiny candle - instead of cursing the darkness

I was about to send the following message back,

A candle is lit, just in another room

but didn´t.

I´m just going to try to figure this all out by myself and not count or ask for his help. I can´t have contact with him. I just can´t. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-queen-

Dear Queen,

My heart goes out to you, and I will pray for you.

But I also think you need to seek legal advice, like, yesterday.

There is absolutely no reason why you should be in this financial situation. You have children and your husband has a legal responsibility to support them, which he is not living up to.

It was the hardest thing I did, finding myself in a solicitor's office, but I did it, and it helped give me strength when I later asked him to leave. I knew the facts, and him knowing that I knew the facts let him know that he couldn't push me around, and his situation was a lot more serious than he realized.

Your H is emotionally manipulative, by denying you money for food unless you come to him and ask for it. He SHOULD be offering this to you of his own free will, even if you haven't asked for it, and even if he is angry with you - even if he is the one who didn't want to speak to you, in other words, he should be providing financial support.

He is entirely in the wrong - he is having an affair, he left the family home, he is not providing financial support - you need, at this point, to bring heavier pressure to bear on him - it might just wake him up to the fact that this is not a game.

Also, the fact that you "laid hands on her" in a public place - you really ought to seek legal advice on this count alone. In my case, my solicitor told me that our fracas in the kitchen would not be seen by a judge as my fault, even though I was the one who hit him - it was an unfortunate incident in a highly-charged emotional interaction which was entirely out of character for me.

Please protect yourself here. I don't think doing this for yourself would harm the situation any more.

Also, I don't know how it is done in Denmark, but here in England, I found a solicitor who specialized in family law, and the first consultation was free. She was able to offer me legal advice through LegalAid, because my own income from part-time work was low. Don't let the thought of legal fees put you off to begin with. Find out the facts first - you could easily qualify for legal help.

Take care,
LIR

[ September 18, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]

You were in Plan A for a LONG time. You are feeling drained and DOUBLY betrayed. If you move to D now without doing your best Plan B at the end you will always wonder if you did enough.

I agree, get the financials in writing. Get the visitation in writing too. Without his input, you'll just have to guess at what he wants...don't necessarily give him what he wants but set this up so it is the best for the FAMILY. Ask the kids how often they want to see Dad and then weigh this against how disruptive it would be to theirs and your lives.

In the States a separation agreement paves the way for a D. A separation agreement will often be used to write the D decree. That may or may not be the case there.

How are you doing for support? Do you have family you could live with for awhile? DO you have friends you're talking with? Have you exposed the A to his family yet (have they heard your side of the tale?)

Queen
I have written this before. About a friend who in most respects was a great guy, but had a few affairs. The last was his undoing.

Some people are so focused and so single minded toward achieving a goal that they disregard any of the resulting consequenses. He after repeated half hearted attempts at counseling and reconciliation, he told his BS that "All my troubles will be over when we divorce." He told this to many of his friends. As it turns out, it was only the beginning of his troubles.

Your H may find that: "Sometimes having is not so good as wanting"

To me, it seems like he feels like it is time to do "something". I don't think he really knows himself if it's right. I don't know who's forcing this, but he is doing "something" hoping for a good outcome. I don't believe he is confident as he is trying to appear. Just my 2 cents.

Well, just before I was about to consider calling my lawyer on what to do, my WH sends a message saying, "what is your account no?". Of course I sent it. Just hope the transfer makes tomorrow, so we can get through the weekend. Else my best friend is staying for a few days and I can loan some money from her til Monday.

I hope that he came to this conclusion himself that his wife and children need food and not that somebody needed to spell it out for him.

I know this sounds pretty unbelievable since I am saying I basically do not have money for food, but our standard of living is higher than the average danes. We have not been needy of anything, but it is my WH that has had 100% control of our money.We do not have a joint account, I just have asked for money when I need it. I don´t own any credit cards or cash cards, because I like to pay everything in cash as I like to feel in control over my spending (else I would spend too much).

Anyway I´m glad he pulled through and has made a transaction.

ARK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> these words are no different than any other words from him..they carry no more or no less weight than anything else he has said.. <hr /></blockquote>I know, nothing has changed for him, besides the fact that he has maybe pushed me further down the road of actually giving up on this marriage. Something has changed for me. I just don´t know what it is. The pain I am feeling right now is different to the pain I have been feeling before. Like I am truly grieving for a death. My pain before was easier to bear, the betrayal, the lies - this pain goes deeper, right to the core of me...I don´t even think about writing to him anymore, wanting to tell my feelings, share my worries, joys. Once in a while I try...just for myself. I start out dear WH, I write half a sentence and then I can already feel that I have nothing more to say. Am I already at the place where there is no return?

Lady in Red:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Your H is emotionally manipulative, by denying you money for food unless you come to him and ask for it. He SHOULD be offering this to you of his own free will, even if you haven't asked for it, <hr /></blockquote>Yes, you are right, thankfully he (or someone else) pushed him to his senses. I don´t think he understands the seriousness of the situation anymore. Its like its a game. But my life and our childrens lives are not a game. We are living, breathing humans.

Still here making it:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You were in Plan A for a LONG time. You are feeling drained and DOUBLY betrayed. If you move to D now without doing your best Plan B at the end you will always wonder if you did enough. <hr /></blockquote>What is the best Plan B at this point? Am I not doing that? O.K I have started the seperation, and looking for a place to live and will get the financials in place asap. I am also throwing my WH in the OW arms. The only thing I am not doing is confirming my WH that I still love him and want to stay married to him. But I can´t say that if I truly do not know anymore, can I? So isn´t this the best I can do?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How are you doing for support? Do you have family you could live with for awhile? DO you have friends you're talking with? Have you exposed the A to his family yet <hr /></blockquote>I´m not doing too good with support. My family lives in Finland and England, so I don´t get to see them so often. Even my best friends live abroad. But I am finding ways of building myself a new network. I have exposed the A to his family and our mutual friends. His mother and father have said they will support me with helping with the kids once in a while. They are quite devastated of the whole thing, and blame themselves for "spoiling" him...

Monty:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Sometimes having is not so good as wanting" <hr /></blockquote>I think this quote hits the root of my WH behaviour for always. He is always wanting more, enjoying what he has got is just not enough. Actually,he had the children in our home not so many nights ago, and before he left,he left a newspaper article (obviously for me to read) about men being Don Juans - having the desire to conquer the next woman, and once conquered the next again...So somehow he can even see it himself, but how am I supposed to use info like that if I need a marriage based on me being no.1?

-queen-

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What is the best Plan B at this point? Am I not doing that? <hr /></blockquote>Yes, yes, most certainly YES!!

What I meant to say, is give the Plan some time. If you went straight to Plan D right now you'd always wonder if you gave Plan B enough time.

This is time for you. Time for you to get on your own feet. Time for you to get used to being alone...or to decide what kind of M you want, either with this man or with another.

Interesting that he left the article...it was something that interested him. Is he looking to rationalize his behavior so he won't feel so bad. As if to say, "See, other guys do this, it must not be SO bad." Oh well, just because we have the capability to behave a certain way doesn't give us the acceptance to do it (killing, stealing, lying, cheating). I think he's looking for rationalization.

You seem like you are doing an EXCELLENT Plan B. Keep it up. You can keep going like this for awhile. You'll either live without him in Plan B or live without him in Plan D.

I know this sounds pretty unbelievable since I am saying I basically do not have money for food, but our standard of living is higher than the average danes. We have not been needy of anything, but it is my WH that has had 100% control of our money.
Are you doing anything so you do not need to rely 100% on him for money?

Chris;

Yes, I have taken steps to take control of my life again economically, but it is going slowly. I guess it will be hard to put into full effect until the legal seperation is final, so I know what my WH has to pay in terms of child support etc...

SHMI:

Thanks for replying, I was really in doubt there whether you thought I was missing something. Sometimes its good to spell ones doubts out just to avoid misunderstandings. Communication can be a difficult thing.

-queen-

I guess it will be hard to put into full effect until the legal seperation is final, so I know what my WH has to pay in terms of child support etc...
You should plan as if he will pay zero. Even if the courts order him to pay, what if he doesn't? You need to look at what you need to do to make it without any financial support from him.
This is not to say you will HAVE to do it, but you should look at it as a possibility.

Yes, it stinks and it's not fair but what are you gonna do?

Sooo, going out this weekend? Group of friends going to support you on another adventure on the town (this time without the drama)?

Don´t think so...
Still licking my wounds...
besides can´t leave kids alone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Whey, I got to rent the house from the family living in Singapore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The house is huge and they wanted double the rent, but I wrote a long letter to them explaining my situation and after meeting with me agreed I could pay half of the going rate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I can move in 1st October, and last night I called my WH for a talk. Made a list of all the practical stuff we needed to talk about.

We sat and my plan was only to talk "business", schedules with the kids, finances, moving...But he started out by talking about his feelings, sobbing his heart out how awful he was having it.

I still have VERY strong feelings for him guys. I´m bound to him in a way I can´t explain - he is my true love. I just know it. It tore me apart to see how depressed and down he was. I told him that as long as he was seeing "her", then I could not help him. I can´t. I have to stand on my own two feet and get my life back together again. Plan B it is. For ME!!!!

Getting this house makes me feel so much stronger. Just today, a female colleague of mine wrote a mail to me, queen, you are such a beautiful woman, are you aware that when you were walking down in the cantine this lunch time, guys were having knives and forks falling out of their hands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

There you go! The strength shines through...My WH does not know what he is losing!

(pity I am not even slightly interested in anyone else though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) Guess that time will come.

Well, moving out will make Plan B easier. I did tell my WH two "personal" things though. 1. That if it does not work out with him and OW after trying and he has nothing better than to "try" with me, then he can forget about it. I won´t be 2nd or last choice. Have too much respect and self worth to jump into something where he did not choose me as No.1. Secondly told him if he ever brings OW into our now mutual home, he will have also raped our mutual territory and I will never come back to this home.

Had to say those two things because I mean them. Give him something to think about.

Gotta go and cook kids a meal.
Just wanted to share the good news.

-queen-

Good for you! You sound great!

I can really feel the strength in your posting! And you have set some very clear boundaries.

You are not giving up on your M, you are giving up on the M the way it USED to be. What are your ideals for a GREAT M?

Oh dear, sigh, here we go again.

Plan B in the rubbish bin. Comments to last incidents?

Last Wednesday we had the "talk" and agreed practical stuff, now that I am moving out next weekend.

We agreed we would spend our last weekend together under the same roof, tell the kids together and talk about what I will be packing -maikng the split.

Friday evening went well. We had a long talk (he did most of it). Seemed like he might be turning around but did not put too much hope or weight on any of his words. He has some remorse, but is still in the fog.

He slept in the guest room. I tried to sleep in our bed. No sleep cause little one was up vomiting all night and had diarrea, so I was changing sheets all night and washing him. Did not ask WH to help though until morning when I was just so wasted. (had not slept for many many nights).

Wh took over. He washed vomity sheets, gave little one a bath, took dog for walk and started to make brunch. He came up to check on me andmy sleeping (could not sleep) and then offered a back massage to help me relax. I was just so tired I was willing to try anything to fall asleep. You know that feeling when you are so tired you can´t sleep anymore?

So, he starts massaging me and one thing leads to another. B4 u know it we are having hot passionate sex and lovemaking all weekend, and finally I manage to sleep. SF does that to me,I sleep really well.

O.K. so now you all say Plan B is truly shredded. I guess you are right. But I did explain him the following.

That he should not think that because I gave into him physically, that what he has done is o.k because it is not. The reason I am moving out is what happened that Saturday when I met him with the OW. He said he is ashamed and remorseful about that and that he wishes he could take that night back. I continued to tell him that I need to move out now no matter whether he finishes all contact with OW or not, because I need some time to reflect my feelings on how much he really has hurt me,and whether there is a way back, because I think it has gone way too far.

I also told him that it scared me to let go of our 8 yr relationship, but that relationship and marriage has to be buried, moving out for me is finalizing thefact that it no longer exists for me. Whether we find a way into each others hearts again in the future remains to be seen. Maybe, maybe not. But as long as this continues that way will seem more and more impossible.

I also explained to him that making love together just proved to me that there are alot of strong feelings left and it is harder to let go than I thought. But still, it means nothing more than that, there are feelings, there is still love, but there is NO WAY, if he continues this contact business, and there is NO WAY, if he runs to me because it doesn´t work out for him and there is NO WAY, if he brings her into the mutual home we built and he is staying in.

I don´t know how you see it guys, but even though I managed to show him that I still feel for him, care for him,desire him and love him, I also showed him that I would not put up with it anymore. Just because I acted human this weekend does not give him the right to think he still hasme and everything is o.k.

Well, after all that he asked whether we should go to therapy together and I said I was reluctant but would think about it.

He also asked if I would go to a birthday party with him mid November. I said I did not know,but would get back to him.

Today I told him that I just read that a "famous" couples therapist was giving a lecture on "why love whithers" on wednesday evening, and if I was to be interested in couples therapy, then maybe we should first check this guy out and see what kind of principles he has in his lecture...
He said he would like to go.

WH also called me today and told me OW has told her H that she has been having an affair for 8 months and he wanted to "warn" me just in case he called. I told him that if OW H was to call my WH, that not to be an [censored], because that H of hers is probably hurting like anything and that I should know, been there, done that.

So thats the update. Hit me!

P.S. I will go back into a full blown Plan B when I move this weekend. WH is not living here rest of week, but he will be around for kids so I can get some packing done.

-queen-

Why would I hit you? Sounds like you're beating yourself up enough. Sounds like you said all the right things when it came to setting clear boundaries.

Falling off the horse like this is a setback...I've heard it's like starting your Plan B at day one...but you've restated your position, and you are still moving out.

I'm not a good one to talk. I wrote letters to my FWH and we would have serious talks about once a week...mostly about how plans would work (vacation, etc.) Then there was the one night I found them both on chat at the same time (2+2=cheating) and confronted him (and her) about it online.

Each persons Plan B and recovery is different. There are quite a few things that are the same though.

