Hi, I'm new to the forums and I've got a question for y'all.

My husband (or whatever he is) and I have been separated since the end of May.
He is 37, I'm 32, and we have 4 children, have been married for almost 14 years.

Prior to our separation he became emotionally involved with a girl he met. She's 20 (yes 20...8 1/2 years older than my oldest child)
After we separated, their relationship progressed, of course, and wonder of wonders, she's pregnant. (I'm not convinced, though)

Here's the question...

I don't like the girl, and it has nothing to do with the current situation. (although it doesn't help matters) I never have liked the girl, and I don't anticipate ever liking her.
My husband is trying to "integrate the families".
He expects me to have a grand time while we ALL go to the movies together. While we go bowling together. (My kids won't go if I don't go, and I want them to see their father.)
Yesterday (Wednesday) he was here catching up on some work and brought her little boy with him.
(she has a 3yo from a prev. marriage)

At one point he asked if it was OK if he brought her over to the house to hang out while he finished up. I made a face, and said "Fine..whatever". I've allowed this before...and I was miserable, and but I wanted him to stay here so the kids could see him.
He saw my face, and said "Nevermind"...
I made excuses..then I said "You know..thank you.
I don't like her..I've never liked her..blah blah blah" He said "but she's family"
My reply "She's not MY family, and her kid is not MY family."
He got upset and said "Well you seem to like her when we're bowling" I replied "It's amazing what one can accomplish when they are patient and tolerant..and are doing it for their kids".

My husband is mad because I don't like the 20 year old (just turned BTW) that he knocked up.
And that I don't like being the babysitter for her kid. I asked him if he would be so generous as to babysit for MY boyfriend (if I ever find one). He, of course, had no reply.

Am I over-reacting? Is he over-reacting?
Should I graciously accept my H's girlfriend into my home and serve her tea?
(i'm not sure if he's wayward or not...all of the physical stuff happened after we were separated..I think)

If this is confusing, I apologize. It confuses me sometimes too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If only soap-operas were this good LOL

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear squeeker,

I don't think you are over-reacting at all--who in the heck does he think he is????? He screwed up and now he expects you to accept HER---coooommmmeeee onnnnnnnn--unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

I have some questions before I give anymore opinions--

Is he still living with you and your children?
Do you want him back as your husband?
Are you in counseling?
What does he seem to want from you? (other than his stupid idea of integrated family) Does he want to fix the marriage and be true to the vows?

Squeeker, it sounds to me like you have totally lost sight of the concept of self respect and BOUNDARIES and have allowed unimaginable abuse to take place.

Your H should not bring any evidence of an adulterous relationship into your home. Not in front of you, not in front of your children. You should have nothing to do whatsoever with his mistress or her children.

It doesn't matter if you "like" her, she is partially responsible for the destruction of your family and should certainly not be accepted by you or your children. Your children should not be exposed to his decadent behavior, nor led to believe there is anything normal or acceptable about it.

Start protecting yourself and your children NOW. Your children cannot count on their father to protect them, so it falls to you to protect them from this insanity by taking a stand. And unless you start protecting them and demanding basic respect from your H, you have no one to blame but yourself. Put a stop to this NOW.

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

MelodyLane is right on...listen to her wise words..

I'm a guy and I think your husband is a real jerk! Listen to MelodyLane...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Squeeker:
<strong>
(i'm not sure if he's wayward or not...all of the physical stuff happened after we were separated..I think)

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did it happen when you were married? If an emotional or physical relationship happend when you were married, then it is an affair and he is a wayward H. He is having an adulterous affair and probably left you so he could continue unimpeded.

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Sometimes a person is so close to a situation, and dealing with so much emotionally that they can't see the wood for the trees. It helps sometimes to have others who've been there try to sort out with you what is ACTUALLY going on, especially when you have a spouse who is lying, trying to cover their tracks and blaming you for the marriage breakdown (which most WS do).

From reading your post, I understand this:

Your H left the marital home 3 months ago, leaving you and your four children. Before he left, he had become emotionally involved with a 19 year old girl who already had a 3-yr old son (presumably she's a single mum). After he left the home, he became physically involved with her and now she says she's pregnant. She has just turned 20.

