P_b,

I've often thought that this issue has become emotionally abusive for you. Your H knows how deeply this hurts you, but he minimizes, dismisses, denies and lies. These are forms of emotional abuse when done over time. I found this article by Dr. Phil who you may or may not like...but I was struck by how similar what he had to say, is to some of the advice that you've been getting. Let me know what you think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dr. Phil on Emotional Abuse in Marriage

The Victim

You need to take responsibility and realize YOU set your relationship up this way, and YOU are the only one who can change it. Even if you're SAYING to your partner that you don't agree with what's happening, you're STILL THERE abiding by the same routine. Your actions speak louder than your words. You need to change this routine, otherwise you're accepting your partner's treatment. You need to make two bold moves. Change your routine AND tell your partner you are no longer taking the abuse.

Dr. Phil refers to an old saying, "There are no victims, only volunteers." You shouldn't go along to get along. Peace at any price is not the answer.

You need to renegotiate your marriage. Relationships are negotiations. You need to sit down with your partner, look him/her in the eyes, and tell him/her that YOU are taking a stand. You will not stay in the relationship if the abuse continues. From there, begin to negotiate. Figure out how both of you can take strides to make the marriage work. Don't fall back in the victim role. Don't use it like an old friend. Don't take the blame for EVERYTHING.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Victims "can't"....Non Victims "won't"

Change your name P_b....and stop being a victim.

I thank you all for your responses.

As far as me being a "victim" and not setting boundaries -- I have set boundaries. I've been very clear with him, I thought, on what I could and could not tolerate. I've been very clear about what I wanted and needed in order to heal. Many, many times I've thought we were back on track -- and then I find out that we weren't.

What do you do when they break your boundaries anyway -- as he did with his off-site birthday party -- and just ignore you and your inconvenient feelings and do what they want to do anyway?

I may not have moved out, but I have all but disappeared from his life. I cannot see where this bothers him *at all.* He just goes on and does whatever he wants to do, and if I can't be there because I am too upset, well, that's MY problem -- not his.

He is far, far better at this emotional detachment than I am. One reason that I don't want to do Plan B is because once I'm done, I'm done. I would never go back. I will hang on as long as I can, but once I've had enough, it's over and I will never look back.

What do you do when you cannot make yourself understood no matter how you try, and they tell you your feelings are "bullsh*t?"

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that he will do what he wants no matter how I feel about it and that I am powerless to influence this in any way. Yes, I know that nobody can control another; it's just that I had this crazy idea that a husband might not want to treat his wife this way. That's what I'm talking about. And yes, I'm still in shock at finding out how very wrong I was about this.

Life is good for me as long as I don't try to have anything to do with his work life. If I do try, I will only get a vicious fight that I simply cannot win. He is bigger than I am, he can shout louder, he can throw things harder, and he clearly has far less at stake than I do.

He can walk away at any time, and that's a very powerful position to be dealing from. He has made it plain that he does not need me -- his career gives him everything he needs. I am well aware now that I can be replaced at anytime -- because I have been, by office bimboes and strippers. I'm the one who wanted and needed him. My stakes are much higher.

I'm the one who has been fighting for the marriage. I do not know what on God's green earth he is fighting for. I've asked him, but he can't tell me. I can only assume it's the right to do whatever he sees fit without anybody daring to tell him he might be wrong and without ever having to feel guilty about any of it.

I would have thought he would be on my side and want to take out the trash that was destroying our marriage as much as I did. But I was wrong about that, too.

I can only tell you that I had to try. I am taking steps to protect myself. I had to try everything I could before giving up.

I honestly thought I could make myself understood to him -- but I couldn't. I thought he would care about our marriage as much as I did, but when push came to shove -- he didn't.

After all we have been through, soaking up a little more attention from his co-workers *still* proved to be far more important to him than my feelings -- which are, of course, "bullsh*t."

But I had to try. And I did try. What else could I do?

WS's are not much different than children. If you are going to set boundries, there have to be consequences. If there are no consequences, or the consequences turn out to mearly be threats...the boundries are useless.