Seeing the lecture together is interesting... Would you guys consider phone counseling with the Harley's or Cerri?

And having the OW tell H is VERY GOOD NEWS!! It means they are beginning to see the remorse in their actions. I wonder if he's hoping she will break it off so he doesn't have to...and be the bad guy.

[ September 29, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]

WOW! Well, if your going to break PlanB..
I suppose we should start swinging away with the 2x4s, but the fact is I would give anything to make love to WW again, and would sure as hell break PlanB to do it.

Thanks 23down and SHMI. The fact is I set boundaries, I am moving on and out AND I got to make love to my husband and he made love to me, his wife. So whichever way you look at it, yeps, I broke the plan, but I did not feel like a victim or did not get hurt. And we connected.

So, how is the plan going? Update?

Been thinking about you!

So, now I have moved out to a new house. My WS and I spent last Wed to Sun evening under the same roof. I packed whilst he watched the kids. Sat the moving men came, and I moved to the new house. Up til Sat morning my WH and I slept and made love in the same bed. We hugged and kissed. He told me he loved me very much and was on the verge of tears constantly. Like me.

He kept on asking whether this was the right thing to do. He also said that if he was to call OW straight away and say it was over, whether I would still move. I replied to him, that I would, because he has promised it so many times that I would not put myself through yet another dissappointment. That if there was a chance for us, then it would have to be for real, not just because it is too tough for him to see me move out of his life.

During all this moving stuff I came down with the flu. So I have been moving, making home etc. with fever and a bad cough. Did not go to work Mon-Tues, but today had to show up because there is so much work to do. I have now gone from a part time job to full time, so I can economically stand on my own two feet until 1.June (That is when the rental contract expires, so I will be looking for something more permanent in the mean time).

The house is wonderful. I have everything now in place, pictures on walls, curtains hanging. My WH bought me a new designer dining table w/chairs, a flat screen tv. stereo system, new beds for kids...It seemed like he really wanted me to have it nice and cosy, and I have everything I need.

SO where am I? I feel lost and I feel empty. The five days we were together was a big jump out of Plan B, and turned into alot of affection, love, talking and crying. We even went to hear this couple therapist give a lecture Wed evening. It was interesting, he talked alot about how things go wrong in a relationship, with too much work, small babies, losing the connection to ones partner. It was a humorous lecture, where everyone could relate to the problems.

Afterwards my WH and I talked about the lecture, ( I let him do the relationship talking as I think he needs to take intitiative) and he said "well, its easy to see how it has gone wrong for us, but what do you do when it is truly broken? How do you fix it?". I let that question hang, without any solutions or response. I feel that since I have been doing all the work in "plan a" that I will not come with the solutions on a silver platter for him. If he wants this, he has to make some decisions and he also has to want to fight for it. Am I wrong?

Back to where I am. Sunday evening my WH left with the kids and I spent my first night alone in the new house. I cried myself to sleep as I was missing my children (and WH after the 5 days of love & affection) so much. We have made an agreement that I have the kids 9 days and he then has them 5 days (Thu-Tues). Yesterday I had them in the house for the first time. It was weird. Everything is in its place but it just does not seem like home. I can´t sit down, and feel like I have to keep moving, keep doing "something or anything".

I think I know I have to go back into a plan B again, but it feels tough to do, because I feel very vulnerable and insecure in my new surroundings. (My top emotional need is security - in terms of home & having my "frame" in order and affection walks hand in hand with my need security... ). So now that I have the security, but don´t feel like it is my home yet, and I don´t have the affection & feelings to make home feel like home = LOST & EMPTY.

My WH is out travelling from today til Friday, so I will be spending my nights with the kids in the old house because of our dog. I am not allowed to take the dog in the new house - its in the rental contract because of the owners allergy. So somehow I will continue to be connected to our old home...The plan is that my WH will make our "old" master bedroom into an office for five of his employees and he will make the upstairs of our old home into his new office. Then the dog will have company when my WH is out travelling in the daytime and one of the employees can take the dog for a walk. But when my WH is out travelling and the dog is alone, I will at times spend my nights in the house w/kids to look after it. My conditions to doing this was that OW NEVER sets a foot into our home, else I will not set a foot in our home, never mind spending the night there. My WH has promised that he will comply to those terms.

I feel like I am maneuvering in a grey zone...could somebody help me in guiding me onto the right path? I still hope that there is a chance for my WH and me. Am I moving in the right direction? Any thoughts?
What do I do? A little bit of advice would be greatly appreciated.

-queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

P.S

OW is now divorced from her H. And she wants my WH bad (he told me so, but that he was not sure what he wanted anymore with her...)

He also said that if he was to call OW straight away and say it was over, whether I would still move.

OW is now divorced from her H. And she wants my WH bad (he told me so, but that he was not sure what he wanted anymore with her...)

poor poor poor husband...wondering if he "were" to "call" her straight away and say it was "over".....would you not move out...hhhmmmm

poor poor husband...has a wife and a mistriss who both want to be married to HIM...(lucky guy)...and he's just "not sure" what he wants....

playing you playing you playing you...

How does my WH begin to fight for me and stop all contact with OW?

he does it like everyone else who does by deciding what is of real value and honor...
you can't do this for him...

there's no mystery to him doing it..it's him doing the actions needed to be the type of husband and father you and your children are worthy of....

My top emotional need is security - in terms of home & having my "frame" in order and affection walks hand in hand with my need security... ).

The thing that sounds even more scary to me...is FALSE SECURITY...FALSE AFFECTION...FALSE FEELINGS....

Queenof...this is your growing time..and with it comes pain..but this is your defining moment of saying enough is enough...
and you are easily letting yourself be dragged right back from which you came...

not sure what he wants from the other woman...
Is there any other answer you need from him..
any other answer????

His not being sure
his waffling
his still not making any action or decision...

is you just allowing the same thing again back in to your life...

you and he will get comfortable with seeing him more at your place..
a lovely dinner with the family...
ends up back in your bed...
and then one night after being in your bed...says he has to check on something at the office...
and straight to the OW...

over and over and over and over and over again...
only thing different is the physcial surroundings and the new TV...

this is not to beat you up....or even find much negativity with what you have done during the move...infact plan b is better after a really strong plan a...

if he is away right now...time to tighten up the plan b reigns...
and when he returns NO CONTACT...because no doubt he's expecting things to settle into this comfortable cake eating pattern...

do you want to go back to this scary foundation of lies and double-speak queen of...

here's what you wrote before the move...

told him that as long as he was seeing "her", then I could not help him. I can´t. I have to stand on my own two feet and get my life back together again. Plan B it is. For ME!!!!

Seemed like he might be turning around but did not put too much hope or weight on any of his words. He has some remorse, but is still in the fog.

But still, it means nothing more than that, there are feelings, there is still love, but there is NO WAY, if he continues this contact business, and there is NO WAY, if he runs to me because it doesn´t work out for him and there is NO WAY, if he brings her into the mutual home we built and he is staying in.

I could go on and on...

blessings and prayers to you queenof...
time to throw yourself in to work, the kids, find a new project, class, interest...and fill your life...with light and joy...

he KNOWS what he needs to do...
It is in his hands....

ARK

I agree with Ark here...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> if he is away right now...time to tighten up the plan b reigns...
and when he returns NO CONTACT...because no doubt he's expecting things to settle into this comfortable cake eating pattern...
<hr /></blockquote>It was great to say goodbye, to have the last bit of Plan A, but time for Plan B.

I hear the fear in your voice...she's available, you won't be, she's easily accessible, you won't be, he's going to fall for her, then why does he spend so much time with you? Because she's not enough. But for some reason he's attached to her...excitement, not wanting to hurt her, newness, who knows what he's getting from her, but it's not enough. (Ain't that a run-on sentence).

Maybe my point was lost...what he's getting from her is NOT ENOUGH. If you remove yourself from the equation, then he will have a half-life. The OW was like the bow on the package...not needed, but a nice surprise. You've since learned how to give him the whole package (bow included) and he will remember that. When he realizes he doesn't have a history with her...

It's a matter of how soon he realizes this. And this you cannot change. The more you remove yourself from the equation, the more he will miss the EN's you gave.

So, time for Plan B? IMVHO, I think so. Time for a new Plan B letter? Perhaps. And in it expalin how taking care of the dog will be his responsibility, he will have to find someone else to care for it (he/she/it?) He's got friends he can call on. Don't make it so easy for him to live without you. Don't fulfill his Domestic Support Emotional Need. Putting yourself in the house again will not be taking you out of the equation and has the potential to fulfill his needs (unless saying no has come easier?)

You are doing an excellent job! You miss him, he needs to know you are willing to work on the M if only...tell him what your expectations are? N/C, accountability, honesty, what else? Then leave it at that...no more contact.

And keep yourself busy...start a new class, meet new people, get the kids involved in something new.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:

The OW was like the bow on the package...not needed, but a nice surprise. You've since learned how to give him the whole package (bow included) and he will remember that. When he realizes he doesn't have a history with her...

<hr /></blockquote>PERFECT ..... write this on a piece of paper and tape it to your mirror .... "I am THE whole package" ..... and don't forget it!

Let him see how much he misses you .... the "bow" OW will not be enough ..... you'll see.

Plab B and really DO IT ..... now is the time to get serious!

Pep

PS..... Plan B after great sex? perfect!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive. I AM the WHOLE package bow inclusive.

And the OW, well, she´s just the bow, a nice suprise but missing the content! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the pep talk ARK, Still here making it and Pepperband - You shed some light in the midst of a very empty, lonely and dark place.

Cyberhugs for saving my day!

-queen-

A small update.

I spent last night in the old house looking after the dog and ended up "snooping" around and found my WH Mastercard bill, which got me fuming.

Well I sent a nasty LB text message to him and told him that this looking after the dog thing I won´t do anymore, because things are lying around in the house that create more hurt.

He sent me the following mail back;

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hi my dear,

I don't know why you suddently lost it again yesterday - if you for some reason think of the time I have stayed at the Hotel - please notice I had to be somewhere with OW since I promised you not to bring her to any of the mutual places we two shared... And since she has been here on business, I have not payed if you refer to me spending money!

Enough of that now - I just wanted to make things straight - since nothing has changed from what we have discussed lately... But maybe it has for you (again)?

Kiss WH <hr /></blockquote>I replied him with the following;

Dear WH

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "...since I promised you not to bring her to any of the mutual places we two shared..." <hr /></blockquote>Whatever, Our cafe...The night club...The Hotel...broken promises.
Our home? Well you know that I am not coming back there if that happens...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "...I just wanted to make things straight - since nothing has changed from what we have discussed lately... But maybe it has for you (again)?" <hr /></blockquote>Nope, nothing has changed. Still love you. Still want our marriage to have its chance. Still won´t accept being part of this tacky threesome. Still want the pain to stop. Still think I deserve a supportive, loving and caring husband like you deserve a supportive, loving and caring wife. Still agree that we have both made some stupid mistakes and we have not met each others needs so that this situation has occurred. Still believe in us. Still believe we share something unique.

Nope ,nothing has changed for you either, has it? Because you still continue your thing. Besides the fact that now I am out of your life and you are finally "free".

I saw a copy of your Mastercard bill and funnily enough it is you that have paid for the hotel bills, why else would they be on YOUR Mastercard plus your romantic dining at Victors....all of that adds up to a nice round little sum of 7000 within a month plus God knows what ever extras...In comparison to spending money on clothes for kids at H&M for 7546 to get them through the winter, I would say that our mutual economy is been spent on this woman, who obviously can afford her own hotel bills and dining, she only has herself to keep on her multimillion salary.

I am also VERY UPSET about the fact that on Tuesday you could not make it home earlier to keep your agreement to have one kid = our eldest son, because you had to fit a meal in with OW at the airport. That sucks.

Like I said I pull myself out of this equation of three people. I do not want to be a part of it anymore. I want a life for me and our children where I do not have to encounter more of this hurt. I love you and I have been wishing and fighting for working things out but none of that is going to happen as long as she is in the picture. And none of it is going to happen as long as you don´t wish or want the same. I cannot handle being in the house without "snooping" around. Its tactless, tasteless, call it what ever you want, but since I still care and since I still hurt because of all of this, it is best for me to not be anywhere near your surroundings. You are still causing me pain because I bloody still care for you, miss you and love you... and it needs to STOP! More pain is out of the equation too.

The dog. A solution needs to be found, this will not work.

Financial support. I suggest xxxx/child (and no, I did not pull it out of a hat because I asked our friend what her ex pays her, but what do I know. Since you can spend 7K on OW or maybe even more in a month just to be with her, I guess its not so much - these are our kids AFTER ALL). There is something called wife support as well, but since you are paying the mobile and car...

But maybe you are already at the point where you want to proceed with the seperation and make it all nice and fine and legal. Well file away my dear. Then you and OWcan have a happy divorcee party in half a year. Whey to go!

Oh, just in case I did not make myself clear first time around.

As long as she is in the picture I can´t do it anymore. If and when you stop it, maybe we then can start on a new beginning for both of us - Rome was not built in a day and neither would a new marriage. You can get back to me if you ever get to that point.

Queen

******************************************

Guys this was my cue to jump back into N/C in PB.
Now its about me and the kids and getting my life back on track. I am out of the equation. Thank you for your support.

My personal everyday mantra;

I am the WHOLE wonderful package, bow inclusive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ October 09, 2003, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

Wow, what a GREAT letter!

Full of love and care and showing him how much this hurts, and full of FIRM boundaries.

I think he's got the idea that he can have you both if he just waits around and you will give back in (you have before). Not to give you a hard time, but it does make him arder to believe that this latest Plan B is for good...for real.

But the longer he goes without your love and support...the more painful this separation will be. Men do not fall for OW becaus they are just as selfish as they are. You can tell by the way he is expected to pay for the hotel bill. Heck, if she wants him so bad why doesn't she get an apartment in town? Or is it that she doesn't want him...just his attention and to see how many hoops he can jump through. Let's see how quickly he tires of this.

So now what? No more email, no more contact (except VERY matter of factly about the kids). He is going to try to pull you back in any way he can. See it for what it is...