Three months after he left you, your husband wants to bring his new lover and her son into your home as part of your family and expects her and her son to be included in your family time. He also still does some work, either at, or from, your home, and would like to feel free to bring her child with him sometimes, so you can look after it, presumably when his lover has other things she has to do besides looking after her own 3-yr old.

Without meaning to be rude, and I am REALLY NOT trying to be rude - I hope the word "used" has come up for you. Also, the phrase "rubbing your nose in it." Because that's exactly what he is doing to YOU right now.

I can understand how confused you must feel, and I say that because I have been there - my H "fell in love" with 2 girls - one younger, one older than your H's OW - thankfully, neither R went physical, and we are now trying to patch up our M - but I can understand how confused you must feel. I was told I was "pathologically jealous", that I was "imagining things", that it was all my fault, and that our M breakdown had nothing to do with his behaviour, but all to do with me. These are classic WS lines, when a WS refuses, or has no intention of facing his own bad behaviour.

You said - I don't like the girl, and it has nothing to do with the current situation.

First off - you have a right not to like this girl under normal circumstances - but I think under the present circumstances, no matter how nice a person she might have been (IF she hadn't gotten involved with a married man), or how nice a person she once was, you have EVERY right not to ever like this person again, given her part in the breakdown of your marriage and the destruction of your family. Period.

And I would hazard a guess that she isn't a particularly nice person, no matter how young she is. She obviously isn't innocent, otherwise she wouldn't already have a 3-yr old. Do you know how they met, and how they managed to get so close? Do you believe his story? You say that the "physical" happened after he left the home. How do you know that for sure - have you just believed him if this is what he has told you? Regardless of whether or not the physical happened after he left the home, what happened here is that your H had an affair with a teenage girl which broke up your family. His affair is ongoing, and it is just that - an affair - because regardless of whether or not he is still living with you, you are still married. He is just continuing an ongoing affair outside the home, which he started while he was in the home.

Am I over-reacting? Is he over-reacting?

You are NOT over-reacting and he is treating you like dirt. You have had the courage to start to try to stand up off the floor and stand up to him, by refusing to babysit her child or allow her in your home. Now you need to start sitting down and asking yourself some hard questions and trying to find the answers for yourself.

The people here can help you sort out what you are feeling, and offer our advice gained from experience, but we are not counselors. For myself, I would say that the help I got from this site did more for me than the counselors we sought help from. That may be because we were unlucky enough to get incompetent counselors, I don't know. I do feel that this site helped me more than anything else.

I think you need to sit down and write a list of what you feel you simply cannot tolerate - what is it that you cannot live with - so that when you get up in the morning and look at the face in the mirror, you are looking at a woman you respect and feel comfortable being. You may be unhappy, lonely, or stressed on any given morning, but do you have self-respect? If you have self-respect, you can find the strength to get through the other difficult feelings you are going through.

Second, but not necessarily second in priorities, is your children. How can you protect them, and yet make sure that they get time to see their father? It is you who will have to set the boundaries here, and this is your responsibility. If you have not done so already, I would seek legal advice. Your children are already hurting bad, and they are making their wishes known - they don't want to be forced to have a R with the woman who destroyed their family. And they want to see their father alone without her around. They do NOT want to have to compete with her for his love.

I know this is terribly difficult, but you can get through this.

In my own life, my parents' marriage broke up after my father got involved with a teenage girl. My father also wanted her to be a part of "our family", he wanted her to come LIVE with us - all of us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He told my mother after they were divorced that "if only you had let her come live with us, she would be long gone by now". I mean, talk about FOG! As children, we had to struggle to be noticed with a very demanding and competitive OW who was hardly older than we were. It was a terrible situation to have to deal with. On one occasion, shortly after the DV, my sister (the oldest) refused to go with my father, saying she wouldn't go if OW was along as well. My father exploded and stormed out of the house, yelling that if she wouldn't see OW, she didn't need to see HIM, and slammed the door so hard it broke off its hinges. To his 12-yr old daughter. Believe me, I can feel for what you and your kids are going through.

