I will try to keep this short.

W keeps breaking POJA. For instance:

W has credit card debt so we decide not to go shopping anywhere or spend any money, other then for gas, without the other one. No if we talk about it before hand and agree on what to purchase we can go shopping alone, but only if it is agreed on. Now I find this very frustrating for me because I am not the onw with the shopping problem. But I know this is necessary in order to help W and to help us.

Problem is, three times in the last month W has gone shopping without me and without asking me how I felt about her shopping. In fact the only way I found out about two of them was to snoop through her purse! The third time she told because I asked her what she did that day.

Another example:
Thursday night, W asks me how I felt about her work schedule. See, Friday morining she had to go to work at office #1 but was done about noon. Then on Monday she was going to go into work early at office #2 to finish up some things there before starting her normal day. I told her I felt unhappy with this idea since that would make for a really long day for her and she usually is crabby after such long days. So we negotiated, and decided that since she was done so early on Friday and since I was working late that she could go to office #2 in the afternoon so as not to go in early on Monday.

The kicker, Friday afternoon we talk (I am at work) and she says that she decided she is going to go home and just go in early on Monday. I get upset but tried to camly remind her that that is not what we had agreed on. She said that is what she wants to do. So I asked her why does she ask how I feel about things if she is going to ignore me? As it turned out, she went into offie #2 on Friday but was very upset about it.

So now I have emotionally shut down. I give up telling her how I feel or what I think. The last time this happened she had her afair.

My head is really sore from being beaten against the wall. Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks froma very frustrated
STTSI

STTSI keep in mind that years old habits are not going to change overnight. It's going to take consistent effort before the old bad habits are replaced with the new good habits. Make sure that you yourself don't break the POJA or it's going to sound hypocritical to IR2T when you bring up her violation of it. Don't shut down because then you will be in violation of the rule of honesty with your W, and you will be silently enabling her old bad habits.

TMCM-

Thanks for your response. What am I supposed to do when she asks for my opinion or my feelings only to be ignored? I ask her why she broke POJA and her response is "I dunno."

After being ignored for so long I guess I have learned to just keep my mouth shut. I figure if I don't tell her anything, then she can't ignore me. But, that doesn't make me happy either.

When she breaks it, I remind her of what we had agreed on and that I feel hurt that she breaks our agreements. She says "you are right, I am sorry." I guess I don't want sorry, I want action.

What should I do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STTSI:

"After being ignored for so long I guess I have learned to just keep my mouth shut. I figure if I don't tell her anything, then she can't ignore me. But, that doesn't make me happy either.

When she breaks it, I remind her of what we had agreed on and that I feel hurt that she breaks our agreements. She says "you are right, I am sorry." I guess I don't want sorry, I want action.

What should I do?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Calmly and respectfully convey to her that by violating the POJA, she is withdrawing love units during a still very crucial time of marital recovery. Validate and humor her that the POJA can certainly be a pain in the [censored] to adhere to BUT that by following it faithfully, you are BOTH putting your money where your mouths are when it comes to The Rule Of Protection . It does no good to either of you, and the marriage, if the love buster called independent behavior is still a part of your lives.

STTSI,

I view this as an honesty issue, but not where you think. I think she is not being honest with the POJA. Recall that both parties MUST be in enthusiastic agreement with the POJA and your W is not. So I think you two need to review the POJA process.

I agree with Coffeeman, old habits die hard, but you should NOT have to snoop to find out that it was broken. That is another POJA that must be negotiated: honesty, of... yes breaking the POJA.

Even the office issues clearly wasn't POJA'd like it needed to be. You were unhappy with her decision and clearly she was as well with the POJA.

What you two sort of have to get over is the POWER struggle that seems to be taking place. Neither of you have any power over one another except what each decides to give to the other. She needs to see this.

Plus, I think her work schedule should be here own, with in reason, and if she comes home grumpy tell her. And then ask her to offer some solutions to these problems. You are NOT her parole officer and I suspect you don't enjoy the role you are in.

It seems evident to me, and it should be to her, that your trust is HER issue and she must address it. If she cannot, then going through marriage albeit one as short as yours, is not worth it.

So go back and talk about the POJA and what it is supposed to be. Both of you enthusiastically agreeing to do or not do something.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>

STTSI:

I really liked these points that JL just made:

"What you two sort of have to get over is the POWER struggle that seems to be taking place. Neither of you have any power over one another except what each decides to give to the other."