I am TOTALLY wrecked.

I have infection in my cheek bones and my lungs so had to go to doctors and get antibiotics. I sent a message to my WH and told him that tomorrow Friday I would not go to work as I have fever but I would walk the dog and put money out for the cleaning woman I have arranged for him once a week and tell her what to do. But that then I would go home to my new home and rest and he can take it from there.

I then receive a message from him saying, I´m sorry but I forgot I am leaving to London Friday afternoon and am away the weekend. What do WE do with the dog.

I´m sorry guys this is too much. I wrote him back and said I am ill, burnt out and need some rest so he has to figure that one out. I am no catering service for his romantic getaways with OW.

He wrote back that he planned this trip ages ago and that he did not know back then that he had the dog full time. And did the dog have to suffer because of that?

I tell you, I was really on the verge of a mental breakdown. I cant handle this **** anymore. WHO THE HELL DOES HE THINK HE IS?

Well, looks like if I don´t do something the dog is on its own and I love it too much for that. Have now aranged for it a place to stay the weekend, because I WILL NOT do this thing staying in the old house to take care of it, whilst WH is all over the place. If nothing else we will have to find ourdog a new family, because my WH can´t live upt o the responsibility. He is a bloody Peter Pan.

I am really upset. Feel treaded all over and the only one to blame is ME! I let him. IT HAS TO STOP!

Just venting. I am just so angry. And what is he doing? Taking Ms.moneybag to London on our mutual economy to impress her - oh, I know his ways and it makes me sick to think he is going to take her everywhere the two of us have been...trashing all the nice memories I have of us in London!

I HATE THIS. IT SUCKS.

And my heart is slowly dying a very painful death :-(

queen of a numb heart

Queen -

Boy, I know just how hard this period of time is for you! I lived through something too similar, and I'm so glad for you that it's the dog and not the baby he's tossing around!

So, take care of yourself!!! NO more contact with him! I know you love the dog, but NO MORE of this! You're tired, burned out, sick and in need of comforting!

You need chicken soup, not dealing with this crap.

So love yourself, get yourself chicken soup, and STOP ANSWERING WH's e-mails, calls, voicemails, letters, faxes, and smoke signals. Matter of fact about the kids is fine, but NONE of this other stuff!

Your body is screaming at you right now with the illness you have. It's saying STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!

Listen to it. Just stop doing everything for a while. Get in bed and stay there. Sleep. Drink lots of fluids. Take your medicine. My body did the exact same thing during that perioid of my life, and I did what I could to listen to it. It's protecting you as well as it can; give it the love it needs and protect yourself consciously as well as lymphatically! (I wonder if that's really a word...)

Wish I could get there to make soup for you, but know that it's headed your way in my thoughts!

I am so sorry.

I wonder what would have happened if you had not answered the phone or he didn't have you to rely on to take care of the dog? What is he going to do when it's HIS weekend for the kids?

It's easy to be in love <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> when you're on vacation without any worries...ugh. How can you make life a little more real for him...don't pay the cleaning lady? Don't bail him out when things get tough...
Cleaning lady quits or doesn't get paid...it's his responsibility.
Time to find another family for the dog...probably, or should he?
Have accounts in both your names? Time to start splitting them up? (Especially credit cards it sounds like).
Do you have a schedule for visitations with the kids? Does he have them ENTIRE weekends? If not...how come?
Please don't tell me you do ANYTHING for him (cook, laundry, pick up dry cleaning). It's time he do things for himself, or have his OW do it (wonder how long she'll stick around after that).

And when it's over between them, don't run back right away. It will be time for special trips and lavished attention on YOU then! Then you can come back.

I survived the weekend, though it was probably the toughest weekend of my life.

Mentally because my WH was trampolining around London with OW whilst I had high fever, could barely stand on my feet. The two year old got a stomach infection, so he had diarrea for 4 days - I had to change about a 100 nappies and his bottom skin was all broken and red <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . He woke up 10-15 times a night crying, because his bottom was hurting so bad.

My 10 yr old started vomiting on Saturday. The only one that was healthy was my 5 yr old daughter, so I managed to send her to her friends to stay the night Sat-Sun.

You can´t even imagine how I feel about my WH right now and I could not help myself and sent him some very very ANGRY messages telling him what a big [censored] he is for not being there for the kids when their mummy is so ill. I wrote him that I do not know him anymore and that he acts like a bloody teenager that has no responsibility whatsoever. He does not know how to be a father, a husband or just a decent caring person.

I know, maybe I LB´d, but to tell you the truth I don´t really care. He did not just fail me. He failed our kids big time. He is an egoistic, egocentric BABOON!

His only reply to me was kind of in the line, well when you attack me I feel like hiding...

I wrote him back, Oh well kids, daddy can´t be there for you because he feels like hiding and running away, so grow up and take responsibility for yourselves, will you?

Wonder whether he got the message?

I am just so Furious so angry at the moment, I have lost all respect for this person that says "he still loves me"...

AAAARGH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Whoa Nelly,

The LB's have to stop. The contact has to stop. Everytime you LB you make the OW look so much sweeter. For a man who wants to hide from his shame and guilt, you've rubbed his nose in it. He won't come back because he feels guilty, he comes back because he loves you.

How about a renewed Plan B letter where you explain why the LBs this weekend (sick, feeling abandoned) and reaffirm N/C.

And then STICK to N/C. This is to protect your M and you. To preserve the love you have for him (and love he has for you). No more LBs, no more sweetness.

Everytime you fall off the wagon with contact, either physical, emotional, LB, you start your Plan B all over again.

Begin to be STRONG QUEENIE! Begin to build a life without him. You were angry this weekend because you needed him and resented him for not being there. But hey, you did it!! You survived the weekend without him! You can live without him! Begin to move on and live without him and he won't expect it. He thinks he can have his fling and come back some day (they all think that). Show him you are moving on without him, and don't NEED him.

You can do this!!! You are strong!!

BTW, what is the plan for the Dad to take care of the kids? When does he take them for a weekend and give YOU a break? What is the visitation schedule like? If he hasn't set something up, then it's time to tell him you have plans during X weekend and he will be taking the kids Friday night and you will pick them up Sunday night...

Begin to ask him during the week to have him keep the kids. Wednesday nights? Every other weekend? Put a crimp in his style? And give you some well deserved breaks...then go for a drive...go travelling...go OUT!!!

SHMI,

You are my angel did you know that?

I know rubbing his nose into it does not do any good, but I just could not help myself. I don´t think I am going to send another Plan B letter or I might throw a few lines when he sends me one of his "sorry I hurt you" e-mails again.

The kids. I made a schedule because he said he wanted the kids 50/50. Well I did not agree to that and it goes 5 days with him and 9 days with me. And guess what? His five days start tomorrow!

So, I am going out to eat with friends Thursday night, on a "dinner date" Friday night, going to a few photo exhibitions Saturday, brunch Sunday, Salsa class (never danced it) on Monday and then there is a few gym lessons in between.

I´m not all top of the pops yet, but I have planned to keep myself busy and meet a lot of new people and do some new things! And this long weekend is all about me, and me only.

Sigh. I will TRY to be strong.

queenie

Hope you're enjoying your "me" time. You miss them, but we get so wrapped up in our family's lives we neglect (or run away from) our own. You deserve this time.

And I am no angel (can you tell I don't take compliments well), I have faltered MANY times, and did a very poor Plan B. But things are better now, and we are in recovery. MC helps tremendously.

How are you set for going to IC?

I am going to IC already. Once every two weeks and she is absolutely amazing.

This has been my first ever 5 days without the kids. I went on a dinner date with a guy that is interested in me. It was a lot of fun and we ended up at a salsa bar dancing salsa til four in the morning. I of course drove home without him afterwards and he knows that I am still grieving my marriage. Yesterday I had a friend over and we just sat and had tea and talked a few hours. I took a long bath, did my nails, feet, gave my hair a treatment, waxed my legs... you know, just took care of myself, listening to music (nothing sad or lovey dovey).

Today I went with a friend to see alot of photo exhibitions which I thoroughly enjoyed...

Has there been no contact. Well, no. Friday afternoon my whole family was booked for a model job, where we had to look like a big happy family, out in the snow chopping down a xmas tree. My WH said that he really enjoyed it and it was nice. I looked at him after the job and just said, " nice, but false". I then jumped into my car, drove home and got ready for my dinner date.

Saturday morning had to go by the old house to pick up our dog and eldest son for dog training. When I came back I said I needed to leave straight away as I had not had breakfast, where WH offered to make some. I allowed him. Ate. Then left.

Nothing dramatic, but also not 100% no contact. Also when I call the kids goodnight my WH picks up the phone and engages in a bit of chit chat. How I slept. How I am. He is coming down with the flu. Telling that our daughter lost a tooth. What do I do? The daughter or children stuff I really want to hear. The rest I just answer kind of politely. Slept fine. I´m O.k, miss kids though. Then he asks only the kids? I say no comment. Very few words. Is that o.k?

Well this is kind of a boring update, but Plan B is not much of a party...Its tough getting used to having all this time to myself and I really look forward to having the kids back on Tuesday again.

Hope you did not fall asleep to it, I nearly did.

Queen

No, didn't fall asleep. Plan B is NO party, but less stressful than dealing with the A day in and day out...we actually get a break from it for awhile.

Is there a way to set a boundary with him on the phone and in person about ONLY talking about kids. Talking about kids is essential. Something like, "Until you have N/C with OW I don't want to know anything about your life, and you don't have a right to know anything about mine, but I do want to hear about the kids."

A big alarm went up when you said you went on a date. Revenge A's are an all too present danger and it is too easy to fall into an EA/PA now. Dating while you're still married is tantamount to infidelity too (and gives the WS something to throw back at you later..."Well you went out too") Please be careful.

Although I've heard of BS insinuating they have been out on dates to WS's ("Can you take the kids early on Friday, I've got to get ready early.") But dates never happen, and it is not a total untruth, you may want to get early to the store to make sure the new book or video isn't sold out.

Anyone else spill the beans about a "possible date" to WS to help them see they are losing you?

Well, it seems like now that I have moved out of our mutual home WS does not want to have anything to do with me. Does not seem like he is coming around and seems very much like he is just interested in his own life and his OW.

No contact has been difficult and out of desperation of not hearing from him, sent him a mail asking what do we plan to do concerning Xmas and New Year with the kids, since we have not agreed on that yet. Have not heard from him, so am actually dreading his answer to be; he will spend Xmas with kids& me, but he will spend New Year with OW.

I am tired, confused, lonely and lack any strength or lust for picking up the pieces of my life. I really feel sad and tearful most of the time, and maybe it is just my impatient nature that won´t accept that something is not happening to restore our marriage.

Problem is I can´t restore it. WS has to want to. I have to wait till he gets there. If ever. Yes, I know and then I need to concentrate on myself and building my own life. But there is something holding me back. I just can´t see myself happy. I have never been alone, truly alone in my whole adult life. I have always shared my life with somebody.

Yet, this is the ultimate lesson to learn to live a good life alone. Where do I start? Where do I find the strength? Even at work I get nothing done, it all seems like a stormy mountain I need to climb and I have no encouragement that I can do it.

Is there anyone down this path that has gotten further than me, that can give me some advice how to get out of this hole?

On the other hand, I don´t even know whether I want my marriage anymore. I don´t know whether my WH was ever good for me, I´m pretty sure he was not. He is having a NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and he has really drained me. I don´t think I have a drop left for him anymore.

Maybe thats why I feel so blue. Maybe I should be getting some medication? Does it help one focus?

I wish sometimes I could escape into that wonderful little bubble of fog and fantasy and escape like he has done. Though I know at the end of the day, it is me that will pay the price of escaping reality.

This is not a good day. Not at all.

queen

((((((((((Queen)))))))))))))

Hugs to you!!!! I know this must be a super hard thing to do.....Plan Bing but I think you need to give it more time, really for him to miss you.

I can't give any advice on anti d's as I have never taken them. Maybe you need to start a new thread asking about them???

Just take care of yourself and your kids.

Your last (?) post sounded so upbeat with the photo exhibit and tea with friends..... It's just a part of the rollercoaster ride in Affair Adventureland!!!!

Take care,
DB

Time, Time, Time. It really does help!!
I was where you are not too long ago, and already I am seeing a significant difference in my attitude and emotional state!
I did not do anti-d's but I did take an over the counter sleep-aid and that made a big difference for me. Sleep deprivation can lead to depression and that lack of concentration feeling...I am no longer taking them, but I definately needed them for about a 4 month period or so.
Take 1 day at a time, don't think too far ahead, holidays, etc. (I tend to do that too!)
I have come a long way in 10 months, you will too, the change occurs gradually. I can't believe this much time has passed already. Check out my recent posts though....there still may be hope, though I am still moving forward with MY recovery.
Hang in there, ride out those bad days...you can do it!

Anyone remember the male friend I told you I had been mailing to at one point to receive support and understanding for the hell I was in?

Remember I told him we had to stop mailing to each other, because he and I were getting involved on an emotional level.

Well, we did stop for approx. 1,5 months. He broke my request for no contact around the time my WH had moved out for a month and I was thinking about finding a new place to live.

I was so happy to receive a mail from him. So happy to hear he thought and worried about me. Happy that someone cared.

Now the past month and a half we have been writing, even met at a cafe for a sandwich, a dinner for a meal. I could feel like I was getting more involved in him and again had to say to him we had to stop. We are about to have an affair. I am too weak, a sucker for love. He too is too weak.

Last Monday, we spent a night together to say goodbye. I told him I would write in six months time to say how I am doing because of the special bond we have for each other. He has been there for me, where my WH has not.

We said goodbye to each other as friends, as lovers. It was the only way. Why was it the only way. Because we cared for each other too much not to do it any other way.

Sound familiar?

Now I can´t sleep at night, and think of him all the time. I have silently allowed myself to drift into the fog of an affair. He mailed me a love poem he wrote himself and said he cannot stop thinking about me either.

How do I feel?