But....it comes back to how you are prepared to deal with this situation. Once you decide what you are prepared to do, then you need support to go about HOW you are going to do it. I would say right now that you can just take as a given that he is going to get mad when you start setting boundaries. Don't waste emotionaly energy being surprised or upset if he gets mad - expect that he will get mad, so that you can also be mentally prepared to deal with his anger.

Right now he is trying to call all the shots, and expecting you to live with it. You need to take back control over your life, and start protecting your children, and that starts with you. If you think you want to save your marriage, then ask yourself what kind of a marriage do you want? And do you have a chance of having it with him? Will you have a chance of recovering your marriage with him if you fail to stand up for yourself and your children? No. He will just continue to walk all over you. There's lots of people on this site who have been through similar things and come out the other side, or who are going through similar things right now.

Do you have family around to support you? And what do your families think of this? His family - your family?

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Thank you all for your responses..and Lady_in_Red, you have hit so many things dead on, I'd swear you were peeping in my windows. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll try to fill in some background here.
How they met: My H used to have a late night radio show, after the show he would go to a restaurant afterwards and meet listeners, have breakfast, etc. She was a waitress there, and they started talking. She gave him this hardluck story and he fell for it hook line and sinker.
She was basically homeless, going from friends house to friends house, no car, and "trying" (ha) to be a good mom to her son. She was a recovering meth addict (and who knows what else) divorced etc. He convinced his business partner to help her. They rented her a house, we got her utilities turned on, and got her a car.
My H has "White Knight Syndrome", I am coming to see this as a form of "co-depedenency". "I'll save them whether they like it or not!"
After he helped her and all, I told him I was glad that he had helped her, she needed it, now, let her go. (this was in March or April)
He wouldn't. I told him that things are going to get out of hand if he doesn't. He wouldn't listen. One weekend she left at least 12 messages on his cell phone professing her love for him.
I heard them and told him "This has got to stop!"
Did he listen? Of course not.
The first week of May, she was supposedly raped.
I say supposedly, because much of her story makes absolutely no sense. That made him latch on to her even more, because "She needs me".

During this whole time, my husband was going through a rough time. I call it a "mid life crisis" he calls it "Waking up". He started messing with drugs, drinking heavily, and just acting totally out of character. (He has since stopped all of that) He has come out of that fog, and he's actually nicer now than he ever has been.

We were talking, and he told me that he didn't know who I was anymore, that he didn't know who he was anymore, and he said he wanted to separate to give us time to figure that out.
Other reasons for our separation were "you don't clean the house good enough" He's a neat freak, I'm not. I pointed out that we have 4 kids and a small zoo, and quite frankly, he's lucky the house is still standing somedays. No, he didn't help me with the house stuff. When I would ask for help he would tell me "I'll help you when you learn to do it yourself". Um hello? If I could do it myself, I wouldn't be asking for help!
He said If I loved him the way I said I did, the house would be cleaner. (that's my MIL talking, she said things like that to him while he was growing up and in my prescense "If you love me then you'll...)
I gained weight...well, yeah, I gained weight, there's no denying that, but I didn't do it because I didn't love him.
I threw myself into the kids and forgot about myself..and him. Well, duh, we have 4 kids ages 11, 9, 8 and 6 (all about to have b'days)
There were days when a shower was a luxory, and buying stuff for myself? HA! Kind of hard to go shopping when you have 4 kids who are constantly growing out of their clothes, ripping jeans, and just needing things. As far as forgetting him...I never forgot him, and I pointed out, yet again, that if he had helped more, then there would have been more time for him..for us.
He also said I was too dependent on him.
Whatever. He's got a 20 year old leach now who can't get a bug out of her kitchen without callig him. Who's dependent? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am proud to say that since we have separated, I've called him a total of 2 times with a problem I needed help with.
He also called me a "judgemental old biddy" and that I was too "snarky". Still haven't quite figured that one out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway...back to the present.
Before she said she was pregnant, he and I were making progress on reconciling. He was distancing himself from her without setting her off.
I agreed to that, because, quite frankly, the girl ain't stable. Have you ever seen Fatal Attraction? There's a reason my best friend and I call her "Bunny Boiling Psycho". (BBP for short)
Her news threw a monkey wrench in our plans, and I felt like we were starting back at 0.
I told him that we can still work on us, but she had to go. He and I could help her, WHEN/IF the baby got her, until then, he has no obligation to her. He doesn't see it that way.
Now, if she doesn't get her way, she threatens to abort the baby. I told him to call her bluff, and does he really want a manipulative CHILD being the mother to his child. He didn't say anything.
We are about to go into a period of "Semi-NC".
He and his business partner purchased a bigtruck, and H is going to drive it. She is going to lose it without him being there to hold her hand to go to the bathroom.
He confides in me that she is driving him crazy, but he doesn't want her to abort the baby.
I've pointed out my doubts about the pregnancy, but he's not really listening. (at least I don't think he is)
She has said that she wants to go with him on trips. I stopped that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I talked to his partner (who can't stand her) and begged him for a "no-riders" policy. I can't go, but she can't go either. He agreed to it and I'm fine with it.