What consequences have you given your WS for crossing those boundries BEFORE he crossed them...and did you follow through with them?

That's part of what Plan B is about. It says "you don't respect my boundries, therefore you don't respect me...I will not live like this".

People often talk about "training" their husbands...well, to a certain extent both spouses get trained in a marriage. Not always in good ways. If a spouse constantly nags and never seems satisified...we train the other spouse to quit listening to us. If we threaten consequences but never actually do anything we train our spouse to not take us seriously.

You seem to be looking for a third option that doesn't exist, PB. The one that says your hubby just figures it out without you having to do anything drastic. That would be a miracle.

For what it's worth, there is something that Harley has called Plan W (for withdrawal) and he recommends against it, but it is what I am doing. It is described in the book "The Solo Partner" which is out of print but I got it by contacting the library. (Usually, you can get a book through inter library loan if it isn't available through your library.)

What it describes is the pursuer-distancer relationship. Your standing up to him is showing him you are pursuing him, trying to get him to the POJA. He is just FINE with how things are, and he doesn't seem to mind that you aren't. This could go on for your whole marriage. You're the one suffering. He isn't. Oh, he might throw a bone your way every once in a while (not going to a birthday party) but the fact is that he really isn't interested in your happiness and that's that.

We went through 9 months of MC that sounds exactly like Harlely's plan. You know what one result was? I put the two pre-schoolers in child care two Thursdays in a row to go pick him up for lunch and he didn't have the courtesy to come out. What was he telling me?

Now I have backed off so much that he is sleeping in my son's room, he hasn't touched me in three months, he knows very little of what is going on, and he still has shown little interest in making changes. He's waiting for me to forgive him -- it's all up to me. If it's all up to me, then I think that what he really is looking for is tolerance, not forgiveness. Well, I tolerated physical abuse, but the A hurt far worse. FORGET IT!!! We're now in MC because I told him the situation is intolerable. When he called home when he was on a business trip and reached Natalie the babysitter, I think he realized just how little he knew of what I was doing. I still think that he is doing the minimum to appease me, but at least he is doing something.

I have concluded that the vow of marriage is one of mutual care. If the care isn't reciprocal, it isn't a marriage. The vow of marriage is not I will stick with you even if you beat me up and run around. The A really changed my view of what I would tolerate. I won't tolerate his seeking happiness at my expense. Period. Not just for Sophia. There's a lot more than that. Sophia was just the final straw. It hurt the worst, but I was telling him long before then that I felt like the maid and the nanny.

You are looking for an alternative to Plan B. This is a possibility. Face it. Plan A didn't work. Like you, I tried Plan A and wasn't able to do it. I got upset with his behavior. He has to decide what to do about his behavior. I accept that I cannot control his behavior. I accept that I cannot convince him of anything. All I can do is change my behavior -- not to influence his but to protect myself emotionally.

I look back with incredulity that I actually had sex with this man when my arm was in a cast. I remember thinking at the time that I could forgive this, even this, and now he knew how much it hurt that he didn't want to be rude to hang up on Sophia. Did I ever have it wrong! He used my being upset and his being embarassed about breaking my arm as justification to make the A even more sexual and intense -- since, after all, what woman would forgive a broken arm and I was a terrible wife anyway and he didn't care anymore.

Well, he didn't care in the first place, long before he met Sophia... going back to our wedding night when I nearly spent the night in the car. Once we were married, he figured he could do what he wanted and I had to put up with it. Wrong. I am the stay at home mother of four small children. They deserve better than they have gotten. I have turned into a wreck. NO MORE!!!

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Something my IC said really hit home for me: People take responsibility for things when it is a problem for them.

Your H's lifestyle is not a problem for him. It is a problem for you. He won't change unless it is a problem for him.

My H told me I was psychotic and needed counseling because I was so upset about his relationship with Sophia. So I went to counseling. The affair had already started. He once said, "You knew something was going on, and you didn't do anything about it." Oh yes I did... I tried to control his behavior by getting upset with him. I tried harassing Sophia. Guess what? The only thing I could do is protect myself emotionallly until/unless he decides to commit to caring for me as opposed to telling him that this is a test of my commitment to marriage.