I agree. It's 2 easy 2 get bogged down by the "rules" recommended here on MB. Don't just follow rules, UNDERSTAND them as they apply (or don't) 2 your own lives. Be yourselves, not some reconstructed version of yourselves. But by that I don't mean throw the recommendations out, either. Internalize them, make them a part of your very na2re, AS THEY APPLY 2 YOU.

IR2T:

"I was once told that I could post here as the fws, but H and I couldn't post to each other."

Is this some MB "rule" that I've missed? Or is it something that the 2 of you agreed on. I guess I'm not sure what the value of this is. But I could be convinced, I suppose.

"I know that two wrongs don't make a right,"

No, they don't. But three lefts do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

♥2long

IM,

There is no rule that you cannot post to one another. However, it is counter productive if you two are just going to argue about something. However, it has been the case that when couples post to one another and other people see the dynamics they get a better idea of how to offer advice to both of you.

Clearly, you erased something before I saw your response, but you can definitely post.

I do hope my comments about the POJA are of use to you and H.

God Bless,

JL

So I'm really curious is posting this topic and content were discussed in advance and if it was agreed to with enthusiasm?

POJA is simple... so simple that we just don't want to get it. And we all tend to think that whatever our personal desire is at the moment it falls outside the rule because it's a "special" case. But it's not. Unless your spouse is thrilled with whatever it is you want to do ... or you want them to do.... it doesn't happen. Black and white.

Now the subtlty of the rule is that there is a deeper level. Yes, POJA gives you veto power, but it also assumes that you will discuss cooperatively the needs and feelings of each of you and find a way to a solution that takes all that into account.

And of course all that assumes radical honesty and a willingness to be kind, courteous, empathetic and respectful.

The real question then is what's happening that either party would feel the need to violate a rule you've agreed on. And that's a question that needs to be asked and considered with care and kindness rather than confrontationally.

C

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>

STTSI and IM,

POJA requires that you negotiate a solution or an action. It is often suggested that BOTH of you offer your own solution or action to the other. Then if they differ discuss what the merits of each approach are. THEN, if both seem to have merit, BUT neither really satisfies the other, you two sit down and brain storm approaches that might comprise all of the merits of both approaches or as many as possible.

Then sit back look at it and see if it fills the bill for both of you. This is NOT a contest. It is simply the two of you WORKING TOGETHER to find the best solutions. But, to find the best solutions you both need to bring some ideas to the table. Ideas that appeal to you. That allows you both to see what the other would like and how they might like to proceed. If you don't have a strong opinion, the idea is to NOT agree with the other or disagree, but still do your best of offer something for consideration.

This is NOT about rejection, but simply trying to find the best POJA that you two can. Just remember you two are a TEAM in this, NOT adversaries. The POJA is for BOTH of you and is not meant to be a sacrifice on either of your parts. If one of you feels you are sacrificing, then more discussion should occur

God Bless,

JL

Sorry, got busy for a little while. Thanks for all your responses. I will respond to W first then everyone else in order.

IMR2T
<strong>My problem - I have NEVER been a negotiatior. I have always given into whatever anyone else wanted. POJA (negotiation) is a new thing for me, difficult at best </strong>

I would agree with W on this. So how can W become a better negotiater? How can I help her with this? I am trying to vent my frustration away from W so she will feel safe telling me her thoughts and feelings. I think I have come leaps and bounds here and I don't see any change from W. W, please tell me either here or in person if I need to work on this further and if you have any ideas of how.

<strong>Why do I break POJA? Maybe because what we agreed upon was fine for the time, but not now. Now I want to renegotiate? Is that possible?? </strong>

This is the first I have heard of this. W, you can always re-negotiate something. But, the re-negotiation needs to be done BEFORE the action is taken, not after. Take the work thing for example: if you wanted to take the afternoon off because it was a nice day, then please call me and ask how I feel about it. I was upset because you said this is what I am going to do and it wasn't what we agreed on. I think re-negotiation is always an option.

<strong>The jist of the conversation was that because I didn't give a crap about his feelings, why should he care about mine. So if I am not going to follow the rules (POJA), why is he? H, if I am wrong, please correct me.</strong>

You are right.

TMCM
<strong>Calmly and respectfully convey to her that by violating the POJA, she is withdrawing love units during a still very crucial time of marital recovery.</strong>

I have tried this again and again and all I get is "I know, I'm sorry." While I can permit a few slips since we all make mistakes, I really struggle to see improvement.