My H has even talked about telling her he's going to be out for 2 weeks at a time, but coming HERE after 1 week, then going back out. I'm finding the loads for the truck..I can do that easily:)

He has apologized numerous times for getting "us" in this situation. "Her getting preg was not supposed to happen, us working out stuff out was."

He says that once she gets past the point that she can legally have an abortion, their relationship is going to change. He's just trying to keep her stable. Don't know if I buy that one or not.

Our children....
When we first met her, they liked her. She was "dad's friend", she was fun, and she was cool.
Of course she is, she's not that much older than them. (I have mom friends with kids older than her) Now that it is obvious that their relationship was more than friends, their attitude towards her has changed. At least with my older 2. My oldest son wants to put "waxworms" in her car so they turn into moths. And he gets angry when he hears her name. My oldest daughter, confided in me that she doesn't believe there's a baby. "She's just trying to hold on to Dad".
(she's 9 and scary smart) My younger 2 don't "get" everything, but they aren't thrilled that she's around either.

The situation you described with your father and the 12 year old. I think my kids think their dad will get angry if they tell him they don't want to be around her. They tell me that they don't like it, and I tell them they have got to tell Daddy, but they won't. I can't tell him, because, in the past, when I have told him things they have said he says I'm making it up..or making more of it than what there is. Or I'm trying to take him on a guilt trip.

As far as family goes. All of my family has passed away, I do have several close friends that I talk to, and quite frankly, they are ready to strangle both of them.
His family. His father was in almost the exact same situation, and has refused to give advice because he "screwed up his own life..not going to help his son screw his up". My MIL..She knows we are separated, but I don't think she knows about the current situation unless my FIL has told her.
(they've been divorced for 20+ years)

Oh...the reason I have watched her kid for her sometimes. My H tells me that he wants the kid to see what a real mother is. I'm not sure of her visitation arrangements, but when she is lying around the house doing nothing she sends him to the babysitters. My house is busy and bustling all the time and he has a good time here, but I'm not going to be the kids "other mother".

I want to work on our marriage, I can get past this and we can work out visitation and child support if there is indeed a baby.
He says he wants that then another day he says he wants a D. So, I'll just take things as they come. Right now, whatever happens, happens.
My kids and I will be fine.

They say the best revenge is living well.
I've been doing that. I've lost almost 50 pounds, and he has definitely noticed. I'm not sulking around the house, and quite frankly, the reason I've been nice to the little tramp is to rub it in her face that I am the mature one, and she is the spoiled brat 20 year old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm sorry I've rambled on, and again..if it's confusing..I apologize. I'll be happy to clarify anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks.

The young OW and her son don't need to be anywhere you house or children.

As for your husband being a White Knight maybe he does have a good side but a White Knight doesn't manipulate and sleep with those they are saving.

Take a stand. Get the OW out of your lives. Change bowling teams or leagues.

I'm also a guy (BS) and your husband is working on every angle to get what he needs.

Squeeker,

Please don't allow him to do this. I know you feel you are plan Aing but actually you are just self destrucitng. I did this. I allowed my ex H OW daughter to move back with him to our house because of the bad situation that was in that house. Although I felt I was doing it for the right reasons it was totally wrong. My kids to this day resent that more than anything else. Do not let your H selfishness upset or destroy your children. He should not be bringing this child to your home. In fact I would not allow him in my home if he has that much disregard to the family he has there. I think Plan B is in order.