You can change your scheen name and your number won't change. I started out as "uncommitted" as a screen name before I found out that he was in fact having an affair. Someone quipped that my name really should be "shouldbecommitted."

***He's waiting for me to forgive him -- it's all up to me. If it's all up to me, then I think that what he really is looking for is tolerance, not forgiveness.***

Boy, did you ever hit the nail on the head.

That's exactly what mine wants, too. Tolerance. He doesn't want or need forgiveness. Forgiveness is only for people who've done something wrong.

Your H and mine firmly believe that a marriage is supposed to take care of itself. They see no reason why they should have to "work" at it. If it's a good marriage, it shouldn't need protecting. And if we don't like this, that's OUR problem.

Marriage is not an equal partnership to people like this. They expect their spouse to give 100% to the marriage, but THEY don't have to do the same. THEY will decide what's enough, like maybe, say, 50% or maybe even 80% -- but it's not going to be 100% because they've got other things in life that are way more important to them than their spouse's feelings. They honestly believe this is okay and normal and won't hurt anything.

Other people have to give 100% to a marriage. THEY don't.

Thank you very much for your posts. I hope things get better for you. I don't have a broken arm -- just a broken heart.

As everyone always says, "No consequences = no motivation to change." You and I both thought that if our husbands had to see us in physical and emotional pain, and watch us withdraw from their lives, they would indeed think of those things as "consequences."

I think we can be forgiven for thinking that, and for still walking around in a state of shock when we learned that our husbands did not consider these things to be "consequences" at all.

<small>[ September 20, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Mulan ]</small>

Mulan --
The A hurt far, far worse than the broken arm. The ongoing treatment simply confirms that he doesn't care about me.

I have been in therapy for nearly two years with the same IC -- except for an 8 month break when I dumped her to follow Harley's advice to call the OP's spouse and that's how the A got exposed. The IC thought that calling the OP's spouse was not a good idea because I was trying to control my H instead of accepting the reality of his lack of care for me and deciding what to do about it.

What this IC has drilled into me is that I am not my H's conscience. I should not try to change him. That is ineffective. He would make token gestures at best. What I need to do is not get him on the "right" track but rather figure out what track he is on. Once I figure that out, I need to determine what I will do about it.

Don't hope to change your H. He needs to be motivated to do so. Leaving him most likely won't change him, just like getting upset won't. You need to make the decision for yourself and not to influence him.

Mulan,

I cannot tell how wonderful it makes me feel to have a new name to use when I address you.

Isn't strange how these kind of men feel that sense of "entitlement" that doesn't require them to have to give the same amount in a marriage. They recognize the relationship between hardwork and success in every other aspect of their lives....but they expect marriage to be effortless.

What made you pick "mulan"?

***They recognize the relationship between hardwork and success in every other aspect of their lives....but they expect marriage to be effortless.***

Another direct hit. Everything but the marriage -- or cleaning up the mess after lying and cheating in the marriage -- requires much hard work and complete dedication. Marriage and healing do not.

***What made you pick "mulan"?***

We took a family vacation to Disneyland back in June. Things were going well then, I thought - another piece of Plan A. At Disneyland, they have a lovely exhibit where you sit in front of a magic book, answer a few questions, and the book will tell you which Disney character you most resemble.

The book told me I was Mulan, "who is brave and fights for her family . . . "

My 15-yo son was deemed to be Hades, which he *loved,* and H was told he was Hopper -- the big arrogant bug from *A Bug's Life* who bosses around all the other bugs. He did not like this. Heh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We took a family vacation to Disneyland back in June. Things were going well then, I thought - another piece of Plan A. At Disneyland, they have a lovely exhibit where you sit in front of a magic book, answer a few questions, and the book will tell you which Disney character you most resemble.

The book told me I was Mulan, "who is brave and fights for her family . . . "

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you don't mind me saying so....but this mad me cry my eyes out....how apropos. Thank you for sharing it. I do think you are brave and are fighting for your family.

