Wow, very interesting night. Now WH and OW will think twice about going out in public again. You have effectively shown themthe s=consequences of their actions and they will have to hide under rocks for awhile...keep going out...make them run and hide when you walk in...

Although it wasn't the best way to handle the situation...WELL DONE!!! You lived out my fantasy!

But this is interesting, I get the feeling you are slightly passive in your R with WH, and now he got a chance to see the strong side of you. Wheels are turning!

Stay strong...you have a right to go out.
Be confident...the troubles WH has with you are mostly in his head.
Be calm...you are better than all this.

Everyone -

I really worry when we talk about a night that included a near-brawl in a bar as "making our days." Is that really godly behavior? I mean, well, Jesus and Buddha never got into brawls, though Mohammed was a general before he was a prophet. Still, uhhh, I really worry that cheering on a major LB-fest isn't a good idea.

Sure, I understand (completely!!!!!) Queen's loss of control. I snapped like that one night, the day WP told me she wanted to leave and take the baby with her.

And even though, looking back on it, I do not know how I could have changed that reaction one iota, it still frightened and hurt my WP, someone I loved then and still love now. (Though I wish I didn't.)

So.... well, I just am not sure that it's something that's good to condone, you know?

And Queen, this is not meant as a slam on you in the slightest. You were provoked beyond the point where you could control your emotions. Everyone here, I suspect, has been in that place and knows how incredibly awful and draining and hard and all that it can be. And you have my support! Completely! I just think that we're all here to grow and learn about ourselves; we can't change our partners, after all. And so for everyone who's taking any pleasure in such a heartwrenching scene, well, I just don't think that's a good idea.

(Now I'll go put my flame-resistant coat on...)

Just J,

Actually, I can think of a time Jesus wielded a bullwhip pretty well, knocked over some tables and threw some people out of the temple.

Sometimes it takes a "Come to Jesus" confrontation of a different sort to bring a wayward spouse around.

Well, J, I tend to go with you for practical reasons. (I suspect the folks you mentioned also held their policies for practical reasons.) When we behave like that, if gives WS and OP something to talk about. If the idea of Plan B is to let WS and OP try to get their needs solved by each other, any distracting show I offer simply feeds the A and makes it more real and important.

My H kept thinking I was the crazy one -- no matter how calmly I reacted to his weirdness, no matter how bizarre OW was. I expect he's revising his notions somewhat, but it's because I withdrew from the picture almost totally. No scenes, no tears, no arguments...nuthin.

Hi all,

And thank you for your wonderful input. Its true that I am not proud of myself in the way I handled the situation, but I still feel good about the fact that I did it. I will never apologize for my feelings in that situation, because I was hurt in a way, that was mean and disrespectful. It was not a chosen situation for anyone of us, but it did bring reality to the whole sordid affair. The reality of how ugly and hurtful it really is.

Maybe I still love my Wh, I really don´t know, right now it feels like I never want to have anything to do with him, besides handling our kids. Staying in the dark is so simple, I don´t miss him. I just want to get a move on with my life. Maybe Saturday closed the door I had open for him. I say maybe, because I am still so hurt and tired of it all, that I don´t know.

I have received so many gifts through this process, and I intend to use them in my future. As a person I have grown and made a gigantic leap in my development. I have never felt more whole and more aware of my weaknesses and my strengths.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

Good choice not to reply. But do you see the humor and fog talk in his message??

The ways WE have hurt each other?????
How stupid WE have been?????

The fog is a terrible place to be. Don't let him drag you down into it again with him.

IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.

You are strong.
DB

You are right, but there are also more choices in his mail...

"this ending is not what I ever thought or hoped for"

-he acknowledges this is the end

"To let you go now seems hard and maybe even a mistake"

-he acknowledges that he is letting go

"that you wont stand in the way for me and the kids!"

-he acknowledges we will not be having the kids together anymore

Guys - He maybe is in the fog and he has not got the balls to make a choice, but he is doing it. He made the choice on Saturday. He is making the choice now too.

And all this, "talk with you about MY feelings, MY situation, MY doubts etc. while you needed distance to me... And at the moment being alone without sharing MY hurt is very difficult!",just proves that this man is nowhere near having empathy or understanding for anyone else but himself.

I´ve had it. I don´t think I can do it anymore. He has made his choice.

-queen-

Interesting, I was alarmed to read in his letter about the "ending", but I wonder if he is jsut saying that to get you to answer him...

He may start really pushing your buttons to get you to answer him...

Remember, he wants you BOTH!!

But mostly you can just ignore this letter and his talk as one who is blathering some other language...

SHMI:

I am not alarmed that he is talking about the ending, because I think i said to him on Saturday when he walked up to the dance floor to say sorry - "get lost, go back to your affair because it is over".

And I know what you fellow MB´s have to say to me, if I am in Plan B, then I have to send a short Plan B letter - love you, want to stay married to you, nc etc...