Part of marriage rebuilding is also self esteem rebuilding and you can't build your self esteem by allowing this type of behavior. I learned that the hardway.

Your first responsibility is to your children and to their well being and state of mind.

If your kids don't want to see their Dad there is reasons for it don't force it. Remember he is the one who left them. He is playing you like a puppet by making you spend time with him and his OW and the kids. He wants it all and right now you are giving him exactly what he wants. I may sound harsh but I did the same thing and I have regretted it ever since.

You are a strong independant person and you need to work on yourself right now. Spend time with the kids do fun things and put him on the back burner right now. You can't change him or this situation he put you in but you can change how you handle it.

Jill

Squeeker,

Your husband has found a way to have two wives for himself, instead of just one. Is this okay with you?

over-reacting?

I call your reaction UNDER-REACTING.

Protect your children at all costs. Keep this woman away from them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Squeeker:
<strong>I'm not sulking around the house, and quite frankly, the reason I've been nice to the little tramp is to rub it in her face that I am the mature one, and she is the spoiled brat 20 year old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Squeeker, it is not a sign of maturity to aide in the destruction of your children's family and your marriage by being "nice" to the OW. It is called ENABLING. Being nice to her has only enabled her to do further damage. You are trying to appeal to a conscience that doesn't exist. She is just using it to her advantage, as you can see. She is using your "niceness" to help her destroy your children's family. That is not maturity to refuse to protect your family from harm.

I hope you take some of the advice above and start taking steps to protect yourself and your children from this mess. I fail to see how it is anything but profoundly destructive to associate with or be nice to someone whose goal it is to destroy your marriage and the family of your children. You should not associate with her at all.

How very confusing to your children to see you act as if this destructive woman is just a normal friend. She is anything but and it is very important that you put an end to this injustice. Your marriage counts on it.

In effect, you are enabling this affair and the subsequent ruiniation of your marriage and your children's family. Not only will you refuse to fight for your family, but you are handing it over to the enemy. Your H has NO PRESSURE to end this affair because of your lack of reaction.

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Dear Squeeker -

Thanks for filling us in with the background info - what a wild ride you've had!

I want to get back to you, but I am off the computer for a few days - please don't go away - I do think you have a chance to recover your marriage and you are doing well with yourself, it looks like. Please stick around, as others can help you come up with ways to deal with your situation. Orchid is especially good with psycho OW.

We do care.

Take care,
LIR

Thanks everyone for your replies.
I know that it looks like I have been very passive in handling this, and I guess in a way I have, but there is a method to my madness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Over the past few months, I noticed that the more I complained about her the more it pushed him to her. So, I decided to lay off that and try a different approach. If he says he's staying over there, or doesn't come home, I don't make a big deal about it. A cheery "OK and see ya when you get here" is my reply. Enabling? Perhaps, but it's also the polar opposite of her.
She nags and whines when he's not there, finds excuses for him to come over there and usually calls repeatedly. *That* drives him crazy.
She's also giving him ultimatums. (sp?) He doesn't respond well to those at all, I know this, she doesn't. Am I telling her? Heck no. LOL

He stopped by yesterday to grab a couple of faxes he needed and told me, as a friend, that she was threatening to abort the baby because he hasn't cut ties with me completely.
I told him, as a friend, "You cannot make her carry a baby that she doesn't want..and do you really want to be involved with a person who's going to threaten that if she doesn't get her way?
You have to admit, dear, that's pretty damn low.
And if she's doing this now..what fun you are going to have for the next 18-20 years"
I also told him that her threatening this just adds to my suspicion that she's not really pregnant. I asked why no doctor yet..not even to confirm the pregnancy (she's "known" for a month")
He used the excuse of not having the cash to do it yet. I told him there are plenty of free clinics around, and the paper work for the insurance won't be touched until the pregnancy is confirmed by something more than a 3 pack of test from WalGreens. He then said "She's already showing" I replied "BS! That's BigMacs!
She's at the most 8 weeks along, if she's showing already..it ain't yours." (y'all wouldn't believe how much weight she's gained in the past couple of months...even before she said she was pregnant. Am I finding a little pleasure in that? Yup yup)
He said "I'm trying to talk to you like this as a friend..but you are a bit biased" I told him that what I'm telling you is nothing I wouldn't tell J or L if they came to me with the same problem.
He asked what I was going to do if/when the preg.test came back positive. I told him "That's something we will deal with when/if it happens.
But I'm not making it my problem...it's yours. MY children are my problem".

