Shugah just posted this, echoing my thoughts as well:

"Given all that has happened over 8 months,
WH really has dug himself a big ugly hole, even if he wanted to climb out, how would he ever think that he could return? Facing family, friends and community after all of this has to be monumental!

I mean, reading Mimi's post about Steve's comment about WS's needing a plan to do it, how do WS's ever realize that it can be done, if in fact we cannot "educate" them.

Here at MB we all "know" how it works, how on earth does the WS realize that there is hope....
No wonder they just keeping digging deeper into that pit of despair, despondency, anger, I see it in my WH.

Thoughts?

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I wonder this, too. My H returns from European tour with OW today, so this sitch will be back in my face.

I believe the A to be seriously fraying. But H will hang on for life until OW walks out. Partly to prove he's right. And it may be farther from the end than I surmise. Meanwhile, I'm under a good deal of pressure.

I never went into an official Plan B. My Plan A was too brief (a couple weeks), and H is a conflict-avoider who would find NC a relief from his own turmoil. Bury the evidence.

Hence, I never sent a Plan B letter, outlining recovery plan. I was sure -- still am -- that H would find such a letter "extreme," which is a giant LB for him. (His behavior has been extreme -- another matter.)

So, back to Shugah's question, and mine...

AM

One of the many articles I read on recovering affairs touched on just that. It said most of the "panic" divorces (those done shortly after discovering an affair but before making any effort to save the marriage) were filed by the wayward spouse. And I am talking about when their affair is not the reason for the divorce by that an exit affair.

Seems the wayward spouse assumes they have done so much damage that there is no hope of ever being forgiven.

I see any WS who returns to face recovery with their tail between their legs as a HUGE testament to their integrity and ego strength. People who DO return and do the work are soooooo strong! Some people just are not strong enough to be humble.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thanks, but to some extent that's not the question: S. Harley told Mimi that they have to see a path back, a way to backtrack.

So how do we give them that? Ideally, a Plan B letter should do that. But even with that, there has to be a path made plainer...somehow...

In my case, I have grave doubts about whether H could ever be a husband to anyone. I have a lot of reservations about any contact at all, though I continue to be friendly in a neighborly sort of way when we have to have contact.

But given his pride, it's hard to see him ever approaching recovery, if he should want it...which is another question...

One of my favorite books is RECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES by Jim Talley. He says that in a troubled marriage, within 2 years, there will be a point at which both partners will be amenable to reconciliation, the trick is for that period to coincide for both at the same time.

So, in MB terms, Plan A or B keeps one partner at the point where reconciliation is possible for them, if the other partner would also reach the point where reconciliation is, as you would say AM "on the table".

The "terms" are separate, ie counseling, no contact, behavioral changes.

Forgiveness is another issue, so are the natural consequences of having dug the hole and behaved badly within the community.

It took at or around 2 years for my H to have his change of heart and want the marriage. I was no longer at the point of reconciliation, I was at divorce. He had to wait through my cycle of awayness, but during that time Plan Aed me and got himself together so that when I was willing to try, he was a good partner to try with.

I respect my H for his efforts in the community, at work, church, and with repairing his relationship with our teenage daughters. Like Pep says, that's strength--and nothing I could give him.

Am I close to answering your question? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, Lor, but not quite: the question is simply, suppose a WS is interested in reconciliation. There has been zero, or near-zero, communication with BS -- in this case, communication has been at best neighborly, at worst, formal and cool.

What makes them think there is a door open? How do they find there way back? What's THEIR move? The obvious answer: they approach the BS. But how? Suppose they are scared, insecure, proud? This is, as Mimi says, a big hurdle to overcome.

It would be inappropriate for me to make a gesture, I think.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

When my FWH moved out I floundered with Plan B. He had said he wanted to come back so I gave him a letter of my conditions for his return. 5, what I thought was, simple things.

N/C, Counseling, Medication (if necessary), Honesty and accountability, time and attention

At the time he balked at it and said I was trying to control him. I explained I wasn't, he didn't have to do these things, he could stay away, it was his choice. It took him about a half hour to agree. he didn't move back in until I was satisfied he had met these conditions. We talked about the particulars of some of these...like, more than just counseling a few times, time with us doing things we ALL liked, such like that.

This worked out well for us, but I'm not sure I could have given him the letter before he had wanted to come back.

Perhaps opening the door to a Waywards return would sound something like, "I know we haven't had much contact lately, and I know you are still out of the house, if you EVER entertain notions of coming back to the family please let me know, I have some things I expect to occur before you come back, I can let you know what those things are whenever you want."

Yes, this is more what I'm looking for: how does the PROCESS work?

It would be hard for me to say what you said, because I've received nothing that could be interpreted as encouragement, and I know he's too proud to offer any.

So that kind of keeps the door closed. He's a conflict avoider, with an allergy to admitting his own mistakes. And I keep things superficial, because under the surface my blood is boiling and I can't let it out.

So. Gridlock.