Ashamed that I have allowed this to go so far, when the situation of my WH and myself is not finished yet. Guilty that with the knowledge I have of affairs I do not use it for something more constructive. Relieved that I am no longer consumed of what and where my WH is, because he hardly has any space in my heart anymore. Relieved that my WH can´t hurt me as much because I have been having some of my emotional needs attended to by someone else, like he by the OW.

Happy that I can care and love somebody new and feel that I am also cared for and loved by. Terrified by what I might or might not be doing with myself, my own self development, my life, whether I am capable of making right choices anymore, what is the point of anything, the more you know the less you know. Have a deeper understanding to how my WH could come to make the choices he has done. Realized how little ones feelings and ones logic listen to each other. In the matters of the heart, there is no logic. Love is not logic.

We call it fog. It IS fog. Right now I am in FOG. I know it is fog. Can it be fought? How do you fight something that takes over every cell of your body? I lied in my bed last night and my body built up a fever, because I missed my friend so much. I want him now, more than before.

Why? Because it is impossible. If it was easy the erray of emotions would not be so strong. Its the impossibility that intensifies it all.

I have the power to stop it. NOW. But do I want to? Can I? I want to and have done so. But I am physically reacting, so I cannot think of anything else.

Can you talk reason to me now? Can I talk reason to myself?

I am an intelligent woman. I am caring. I am hurting. I have been betrayed. I love. I give. I protect. I am there where all WS have crossed the line.

I am no longer a BS. I am also a WS.

This is how easy it is. It takes no effort.

I am sorry to dissappoint you. I know what I have done.

-queen of a broken heart-

I don't judge you but see that you have CHOSEN to lead a lifestyle that crushed you when your H did it. Two wrongs don't make a right, as you are now experiencing.

Please think about your precious kids. They have experienced so much trauma already. Are you prepared to inflict more pain on them? One of you has to be strong for them, are you woman enough?

Please face reality and stop this fantasy life. Years from now you will see the fallacy of decisions being made now. So will your H.

By God's grace you can get through this but it's time for some tough decisions and a plan of action. You can do it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"He mailed me a love poem he wrote himself and said he cannot stop thinking about me either"<hr /></blockquote>Ask yourself if the OM agreed to your wishes to say goodbye, why is he then not respecting that agreement? If he truly loved you he would respect your need for goodbye because he would understand that it is too painful for you to continue having a relationship with him while still being a married woman.

Whether you decide to continue your efforts to save your marriage or chose to divorce your WH, the fact remains that you are NOT ready to start another committed relationship, least of all with a man that does not respect the fact that you are a married woman who is still in pain.

Contact is a 2 way street. Making contact and receiving contact.
Just because he sends something doesn't mean you have to read it.

Expect him NOT to stop contact, cause when he does contact you, you respond, therefore (according to him) you don't really mean it.

Hi Queen

I've read through most of this topic, and I am sorry to hear of the lastest development. You might want to consider blocking your OM from being able to email you. TMCM is right that you are not ready for another relationship until the current one is over. That would include dating of any type. My younger brother has done the same thing over and over again. He is currently living with his GF while his current W is living with her XIL and XH. (His second marriage). I'm sure he is both the BS, his first wife had multiple A's (Although I suspect so did he), and his 2nd W also had A's.(And, I don't think he was lonely after she through him out). He had porno, a self masterbator, and other crap. He is one of those "users". I don't think he knows what love is. I do know from what you wrote that you do.

I told you about my YB just to show how someone can really mess up their lives by doing certain actions. My YB has always been the sort to make poor choices. You do not strike me as the same type of person that my YB is. That the OM would choose to take advantage of the situation is a clear picture of his character. (Sorry, just IMHO) And, he does have a flaw in not respecting your wishes and wait to see what happens. Not that he is the total blame for it. Your WH helped a lot with opening that door with his actions, and your pain and sorrow and needs, leaving you vulnerable. Now you need to do total NC.

Now the hard part. You need to tell your WH what has happened, including that you are now NC with the OM. I don't know how you should do it, by letter, or in person. Maybe you could have him come to one of your IC appointment and tell him there. I do suspect what your WH will do, and it won't be good, but it might also be the major wakeup call that he needs. It might also end your M. Sorry to be blunt but thats the possibility.

I will include you on my prayer list. I do wish you the best. I don't judge you because I am just as vulnerable as you, and this is with a repentent FWW, who is helping me to heal. I do hope that your WH will wake up. His fog is dense, and he doesn't realize that he is headed towards the rocks. All you can do is keep your light burning and your fog horn blaring.

Dear Queen:
I'm sorry to hear about this latest chapter in your life.

You've changed the title to "Destroying Your Own Plan". What is your plan? I realize you are in Plan B but are you heading for D? Or just hoping WH will turn around?

What direction do you want your life to go?

BTW, is this OM married?

Could you write a NC letter to your OM? I realize you've already done this once but maybe a renewed one might a good idea.... What does your IC say?

DB

This was a major step...in the right direction? You decide.

Positives...or how it's helpful to your M.
Gives you a new way to view your WH's behavior (from within his shoes).
Gives you some of the missing ENs.

Negatives...or how it's hurtful to your M.
Pulls you away from loving your WH.
You begin entertaining notions of building a life with someone else...may decide to D not because it's best for you...but because you want to continue the feeling of love.
It's an addiction, an escape, and keeps you from thinking straight.
Goes against your value system.

You decide what is best. The addiction has a strong pull, like the best drug around. But the love you feel right now is a very selfish love. You are not looking out for what's best for each other or other people in your lives...you are looking out for what's best in your life...that feeling...that glow...that fever.

I agree that if he really had your best interests in mind he would not have contact with you. He is continuing contact because of what HE wants...not what he thinks is best for everyone.

Think about what it's going to be like when you tell your H about this...

Queen -

You're in a very hard place, and I ask that you take some time for yourself. Look at the last month and the things that have happened -- you moved, you and the kids were very sick, you had the whole dog thing to deal with. You're at the very end of your own emotional resources. It makes sense that falling into someone else's arms would be easy to do.

It's easy for ALL of us to do, something that's worth remembering when we're dealing with our own WSs. It could just as easily be us. I'm both WS and BS, though I've long since NCed all of my affair partners.

You will survive without this man.

You will survive without your WH.

You will survive because YOU are strong. Each day.

I know exactly what you mean about the relief from the incessant thoughts about your WH. There are times when all those thoughts drive me into hysterics just because I cannot get them to stop for five minutes and leave me alone.

And it's true that giving your ego (the part of you that thinks) something else to think about is one possible solution. I've kept mine occupied with feng shui some of the last few weeks.

Any interesting hobby can do that, as can work and kids. The trouble with another PERSON occupying those thoughts, aside from the difficulties it can cause your marriage, is that it shields you from ENDING those thought patterns.

And if you don't end those thought patterns, they're sure to creep up on you again the next time you have trouble in a relationship. And who wants to do THAT again??? Not me, that's for sure!

So I try to watch the thought patterns from "outside," to see where the loop is and how to break out of it. Near as I can figure, the repetition has lots less to do with my WP than it does with my own inability to resolve ... SOMETHING in my own head. I'm trying to figure out what that something is.

So, unpleasant though it is, I'd suggest that you should NC your affair partner. Then watch your thoughts about BOTH your OM and your WH. They're YOUR thoughts, and what you're looking for, I think, is what it means about you. You might want to compare the thought patterns and see where the similarities and differences are. Again, not to compare the two men, but to understand yourself better.

Good luck, Queen, and may BEING bless you.

What's the update?

How are you doing? Haven't heard from you in a while.

Worried about you.

My update.

What is my update? What is my plan? I don´t know anymore. I don´t know whether I have even one tiny litte love unit left on my love account for my WH anymore. Maybe it really went bankrupt. I gave this everything. EVERYTHING. I don´t think there is anymore. If there is I will be suprised.

I feel tired, worn out, mentally drained and need to get my energy back. This OM is fulfilling my EN. Listening, supporting, caring. Fulfilling my needs for SF. Oh yes, it goes two ways, no doubt about that, but it goes two ways with full acceptance of the fact that we are using each other, regaining our self esteem, self confidence, our zest for life again. He is not a bad guy. Not at all.

Is it a quick fix? Maybe. But whatever it is we are as honest as possible about it. Who is he? His wife is on her death bed. He has been hanging in there nurturing her for two years. They have the funeral planned. It could be today, next week. On the inside we are two very sad, very weak persons in alot of pain, but on the outside, look like two very strong, determined, "everything is together" kind of people. No wonder we are like magnets. Our intuition and understanding for each other has a magnitude that I have not experienced before. We are both grieving a loss, together hanging in there...

Am I in plan D. Maybe. I have so little hope and faith. I am trying to find my hope and faith again, trying to hang on to the last shreds of my own sanity.

There is life after. I´m trying to figure out what kind of life there is. Am I weaving a web for myself that I won´t be able to get out of in the long run. I don´t think so.

And yes, if my WH was to ask if I am seeing someone my honest answer would be, yes, I now have a friend and a "lover", who is helping me find my way. Is it long term. Most probably not. I am actually not in love. My feelings towards this man and his feelings towards me are more caring and more based on friendship than passion. Its the root of our friendship that has the stronger pull. Our friendship is the soothing medicine for both of our wounds. Its weird. I have not tried to have this attitude to someone before. Imagine having your very best friend, but the caring goes deeper, so much deeper, on all levels.

Or is this just another fog, that I need to wake up out of. Oh, I think I am so clever. I think I know it all.

I know nothing.

This was not very cheerful now was it? Just being honest.

-queen-

Oh, Queen.... I'm hurting for you and for this man right now. Please, I know it's hard, but please end this relationship. Neither of you is in a place where you can create anything healthy. I know you're acknowledging it, but it still feels to me like a very damaging thing to be doing. Please, end this relationship and focus on the healing you need to do.

And this man... oh Divine, the pain he must be in right now. Please, I know you think he needs you and he does need SOMEONE. Not you, hard though it may seem to you.

HELP!?!

This is all going too fast for me to keep up anymore. I need help from you to do things in slow motion so I can keep up with my own emotions.

You all know I moved out 4 weeks ago. It was so exhausting, painful - I thought I was about to fall into a deep depression. I got really really ill, whilst having the kids and the little one getting ill as well. WH did not care less and was not there for me in any way. This is only 3 wks ago. I felt that he drained the last love unit I had for him. I still feel that.

2 wks ago I went on a dinner date with my e-mail friend. The one who is in a "sorry" situation. Don´t get me wrong, he is not a sorry wimpling. He is a very strong and very courageous man, that has shown his wife and his family (and continues to do so) ALL the nurturing and caring that can be given in a very tough time in their lives. He is a man with his own business, but that prioritizes his family at all times. Even though he and I have made a very strong connection, we know that right here and now, the only thing we can relate to each other with is our friendship and the openness and honesty that goes with it.
Call it an EA, even though we have ventured into the physical aspect of it when we said goodbye.

We continue now as supportive friends and he has helped me to realize who I am and what are the things that really mean something to me. He is the first man to "see" me and knows by instinct what I stand for.

You have to understand, outwards I look like a high society party girl - designer labels, travel abroad, gourmet food, socializing with the important and beautiful. This is how I am perceived. But deep down, the most important things for me are very simple; a walk in the forest hand in hand, sitting at a beach, throwing pebbles into the waves, watching my kids smile, helping my friends find their way to their own personal happiness, talking to my family. These things are the REAL me. NOBODY, and I mean any man that I have had a relationship, has understood who I am, and I know that I give mixed signals because I am very cautious in opening up. I have opened up to my WH many times, but he chose to ignore the real me and concentrate on the "other" me. My new friend has touched the real me from day one, and knows what the "other" me is all about too.

O.K? With me so far.

Well, my new friend has helped me understand that there are people out there that can care for me as a whole person, not just a bit here and there. He has helped me build my self-esteem, I stand stronger. We said goodbye, but it did not work. We have agreed to be friends, because we contribute good to each other. There is nothing destructve, no demands, no expectations, just plain simple care.

Since last Saturday I have been feeling "hunted" by my WH. I have Plan B´d him almost to perfection (a few side messages here and there, but mostly about kids). Since Saturday he has sent me mails, called kids, sent text messages - bombarded me.

Monday morning I received a mail.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hi my dear,

Please reserve 28/11 - 1/12 in your calendar... And you need to inform your work you wont be there as well (if you want to that is...)

Kiss WH <hr /></blockquote>I answered him back that I´m sorry but that is not possible, besides my brother is flying in that weekend so I also have other plans...

He then writes me back, that I should really reconsider, because he has already bought tickets to NEW YORK! (I´m in Denmark, remember!)

I
My friendship with this other man is not an issue at all here. There are no ties. The issue is whether I want to even try. The issue is that if I do give it the last chance (and then my friendship with OM will have to subside, as my WH would probably feel very threatened), do I believe my WH is sincere at all...

Has ANYBODY out there had it like this. Please?

-Queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Oh and just got a reply to the New York mail, which goes like this;

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Dear Queen,

...And I did this for us (and to show you I want to share exciting and special moments with you my wife)...

But I guess I will have to try to get them to change the ticket for somebody else :-( Or just go alone!

WH<hr /></blockquote>This REALLY makes me think whether he is sincere or not.

I´m sorry but I think this is a load of babble.
Am I right?

-queen-

[ November 05, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

Queen, it sounds to me like he's testing your boundaries to see how serious you are. He's smarter than most -- he's testing with honey instead of sticks, but he's still testing. No promises and he wants you to go to Newe York with you? That's a lovely offer, but it's not what you want and you're right to turn him down.

I suspect that as you continue to say no, he'll get ugly and start making demands and things. Stay the course!

queen of..

OUCH>...!!

fell off my chair reading the email from the teenager attempting to barter for what he wants from you....

I was hoping New York could do this for us!

translated...new york will be sooo much of a distraction we can have great sf when we get caught up in the excitement and never really discuss anything or resolve anything....