But I don´t know whether I still love him, whether I want to stay married to him and whether I care anymore what he does. So right now, i cannot do anything, I need to feel what it is I am feeling and whether there is any hope left. Like I said, staying dark is so easy, because maybe, just maybe, there is nothing to be saved anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-queen-

Actually, Queenie, I feel the same way. That's why I never sent PBL, either. Just piping in my support and understanding.

queen of

these words are no different than any other words from him..they carry no more or no less weight than anything else he has said..

D0 not read all this extra meaning in to these words...

do not send another plan B letter...

just keep on doing what you are doing...

It is his actions that will define him..AND even if he does make moves to legally pursue this...which I am willing to bet isn't going to happen...
there is nothing that can't be stopped, reversed, or re-done...

He hasn't fully processed his responsibility in any of this...he is still way to much in to blaming you...note how he manages to continue that theme in every correspondance...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You have been hurt bad...take some time to heal and lick your own wounds...let him spin and babble on...
blah blah blah blah...
I'm suprised this man is able to pick his own socks out alone...let alone choose major life decisions right now...

remove the weights you are placeing on his words...lighten the load for yourself..

blessings to you ARK

I am rapidly moving towards Plan D. I don´t know guys but I feel like I have not got a shred of hope left. I am searching for a place to live and its tough finding something in the line of rent I am willing to pay.

On Tuesday I am going to look at a house where the family is living in Singapore. They want double the rent of what I can afford, but I wrote to them my situation and they said that if they felt I was the right person, that they would consider my offer. I could live there until next summer and that would give me time to get the rest of my life in order.

Please pray for me and my children that this family believe I am the right person and could move into this home 1st of October.

My finances are running really low and since Saturday I have not had any contact with my WH. My old au-pair has been visiting this week and she has been an intermediary between my WH and I. This morning I asked her if she could tell my WH that I needed some money for food and gasoline. She gave him the message and my WH said that if I need something that I have to ask him directly.

I don´t know what to do. I don´t want to ask him for anything directly, I just want this over and done with. How much more do I need to be humiliated?

My 10yr old son said, mummy I have got money on my account, we can manage on that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My WH will do anything to manipulate the situation, so again he saw a way.

Yesterday night I got this message from him;

It is better to light a tiny candle - instead of cursing the darkness


I was about to send the following message back,

A candle is lit, just in another room

but didn´t.

I´m just going to try to figure this all out by myself and not count or ask for his help. I can´t have contact with him. I just can´t. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-queen-

Dear Queen,

My heart goes out to you, and I will pray for you.

But I also think you need to seek legal advice, like, yesterday.

There is absolutely no reason why you should be in this financial situation. You have children and your husband has a legal responsibility to support them, which he is not living up to.

It was the hardest thing I did, finding myself in a solicitor's office, but I did it, and it helped give me strength when I later asked him to leave. I knew the facts, and him knowing that I knew the facts let him know that he couldn't push me around, and his situation was a lot more serious than he realized.

Your H is emotionally manipulative, by denying you money for food unless you come to him and ask for it. He SHOULD be offering this to you of his own free will, even if you haven't asked for it, and even if he is angry with you - even if he is the one who didn't want to speak to you, in other words, he should be providing financial support.

He is entirely in the wrong - he is having an affair, he left the family home, he is not providing financial support - you need, at this point, to bring heavier pressure to bear on him - it might just wake him up to the fact that this is not a game.

Also, the fact that you "laid hands on her" in a public place - you really ought to seek legal advice on this count alone. In my case, my solicitor told me that our fracas in the kitchen would not be seen by a judge as my fault, even though I was the one who hit him - it was an unfortunate incident in a highly-charged emotional interaction which was entirely out of character for me.

Please protect yourself here. I don't think doing this for yourself would harm the situation any more.

Also, I don't know how it is done in Denmark, but here in England, I found a solicitor who specialized in family law, and the first consultation was free. She was able to offer me legal advice through LegalAid, because my own income from part-time work was low. Don't let the thought of legal fees put you off to begin with. Find out the facts first - you could easily qualify for legal help.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

You were in Plan A for a LONG time. You are feeling drained and DOUBLY betrayed. If you move to D now without doing your best Plan B at the end you will always wonder if you did enough.

I agree, get the financials in writing. Get the visitation in writing too. Without his input, you'll just have to guess at what he wants...don't necessarily give him what he wants but set this up so it is the best for the FAMILY. Ask the kids how often they want to see Dad and then weigh this against how disruptive it would be to theirs and your lives.

In the States a separation agreement paves the way for a D. A separation agreement will often be used to write the D decree. That may or may not be the case there.

How are you doing for support? Do you have family you could live with for awhile? DO you have friends you're talking with? Have you exposed the A to his family yet (have they heard your side of the tale?)

Queen
I have written this before. About a friend who in most respects was a great guy, but had a few affairs. The last was his undoing.

Some people are so focused and so single minded toward achieving a goal that they disregard any of the resulting consequenses. He after repeated half hearted attempts at counseling and reconciliation, he told his BS that "All my troubles will be over when we divorce." He told this to many of his friends. As it turns out, it was only the beginning of his troubles.

Your H may find that: "Sometimes having is not so good as wanting"

To me, it seems like he feels like it is time to do "something". I don't think he really knows himself if it's right. I don't know who's forcing this, but he is doing "something" hoping for a good outcome. I don't believe he is confident as he is trying to appear. Just my 2 cents.