He left and told the kids and I that he would be back later. He didn't come back..but he did call, and tell me. I told him that he needed to tell the kids because they were going to be very upset. He, again, told me not to take him there...guilt trip..blah blah blah
Fine..I'll deal with this now..and you can deal with it tomorrow.
My kids had a flippin' melt down.
I have never seen them so angry at him.
I got them calmed down and we talked.
I told them that all of this wasn't dad's fault..it wasn't all "her" fault...and it wasn't all my fault...it was all of our faults. And none of it had anything to do with them, but it sucks that it's affecting them, and that sometimes adults are just plain stupid. They agreed..but didn't want to say that any of it was my fault. "You're always here mom, you never break a promise"
I'll give 'em that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When he came over today, my oldest two met him at the door and followed him around until he talked to them. They *finally* told him that they were angry at him. He listened...and he apologized to them.
Later, he went to the store and my daughters went with him. On the way my oldest daughter took advantage of the inability for him to escape and told him exactly how she feels.
"I feel like you pick her over us all the time.
You break promises, and you said you wouldn't do that."
She also told him that "Mom said you sometimes don't listen to her because you said she makes stuff up or over exaggerates..so I'm telling you now. She doesn't and she's not. We're mad".
She was exhausted when she got back..she said that talking about feelings is hard.
I hugged her and told her how proud I am of her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He's been here since noon trying to get a new operating system installed on his laptop.
I don't think she's called..and I don't think he's called her. I've been going about my business with my normal Saturday stuff.
It's been really nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Almost "normal".

I don't know if I'm handling this the right way..I don't know if there is a right way.
He's been doing nice little things for me recently. Things he didn't used to do.
And, when I fit into much smaller jeans the other day, he bought me a pretty gold choker necklace with a pendant as a congratulations present.
I think she was with him when he bought it:)

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
And thanks for listening <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Squeeker:
[QB]
I know that it looks like I have been very passive in handling this, and I guess in a way I have, but there is a method to my madness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Over the past few months, I noticed that the more I complained about her the more it pushed him to her. So, I decided to lay off that and try a different approach. If he says he's staying over there, or doesn't come home, I don't make a big deal about it. A cheery "OK and see ya when you get here" is my reply. Enabling? Perhaps, but it's also the polar opposite of her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Squeeker, yes it is enabling. You have gone to the opposite extreme, which is just as, if not more destructive. He essentially has a harem and really has no motivation to end the affair as long as there are no consequences to his actions and no boundaries that can't be crossed with you. You have demonstrated that you will tolerate anything in order to keep the peace.

While it is important to avoid lovebusters, which only serves to push them into the arms of the OP, it is equally important to not make it so easy for them to continue the relationship that you ENABLE the affair. As it is now, he can have his cake and eat it too for as long as he pleases. With your help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She nags and whines when he's not there, finds excuses for him to come over there and usually calls repeatedly. *That* drives him crazy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he can tolerate that forever because he can always come home and get away from her for a while. Then go back to her when the spirit moves him. HOWEVER, if were trying to get his needs met *only* by her, he would quickly learn that she is not equipped to fill his needs ALONE. But this is not a problem, because you have enabled him to get his needs met in TWO places. Without complaint.

NOW, if you moved to Plan B and set down some much needed boundaries, ie: "contact me when you get rid of the OW", he would quickly see that she is not sufficient and have proper motivation to get rid of her. But you are protecting him from seeing that by your lack of boundaries.

You are essentially prolonging the affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My kids had a flippin' melt down.
I have never seen them so angry at him.
I got them calmed down and we talked.
I told them that all of this wasn't dad's fault..it wasn't all "her" fault...and it wasn't all my fault...it was all of our faults. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it is ALL HIS FAULT. To say otherwise is insulting doublespeak and profoundly disrespectful to your children. Your H made a choice to break his promise, no one else. You should not protect him from the consequences of his behavior.