The point is I really miss you, and if we could agree on some terms your ULTIMATUM might be the solution for us both

some terms EXCEPT the part about giving up other WOMEN all together...he doesn't quite see the value in that part...

but I need to know where you are, how you feel, what you do, why you have done the things you have and why you do the things you do...

tell him to re-read the plan B letter again then ask him how does he get so far in business if he can't grasp the simplicity of the plan b letter and what is expected of him... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
ok lb I know..!!!!

fog remains present with zero-zero visibility...

ark

Hi Queen

From the mail you quoted he is trying to manipulate you. Its always better to catch flys with honey then viniger. Keep doing Plan B. If you have a saved copy of your Plan B letter, I would just start sending him a copy of that anytime he sends you email.

As for your OM, I would send him a NC letter. You wrote to the OW that you no longer wanted to be in the triangle, but you've formed a square. You your WH, OM and OMW. Your OM should be consintrating on his W. And, if your still working on your M even in Plan B your energy needs to be on that. If need be after sending your OM the NC letter block his address.

Just J is right, your WH will probably start using a stick. You need to prepare for that.

Stay Strong,

Wow, this struck me too

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The point is I really miss you, and if we could agree on some terms your ULTIMATUM might be the solution for us both - but I need to know where you are, how you feel, what you do, why you have done the things you have and why you do the things you do... <hr /></blockquote>Yikes!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He wants to know how much you're willing to put up with. And then telling you he'll take someone else... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Oh my!!!

The fog is thickest before it lifts? Lets hope so.

I think you can pretty much count on him knowing that you've been seeing someone else, and now he's scared he can't come home. And he's trying to get you to same place by threatening he won't come home. Part of Plan B is also getting used to the idea he may not come back...seems like you've been doing a royal (pardon the pun) job of that.

I agree with ark...I would simply reply "Refer to email on such-n-such date."

Boy is he testing you....this is a good sign. She's not giving him everything he needs. He's missing you because you gave him more than she does...

You are the whole package.

Now...the part about how you were never understood by your WH. How is that going to change when/if you reconcile? Back to the status quo? Or is it time for Queen to show her true self and give WH the option to bow out ("This is who I REALLY am and if you don't like me, then please save me the hurt and move along.")? I guess in one of your emails to him you could mention about how you're learning about yourself and who you really are.

And about the OM...please see the fog for what it is...he is in the right place at the right time. He sees you this way because this is the you you're showing right now. He's M too? His W will need to know too. And don't beleive what he tells you about his R...probably his facts are a little lopsided.

Well, I've just spent about an hour reading this entire thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Queen, your "journey" certainly has been a twisting and turning one!

The only advice I have at this juncture is to write WH a one-line answer re: the invitation to NY.

"What about OW?"

That's really the crux of all this, isn't it? Is he ready to meet the criteria necessary for rebuilding the M?

Take care of yourself.

Queen,

I agree with the posters above. But I will add something. I believe your WH is trying to find a way home...to see if it is possible. Go to the thread of "Want My Wife Back" and see what I wrote him a few days ago. About the process of the WS during Plan B. He is now testing the waters. He is now seeing, since you are dark, what is there. He wants the cake eating, the fence. He DOES NOT want to lose you.

I too started talking to someone while I was in Plan B. I too started feeling like I was done with my wife. And it was at THAT point, that she came around. she even found out the first night she came by that I was having contact with someone else.

The point here is this. First of all, if you dont want the marriage...then end it. Then other men will be available (but NOT other married men!). But if you have one inkling that this might be him pulling his head out, then you must first go NC with your OM.

Now, what do you do with this trip to New York, and other stuff. Do not go! You are in Plan B. But, I am suggesting something a little off the track here. I have written on this before. It is called the transition period, and you can go back to Mimis threads from a few months ago to get the jist of that. But, in the transition period, the WS will be feeling things out. Where are you? Do you have someone else? Is it still possible to get back what they have destroyed? And so on.

If you stubbornly stand in the corner and stay completely dark, they might take that as a yes, I am gone. But, you are in Plan B. So what do you do?

Set up a meeting with him. Sit down face-to-face. That way, he will see the sincerity in your eyes, and in his. Then, you tell him again about the PBL. You tell him again that until the affair has ended, that it is not possible for you to do anything like New York. That you must protect yourself...and more importantly, your love for him.

Tell him the truth. Tell him you are beginning to pull away. Tell him that you feel that it wont take too much longer and you will not be able to recover this. Tell him it all.

Then calmly end the dinner and tell him that should he end things with the OW, agree to counseling, and agree to the Harley plans for recovery, that you will entertain the idea of going away. The Harleys even suggest that it is a good idea to go away for a couple weeks early on in recovery.

Tell him that it is not over, but that it is getting there. That this marriage, this family, and everything to do with it, will now depend on him doing the right things...and showing you how much he values you. He must understand that it is him that must do this.

But dont lie to him, Queen. If you are done with this marriage, dont make him go through all of this, just to kick him out. If you dont want it, say so. If you are not sure, then I would say that you still want it. You will KNOW when you dont want it.

He will pressure, make demands, and put everything on you. Dont you do it. Put it LOVINGLY right back on him. He HAS to do the work...otherwise he will fall away again and/or you will not trust his sincerity.

I believe this is a good sign. He is at this point, just as he said, because he misses you. Let him know that you are still there...right where he left you. And if he wants you, then he will do what it takes to come get you.

YOU are worth that. And he needs to know that again.

In His arms.

[ March 15, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Oh, Queen - if these emails are real - you've got to send them in to some contest or something for: Can You Believe They Could Say Somthing that Stupid????? You would win!!!!!! Or should I say - he would win the award for saying the most stupid things????????

Keep them around for a good laugh!!!

And keep your chin up - you are doing a great job at replying!

My favorite quote of his was this:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> and like I told OW lately I also need to take care of me <hr /></blockquote>But the one about him "running out of energy" was good too!

DB

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If you should ever find the energy and love for me you have claimed to have - write or call me - but dont show up... Right now I will rip your head of since I really think you have proven what as arsehole and ****head you are and have been... Your latest actions so much resemble the way you have treated me for years - so maybe I shouldnt be surprised!
<hr /></blockquote>I would take his word very seriously on this, (ooops, sorry I had you confused with Queen of a Broken Arm) especially since he has already broken your arm.

This man is sick, sick, sick....RUN! I think he trying to see if he can still manipulate you.

Susan

[ November 10, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]

If you're in Plan B, then do NOT read his emails (this is part of the NO CONTACT)(perhaps briefly glance at it and see if he ended his affair).

Do NOT respond to his comments.

Hi Queen

I grabbed this late but...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Right now I have the feeling you are breaking some of our mutual promises - I have the feeling you are seeing somebody new and that you have opened your home and maybe even our kids to that person. Maybe I am wrong - but since you have choosen silence - your actions leads me to that conclusion. Am I right - are we that far from each other now?
<hr /></blockquote>Say again???? Isn't he the one that started not one but several A's thru ur M??? Has he ended it??? So WHO IS THE ONE breaking some of our mutual promises ???

Sorry this just poped to my eyes and made me really angry. He still wants to manipulate you... and reading the following after this, seems JJ "saw" the future?

Keep strong Queen!!! Take care

[ November 10, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: matilde ]

Okay, Queen, I'm going to dissect YOUR e-mail. Forget his; we know he's in a fog and can't be helped much at the moment. So let's look at you.

And before I dissect it, I want to say this: DON'T SEND HIM E-MAIL. No calls, no letters, no nothing!!! You're in Plan B, so STOP CONTACTING YOUR SPOUSE.

Was that enough of a 2x4?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dear WS,

What part of the last 9 months do you NOT understand?
<hr /></blockquote>This is an Angry Outburst and also disrespectful.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Was it...
1) The first 5-6 months, where I put myself through mental hell to get you to realize how much I loved and cared for you?<hr /></blockquote>You're not telling him how you feel and asking for changes in his actions. You're trying to make him feel guilty enough to punish him into doing what you want. YOU chose to put yourself through that Hell. It's not his fault that you did that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To hope that you would see how much we had to fight for? To get you to STOP contact with this woman and put your time and effort on your marriage to me and the family we have/had?<hr /></blockquote>You're not calmly, courteously, and respectfully asking for what you want. You're beating him over the head with all the things YOU'VE done that make you "deserve" an appropriate response from him.

That's not gonna work.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) The around 6 months mark where you shocked the living life out of me with your multiple affairs for YEARS, where I was very confused, baffled and devastated, not knowing whether to give up or not, because still having feelings for you?<hr /></blockquote>Uh, you're attacking him for being honest with you. YES, these things hurt, but what's the message here? Sounds like you don't want to know about what's going on with him. Bad move. And you're still trying to give him a guilt trip. Yes, you've been hurt. So just say it. "I was confused, baffled, and devastated when I learned of your other affairs." See, that's not so bad, is it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3) Or is it the last episode when I moved out and said to you...

a) I need to protect whatever there is left for you if there is even the smallest chance for us in the future. (I did not want to end up hating you!) Telling you I hoped it would one day still be us and I did not want a divorce?<hr /></blockquote>Okay, what was the goal, here, except to alleviate your own feelings by loading them onto him? All you had to say was, "Please don't contact me until your relationship with OW is over." That would be enough for ALL of this. Rehashing the reasons why is NOT NECESSARY.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />or was it the....
b) removal of myself from the hell triangle and have little/barely anything to do with you until there is no contact with OW or any of your affairs ever again?<hr /></blockquote>Ok, you said this already. Once is really quite enough.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />or is it...
c) the fact that I needed to and have begun to build my own life, take care of myself, learn to feel and know who I am, where I stand, become stronger, less needier... and give the best I can to our children...without you, ...because the more time there went with this scenario....the less chances there were for us.<hr /></blockquote>Hello??? What the heck are you doing, here? You're telling this man that you think it's over! If it is, then TELL HIM and get on with your life. If not, then don't make these threats because they WILL NOT WORK.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will say it one last time, until there is NO CONTACT and you have proven it, then we really do not have anything to talk about, at least not in terms of us, my feelings or yours.<hr /></blockquote>This isn't bad, except that courtesy doesn't usually involve YELLING, even via e-mail.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I NEVER invited this person in our life together. I NEVER accepted it during the last 9 months (or all the other women the whole five years) and I DO NOT accept it now. <hr /></blockquote>Uh, I'm sure he knows all this, and the way you phrase it makes it sound like an angry outburst rather than providing information.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will also not open my heart and soul to you again to just get it all trampled over with no empathy or respect for me as a person with others in the equation, BUT if and when they/she are/is gone and I do open my heart and soul once again to you, I also EXPECT empathy and respect from you for me as Queen the woman, Queen the wife, and Queen the mother of our children and you can expect the same from me towards you. Without empathy and respect, there is nothing.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, that's not a bad sentiment, but you're still shouting it. All you have to say is "It is important to me to live in an environment where I am respected and where I am treated with compassion."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If and when OW is gone, you have proven it to me AND you are sincerely interested in finding a way, or just plain finding answers to what went wrong, you can come knocking at my door and I will open it. <hr /></blockquote>Urgh. You did all right until the "you can come knocking at my door" part. That's disrespectful.

Instead, "When I'm convinced that OW is no longer in contact with you, then let's talk about our marriage and our future."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I cannot promise you that there is a way for us, but I can promise you that I will give it one last shot with everything I have got, for the sake of our kids and my own future, knowing that all stones were unturned TOGETHER.<hr /></blockquote>This is good, though I might have worded it a little differently.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am not naive. To do that will be one hell of a rollercoaster. Do I really need any more rollercoaster rides? Have I REALLY got the energy for it anymore? Do you? Well, maybe I just have more determination than you do. If you choose not to, well, thats your choice. I have given it the best I had in me and I can live with it.<hr /></blockquote>This is a disrespectful judgement and/or negative mindreading. You've asked the question and then assumed the worst possible answer. You don't know whether he has more to give or not.

Okay, ready for the next letter? Here we go!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />First - there is nothing SUDDEN, about any of my actions. My speed and pace is "almost" still, and there is nothing you or anybody can say or do that can get me to jump right now. <hr /></blockquote>This is a disrespectful judgement. HE thinks your move was sudden. Why are you questioning what he thinks? You can express surprise that he thinks that because to you it feels still, but you can't jump all over him for his perceptions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do not need parties, New York trips, the rush and flush of excitement. You are right to know that I enjoy those things, but you are wrong to think they would give me any satisfaction of fulfillment right now.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, this is good information to give him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If thats what YOU are looking for short or long term, you are looking the wrong direction.<hr /></blockquote>This is negative mindreading again. You're reading things into his actions that may or may not be there. No matter how well you know him, you don't know what he's thinking.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Second - I am no victim.<hr /></blockquote>True. Still, he's again given you valuable information. He thinks you're acting like a victim. In most situations, I would suggest that you follow that up with, "I'm surprised at this. Could you expand on what makes you see me acting like a victim?"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Third - You are absolutely right, all trust is broken.<hr /></blockquote>This one is fine.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And right now, I think I have said enough for a while. I have our darling children and myself to nurture.<hr /></blockquote>Errr, GUILT TRIP. If you're going to end an e-mail, just END it. You're rubbing his nose in what he's doing wrong. I'm sure it makes you feel a little better, and it also makes him less likely to want to deal with you.

Whew. Okay, I'm done. And again, YOU'RE IN PLAN B. So don't talk to him at all!!!!

queen,

YOU GO GIRL!!! good for you!! I like your spunk!!

I actually thought your responses were direct, showed confidence and got your point across that you are not going to hang around and accept his excuses any more, and if he doesn't like it, then SO BE IT...

No matter what the others say here about the way you are handling things, the MAIN things to consider are this...

YOU ARE FEELING BETTER

HE IS STARTING TO WORRY BECAUSE HE SENSES YOU ARE LETTING GO.....

The stronger you present yourself to him, the more it will draw him to you...

Keep listening to what your heart has been telling you. You do not have to sit back and let him do all the venting and complaining about where the relationship went wrong. Now that he is seeing that you were not so happy with his behavior, it WILL and HAS gotten him to think....

As far as the "friend".. It is YOUR choice..
If having him for a friend is helping you to get back your self esteem, then you do not need any persons "permission" on this site. It is your life. It may work out or it may not, but you sound like you are finally coming to a place where you are tired of the pain and the run around and I for one think it is a good place to keep striving for....