Well, just before I was about to consider calling my lawyer on what to do, my WH sends a message saying, "what is your account no?". Of course I sent it. Just hope the transfer makes tomorrow, so we can get through the weekend. Else my best friend is staying for a few days and I can loan some money from her til Monday.

I hope that he came to this conclusion himself that his wife and children need food and not that somebody needed to spell it out for him.

I know this sounds pretty unbelievable since I am saying I basically do not have money for food, but our standard of living is higher than the average danes. We have not been needy of anything, but it is my WH that has had 100% control of our money.We do not have a joint account, I just have asked for money when I need it. I don´t own any credit cards or cash cards, because I like to pay everything in cash as I like to feel in control over my spending (else I would spend too much).

Anyway I´m glad he pulled through and has made a transaction.

ARK:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> these words are no different than any other words from him..they carry no more or no less weight than anything else he has said.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, nothing has changed for him, besides the fact that he has maybe pushed me further down the road of actually giving up on this marriage. Something has changed for me. I just don´t know what it is. The pain I am feeling right now is different to the pain I have been feeling before. Like I am truly grieving for a death. My pain before was easier to bear, the betrayal, the lies - this pain goes deeper, right to the core of me...I don´t even think about writing to him anymore, wanting to tell my feelings, share my worries, joys. Once in a while I try...just for myself. I start out dear WH, I write half a sentence and then I can already feel that I have nothing more to say. Am I already at the place where there is no return?

Lady in Red:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H is emotionally manipulative, by denying you money for food unless you come to him and ask for it. He SHOULD be offering this to you of his own free will, even if you haven't asked for it, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right, thankfully he (or someone else) pushed him to his senses. I don´t think he understands the seriousness of the situation anymore. Its like its a game. But my life and our childrens lives are not a game. We are living, breathing humans.

Still here making it:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You were in Plan A for a LONG time. You are feeling drained and DOUBLY betrayed. If you move to D now without doing your best Plan B at the end you will always wonder if you did enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the best Plan B at this point? Am I not doing that? O.K I have started the seperation, and looking for a place to live and will get the financials in place asap. I am also throwing my WH in the OW arms. The only thing I am not doing is confirming my WH that I still love him and want to stay married to him. But I can´t say that if I truly do not know anymore, can I? So isn´t this the best I can do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How are you doing for support? Do you have family you could live with for awhile? DO you have friends you're talking with? Have you exposed the A to his family yet </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I´m not doing too good with support. My family lives in Finland and England, so I don´t get to see them so often. Even my best friends live abroad. But I am finding ways of building myself a new network. I have exposed the A to his family and our mutual friends. His mother and father have said they will support me with helping with the kids once in a while. They are quite devastated of the whole thing, and blame themselves for "spoiling" him...

Monty:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Sometimes having is not so good as wanting" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this quote hits the root of my WH behaviour for always. He is always wanting more, enjoying what he has got is just not enough. Actually,he had the children in our home not so many nights ago, and before he left,he left a newspaper article (obviously for me to read) about men being Don Juans - having the desire to conquer the next woman, and once conquered the next again...So somehow he can even see it himself, but how am I supposed to use info like that if I need a marriage based on me being no.1?


-queen-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is the best Plan B at this point? Am I not doing that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, most certainly YES!!

What I meant to say, is give the Plan some time. If you went straight to Plan D right now you'd always wonder if you gave Plan B enough time.

This is time for you. Time for you to get on your own feet. Time for you to get used to being alone...or to decide what kind of M you want, either with this man or with another.

Interesting that he left the article...it was something that interested him. Is he looking to rationalize his behavior so he won't feel so bad. As if to say, "See, other guys do this, it must not be SO bad." Oh well, just because we have the capability to behave a certain way doesn't give us the acceptance to do it (killing, stealing, lying, cheating). I think he's looking for rationalization.

You seem like you are doing an EXCELLENT Plan B. Keep it up. You can keep going like this for awhile. You'll either live without him in Plan B or live without him in Plan D.

I know this sounds pretty unbelievable since I am saying I basically do not have money for food, but our standard of living is higher than the average danes. We have not been needy of anything, but it is my WH that has had 100% control of our money.
Are you doing anything so you do not need to rely 100% on him for money?

Chris;

Yes, I have taken steps to take control of my life again economically, but it is going slowly. I guess it will be hard to put into full effect until the legal seperation is final, so I know what my WH has to pay in terms of child support etc...

SHMI:

Thanks for replying, I was really in doubt there whether you thought I was missing something. Sometimes its good to spell ones doubts out just to avoid misunderstandings. Communication can be a difficult thing.

-queen-

I guess it will be hard to put into full effect until the legal seperation is final, so I know what my WH has to pay in terms of child support etc...
You should plan as if he will pay zero. Even if the courts order him to pay, what if he doesn't? You need to look at what you need to do to make it without any financial support from him.
This is not to say you will HAVE to do it, but you should look at it as a possibility.

Yes, it stinks and it's not fair but what are you gonna do?