I am also extremely alarmed that your children are put in a position to have to defend themselves to their father because you won't stand up for them. You should protect them instead of relying on the children to have to talk to their dad about appropriate behavior.

There seems to be no one in this situation who will defend and protect them from this destructive situation. Not only is your H allowed to run roughshod over them, but his girlfriend is allowed to invade THEIR home with visits and phone calls. This is profoundly destructive to children when NO ONE will protect them.

Please take steps to protect your children from this very sick situation. And consider moving into a Plan that will not enable him to carry on this affair. Your actions only serve to enable him as I described above. There is absolutely no virtue in assisting your H and the OW in the destruction of your family.

Squeeker,

Here is an article written by Harley about the dangers of enabling the affair and the importance of Plan B:

"Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. "

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Melody...great posts...

squeeker..
I can barely get my thoughts about what you are enduring and allowing in to your and your childrens worlds....

very scary to me is the WS feeble attempts at making the unacceptable acceptable...

It becomes even more difficult when children are witness to such behaviors...for when it confuses us...as your WS is very confused...that confusion is compounded in a child's mind...

I told them that all of this wasn't dad's fault..it wasn't all "her" fault...and it wasn't all my fault...it was all of our faults.

The other side is that a lot of this IS dad's fault...and her fault...

this does not mean to have you to verbally attack their father...but unacceptable behavior is unacceptable...

be wary of them learning to accept gross disrepect in their lives a because mom is struggling with this as well...

please research posts on babbling back to his insanity...

please research posts on divorce busting and 180's

no matter how much dust accumalates on the TV screen..never ever ever ever ever...does that equal love for a spouse....

I think there are lots of boundaries and areas that you can gain more control over...

some of that is deciding what qualities you value in yourself and your marriage..and not to lower those values and expectations out of fear of your actions will cause him to abandon or do something...

Even re-defining the meaning of friendship for the sake of not "losing" is a dangerous slope...his actions alone towards you are not friend like at all..

they are rote with betrayal and pain...
he is not acting as your friend....I am not suggesting you become his enemy...but I am suggesting you seek serious limits and boundaries over what you expose yourself to.

I believe you should be on talk radio...and the topic could be outrageous spouses...
you'd be a hit... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

protect yourself...and those children,
he needs to know that as it is for all of us ..there are direct consequences to our actions...

blessings to your home
ARK

<small>[ September 07, 2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Ok had some coffee..here's some things I suggest..

1. Quit answering the phone...screen calls..let him leave a message about why he is not coming after telling the children he would...he is soley accountable to them for that ...NOT YOU...be pleasant when he gets mad when you don't answer the phone...babble back you and kids were playing music and dancing and must have missed his call...sorry about that...

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.

** I would seriously suggest you let him have time with the kids...BUT be very busy with other things....keep redirecting back to children..
even better when he comes in to visit children..
YOU LEAVE...looking good being upbeat..and go somewhere....I'll be back in a bit...enjoy your visit...
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.

quit discussing HER at all...he is the issue not her....change the subject if he brings her up..become allusive...babble back...
lots of comments like ...
really?
huh?
hmmmmm I see
interesting ...very interesting...

get it...he says to you ...she's threatening to abort the baby....(I can not tell you the bile that rises in my throat to hear that)...
you reply...
hhhhmmmmmm, interesting

and end that conversation there...with some trivial follow up like...
do you think govenor davis will win the election or be impeached...batt your eyes...

dissassociate with any aspects of her...
lose all interests in her...there is lots of drama here for him...and all this external drama draws attention away from the real issues at hand..his behavior..

he sees you...you guys talk about HER
he sees her...they talk about you...(when is he cutting contact with you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

round and round ya'll go...and it keeps all attention and focus off of him..
what would they talk about if it wasn't for you??
and how evil you are??
hhhmmmmmmmm I can think of lots things..
like the consequances to their actions and choices...

remove yourself from their sick triangle...

11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

he says... He said "I'm trying to talk to you like this as a friend..but you are a bit biased"

OH MY GOD...this is the perfect example of a good time to double over laughing...becasue that statement is too too too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have slapped him on the back and said...
"That's a good one...."
good thing I wasn't drinking something when you said that one...I surely would have snorted milk out my nose....funny funny stuff there dear...