Your son sounds like a keeper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello Mulan,

Nice name. I didn't mind the old one, but this is nice. Sweet and strong.

So how are ya?

C

Not good. Saturday afternoon he unexpectedly went into the office for a couple of hours -- told me about it as he was walking out the door -- and Sunday he left for Chicago. Won't be back until Tuesday. I can only imagine the social activities planned for tonight (Monday.)

Crying off and on. Raging. I cannot make myself heard. I cannot make myself understood.

He informed me on Saturday that he wants me to see a psychologist specializing in PTSD. I told him I'd go when HE would see someone who could help him figure out why he wanted to lie to and cheat on his wife, and then tell her her feelings about those things are "Bullsh*t."

No answer.

I told him I would NOT keep the appointment unless he was willing to sit beside me for every second of it so that it was about BOTH of us, not just about "fixing" me so I won't annoy him anymore.

No answer.

Have not spoken to him at all since Saturday. My feelings are "bullsh*t." Why would I talk to anyone who holds that opinion of me?

I can only imagine why he went to the office on Saturday, and what he's doing in Chicago. But I cannot talk to him about it. My feelings and concerns are "bullsh*t."

Mulan,
For what it is worth, try reading the book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". I read it when it came out last year and thought that we were both renters -- both with the "I scratch your back, you scratch my back" mentality.

Last Thursday and today, I listened to Harley's radio show and it was like a lightbulb went on. I think my H -- and yours -- may be a freeloader.
A freeloader wants to go ahead and do what he pleases regardless of how it impacts the other person. Like you, I thought that my H would not have an A if he just understood how upsetting it would be. Well, he went ahead and had an A, using the excuse that I was crazy because of how upset I was, and after the A got exposed he told me that he didn't consider the impact of the A on me. I was "irrelevant." Well, I will give him credit for honesty.

The last words on today's radio show were about what happens after marriage for some, especially those who lived together before marriage (We didn't, but most abusive relationships are ones in which the people lived together before marriage, so I am always interested in what Harley says about couples who live together before marriage. With many of these couples, one of the two people wo were renters becomes a freeloader: "When they get married, they don't blend with each other. What they do is use the marriage as an excuse to do anything they please. Prior to marriage, they were together on the condition that they would do whatever it took to stay in the same relationship. When they are married, now they say you are committed to me. You have made a commitment and now I can go out with my friends at night and not invite you, I can say things to you that I would have not imagined saying before that are hurtful and harmful and I am secure in the fact that you promised to stay with me so I don't have to be the kind of person that anybody would want to live with me because you're stuck with me now."

Our wedding was at 10 AM. The reception ended about 3. I was a virgin when we married. Our first sexual intercourse was with no foreplay, with no tenderness, about 2 minutes in length, just before dinner. I only have a vague memory that I was in my clothes, but I can't remember if we were lying down or standing up. I nearly spent the night in the car because he treated me so badly.

I lived for 10 years on the memories of how wonderfully he treated me before we got married. When the affair was exposed, he told his mother, "It's all up to Kathy to forgive me." You know what he also says? I'm not committed. And what am I supposed to be committed to? To sticking with him no matter how badly he treats me? I look at myself with disgust. Is this how I want my children to allow their spouses to treat them?

You may say you are hanging on because when you are done, you are done. My IC gave me some truly wonderful advice. Don't try to get him on the right track. Figure out what track he is on, and then decide what you are going to do. From what you are saying, the track your H is on is to make you the problem because of your rage. He is off scot free as long as you continue to make a nuisance of yourself.

My H has said the A is over, he has decided he wants to go to MC, there are elements here that give hope. However, there doesn't seem to be a sense of urgency or the desire to put in a lot of effort -- despite the fact that he is sleeping in our son's room, we have been out in public exactly once since perhaps May, and I disappear into the room as soon as the kids go to bed. I'm sorry I have gone on and on about my own situation, but I think that we have similarities in our situations because what you write gives me insight about my situation.

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

PS It's almost comical to look back, but my H told me I was psychotic and got me to go to counseling because I was so upset about his relationship with Sophia. I needed to "leave it alone."

