***I'm not expecting her to rip her clothes off and say "come and get me you love hunk"... I was just waiting, with no discernable timeline, for a glimmer... and instead got.. "go find someone else."
Nice.***

Dude -- until you realize that right now this is about your wife, and NOT about you, you are not going to get anywhere.

Please start thinking about your wife's feelings instead of your own. If you want to have a marriage again, this is what you will have to do.

If you can't do this because you are too upset aand depressed over losing your girlfriend, well, my gods, man, what did you THINK your wife was going to say and do???

She is not your mommie who will comfort you through your break-ups. She is your wife.

NO woman is going to give you so much as a fraction of a glimmer if she thinks you're longing for someone else. NO woman on this planet is going to do that, and that includes your wife.

It sounds an awful lot like you want to make sure your wife will take you back before you risk cutting all ties with the OW, just so you'll have some woman somewhere to fall back on. If you want to see your wife's eyeballs turn inside out with anger and pain, just keep right on holding this position.

You will have to risk a lot to have your marriage back. You will have to risk being alone.

If you cut all ties with the girlfriend completely, so that there is no chance of ever going back to her, you have SOME chance of recovering your marriage.

But if you try to keep her kinda waiting in the wings in case it doesn't work out with your wife, you may as well run off with her now because you have ZERO chance of recovering your marriage as long as you are holding onto thoughts of your girlfriend.

This is what your wife meant by you getting someone else to help you get over your girlfriend. There's no point in leaving the OW in the first place, as long as your going to handle your "recovery" like this.

p_b,

Yes.

Especially, "she is not your mommie". It seems a common pattern for men to almost unconsciously expect W and OW to keep meeting needs, no matter what. (Concurrently, if possible.)

Yes also to "risk being alone": I fully agree that before a person can pair (or re-pair), they need to be capable of standing alone. Right now, for this man (a lot of men), this is a terrible risk, one he is not willing to take. And it is terribly unfair as well to the OW (who, though she is an adult and capable of choosing for herself, is also emotionally vulnerable in this whole sick process, and though I realize that the sympathy here is not for her, I must remark on this).

That OW still calls him is a bad sign. She does not get it, for whatever reason. She, too, lacks recognition of this man as a separate person who needs to be let alone right now, and perhaps forever, to work his stuff out. She may not have a view of herself as a separate person either (a situation almost too macabre to contemplate).

That same question rings and echoes:

Who are you???

TMD,

You know I don't feed the trolls. I wouldn't post to you if I didn't know you're worthy. This is the first time I am addressing to you directly.

However, I don't know whether to approach you softly or attack you with a 2x4.

You know what? I'll do both... You pick the one you like.

#1

You've come a long way, FAST!!!

I was reading your replies to others and was very proud of you. You took the bait and "proved me wrong". It was hard to believe that you've come such a long way in such a short time. You must be a genius or somethin... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, about going too fast...

You have changed for the best, but the change occured so swift, you were not ready for it. It finally caught up with you. The changes must settle in. It's like building a house without waiting for the mortar to harden. Sure, you built it fast, but will it bear the weght of the next floor?

I gathered from your posts, you had a clear understanding of the situation at all times even at the peak of your relationship with OW, thus such a tourmoil inside. I think, you didn't even have the "high of the affair" going for you full throttle. Most WS just give their bodies, minds and souls to the emotions and ride the wave. You are different. I am asking everyone in the crowd, "Is TMD different?" See, they agree.

You're doing very well, TMD. Just don't expect too much, too soon.

It would be nice if your W gave you an indication that she is willing to try, but she didn't YET, so be patient. You got so much already. You live at home, your son is happy. Doesn't that account for anything? Enjoy it. I won't suggest you do "hobby" and stuff. You're in arts, aren't you? Use this emotionally charged time to compose something. You may not have this opportunity ever again.

Step back, TMD. Stop analizing your W's words and actions. Do everything you can for her and your son. Don't talk with OW. You know better that this is not good to anybody.

#2

Never mind the harsh one... You've had enough for one day.

BigStar

P.S.

Why are you fighting Anti-Ds? Go for it. You may never have the opportunity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>p_b,

Yes.

Especially, "she is not your mommie". It seems a common pattern for men to almost unconsciously expect W and OW to keep meeting needs, no matter what. (Concurrently, if possible.)

Yes also to "risk being alone": I fully agree that before a person can pair (or re-pair), they need to be capable of standing alone. Right now, for this man (a lot of men), this is a terrible risk, one he is not willing to take. And it is terribly unfair as well to the OW (who, though she is an adult and capable of choosing for herself, is also emotionally vulnerable in this whole sick process, and though I realize that the sympathy here is not for her, I must remark on this).

That OW still calls him is a bad sign. She does not get it, for whatever reason. She, too, lacks recognition of this man as a separate person who needs to be let alone right now, and perhaps forever, to work his stuff out. She may not have a view of herself as a separate person either (a situation almost too macabre to contemplate).