Acting confident is very seldom talked about or discussed on this site, even though CONFIDENCE is almost ALWAYS what both sexes say is one of the most important things that ATTRACT the other sex....

You are sounding pretty confident in your responses to him, and in my experience,and study over a lot of years of what happens when a WS comes back, you ARE on the right track for him to come back STRONG, because you will not accept anything less.. Good for you...

I always tried to follow KEEPMV's advice. He seldom posts but when he does it is right on target!

It is so true about the importance of developing self-confidence. It has been clear to me that my FWH continues to find my newly-developed sense of self, developed during PLAN B, extremely attractive.

I have also noticed ,as KEEPMV has reminded me, the importance of making him realize how other men are interested in me. He does not want to admit to his jealousy but it is there! I think men must like the challenge. Also, he must want to feel that he has captured someone of value. I tell him things ON PURPOSE now. For example, yesterday I told him how my dr., on an office visit yesterday ,complimented me on my shoes. He questioned me about what the dr. said this morning while he took the time out to polish my shoes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It's starting to be predictable.

Q,

I think you need to keep your responses short, very short and sweet. Don't teach him anything. He needs to talk and you need to just respond enough to know you have read his response.

He is reaching out and in a sick way, he is asking to come back. But his current condition is not safe for you so don't drop all and run to him. Nope, he needs to come home to his family on their terms not his.

As for his troubling babbling (sad and anger phases), don't respond to it. Don't teach him anything (said again for emphasis not being senile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

You could respond, like: Yep, me too. Or Ok.

He is saying he needs you, may even be telling the OW that. Imagine what kind of LBing that could set the OW to do!!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So you need to be short and sweet. I would respond if you were in plan B because it is respectful but the less you say the less he can pick on you. Remember he is wacked out so he may take your words and twist it into a dagger, all the more reason to be short and sweet.

You'd better read, "love must be tough" by Dr. James Dobson. Then come back and post.

hugz,
L.

I always tried to follow KEEPMV's advice. He seldom posts but when he does it is right on target!

Thanks Mimi,

Yes, I followed your situation and thought you did very well. Your confidence was a big key in your situation and a very important reason that he came home.

I have found that many people on this site are not open to any other ideas or methods than Plan a or Plan B... Even though there is MUCH evidence that there are some other things that not only WORK, but work quite well. Instead of asking themselves if what I say really makes sense, they want to argue with it if it has even a hint of something that could possibly go against something in the Harley ideas.

I am sure some of them want to say things like."then why are you on here?" or," this is a Marriage Builders site" I ask back to them... Do you agree with EVERYTHING and every idea that Harley has on every issue? I don't. That doesn't mean he does not have some good ideas. I am just not going to blindly follow those ideas if I have seen reality show me that there are other things I have seen to work BETTER....

I have been at this a long time, and am not in a crisis, but actually in a very good, loving relationship. I have studied and researched almost anything I can get my hands on of what really happens when a WS comes back.

People on here really want to believe that it is the Plan B with a good Plan A that is the thing that has the best chance of success. I believe that they are missing the mark on that conclusion...

Why? Because if it was all about meeting "needs"(plan A), then why don't they come back to you with a good plan A?..Why do they come back more often when you STOP meeting their "needs"? (plan B).. then when they reconcile and you start to meet their needs again, then why do they start having withdrawal?

In my studies and research, I started to view REALITY. Reality is just the study of what REALLY happens and not of what I want to happen or what I FEEL about issues. I saw more and more that the BS who is successful almost always had come to the point where they had convinced the WS that they had let go and really did not care one way or another what happened. They had stopped all pursuit and pressure, they had developed more self esteem and confidence and were actually behaving more like a WS does. Also, another common thing that I kept seeing again and again is that the BS had a "friend" that they were interested in , which helps even more to let the WS PERCEIVE that the BS has let go... Once the WS has that "sense" that you may have really let go,it releases all the pressure to make the relationship work, and almost like a suction, they drift back toward the BS. Once they start to come back toward the BS, the BEST thing the BS can do to prevent "withdrawal" of the WS from the OP is to start to use the methods that the WS was using that caused the BS to panic when it happened to them. Telling them things like..."maybe this was for the best, and I now see that I was not happy either, and I am not sure what I want right now,etc. etc."

You need to make them go through the same pain you went through. Why? Because it is the CRISIS of losing you that gets them to WANT to do the work necessary for the relationship to work. They do it because of the pain, just like you did. Most people do not have the confidence and self esteem to hold back and allow this to happen, so they go through months and months or even years of trying to get the relationship back on track.

I tell them there are other ways that work just as well if not better, and FASTER.. (nope they don't want to even consider anything else)(closed minds)

If you sift through the threads of most of the WS on this site who are trying to get back with their spouses, study what their partners have done. Did Jen Browns BS do a plan A? Did he do a plan B letter?.. I did not see either of those plans in his efforts. Why did she want him back then, even though he has NEVER tried to meet any of her needs.. What about Hopeful Person, or Diamond Girl? Why do they want to come back even though there has been no Plan A or Plan B or meeting of "needs"? Not only that, but they STILL want reconciliation and have actually been rejected time and time again...

You see, nobody wants to consider that maybe there could possibly be other methods. Check out Mortarmans thread when his wife wanted to reconcile. My opinion is it had less to do with Plan B and MORE to do with she started to "sense" he was letting go. If you go back and look at the threads he wrote, it really did look like he was ready to move on.(he also had a "friend",even though he does not think that was a factor, I DO)

I say to study reality and do what works. Reality shows me that it is the perception of letting go that is the catalyst. Plan B does help that because as time goes on the WS starts to wonder if they have gone too far. That is why Plan B works...

[ March 15, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Queen:

Your post made me want to cry.

My FWH's long-term A started just like the relationship you are talking about now. You are having an Emotional Affair. There is a high likelihood that it will eventually become physical. I had to fight the temptation to talk to other men. It feels good now but you are going down the same road as your WH. If you continue with it, there is no chance that you will reconcile with your husband.

I believe in marriage. There should be no outside relationships with another man.

Honestly, my WH said the same things you are saying about his OW. She listened to me, understood me, etc. Of course, this can happen in a new relationship.

Please stop it!

Your situation is such a trigger for me. I will stop now before I say the wrong thing to you. I really wish you well. Do the right thing if you really believe in MB principles.

Hi Queen

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am ready to move on. I am not sure whether my husband is the kind of husband I really want. My lover/friend (this is NOT an affair) is my channel of becoming stronger. My talks with him have opened up windows I have not seen before. I am no longer blinded by the dream of my WH is the ONE. He is not the end of the world. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry the pain that you have been going through. But in this quote you need a reality check. Your still married, and you are having and EA/PA. You can call it a ONS or anything else, but it doesn't change it for what it is. Until a D is final it is an Affair. Sorry if this hurts or causes you pain, but you are to good of a person to delude yourself. You are very special, your heart has been hurt, and you do deserve to be treated better then you have.

Your channel of strength has always been in yourself, take what you've learned, use it.

Now, what do you want to do? You've Plan A'ed, Your Plan B'ing, and your now ready to move on. What do you want to do? It is strange that some WS's are happy to have their cake until they see that their BS is ready to move on.

You'll be in my thoughts and my prayers.

I have not sent this letter yet, and just when I was about to hit the enter button in sending it, I thought I HAD to run it by MB before I did it.

I really feel like I have given this everything and need to be in Plan D. To let go and to move on. The only thing that holds me back is my own fear of survival. My fear of the kids not having the "family". My fear of being alone. Its fear of the unknown.

Do I have an inkling of a feeling left for WH. Yes. yes and yes. But its just a dream. He will never be the husband I wished for. He knows nothing about being two, being us, being a family. He knows everything about being a teenager living his own selfish life. I really truly do not believe he is capable of changing that. Ever. He is the "playboy for life" type.

Well this is the letter I plan to send him;

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dear WS,

This weekend my eyes opened.

I want to move on with my life.

I thought I could just wait and see, but I am tired of not knowing where my commitment is.

To a marriage to a husband that is not there, and never really has been there. A husband that has been fxxxxg around left right and centre, living another life behind my back for our entire marriage, because he didn´t have the courage to be a man and say he was unhappy/dissatisfied/ whatever? To a husband that STILL has no courage to face the demons with me?

Or do I commit to a life for myself finding the happiness, love and commitment I believe I deserve and I know I can get?

I was a loyal, faithful and patient wife to you out of my very strong love for you, which you obviously did not feel or respect. I have been through hell and back with you, stood by you through the worst in EVERY imagineable way. (no I don´t believe I am a saint, but I bloody do know how to commit to something I believe in, to someone I love deeply - be it a ****ty situation or not).

After the "wake up" call with your latest affair there was NOTHING, no stone I would have left unturned, nothing, I would not have done to find a way for us to find a happy and fulfilling life together - even if it meant bending the rules a bit or finding new ones - for us. There never was an us.

I have repeated it over and over again that I would just not accept ANY women in our marriage outside the boundaries we set. They had to go.

You have rejected everything.

You have rejected My love. You have rejected My patience. You have rejected My forgiveness. You have rejected My Hope and Belief in us. You have rejected Us. You have rejected Our family. You have rejected any chance to put it back together again. (and if you think buying tickets to NY without consulting / respecting me and my plans or time, was giving it a chance - then think again!).

I am not some dumb bimbo. I understand what you continue not saying to me.

You continue your contact. I wish you well. You can give this mail to her as a Xmas Present for the both of you! I´m sure she will be as thrilled as you are!

I can´t do it anymore, even though I still have feelings for you and probably always will.

What is it they say;? Watch out what you wish for, you might get it. Well you do.

Lets talk divorce.

Queen

P.S.
Oops, my choice again!
Because I´m the only one having the balls in this relationship to make one!<hr /></blockquote>-comments before i send it?

Dear Queen:

What are you hoping to gain by sending the letter?

I could go through and comment on each sentence or paragraph but what would be the point? I think you are sending it to cause a rise out of him or get him to respond back and again I say, what to you hope to gain by sending the letter?

If you really want to file for divorce, file for divorce, but what explanation is needed?

I think maybe just a short note, saying, "I'm ready to file, or would you rather be the one?"
is sufficient.

JMVHO,
DB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Queen of a broken heart:
 I really feel like I have given this everything and need to be in Plan D. To let go and to move on. The only thing that holds me back is my own fear of survival. My fear of the kids not having the "family". My fear of being alone. Its fear of the unknown.
<hr /></blockquote>I am a big believer in "if you can honestly say you have tried everything possible", then you can move forward with a clear conscience.

As far as the letter, it sounds like you are trying to hurt him and make him feel bad, and it doesn't seem like that's productive in any way. If it makes you feel better to write it down and throw it away, then by all means do it (I kind of like to print mine out and then burn them). But what good, what growth, what positive will come out of sending a letter like that to him? I think modifying to something like this would be enough:


This weekend my eyes opened.

I want to move on with my life.

I thought I could just wait and see, but can't. I can´t do this anymore, even though I still have feelings for you and probably always will.

I will be filing for divorce.

Queen

I agree about the letter, KS's letter is short and to the point.

Eventually he will wake up and realize what he has lost.

Queen, I'm opposed to you sending this letter in any form. It's just full of hurt, of wanting to punish him for what he's done. At its core, it's a last stand plea for him to see the error of his ways.

It will not work.

Please, don't do this. Stay dark, stay cool, stay on track. You -can- do this. You haven't yet turned every stone. You haven't turned the stone of silence. Until you do, there is one that remains before divorce.

Just J.

Why, why, why, why do you really think I should stay dark. You always get me to reconsider, stop and wonder?

I am not sure you are right, of course you aren´t either, but your words are an irritating little buzz in my ear.

I have been my WH greatest addiction, because I was living close to him -even though it wasn´t good for me. I knew he wasn´t good for me, because during my eight years with him I turned from being a happy, playful, loving person to a sad, passive introvert.

I couldn´t really care less about my own life. My WH couldn´t really care less about how my life was doing. All we ever talked about was him, his dreams, ideas, work...

When I moved to this country (with my then 2yr old son) and was deeply in love with my WH, I knew that I would learn the language and find a job and get myself a new life. I had done it before and I could do it again. I have a university business degree and a track record in both languages and career that couldn´t stop me. But I had done all this before with support. My WH was my only support and he wasn´t there. He didn´t care about how I was doing, how I was handling it. He just expected me to do it. Well, that didn´t end very well and within a year I became very depressed. I got pregnant with our daughter and the depression got worse.

Did my WH wake up and help, support me? No, his selfish self, said to him, oh queen is not giving me SF, queen is not giving me kisses when I walk through the door, queen is not this, not that. This man knows I am having a depression and all he thinks about is his needs? One day he comes home and I am standing there with my big tummy, him babbling about his work, his ideas and then starts complaining about why I didn´t kiss him when he walked through the door and it snaps. I start shouting and crying at him that I can´t take it anymore - can´t he for once stop talking about him and ask how I am doing?

He gets in a rage and throws me out of our mutual appartment, whilst I am pregnant. And because at this point my depression is so deep that I am on the verge of being suicidal, I run barefoot (midwinter) on the street and try to think where to go, what to do, because I am never going back to this lunatic again.

My protective instinct was obviously so strong that I found myself in front of a psychiatric emergency unit, and spend the night there talking to a psychologist that tells me I need help.

I had never been pushed to this limit before.

For my WH, all of this, is just a game. He does not see that if you do A you get the reaction B. Right now the thing that baffles him is that his latest affair ended up with her getting a divorce and me moving out. Oops. There are consequences to ones actions!

The only reason my WH would turn around and want back is his own selfish need for other women. I am bi. After the wake up call, my WH and I explored my bi-side together. With another couple. With another girl. The girl thing was a fiasco, because she was only interested in my WH because of our status. The couple thing was fun and a success to some extent, but because of the whole horrid situation with my WH, it was still not what I wanted. I did not feel safe, loved or protected.