Did he think that I would be committed to him when he was willing to do what he pleased and what he pleased was to lavish affection and attention on the married mother of two children and not on me or his own children?

mulan,

Giving this a bump in the hope that cerri sees it.

Hi Mulan,

This is really my first time posting any "advice" so I'm pretty nervous that I shouldn't be yet! But here it goes&#8230;

My situation here at MB is very different from yours. However, if you had talked to me 3 years ago, I could have been you. That&#8217;s what I felt reading your post. Not that our H&#8217;s are the same, or saying the same things, but how YOU feel was how I felt.

I spent a long time trying to convince my H about what was needed in the R, talked about it, worried about it, got angrier and angrier. I didn&#8217;t know about MB at the time (what a regret I have) so eventually I LBed all over the place and decided to end my marriage.

While I was recovering from this decision, my anger finally evaporated&#8230;poof&#8230;which allowed me to finally confront why I was grieving (anger). Through this process I realized what was good in my H and my M, what I valued and why. I came back home to do a Plan A, what I like to think of as a real Plan A.

Please don&#8217;t by hurt by my ignorance in what I&#8217;m about to say&#8230;I know nothing of what you have or have not done. All I am offering is my intuitive understanding: I don&#8217;t think that you are there yet.

I believe Plan A should be about you. As long as you are expecting someone with this attitude to be convinced by anything you say (or cry in copious tears, or scream finally in my case), they will not be. You need to detach, work on yourself, and let him go. He doesn&#8217;t care? Okay&#8230;that&#8217;s a reality. He doesn&#8217;t want to talk&#8230;great, neither should you (with him I mean). It is not accomplishing anything. It just upsets you more which is not good for you.

I have implemented a Plan A that is bringing back a M from the edge, and whether or not we&#8217;ll recover in the end has absolutely nothing to do with it either. My H is now having an A which started within the past couple of months directly as a result of his emotionally detaching from me. (I believe you said your H isn&#8217;t having an A but then again, I&#8217;m relating to my situation of 3 years ago&#8230;)

And my point is that that is what he did&#8230;emotionally detach from me over a long period of time. I felt it, I lived it, I suffered through it, and I decided to end the marriage as a result of it. Only to discover (like many WS) that I wanted this relationship after all, or more to the point, that I was willing to take additional steps (MB) to ensure that I had done EVERYTHING in my power to make it work.

In the meantime, Plan A results: you get stronger. I am. You feel better. I do. Outside of my H, ALL my relationships are better. Everyone notices how much happier I am. Everyone says how well I am looking and feeling &#8211; funny, because I feel like I&#8217;m dying inside sometimes but the compliments sure help me feel better.

But even those depressed feelings get less frequent and certainly less intense. I cried for only 5 minutes when I determined that it really is a PA not an EA the other day. 5 minutes. Not a day and a half which is what it would have been 7 weeks ago. That is detachment at work and I am proud of myself.

I don't LB anymore because the anger is gone. Even when he looks into my eyes and lies (mostly he can't look into my eyes), no LBs. In fact, I often tell him to "have a good time" even though I know he's going out with OW. Does it hurt? Yup...but it makes me stronger because I am learning how to detach.

If the marriage doesn&#8217;t work out, I&#8217;ll tell you one thing. I will be able to move to Plan B as a strong person. I will be able to deal with the public fall-out of the M disintegration as a strong person. And I will be able to move to a new relationship &#8211; all new relationships &#8211; as a strong person who will have an in-depth understanding of what makes a relationship good and how to keep it that way! Learning that I will carry inside me for life.

Again, I don&#8217;t know if any of this is helpful or just irritating because I think you are seeking in a different direction for advice. But I truly believe that as long as your dominant emotion is anger, you are not helping yourself and yet you are the only one you can heal. In anger, you will likely not make the best decisions for yourself. And unfortunately, you may also later have very serious regrets about things that are no longer undoable.

Awed.