But how? Suppose they are scared, insecure, proud?

In some ways that brings us back to...if they are too scared, insecure, proud to simply ask if it is possible, would that be someone you want to reconcile with?

The WS has to have a little going on in the capability department to make reconciliation work. If they can't rise above fear, or insecurity or pride when they have been so in the wrong...you can wait to see if they get in together in some time parameter, but you can't give them capability. Especially if you don't want to initiate the possibility of reconciliation.

On the other hand, in this scenario, somebody has to initiate and be willing to risk rejection if reconciliation is at all possible.

Yes, Lor, I ask myself that question.

But is it right for me to extend a hand of reconciliation under the circumstances? This guy has now has lived with OW for 5 months. Or is it 6? Who's counting anymore?

I'm in no particular mood for divorce, and believe it or not I love him, and I'm loyal by nature -- on the other hand, I can make a strong case I'm better off without him. The kids don't want him back. A lot would have to change. He's still with OW, though I've been told they're bottoming out. Maybe true, maybe not.

But that's my own stuff. While I welcome comments on my own sitch (esp. from you, always, Lor!), I'm looking for stories about the beginning steps of the path back.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

It is entirely possible that I am too healthy for him -- it's significant that OW has health problems (mental and physical).

No, the path back would not be easy. Conditions I would likely require:

1) Intensive MC through MB. Though personal problems created the A addiction, as even he conceded, I can't imagine IC being fruitful, as he can dodge issues even in counseling. I'm willing to take this on together -- but he has to be there, too.

2) Some restitution for kids. They've suffered as much as I have. What is his plan for healing them? D thinks he's odious; S is hurt and ashamed of him.

3) Some sort of public acknowledgement. My humiliation has been very public within the community. I would wish some public acknowledgement before I take him back. It has also been a poor example to everyone; I don't wish to further the message that his behavior has been okay. I realize this is controversial -- but I don't wish to make a poor example by mooshing in.

4) End the pornography problem.

5) I am not even interested in H sexually, but I would certainly want STD testing if we were ever to resume a relationship. Who knows where OW has been.

HOT NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!

WEIRD! WEIRD! WEIRD! I JUST GOT A PHONE CALL FROM MY H!!! He said he was "checking in" after the trip! He never calls to "check in"!

He did mention "we" getting back -- which is odious and offensive, but he was never Mr. Sensitive, I really wouldn't expect otherwise.

I chatted (mostly on my side, I didn't want to hear news of his "us"). I was surprised how friendly I sounded. This is the first such phone call within months. But then, it's the first time he's been away.

He needed kids' college number -- but he could have emailed for that.

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I think the idea terrifies the bejeebers out of me.

I can maintain one-sided small talk for ten or fifteen minutes, but what on earth would I say for two hours? This is a man who can't talk about his feelings, insists he doesn't have any, except the sudden torrent of feeling for a strange OW. I certainly don't want to talk about his "us."

He would almost undoubtedly be tongue-tied. He needs to be in control. That leaves me with small talk chatter. If I start talking about my feelings, I'll unleash a torrent, which always threw him off-balance.

A.M.
Thanks for bringing my question to the forefront of a thread!
Good dialogue and suggestions here, it is helpful.
Only time for a quick "lurk by" right now, but will follow and post at a later time.

He called, you were friendly.

You can wait to see if he calls again.

Or

The coffee idea is ok, maybe lunch so you actually have something to do with your hands and mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Or

Is there anything you can ask him to pick up from the house or a chore that seems feasible that you'd ask him to help with? Didn't he early on offer to help you with things you needed? (I can't remember for sure)

Your description of him is rather bleak:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">disabled, old, a pornography addict, depressive, and now has lived with OW for 5 months </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm assuming he has some good qualities for which you love him?

Yes, Lor, he does have some good qualities...I just have had six months to wonder if they outweigh the rest of this. It was a lot to carry, and now it will be even heavier.

He did offer to do some household stuff. The kids vetoed it. They didn't want to see him.

I could suggest lunch or coffee, awkward as that would be -- but since OW and her D patrol me in public (maybe that will stop now that they are back, who knows?), I can't imagine them allowing me that kind of time with him.

He has to drop over sometime in the next few days to pick up his mail. The kids have his car. He will do it when he gets his car back, he says. Which I suppose is better than him coming over here with OW waiting in the driveway.

When he mentions OW or the new "us" -- he mentioned her SIL last night -- can I just say, "I'd rather you didn't talk about these people. I think they are evil." Or is that an LB?

It's entirely possible he wants to discuss a D. But indications don't seem to be moving towards M with OW. I could be wrong. But if he did want a path back, this is what he would be doing, so I have to brace for that.

Maybe he just thinks enough time has elapsed so he can talk casually with me again. Oh geez, I wish he'd stayed abroad (preferably, without a broad).

The thing is, Lor, my time with him is studiedly superficial. I don't mention anything that's occurred, R, or any issues.

Maybe I should change the name of this thread. I've hijacked my own thread.