Now, my WH is thinking, WOW! I could do all these things with Queen. So I can have it all. He is not thinking about me at all. Because if he did, he would be interested in knowing what I want, how to go slowly and surely ahead to repair all the damage, to rebuild trust. For me to be convinced that it is really me he loves. The NY trip was another one of his highs. Another hope for a wild time with Queen.

This is where he is at. Where he has always been. Our mutual friends ask me, Queen, do you really think he will change?

The answer to that question is NO. He won´t. But, if he does it will be in 10 yrs time. I don´t have 10 yrs to wait until he grows up.

I really deserve better. So do our children.

I can only make changes for me. Divorce is one of them.

Just J. I still won´t send the ultra shortened version of the letter until I have heard what you have to say. I know you all think I still love him, and maybe I still do. I am curious to your whys? You are an intelligent woman, with a highly developed senses & instincts. And of course what I have written is just a drop in the sea. But can´t you sense my desperation of saying no to the life I have lived and to find a more deeper, fulfilling one?

-queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Your story has touched me and my knee jerk instinct is to say...dump his 4$$. But that's not why you're here.

I too have been in a relationship for over 10 years with a Passive-Aggressive (very similar to narcissist) and have waited all this time for him to GROW UP.

Hate to say this now, but the A was the wake up call our M needed. Plan A was OK, I made some real changes in my attitude and got put on medicine that has really helped my mood swings. But it didn't seem to help him. Of course we had to move to Plan B. I did a horrible Plan B, we had continued contact because he was a stay at home dad...our contact had to be about the kids. But he moved out and I set boundaries of when he was allowed to be in our lives...our family vacation was without him...our family events did not include him. It was a tough time.

A wise person told me that she has talked with SO MANY people that have divorced and regretted it later. I kept that in mind when I moved to Plan B and I tried to make it seem as close as possible to what it would feel like after we were divorced...business-like communication, and he didn't get to share in my joyful life.

I had given him a Plan B letter...but not a very good one (just one where I told him the rules...we would not share our house or our lives with him as a family). There was a major turn around when I gave him the Plan B letter that laid out conditions for him to come home. There were 5 things that were important to me...N/C letter (and no contact), Counseling, Medicine, Truth and accountability, more time spent with the family. That day he resented being told he had to do these things...I told him he didn'thave to, it was his choice...put that way he decided to make a change.

I hear in your posts that you are willing to give up....but you're not. You are still holding out hope for him to change...

Unfortunately we can't do anything to make a person change...they have to do it on their own.

The reason we are telling you to stay dark is so he can get an idea of what it is like to be divorced...truly divorced...what life will be like without Queen. And for you to protect the love you have, or get used to being divorced too. You have nothing to lose...if you are ready to divorce, pretend you are already.

The more email or contact you have with him, the more engaging with him you do, the less likely he will miss you, and the more you will be hurt by his actions (or inactions.)

You are strong.

If you are truly ready to divorce...go ahead. I think you are still holding out for him to pull his head out.

Perhaps a letter that gives terms for a renewal of the M and a time limit.

I get the idea you have a hard time asking for what you want in this M and he bowls you over with his wants and needs. Time for Queen to ask for what she wants and needs?

[ November 25, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]

Update.

It is Thursday today. On Monday evening after I posted my divorce letter on MB I was feeling so much anger and resentment towards my WH that it overwhelmed me.

I wrote him a message telling him that I was now at the end of my rope and he could take the champagne bottle out to celebrate, because I was now heading for divorce.

He wrote back and couldn´t understand what had happened. Of course not, I´m in Plan B. He hasn´t known what I have been going through.

Tuesday he messaged me to ask whether I would come by with kids to see lord of the rings extended version. I said yes, because I figured now I would give him a long letter explaining that I was tired of living like this "in-the-middle", stuck. I wanted to move on with my life.

I went by Tuesday evening and he had made food, bought a beautiful xmas decoration for me, poured me a glass of wine and gave me a big strong hug. I felt like I was being sucked in again and lost my footage(mentally). We ate, and thankfully I had to go and pick up our eldest son from his climbing class and go back to my WH place. Sitting in the car I managed to recollect myself, take some deep breaths and "de-suck" myself out of his sphere.

I came back and we stood and talked. I made the first move asking him if he was still seeing and talking to the OW. He said yes. I told him I was so sick and tired of this that it was time for me to move on. Nothing is going to change and nothing will. He asked me whether I was seeing someone and I said yes, I have a friend. That seemed to rock him totally and he started telling me that how could I deceive him like this, considering that I promised him I would never do anything of the likes.

I just said, well, the situation changed. I was unrealistic. I thought I was stronger. Obviously I wasn´t. I told him that I have written a letter to him and that he should read it. He took it and threw it into the fireplace. He continued to say that he has been missing me and the kids like crazy and that he has just really being needing to talk to me. That he has been trying really hard to get through to me. I disagreed with him and told him that he has not been trying at all.

That if his trying was the trip to NY then he was trying in the wrong way - I did not want the highs anymore.

He said that he bought the trip to NY because he just wanted to talk and that he had actually arranged something nice for us. I said it didn´t matter, the whole arrangement was over my head, and he did not respect or take into consideration that I might not want to go.

Then I went to the toilet and saw a facial cream I had not seen before. Coming out of the toilet there were a pair of womens prada running shoes in the hallway -not mine.

I flipped out completely. Yes the lots. Anger. Disrespectfullness. The works. I told him that I really meant it when I said I would never come back to that house if the OW set foot on our mutual territory. He started defending himself that he did not understand it like that.

I told him I didn´t care and I didn´t know whether I had any feelings left for him anyway and just jumped into my car and left.

He sent messages telling me that he did not understand my anger, considering my own deceipt. Right.

In the morning he sent a file with divorce papers and a file concerning our assets and children that he wanted me to sign. I wrote back and said -it is fine by me, but he should send the papers signed by him to me, now that he finally made the effort to get our divorce started.

He then sent me various mails from how much he loved me, always has and s missing me - to - how he can´t understand my deceipt of him and how dissappointed he is in me that I can´t stick to my word and promises - to- his money problems and his depression - to- how stupid he has been but there is no turning back and he has now given up and needs to move on with his life.

He wrote me that the NY trip was to talk and ask me to marry him again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I wrote him and said I was willing to talk with him calmly later. His initial reaction was no, but then later he said he was in tears, that yes, lets please talk.

So last night I went by late and we talked. He told me how sad and depressed he was. He continued to tell me that he had told OW yesterday that he needed some time alone, that she still wants the world with him, but he is confused. He tried to manipulate the situation many times and got a rise out of me, so that I got up to walk out. He told me that if I expected him to fall on his knees with a bunch of roses and say sorry I could forget about it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
It was all about his feelings, his hurt, his confusion, his depression.

It was hard to get a word in but I told him about my dissappointments. I told him how much I hated him for not being there for me and the kids the weekend after I moved out and I got seriously ill. I cried telling him that. He said he didn´t think it was that serious, that it was just a trick to control him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Then he continued to make disrespectful judgements about me, of how he saw me. Blaming me again, it was me that started it all.

I felt and feel numb. Drained. He offered for me to stay the night and I said no. I am going home. I left at 2am.

My evaluation of the situation.

He does not know what he wants and now he is turning the situation around that I am the bad guy because I have a friend. Its like he is using a bait to say - I miss you, want you, but I can´t give up OW without knowing if you are there for me or not. My standpoint is that if he really misses me and loves me he will finish it for himself. Its not just a gift for me.

I have not told him I will give up my friend either yet. Of course I will and can, (my friend also knows this and expects it to happen if my WH and I reconcile) but I feel that the right thing is to not make any moves until he makes his.

Right now, my WH is expecting me to panic and show him the way, by saying O.K I will give up my friend and give this another chance. Then he will know he has still got me and just continue what he is doing. The OW is still on the side waiting.

The only thing for me to do is just hang on and pretend I am already divorced. I´m ready to go there anyway.

-queen-

[ March 15, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

[ March 15, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]

Interesting to say the least....

Here are a few of my views and advice on what is the most effective course of action.

First of all, your WS seems to be the type of person who immediately looks for a way to DISAGREE with any of your thoughts or ideas or comments.

Here is just one example of his pattern of DISAGREEING....

You said:
Yesterday, in my opinion, was not much of a success.

his reply said:
I think yesterday was a success considering where we came from - we did manage to talk (even if upset once in a while), and we both handled (sometime with difficulties) our anger and at least came back to continue the discussion/conversation.

he later added:
Anyway the point is I think you are only wrong about one thing in your mail - that is your view of yesterday.

Here is another example of him DIASAGREEING...

you said:
Maybe we could start this dialogue by mail, so we don´t push the wrong triggers all the time.

His reply:

Maybe we can communicate via Email - but I would prefer to talk face-to-face - this creates a better connection

Have you noticed the pattern now, and can you think back through the years to see that this has been ongoing with him? I would bet that it has been a pattern you recognize if you think about it.

Now, the question is how do you get a person who always seems to take the OPPOSITE position of yours, to start taking a position that AGREES with yours?

It is a very simple answer. Learn to AGREE with his NEGATIVE views of situations, and then you will notice him suddenly changing his orignal views that you were arguing about....

Here is an example of how you accomplished that, and probably did not realize it at the time..

In the morning he sent a file with divorce papers and a file concerning our assets and children that he wanted me to sign.

Now notice how when you wrote back and AGREED with his negative view, what he did...

I wrote back and said -it is fine by me, but he should send the papers signed by him to me, now that he finally made the effort to get our divorce started.

here is where your agreement with moving toward the divorce with him, caused him to DISAGREE with that view and move back toward you.

He then sent me various mails from how much he loved me, always has and s missing me - to - how he can´t understand my deceipt of him and how dissappointed he is in me that I can´t stick to my word and promises

Notice the pattern?... So I would suggest to keep AGREEING with him that the marriage is to late too save, and you are not sure how you feel, and maybe it would be best if you each took some time apart from the other, and there is too much anger and blame going around, and yada yada yada....

My bet is that if you continue to show him that you finally see that it is over and that it just will not work, and that you have more or less given up, that he will take a postion of DISAGREEMENT on those view... GET IT?

DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR FRIEND!!! Why?.. Because it is WORKING to get him to think that he may lose you for good. So, do not give up something that is working. Others on here are going to try and talk you into giving the "friend" up. They are wrong. Please do not listen to their one sided opinions that will lead you to question yourself. Jealousy is a HUGE motivator in human nature,and that is not an opinion, but REALITY of life......

Stop acting angry about the other woman, and quit telling him how hurt you are. If you do mention these things, then put it in the PAST TENSE.(example:) "I WAS hurt over everything that has happened, but that doesn't matter anymore and I now realize there is nothing more to say or talk about." (of course he will want to DISAGREE with that comment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good luck...

Well.... that's interesting. And I'm very sorry that I didn't see your reply, Queen! I was looking for it, too.

What I see in these two letters and the things you've said about your interactions with your husband is this. I see two people (you and him) who are very upset, very sad, very angry. I see two people who still love each other and who don't know how to do it well.

I see two people who are now both in affairs.

I see a marriage that can be saved. You have an opportunity, Queen. Right here, right now. You have an opportunity to take that chance, to set aside your other man and ask your husband to set aside his other woman, and make this marriage work.

It will take a lot of work. You will have to discover that your husband does not control your happiness, and yet that he can add to it.

He will have to learn to listen and value you as much as he values himself. He will have to learn that his happiness doesn't come from other people, and yet you can add to it.

You can both learn these things. You both SHOULD learn these things. You have a chance, Queen, to save your marriage and to have a truly wonderful life with your husband.

He will have to change.

You will have to change.

That's not a bad thing. It's a wonderful thing.

And that's all I can write right now, since I've got to get in the car and drive to NYC now. Ahh, the joys of Thanksgiving Day traffic!

Oh, and I suggested that you not send the letter because it was really about your pain and blaming him for it.

I wish you would spend this Plan B time learning that other people are not necessary for you to be at peace, that the man you're sleeping with is not necessary for you, that you can be alone and not be lonely. Those things are important in all this.

Find peacefulness, Queen. That's what Plan B is for. Peace for yourself.

Nothing has happened or been said after my WH´s last e-mail.

Have a feeling that now that he feels I have a "friend", he is in a hurry to start building back the bridge to OW, because as he said, he had now organized time alone until after Xmas. He can´t handle that, so he figures that he has to do something about it.

It is not going to sway me one way or another, because if there is a way for us, the initiative has to come from him. It is he that needs to tell me what he would like for us to happen. If he doesn´t, once again - then his love for me is not real enough to want anything to change.

queen

Dear Queen.
I am new to this board and have been reading through the messages from your original post.

I have been involved in a 10 year love affair with a man I love very much. (First five years PA, past 5 years EA.) I have been married for 35 years and love my husband also!

My OM always wanted me FOR KEEPS (he wasn't married) but knew I would never leave my husband or family...He has now found someone who can share her life with him, he is happy, and our affair is OVER.

So anyway, after all the advice you have gotten here and all the advice you have given and all the hurt you felt from your WH, I am in TOTAL SHOCK that YOU are now the OW.

How could you let that happen?
Dear Queen, you know better.
Am I to understand the man you are seeing is married with a sick wife?

You need help IMMEDIATELY from your friendly advisors & friends here at the board, before this affair advances.
Very very sincerely, Sarah

Yes, if we are to look at this in MB terms I am both the WS and OW.

Unfortunately, for you and many others, I don´t quite see it that black and white, because it isn´t.

My friend is just that. A friend. Yes, you can call him an EA and a PA, because he is both. And then again not. Well friendships - no matter what kind of friends you are, are always on an emotional level. People tell their friends, things they would not tell their spouses - sometimes thats what friends are for. O.K, you don´t have SF with your friends, that is to be understood.

Well my friendship with him is based on an emotional bond and a physical bond, because we both also need the physical bond. He has no SF with his wife because she cannot physically fulfill that need. SF is one of my top needs and it has not been met for a very long time. A bit selfish - well, yes.

