<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

Queen

Thanks for the faith in me...I dont know if I am the expert...but I do love Plan B! That being said, I am sure others will step in to help also.

From what you have written here, you seem to be turning the corner. You are in Plan B, after doing a great plan A. Of course, finding out about your WH's repeated affairs was a huge blow, and catipulted you into Plan B. Did your LBs during this time hurt things? Well, LBs do always hurt. But in this case, I am not sure that they did a lot of damage. I think he knows that you "losing it" was an appropriate reaction to finding out just how deeply you have been betrayed.

Your WH's actions are typical. Go to my thread that I had during the end of Plan B Mortarman's Plan B . Also look at Mimi's website, as well as Now What's. All of these show WSs in the death throes of their relationships with the OP. Your WWH is following the script.

Now, to the question at hand. First off, you sent a PBL. Good. That tells him that you still want this marriage, but no longer on his terms. From now on, it will be on yours. And if you wrote it close to what is recommended by MB, then it was done in a loving way. So, he knows the way out of his "hell."

Now he wants to talk. My wife also tried to talk to me. On that thread I listed above, I go into how she just showed up one night and wanted to talk. She wanted to find out things, to tell me that she was beginning to see things clearly. Was she ready to come home then? Not quite. But she was in what I call the transition period...between Plan B and recovery.

I call this the transition period because the WS is still in the affair. But now they are seeing things clearly. They see the Op for who they are. They see their spouse again in a positive light. They KNOW now that they have to make some very tough decisions. It is now, typically, that I have found that WSs get into counseling with earnest. While in the A, they believed they had done nothing wrong. Now they know they have. You see, now they can see all the questions, and most of the answers. The problem now is actions.

So, did I allow my wife to talk? Sure. We sat and talked for 4 hours. Did I participate? Well, not like you might think. I let her talk. I let her tell her story. I let her explain why she was there. I let her ask questions (which I gave very concise answers to).

I liken it to surrender negotiations. The "enemy" is now feeling out you to see if that PBL is stil good. To see if they will be harmed once they surrender. Many times they try to negotiate their way back. But if you are doign a good Plan B, then the negotiations are not going to happen. The PBl spells this out. So, while I was in the conversation with my wife, I would continue to push her back to the PBL, all the while, answering her questions.

Want an example? Okay. At one point, she was asking me questions about my life and what I had been upto (during the previous 6 weeks of Plan B). I told her that wasnt the issue, and that I wasnt going to discuss my personal life with her until she had committed to the terms outlined in the PBL.

At the end of our conversation, she asked me if I could just be her friend while she went through this and ended things. My answer? "I am your friend, and your husband. I will be there for you, once you have no more contact with the OM and have started counseling." You see, she was trying to negotiate, to cake eat...so she could slowly get out of her A. I stuck to my guns, gave her the answer...and then she walked out the door.

Know what happened? The next week, she was calling my house 3-4 times a day, wanting to tell me about a sunrise she just saw, or crying and saying she needed to talk....and more. I had been tough on her. I had shown her that while I allowed her to have that 4 hour conversation, I never got off message or gave in one little bit. And she RESPECTED me for that.

Now some on here will say that Plan B is no contact, and I agree. But I also know that there comes that time where the WS needs to ask, needs to hear, what exactly they need to do. They need to know that you will be there when they make this move. It is a very scary thing. They know they have hurt you badly, and they wonder whether or not there will be retribution. They know they will miss the OP. A lot of pain ahead, and they want some kind of "guarantees" that their efforts thru the pain will be for something.

So, my call on this is to let him talk. View yourself as a general, and the enemy wants to talk surrender terms. So, you sit across the table, and you listen. When they are done talking, you push the PBL back across the table and tell them that there is only one way to surrender here. And if he isnt ready to do so, then show him the door. Dont be mean, spiteful, cuss...just stern.

And then wait. In my wife's case, that was all it took to reassure her that her husband was still there...that she could do this.

You have done well under difficult circumstances. If you feel that you cannot remain aloof, that you cannot keep from LBing, then dont allow him to talk to you. But, if you can keep that seperation, then let him talk and ask questions.

Then come back on here, and let's evaluate what he is doing.

In His arms.

Oh thank you Mortarman so much for your fast reply.

I will now wait for my WH to follow up on his need to have that "honest talk" with me and prepare myself to be - calm, gracious, kind, but at the same time sticking to my boundaries with firmness. It is not certain that he will follow up on it though.

I will read the posts you have quoted and come back here as soon as there is some development, either negative or positive.

a big cyberhug for your help(((((:-)))))

-queen-

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

I think I am panicking a bit in my Plan B. I sent a message to my WH this morning to hear if he wanted to have dinner tonight to spend time with the kids.

My stomach is really aching and this morning I was at the toilet trying to vomit.

Is this normal? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am afraid that by being distant and withdrawn to him will make him back out. I mean the problem with our marriage was that I have always been emotionally and physically distant towards him because of childhood issues. Doing the same thing is just lovebusting don´t you think?

Would appreciate some wise words here...

queen

Okay Queen,

I am going to use a padded 2x4 on you here.