<strong>It does no good to either of you, and the marriage, if the love buster called independent behavior is still a part of your lives.</strong>

You are very right, this is how the A started in the first place. I just get tired of being ignored.

JL
<strong>Even the office issues clearly wasn't POJA'd like it needed to be. You were unhappy with her decision and clearly she was as well with the POJA.</strong>

See, that is the problem. This issue was something that I thought we POJA'd. We sat down and discussed the issue, discussed options and agreed on a course of action. It was later that she made the decision to do what she wanted and not what we had agreed on.

<strong>What you two sort of have to get over is the POWER struggle that seems to be taking place. Neither of you have any power over one another except what each decides to give to the other. She needs to see this.</strong>

Very true!

<strong>Plus, I think her work schedule should be here own, with in reason, and if she comes home grumpy tell her. And then ask her to offer some solutions to these problems. You are NOT her parole officer and I suspect you don't enjoy the role you are in.</strong>

You are right her work schedule is hers to worry about, as long as it doesn't adversly affect our M. Her comming home grumpy adversly affects our M. That is why I felt unhappy with her schedule and proposed another option that I would be enthusiastic about. We discussed it and I thought agreed on it. You are partially right about the parole officer, I feel like a parent. I don't want that, I want to be a husband and she my wife.

Cerri
<strong>So I'm really curious is posting this topic and content were discussed in advance and if it was agreed to with enthusiasm? </strong>

Not this was never agreed on. Like W said, I told her afterward.

<strong>Now the subtlty of the rule is that there is a deeper level. Yes, POJA gives you veto power, but it also assumes that you will discuss cooperatively the needs and feelings of each of you and find a way to a solution that takes all that into account.</strong>

The problem seems to be that the solution changes without my knowledge. Sometimes I think that instead of sitting in the car of life with my W where we are both driving, she is the driver and I am hanging on for dear life to the bumper as we squeel around. I want to be in the drivers seat with her there also.

<strong>The real question then is what's happening that either party would feel the need to violate a rule you've agreed on. And that's a question that needs to be asked and considered with care and kindness rather than confrontationally.</strong>

This truely is the crux of the issue.

<small>[ September 09, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Still Trying To Save It ]</small>

STTSI,

I tried to lay out in my last post how one really does POJA. It is clear that if she changes her mind, then somehow something was NOT agreed to.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Even the office issues clearly wasn't POJA'd like it needed to be. You were unhappy with her decision and clearly she was as well with the POJA.

See, that is the problem. This issue was something that I thought we POJA'd. We sat down and discussed the issue, discussed options and agreed on a course of action. It was later that she made the decision to do what she wanted and not what we had agreed on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did she explain to you later why she decided to make this decision? What was the advantage to her of doing what she did, AND losing more of your trust in her?? She needs to explain that to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you two sort of have to get over is the POWER struggle that seems to be taking place. Neither of you have any power over one another except what each decides to give to the other. She needs to see this.

Very true! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if it is true, what do you think is a solution for this power struggle? Divorce? separation?, mutual effort to addressing these things and consistent action?

STTSI, you and IM need to go back and read the 4 rules again. One of them is the rule of protection. She might explain to you how what she did protected you and your feelings for her? These 4 rules should be the basis of evaluating the POJA and the subsequent actions. Any agreement should meet these four rules for BOTH of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plus, I think her work schedule should be here own, with in reason, and if she comes home grumpy tell her. And then ask her to offer some solutions to these problems. You are NOT her parole officer and I suspect you don't enjoy the role you are in.

You are right her work schedule is hers to worry about, as long as it doesn't adversly affect our M. Her comming home grumpy adversly affects our M. That is why I felt unhappy with her schedule and proposed another option that I would be enthusiastic about. We discussed it and I thought agreed on it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! but you must understand that if you cannot POJA this and she comes home grumpy, you can leave. You can only do so much, if she won't help, and she is destroying your trust in her, then perhaps it is time to leave the marriage. I know this is marriage builders, but not all marriages can be saved, and she has done very little to help this one get off the ground. I don't mean to infer that she should crawl across ground glass, to beg your mercy on her "pitiful soul". No, she is a grown woman. This marriage is as much her responsibility as yours. Therefore, the POJA should mean as much to her as you. If they don't, you have the wrong woman. I hate to be blunt, but you cannot control her, and if she makes your life miserable, you can work with her, try, and forgive, but if that doesn't work, then you can and should consider the alternative.