***You need to detach, work on yourself, and let him go. He doesn&#8217;t care? Okay&#8230;that&#8217;s a reality. He doesn&#8217;t want to talk&#8230;great, neither should you (with him I mean).***

I am doing this now to the very best of my ability. Getting better at it by the day. He was out of town for three days and I did not speak to him once -- did not call, page, e-mail, nothing. It was hell for me, but I did it.

Did this bother him? Not one bit. It kills me to know this, but there it is. You are right. What else can I do? Settle for a part-time marriage? Trying to do that has done nothing but make me a candidate for a straight-jacket.

I should have done this a long time ago. I have done "Plan A" many times in an effort to put things back on track, but this is what happens:

We go out, have fun, live like a normal family, go on vacation, everything is fine.

I start thinking that since he knows very well what I want -- which is not to be cut out of his life just because he's at work -- and we're getting along so well, I start thinking that he really does want me in *all* of his life and it's going to be different now.

I start building up hope.

Then something like his off-site birthday party happens, and I get kicked in the teeth AGAIN when I learn that he had no intention of inviting me, saw no reason why I should be there, and would not even *consider* skipping it just to make me feel better.

Then when I try to tell him how this made me feel, he is angry and annoyed and tells me my honest feelings about this are "bullsh*t." He is angry because he has to "pay" for weeks just because he wanted to do some more socializing with his co-workers without me.

As long as I stay out of the rest of his life, too, I will not get the wrong idea and think things are going to be different when it comes to his work activities. And then he won't have to go through the hell of having his wife want to be invited to his own birthday party. No man should have to endure that.

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Mulan ]</small>

Gosh it hurts reading your posts Mulan &#8211; I know exactly how you are feeling right now. Again, different situations but we seem to be experiencing a lot of similar feelings!

Let me share what my counselor told me yesterday in case it helps you too. She said I need to be very careful about interpreting actions. Although in a very concrete way, things have gotten steadily better over the past 7 weeks, she said as soon as I do something like: &#8220;he kissed me for the first time, must mean physical barriers are lowering, maybe A is not going well&#8221; then I am just joining him on HIS rollercoaster. He may well turn around and move in with her next! Who knows???

He is in what she calls a state of chaos (denial, MLC, fog&#8230;lots of different ways to describe same kinds of state). And chaos is just that -- the individual feels out of control themselves and does things that are nonsensical. Period. Cannot be interpreted even by a fully detached professional with loads of experience to draw from.

So all I can do is get off the rollercoaster by continuing to detach from him with love. Accept and enjoy the good times, and basically ignore the bad.

Now this may seem incredible counterintuitive to you &#8211; it sure FEELS like that to me!!! It feels like I am condoning the A, and all of his hurtful behaviour towards me. But I&#8217;m not. I am choosing to enjoy the good times with him, and &#8211; like I would do with any other friend &#8211; leave when I&#8217;m no longer enjoying myself. Not yell and scream that I&#8217;m no longer having fun, just say bye-bye.

Here&#8217;s my way to cope: if I do something nice for myself every time I&#8217;m hurt, that will heal me and nurture me and I will eventually feel better. His thoughtless, reckless actions/activities hurt me now but over time the hurt will lessen and I will have a more fulfilling life as a direct result of the actions I took to lessen the hurt.

I focus on making my life richer: I am making new friends, rediscovering old friends, reaching out to others (even though everything is &#8220;secret&#8221; from them right now) and doing fun stuff, watching comedies not anything romantic, doing a self-defence course so I feel better about being on my own, buying sexy lingerie &#8211; hey, he hasn&#8217;t seen it but I feel sexy and other men besides my husband are noticing. I&#8217;m not interested in them (my feelings are still fully monogamous at this point which surprises me somewhat) but my point is, the attention feels good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It&#8217;s all about increasing every opportunity for feeling good in order to balance the feeling of being absolutely gutted by someone so close to you.