Right now, you are NOT in Plan B. Your counselor said that you need to limit the time on Plan B...the problem is that you have not even started it. He came over and you sepnt time with him. You saw him in the cafe and went to talk to him. You now have asked him over for dinner or out to dinner.

Queen...that is Plan A, not Plan B. Plan B is NO CONTACT with your husband. None, zip, zilch! After reading your situation, I believe that you need to be in Plan B. The problem is, you haven't done it yet. If you dont want to go to Plan B, then dont. But, your WH shows every indication that he needs Plan B.

Is it scary? Sure. Could it jsut push him away? Yeah, that could happen. but guess what? If Plan B pushes him away for good, he probably was never coming back anyway.

Plan B has a very limited time of opportunity. If you back off of it too many times, if when you back off you LB...he will not respect you nor believe you.

So, the question here is...are you going to go to Plan B? You talk about being upset and vomiting. This is EXACTLY the reason why you should be in a REAL Plan B. Then the rollercoaster will not have you on it, making your stomach upset.

So, the question still remains...when are you going to go to Plan B?

In His arms.

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

So sad.

Some people are by choice monogamous, but slip up and find themselves involved in an affair. Once caught, they work their tush off to never have another A ever, ever again. This falls into the "BIG mistake" category of affairs .... in my opinion.

Then there are others, who have made a "life style" choice. Their commitment is to not getting caught ever again. When caught, they will do and say whatever it takes to win back their spouse, because they really DO love their spouse. Once their spouse is back in their pocket .... they may, once again, make their choice to continue to have affairs .... because it is their chosen life style.

If you are married to a person who choses that life style, you may never have the marriage you want, but you might be "happy" anyway.

I am NOT talking about sex addiction ... but rather a life style choice made from a philosophical point of view that may be different from yours and mine.

This is NOT to say that you shouldn't try and repair your M if that is your desire ... but I do think this is a known risk you should be aware of.

You can accept the risk or not. But, this is a high risk situation for possible future affairs.

Pep <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

A good solid Plan B is very difficult at first. It is as though we are addicted to the S and can't be without them. It's a paradox our stressed minds can't comprehend that by letting go is the best way of a return to our M.
THe first week of Plan B is the hardest...to stay out of contact. Make him miss the kisses and conversations. He is testing you to see if he can still coax you into conversation when HE wants it.

I forgot, have you sent a firm Plan B letter? Do you have firm guidelines about when you'll talk with him (about children or after N/C has been established and proven)?

I know this is tough. I backpedaled the first few days (week?) but after I got down to it and tough and kept communication to a bare minimum, then my FWH got serious.

As far as a serial cheater, my H had on-line A's and had been asking women out all the years of our M. THis was the first time one said yes. We both know this is a possibility in the future, but this is part of recovery, we're dealing with it, and he is more open about his "opportunities".

I´m such a failure at plan B.

I have tripped and fallen so many times. The panic, the loneliness, the feeling of no hope, despair, anxiety, frustration of Plan B (when you STILL love your WS) makes it so easy to fail.

Weekends are the worst. My WH has been sad, in pain, looking like hell and I feel love and sympathy towards him. So what did I do? I invited him home to brunch Sunday morning. We then went with the whole family to see Disneys movie Sinbad. Had a great PLAN A family day. Everyone was smiles, laughs and cuddles. He hugged me, kissed me, told me how much he missed me.

I was sold. And then the BIG moment of strength was put at test. We tucked the children in bed and I went to get myself ready to sleep. He sat on our bed and said, I don´t know what to do, I don´t want to step on your toes, I would love to stay, but if you ask me to leave I will.

And the mighty queen, me, shrivelled to a weakling and said "I would love you to stay but lets just sleep in each others arms..." and the kissing then led to lovemaking and I was about the happiest person on this planet when I woke up, though I know that NOTHING has changed.

O.K let me have it. I deserve it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

-queen-

ONe of the KEY ingredients of Marriage Builders is honesty & truth.

Doing whay you say & saying what you do.

You wrote a Plan B letter and said you want no contact. The you turn around and, "invited him home to brunch Sunday morning. We then went with the whole family to see Disneys movie Sinbad. Had a great PLAN A family day. Everyone was smiles, laughs and cuddles. He hugged me, kissed me, told me how much he missed me."

In his mind you don't really mean "no contact" because you said it and then you don't live up to it.

Why should/could he believe you when you say you want to reconcile and you will work on having a better/more meaningful relationship?

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

You can do it...

I would think that every form of contact or every moment I talked with him was prolonging the time he stayed in the fog, was keeping him from waking up.

He will not pop out of fantasy until he feels he has lost you. It didn't seem real to my H until the time I told him I had enough, that I had worked too hard and I had given up. Then he was scared...

You see they think they can always come home. If you have another opportunity to email or talk with him you may want to mention you are getting used to living without him...so you'll be ready for whatever happens.

Beginning of Plan B day 2.

Stomach in a knot. If I could vomit I would. Normal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Very normal, grieving the old M. It wasn't a good M but what you're used to.