Again, you might think my friend is a weird man, in a weird marriage, because his wife has full acceptance to him having a physical bond with other women. The freedom she has given him, has taken pressure off decisions to be made in their marriage on unmet needs. My friend loves his wife very deeply and will never do anything to hurt her and will even protect her from their own painful decision that this is how it is.

For them to come to that conclusion has nothing to do with me. My friend lived (and is still living) with his wife during her terminal illness for two years without SF, until they came to the conclusion they came to. I am not a threat to their marriage and he is no threat to mine (well, except for my WH, that has trouble coming to terms with me having a friend like him). The situation is a bit special, I have to admit, but thats how it is.

But again, in MB terms, yes I am the OW. I am not wanting more from my friend than the friendship and support we have to offer. Our friendship is not driven by destructive factors that you see when two people are totally in love. I have told him that he has no future with me on a traditional relationship level and he has actually told me the same.

Right now we just plain care about each other and have the understanding that should either of our situations change with our spouses - we will have to say goodbye to our friendship because we have been intimate. If I do divorce my WH and want to find a new love in my life, he knows that we also need to say goodbye to the physical intimacy we have and maybe just try to preserve the freindship, if we can do that. If not - its goodbye.

We see each other quite seldomly (but often enough to maintain our friendship). We write to each other when we need to vent, or would like advice from each other.

I know, Sarah, that you saw me as the WS, like yourself, (I have been following your posts). However the reasons and underlying factors behind why I am here in the situation I am in right now are VERY different to yours.

I am letting go of my marriage. Do I have feelings for my husband. Yes. But do I want to continue with him like I have done for the past year with him continuing all the destructive, inconsistent and confusing behaviour with him running all over the place with his OW, who is now divorced from her own H because of this?

No.

I have come to terms with the fact that there may be nothing to save. Why? Because I don´t think my WH loves me enough. I have the feeling that he only loves himself. Maybe me having a friend and him "perceiving it as really losing me" might wake him up? (My friend and I have talked honestly and openly about this too, that this is kind of my WH last chance to show his true colours...)

But what if he doesn´t wake up? What if he doesn´t stop and say to me, queen - "I don´t want you to do this. Please stop this friendship, I will stop my affair and lets try to figure this out".

Well them I have my answer, do I not?

-Queen-

Dear Queen.
You are doing what people have been doing since affairs first began: Justifying it that your situation is unique.

Believe me, I know, because that is what I have done! I love this other fellow with a deep caring love so I felt if my husband never found out, this dear OM and I could share this wonderful love and friendship and no one would ever be hurt.

You see, when we are in the throes of passion, we are in a big FOG and our reasoning is not normal.

That is why I have told others here on the site (that just don't understand how this could happen to a Christian woman, kind and loving wife and mother) that IT CAN HAPPEN.

No one is immune! That is why we can NEVER SAY NEVER because you just don't know what or who may be in your future that will make you go gaa gaa and lost your lifetime of moral values over this person!

Love, Sarah....
(It still seems very WRONG for you to be having this affair with a married man and you being married yourself; but you just evidently cannot see that.) I have written before that it is like we are driven, would you agree with that?

QOBH I wholeheartedly agree with Sarie's post.

Queen here's some questions I would like for you to ponder:

Do you have undeniable proof that the OM's W truly agreed to him having sex with other women?

Do you have undeniable proof that she is terminally ill?

Unless your answer is an unequivocal and resounding yes, then I would seriously consider that you may have been lied to. If that is the case, then you may be doing the SAME thing to the OM's W that your WH's OW is doing to you, destroying a marriage.

Are you sure that he is not having sex with other women as well and thereby jeopardizing your health and life?

As with the previous questions, unless you have positive proof that he is telling you the truth you may be playing Russian roulette with your life.

Are you sure that the sex you have with your OM won't lead you to fall in love with him?

Most affairs start as innocent friendships and without sex. Sex between a man and a woman is the MOST intimate of all physical acts and it seldom is 'just physical' because it's power eventually affect the lover's emotions. Every time you have sex with this man, your emotional investment in him grows and it may one day grow to deep love. I wouldn't doubt that this is exactly what has happened but you have not yet admitted to yourself.

If you have no hope left that your WH is going to end his affair and express a willingness to rebuild the marriage, why don't YOU file for divorce once and for all?

Queenof

you have to stop all of this chaos in your life...and go back to the basics that you value and that define you...

Your actions that you own are toxic to

you
your children
your husband
the other man
his wife
your children..

what exactly do we have now..

two grown adults that are playing tit for tat and wrapping it up in emotional garbage...

that's what it is..no matter how you spin it...

go back to basics....
go back to the reality that no matter what words we speak and
no matter what emotions we have
our actions define who and what we are...

and your actions YOURS alone regardless of anyone elses are damaging...

If you value committment then act thusly
if you value truth then act thusly
if you value family then for God's sake act thusly...

your children are being sentenced to having the two grownups in their life that they need the most playing the most dangerous game of roulette with thier lives...
the childrens
and yours

when this blows up...
who will care where the children land in all of this...

in the courts it will become a battle of whose screwing who

you can not even claim anything valiant out of this relationship with the om (nor your husbands actions with the ow) when all the actions only lead to pain...and chaos and skewed values and changing the definitions of words to suit your poor choices

stop today and now...

you must look farther down the line to what you really want in this world for your children which should be a safe home environment and then each action must become one that provides it...

period... period .. period..

you are worthy of decency that you create
you are worthy of truth and honor in you life...

I will not powerstruggle with you over your twisting of the reality of the impact of YOUR actions....

on the big picture of your family...and all either of you is doing is stockpiling artillery (?SP) for the war that is coming...

surrender now....
and save your family...

I will pray for you queenof...
you are becoming more and more lost.
and the way to find yourself is to stop...

I don't give a rats behind what your husband does or not do...
I am speaking to you
of you
and your actions....

I believe in you

I believe you do know better
I believe you deserve all the light this world has to offer.

ARK

An update.

Smashed my car yesterday, with kids in it. Classic scenario. Sitting in a queue and little one starts screaming at back, I make a quick glance to check he´s o.k and bang, drive into the car in front of me. I spent 3 hours with 3 kids organizing everything. Got home shattered and finally lying in my bath and kids sleeping just broke into tears.

Received an e-mail from the owner of the house I rented, that they have to come home 15th of January, so I need to get a new place to live by 1st February <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I was so much looking forward to living here up til July to get the breather I need.

I´ve turned into a firewoman, there´s fires everywhere but I haven´t got the energy to put them out because of all the confusion.

WH.

I still don´t know. When I saw him last on Saturday when I invited him to join Xmas skating with me and the kids,(yes, broke plan B to keep xmas tradition for kids) he told me he loves and misses me so much - And that he finally needs to talk to OW and tell her its over with him and her. When I smashed the car yesterday and tried to call to see if he could help by picking the kids up, his voice mail went over to the swedish answering service (OW home country). He text messaged me and told me he was talking to "you know whom"...whereas I sent him a message to say what happened and I was a bit in shock. 24 hours later and he still has not replied or called to show his concern.

So, his words are still that - words.

Unfortunately have not had the energy in the midst of all of this (plus more) to break contact with "friend" - timing is also wrong to do it. Out of everyone I know he is the only one that has showed concern and worry for me, and I really really need it. I spend so much time worrying about the kids, economy, work, all the practical stuff AND emotional things going on with the rest of my immediate family - sometimes I just need a break. He gives it to me, though in very small dosises, but just a small dosis is enough.

I would have so much more to tell, but wouldn´t know where to start and where to finish. it will have to be another day becauce I have been feeling very de-energized and down the past two weeks. Bit of a sorry update, I know. But theres nothing wonderful to tell.

Queen

[ December 09, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

Queen,

I'm so sorry to hear about your car! Was anyone hurt? It sounds like not, since everyone was home asleep afterwards, but what a shocking, scary experience! Please take care of yourself and your family. Do you have any family who could come and give you support during the holidays? You know, parents, siblings, cousins, whatever? I feel as though you need someone like that now. Even a friend who would come and stay at your place. (And no, NOT your married friend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

I'm also very sad that your WH couldn't give you support during this difficult time. I know that must hurt you. Take care of yourself, please. Take good care of yourself. I don't want you to be hurt any more than you have.

I am working on a long update of what has happened since before Xmas until now. I will get back with it asap, so others can see what happened. Maybe it can help others.

This is for real. It really is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We started therapy two weeks ago. We have had backslides even since then, mainly from my behalf, because I wanted to just throw in the towel and give up.

But today is the day where recovery begins and today is the day, where our therapist told me when I went to see her alone - > Next time Queen, we are setting up the rules, and both you and your husband are going to stick to them and be accountable for them. She IS the right therapist for us and we both feel she is.

I want to share the last e-mail I received from my WH.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It was maybe silly to ask you those questions - when all I need is you! So here are my answers to my own questions:

1) I want you in my life in all aspects

2) I want us to stop having other relationsships

3) I want to continue therapy - both alone and together

4) I would prefer you are not seeing any other male friends - at least not unless we at one point agree to that

5) I want to be married to you for the rest of my life - and to grow a better understanding between us.

Kisses your man
<hr /></blockquote>After this mail to me, he wrote a ten page letter to our therapist and cried for help, because he was so afraid of losing me. He wrote to her how much he loved me and that he doesn´t want anyone else but ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My husband would NEVER write a ten page letter to anyone, and he would NEVER cry for help!!!!!

My husband stopped his affair just after Xmas. He has no contact with his Swedish affair whatsoever.

After Xmas, my husband and I had an open agreement that we were allowed to see/date others whilst working on our marriage. BIG MISTAKE! With all the past hurt and the weakness of our relationship and marriage, it went all wrong. The hurt still continued. He dated other women, whilst I continued seeing my lover. We triggered each others hurt, and mistrust.

Him continuing the "dating" scene, convinced me he didn´t want me and he would always be unfaithful and I would never be number 1 for him like always and me continuing seeing my lover convinced him that I didn´t believe in our relationship and did not love my husband anymore. I admit it. I didn´t believe in our marriage anymore. I was on the path of divorce and I didn´t care how we got there - even if was self destructive.

But today my therapist asked me the vital question. She said Queen, if your husband got himself a new girlfriend would you be happy for him? Could you be friends with him? Could you still agree on how to raise your kids together?

I said no. I would not want to be his friend. I would not want to be any part of his life, because seeing him move on with someone else would just be too painful. I would only have the most necessary communication with him concerning the kids. Nothing more.

She said, Queen, then stop doubting your love. Doubt leads to suffering and you are just suffering. Remove the doubt and begin to believe and trust that these immense feelings are there because you are still bound to your husband. Your suffering will end when you can see that the only goal is the goal of finding your mutual love again. Queen, you cannot be friends with your husband, because you still love him deeply. But its the hurt and the suffering that is drowning your love and you think that by divorcing him the pain will go away. It won´t. It will take you four to five years to get over your husband if you divorce him, and until then you will not be able to give yourself to another person, you will have a long hard road trying to heal yourself.

I believed her. For the first time in a very long time, I believed that it was true. I still loved my husband and I would have to do what it takes to get back on track.

Our therapist outlined the new rules that start from today being;

1) All communication with opposite sex, besides agreed persons; family, friends...STOPS

2) No more text messaging or mails if there are any feelings involved

3) Start cleaning up whatever "messes" we have left behind us to start our lives seperately and together afresh. For eg. when I was 16 I broke up with a girlfriend and never told her why. So I have to send a card to her and say I´m sorry I never meant to but it is still bugging me.

So thats just the start, and the rules we are going to make together with our therapist on Wednesday next week!

This has been my worst nightmare and it really scares me to go down the road of recovery because I have been lurking those that are already on it. It sure looks like a lot of bumps and unpredictable swings. Really really scary, but I hope we can reach our goal.

I´m Glad to be Back with these good news and I would like to hear what you would like best, Still here making it, Just Learning, Just J, Ark, Mortarman, Dazed blond, Shugah, and gosh, so many many more...

I want to give a special thanks to Keep moving 4ward because his advice and knowledge has proved to be VERY VERY true. Its harsh to accept and acknowledge to be true, because it goes against alot ot the MB principles and values, also ones own - but he was very right, JEALOUSY is the factor that has brought us to where we are now - it rocked my WH hard, and it has rocked him out of his withdrawal to the OW too.

So what do you think guys? Should I start a new thread on Recovery or start a new thread here. I would like to be where my "friends" are....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ February 19, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]

OH Queen!
It is so good to hear from you!
I am so happy for you and your H!
It didn't seem possible way back when, did it?

And now look! Yes, you have a lot of work ahead of you, and some of it will be difficult, but it will be oh so worth it!

I have always said that I would rather put the hard work into recovering my marriage, than the hard work to make a divorce work!

Sounds like you have a good professional to work with...

My WH is very close to coming home, I can feel it...I just hope he can do what it takes to make it work!
I'm not posting here as much...but I lurk alot.
My vote would be to Stick around General Questions II, for the most part anyways...there seems to be a lot of activity here...and stories of recovery are so helpful to others.

Keep us posted...and keep up the good work!

Oh Queen!!! It's so good to "hear" from you!!

This is good news.

Yes, recovery is bumpy, but it's the jealousy (as you said), the doubt, the hurt, the unfinished business, our own sludge that gets in the way. M can be so joyful!!! I just don't write about the happy times, only the frustrating ones.

Looking forward to "hearing" from you. Yes, post on recovery or here, wherever you feel comfortable. You know your own situation better.

Sometimes lurking and posting gets me a little down because it reminds me of what I left, and how close to the brink my M is (isn't nearly every M just a phone call or car accident away from disaster?). I just have to trust and love, and enjoy the ride...

Good to hear the news!!!!! Sounds like you have a peach of a MC. Keep posting, others can learn from you too!!

Queeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yay, I'm so VERY VERY glad for you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You sound as though you have a wonderful therapist who's got just the right "tough love" approach. I've wondered how you were doing over the last several weeks, and I'm so glad to know that you're doing better!

Please do keep updating us here -- I'm never going to find you over in Recovery; I never go there and things are so busy with me that I barely manage to read here a lot of the time.

Yayayayayayayayayay!