Know that restraining orders are available if you really believe she is capable of threatening you or your family...do not let her potential to escalate hinder you from setting boundaries...

she can boil all the bunnies she wants...just not on your stove...let her self destruct...
do not give in or feed in to her behaviors out your own fear of what she might do...
document any interactions you have with her...

You should be counselling as well...I am even concerned that "he is being nicer to you than ever"...how did he used to treat you..?

strength to you
ARK

If I tell him to "pick one" I know he's going to pick her for the sole purpose of keeping the unborn child alive. (if there is one)
She has told him repeatedly that if he stops seeing her, she will abort the baby. (she's aborted at least one in the past)
She is obsessed with him, I don't call her "Bunny Boiling Psycho" for nothing.

In the next couple of weeks, he's going to start drivng an 18-wheeler and is not going to be home much at all. She is NOT allowed to go with him (neither am I) per orders of the "boss" with a little urging from me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We all work for the same small company, and I was told, by the boss (who is also H's bestfriend) that if she so much as asks to go, she's fired.
I think him getting in the truck is the best thing for him and the entire situation.
He will be away from both of us. I can deal with it, (he used to drive years ago), she isn't going to be able to. Whatever she chooses to do at that point, is beyond anyone's control but her own.
I see her self-destructing.

I did have a bit of "divine justice" this weekend. He called Sunday night and said that her ex had just called, and her little boy has lice, and I needed to check the kids. (my youngest had them, but not bad). He said that she was "infested" and it was "just gross".
I shouldn't have laughed, but I couldn't help it.
(I didn't let him hear me though)
The thing that struck me as odd though, is that he didn't have them. I checked him myself.
If they were sharing a bed, wouldn't he have them as well?

Another little thing happened yesterday.
When she told him she was pregnant, she bought him a tag for the front of his Surburban that says "*** luvs *****" He put it on his truck to make her happy. It was the tackiest, most "high school" thing I've ever seen. I refused to drive the Surburban, becuase it was just a stupid thing
(and my name isn't *****)
Last night, he came by and tucked the kids in and we watched a little TV. He grabbed some software he needed, told me "bye" and that he would be here this morning to take the kids to school.
He came back to the door and said "Oh, come here".
I walked to the truck and he handed me "the tag".
I looked at it and he said "Look down". He had removed the tacky tag, and had gotten a new one that just says our last name.
I grinned and said "That's a very nice tag".
I was fiddling with the other tag and I asked "What do you want me to do with this?"
(my bestfriend has offered the services of a woodchipper) He said "Eh..just throw it in the top of the closet or something".
I asked him "And what does she think about this?"
"She's not happy about it...oh well"
Again...I have to laugh. I am a ********. Our children are ********. She will NEVER be a ********. (he has told her repeatedly and me too, that if we don't work this out, he's not marrying her. No way. No how)

He called after he left, to make sure Ihad everything I needed. "I'm good, thanks" (ack! I was out of Diet Dr.Pepper, but I told him I was good...LOL) We talked a bit more and he said "I've got one of the worst headaches I've ever had..if I die of an anuerysm before morning, please know that I love you and the kids".
He was laughing when he said it..but he meant it as well.

I'm doing all the things that you listed Ark, and he's noticing, and it's making him NUTS!
I've lost a lot of weight, and I look the best I've looked in years. He told me "You look good....you look real good...you've got it goin' on". (before he used to say that I was just loosing weight to try and get him back, I told him, I was loosing weight before you left, you just didn't notice)
My nails are perfect ($23 for a manicure and therapy isn't bad. I love my nail tech)
My hair is great, I always wear make-up, and unless I'm completely and totally stressed out because of something else, I'm always in a good mood.
He's here now, in the bedroom, working on his laptop trying to get it ready to go in the truck.
(and because I make the best coffee:))
I'm in the living room, just doing my own thing.
I'm not hovering, I'm not doing anything, but being me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I am handling this the wrong way. But for right now, considering everything. It's the way that's working for us.
Oh, and as far as the kids go. I am protecting them. My kids have always come first, and they are coming first now. As far as them talking to their father, they tell me when they are unhappy about something, and we discuss it and figure out a solution. I want them to have the same relationship with him.