Now what? That's the fear...the what ifs may get you...

What if he doesn't come back?
What if he comes back but does this all over again?
What if this gets ugly?

And the answer to all this is...you'll deal with it as it comes...right now, take a break. Let this time be one where you relax. The ball is in his court. There is not much to do (just inaction, which seems even harder).

You can do this...you are doing it out of love...love for him, but most especially, love for you...and respect for the kind of M that doesn' allow infidelity.

Breathe deep and take it one day, one hour, one minute at a time if you have to!
I've been in and out of Plan B, it's not easy!
But I know it's the only way to spare myself more pain. It also helps me to keep my own anger in check! His anger only feeds mine.
So, hang in there!

Queen:
You have helped me so much by reminding me about getting back into Plan B after my WW surgery. I almost got sucked into chasing her again.

I have been in Plan B since the end of July. At first it was very hard. I kept second guessing myself if it was really the best thing to do. Letting go was terrifying, because I knew WW and OM would have unlimited access to each other. BUT I started to feel really strong after about a month and began to sleep well and focus on some things that I wanted to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The breaking of Plan B from my WW surgery, as you know brought back the same old pain and worry about OM winning and the hurt. But I briefly got to see the effects on WW. I could never be around her and not feel hurt, rejection and see that she was upset to have me around.

Last night at the hospital, I felt love for her and no pain. She was kind to me for the first time in over a year and seemed to enjoy my being there considering the circumstances. PLAN B WORKS! Maybe not at the same speed or the same way for everyone, but it does help you piece youself together into a stronger, more lovable person.

I wouldn't have believed that a month and half ago. I'm sorry I didn't listen to RH, TMCM, Star*fish and others about starting "B" sooner. It would have been better if I had.

A MONSTER hug for encouragment and stength to you and a prayer as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

DAy 4 starting...not much better with the knot in stomach.

Yesterday I was so angry at my WH. He is not just mistreating me but he is mistreating our kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . The five year old is beginning to react very strongly to all of this as she misses her daddy. HE doesn´t call, tell them when he will visit. Nothing. Nada. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She wanted to call WH this morning to hear if he would pick her up from school. I dialled his no for her so she called and asked him and he thankfully said yes. I messaged him then that if he wanted he could have access to the house and kids the rest of the day and I would come home tonight when the kids were asleep and just when he had left. He hasn´t answered that yet.

I wish that Harley could give more concrete advice on how to handle PLAN B when you have children. I mean I am in Plan B, have filed for seperation. WH is living in a one room B&B place. And the kids still need their mom and dad. How is it done, without rocking their security. I don´t want my kids to have to suffer any more of the situation than they have to. And they are suffering right now, no doubt about it. No matter what their has to be contact with the WS about the kids. If a Plan B is to take for eg. 2 years, it is simply not viable that the two people that care and love for the kids most of all in this world, can´t have contact about their well being.And should they have contact it is through a 3rd person??? This confuses me. I understand the effect of NC between just us spouses COMPLETELY, but I don´t understand it when one has children that have to be discussed. It goes against my understanding? Maybe someone could explain this to me?

I found a new apartment yesterday, but there is 20 people waiting to see it and its a bit small for our needs, but I don´t care, we could manage. I will meet on Tuesday with the owner and I PRAY PRAY PRAY, she will pick me and my children. I need to get out of this home and start building m own life whilst in Plan B. I´m also beginning to look for a new job. There is a position open in Tivoli (a fairground) as an event coordinator and I will spend this weekend writing an application.

I would LOVE to have that job. More prayers.

I´m beginnig to think in terms of MY future, standing on MY two feet. IF there is the slightest chance we ever get back together again I deny to go back to the marriage we had, where everything rotated around my WH. I want to be an equal in the sense that I can fulfil my dreams too. If we never get back again, then at least I have started to fulfill some of those dreams and maybe the strength I find in myself will make living without him easier. I don´t know, but I am throwing all my energy in changing my life to one I am proud to live, with or without my WH!

I hope I can hang on to these thoughts and by hanging on to them and taking actions for me, make Plan B more bearable.

Have a nice day everyone!

-queen-

<small>[ September 12, 2003, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: A heart mending ]</small>

I would simply send the Plan B letter again, no changes, just highlight the part where "contact while still with OW = loss of love" and let those words speak for themselves.

It looks like you did a great Plan A!

Oh queenof..

please step back and look at that letter as a load of crappola....

Good God it is literally enough to make me cry..so you should go ahead and cry...then get on with Plan B...

self wallowing sanctimonious bs...

OK let it go ARK...

I'm with Kayla...I wouldn't even send the whole plan b letter..

I would send
contact while still with OW = loss of love.

period.

need to decrease right now your interactions.
even though it is difficult...on you and the children...
you can not go back to having such a disrecpectful person in your world right now...

he is an manipulator attemptor extriodaniarre...
but the key to this is that no body can be manipulated without first giving consent...
but he is good at trying to suck you in....

Can I forgive you for being as you have?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry you he sent this...but just chalk it up to foggy mumbo jumbo...because it really is..it is full of it...

peace queen of...
ARK