HAVE IM read what I have said. She is a big girl, she needs to start doing what she agrees to do, or NOT agree to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are partially right about the parole officer, I feel like a parent. I don't want that, I want to be a husband and she my wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need for you to be. Please reread what I wrote about POJA and do it with IM. Discuss it, the methodology I mentioned. If it doesn't suit you two, then come up with something that does, BUT whatever you two agree to both of you must abide by it. I know trust is a big issue with you, and I know you really haven't been "married" to her long, and even less in a committed marriage.

It is time for both of you to get this right.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So, Tell me how THAT comment makes me want to POJA ANYTHING???? How is it that I am going to want to make a change in how I do things? SO, now when I do ask how he feels about things, that is the only comment that I get. SO Help me, how is this POJA'ing?????"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Prove him wrong by not doing anything. Cerri once said that she has spent many a days when she and her H did nothing but stare straight up at the ceiling until they came up with a mutually satisfying agreement between her and her H. So why not follow Cerri's lead and simply do nothing. You both may get a laugh from it as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>

Hey you guys can POJA not to POJA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

Just kidding (Just Learning's comic brother) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Ok, Coffeeman's Straight man is back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is it when I say H, I talked to my IC about andi depressants and we think it is a good idea for me to be on them. Okay, so H and I didn't agree that it was right for me to be on andi depressants, but we did talk about it. His comment to me is, "Ang, you are going to do whatever it is that you want to do regardless of what it is that I have to say about it. "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because this is NOT a negotiation as you stated it. First, your H is NOT a medical type is he? So why would he be against what your IC has recommended and you feel is necessary? What is he gaining from you NOT doing this?

If he doesn't agree what are the alternatives that he feels would work, and how does he make this determination? What is he afraid of?

I am not sure you POJA medical situations, but if you decide to do that, then you two need to sit down and discuss this. I am afraid that you think this is a 15 minute process. It is NOT. IT could take days as Coffeeman pointed out about Cerri's posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, Tell me how THAT comment makes me want to POJA ANYTHING???? How is it that I am going to want to make a change in how I do things? SO, now when I do ask how he feels about things, that is the only comment that I get, and I get it a lot lately. SO Help me, how is this POJA'ing????? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IM, he should not have to convince you of a darned thing. Plain truth is you should want to POJA everything so that he is happy in the marriage and so are you. If that is not a goal you want to acheive, I don't think it is your H's place to try and convince you. POJA'ing is not about feelings. It is about concrete actions directed at a specific thing or goal. It is about something that bothers one or both of you, and where you want a different outcome from resentment or failure.

IM you have to want this. Please go read the articles on this and some of Harley's books. As Cerri said it is very simple, but so simple that people often mess it up.

But, believe me on this. IF you don't see the value in it, and the necessity of it, your H cannot and probably should not try to convince you.

POJA is NOT an issue of control or power and you need to see this. It is an issue of trying to make you BOTH happy. It is clear from his posts that he feels that his happiness is NOT a major concern of yours when you make decisions about your time.

Do you see what we are driving at?? You seem to view his suggestion to use POJA as an afront to you. You seem to think than when you do agree to something that you just changing what you agreed to as something that he should just take. Am I wrong?

If so how and why am I wrong? Please enlighten me.

IM you have a vested interest in this marriage too. It should make you happy as well as him. What we are talking about are new skills and different ways of communicating and they are not easy to learn. But, they may lead you to a much happier life.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

OK, since she brought anti-d's into the thread, here it goes.

I know W and IC have talked about her getting on them again. I think that is a wonderful idea, EXCEPT twice she has been on them and twice she has tried to commit suicide by overdosing on them.

She know I am not real happy about her taking them again because of this reason. I have explained this to her, she simply says OK with no attempt at negotiation. So tonight she talks to her IC on the phone and asks what she needs to do to get on them again. After she is done I ask her if she is going to start taking them knowing how I feel about them and knowing that she hasn't talked to me further about it. So then she asks in a half-assed way how I feel about it.

So that is when I get upset and tell her that she will do whatever she wants to do regardless of how I feel. She then gets upset and leaves to vent to everyone here.

I am not trying to fight with my W here, but I don't know what to do anymore. JL, I will go back and re-read the 4 rules and POJA stuff and see if there is anything I am missing.

I am not trying to parent my W into taking or not taking anti-d's, I just really don't want her to kill herself!

H -

This was your thread to vent about me, I will keep my nose out of it & not vent here

<small>[ September 10, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>