So in my raw, totally inexpert opinion, you&#8217;ve done the rest of Plan A except the part about you. How about this: don&#8217;t think that you&#8217;re getting left out of his activities, but rather you are CHOOSING to respect his wishes (remember: you have no control over him and his choices anyway) and doing something else FAR MORE VALUABLE with your time instead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am doing this now to the very best of my ability. Getting better at it by the day. He was out of town for three days and I did not speak to him once -- did not call, page, e-mail, nothing. It was hell for me, but I did it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you!!!! But then you say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did this bother him? Not one bit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, that&#8217;s not the point. Pat yourself on the back, you did the right thing but don&#8217;t expect him to reward you, you reward yourself. For example, what did you do with the time he was away? Fill it with fun activity? Make yourself feel good about life without him in it? Eventually you will feel good you know IF YOU LET YOURSELF. (ie. Let go of the anger&#8230; <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Secondly, you don&#8217;t know what does or does not bother him. You cannot believe anything he says or does. For example, last night my H wanted me to leave a music show. Stated it several times (always framed in my best interests of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Going to spend night with OW I assume and wanted me out of the way. So I left&#8230;why argue? It&#8217;s clearly what he wants so I accepted it. This morning he says: &#8220;I said what? Why was I asking you to leave? That&#8217;s just dumb, you didn&#8217;t have to go.&#8221;

Can you say fog? Chaos? Confusion?

Just don&#8217;t fight the insanity Mulan. We owe ourselves better. And deep down this actually means a different person than our current H because the marriage will only work IF THEY CHANGE TOO one day. One way or the other, marriage to our old H is gone. And thank goodness for us! We weren&#8217;t happy anyhow were we? So let&#8217;s focus on ourselves, getting more of what we want from life, and maybe they&#8217;ll join us at some future point for a fun ride, not a sick-making rollercoaster out of control on a busy freeway during rush hour!

You find what makes you happy bud and go for it!!! This is NOT a bad thing for you but a new opportunity. Try and think about that for a while...it might just help.

Thanks for the opportunity to rant!

awed

***I am choosing to enjoy the good times with him, and &#8211; like I would do with any other friend &#8211; leave when I&#8217;m no longer enjoying myself. Not yell and scream that I&#8217;m no longer having fun, just say bye-bye.***

Sorry -- I am not physically capable of doing this. I am just not that cold-blooded. He is not a boy I'm dating in high school -- he is my husband whom I loved with all my heart, and he has ripped that heart out and walked on it with filthy shoes.

Trying to "just stay around for the good times" has done nothing but made me a ready candidate for the psych ward.

I appreciate your lengthy post and your advice, but I cannot do this. That's a "part-time marriage," which incidentally is *exactly* what he wants from me. He would love nothing better than to have me only come around when he feels like having me there -- as in, "when nobody else is available" -- and completely disappear when he goes to work and all the other women are there.

I tried to do this. All it did was enable his behavior of having a wife at home and girlfriends at work.

***Here&#8217;s my way to cope: if I do something nice for myself every time I&#8217;m hurt, that will heal me and nurture me and I will eventually feel better. His thoughtless, reckless actions/activities hurt me now but over time the hurt will lessen and I will have a more fulfilling life as a direct result of the actions I took to lessen the hurt.***

Okay, yes, I have been trying to do this. I am writing a novel (and getting paid for it.) I am critiquing the work of other writers (and getting paid for it.) I just finished training for a new job so I can have a steady income of my own. I have a beautiful horse to train, and I'm trying to spend as much time as I can with her because I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep her. I am close to my son and spend time with him on a regular basis.

But just "take the good times with him and walk away when he wants to cut me out?" Sorry. I know my own limitations pretty well by now. It would require some far, far heavier meds then I am willing to take -- not to mention huge quantities of cheap booze -- to live my life like this.

Mulan,
I couldn't choose to have the good times, either. When I asked someone why a person could have an A, that person said, "Because they can have their cake and eat it too." I was always available to him -- to talk when he wanted or leave him alone when he wanted, to have sex if he wanted or not if he wanted, and he wanted less and less and less. I was not his wife. I was not his partner.

My anger is gone. He made his choice. He dug himself a deep hole. He can earn back his trust or not, but I am not simply moving on so that I can forgive him for the next time. There is less and less anger or bitterness. I am simply accepting reality.