That same question rings and echoes:

Who are you???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah... who am I? Well... I don't know exactly. You guys sure are making me FEEL like some kind of malignant puss hanging off the wall right now though. The third person thing is not helping either. Macabre..? That might be a bit over the top even for me...

Not angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> just an observation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

PB? Though I understand where you're coming from, Oddly... or maybe not so oddly... everything you just said in your above post has come out of my wifes mouth. All of it. I'm of a mind, however, that a marriage takes 2... esspecially in the worst scenarios.

Another thing that keeps, somehow, getting lost in the mire on this thread is that I have this small problem in that the emotional bucket is empty folks. So even though I KNOW I should be fixing this... the man that I am - whoever the F that is - has no earthly DESIRE to do it. So you guys may not LIKE hearing that.... and I may not like KNOWING that... But it's the simple and unfortunate truth... Not an easy concept to grapple in conjunction with the same or worse being thrown back... regardless of how much I deserve it.

Like I said in the original post... If I could get the damn faucet dripping that would be a good start.

So unfortunately - and as selfish as this is - I have zero control over the FACT that I don't feel anything for my W. I was open to the possibility though that my actions might warm her up to that miniscule glimmer... But I'm to understand that such hopes are unrealistic and futhermore - self-centered. Wow. That IS tough.

So, NO PB... It's not that I'm keeping the OW in the wings or her ME... Both of us rage at the futility of it all, if you would know the truth...

We're connected... FOGGY talk... OK macabre or otherwise... 15 years of no contact didn't work... so I daresay there something a bit deeper than even the cloying surface fog.

Don't get me wrong... I believe that the fog is real... I understand what it does and how it works. I even understand how it applies to everything I've said so far... I'd opt to agree with Terminator though in her suggestion that there is something deeper. I won't go so willingly into freudian tripe but I WILL say there is a connection from long ago... between us... that neither of us has figured out how to break.

This is a bit of rehash but you didn't follow the tedious flow of my original post so you don't have all the info.
_________________________________
REcap on OW and me -

High school first love for both of us
Dated after high school as well
Talked about marriage
I walked away
She married on rebound - pregnant
I married 2 years later
8 years pass and she calls me - I rebuffed
6 years later I emailed her that was 6 months ago now.

just informational... don't jump me for this stuff... I've been well 2x4'd for it on my original thread OK? Thanks much in advance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
___________________________________

Being Alone.

Terminator... One of the things that I struggle with in all of this IS my DESIRE to be alone and the repercussions of that action with a child involved. I have a great deal of guilt and fear over many things in this whole mess... But The fear of being alone is NOT on the list. Frankly... I'd prefer it to this present torture. I alluded to it when I said I'd rather be back at my friends house sleeping in his unfinished basement on an army cot. I got used to it and it became home to me for 4 months... It was a place of comfort.

For what it's worth...I believe the OW is looking for a way out. I believe she is unwilling to be the one to end it. I'm in the same place in that regard though i'm willing to honor her requests that I make no contact with her. Truth be told, I'm too weak to refuse her calls. She alludes to the possibilities of me fixing things with my W in a manner that comes across as a grudging hope. Then she says she loves me but that she has to maintain N/C in order to be able to try with her H. ... and so the story has gone for 6 months... Not Macabre.... Just plain sad on more levels than I knew existed.

I know this is hard for my W. Another understatement. I know I'm not making it easy for her...I know I'm a shmuck. It bugs the hell out of me. Maybe the drugs will help with that too. hmnn... hadn't thought of that till now.

Whatever - I'm tired... I'm getting fragmented with this... so.. I'll look for ya'll tomorrow.

Thanks again for your posts.

Good Night and God bless

-TMD

I'll probably get flamed for this, but i have to say that most of you seem to be of the thought that 'TMD got himself into this mess, (which is very true) and it's 100% up to him to do whatver it takes to make it up to his wife and prove to her that he can be trusted again. Ok, i agree with all of that, but i also think that in order to 'recover' the BS has to be at least a little interested in recovering the relationship....sounds to me like TMD's wife is so very angry with him that she is blocking any attempt to have any feelings for him whatsoever...that is all understandable, but i'm wondering how long TMD should 'take it on the chin' when his W gives him no encouragement whatsoever to give him the motivation to put his all into it. is it so hard to understand why he welcomed the contact with the OW? i mean, if his 'bucket' is empty and his W's words and actions don't replace a drop, where is TMD suppose to come up with the desire to even try??..

i know that the WS is the one who is 100% responsible for ruining the marriage...but i also think that in order to 'get it right' the WS has to have just a bit of incentive to try??...i was lucky that my H (even though he didn't know about the A) but sensed something amiss and changed a lot of the behaviors that i was running from while in the A....

my point is..it's hard to get over the OP when you still feel love for them, and they for you, and No Contact is the ONLY Way to break the foggyness and become 'yourself' again...but if nothing else, a bit of encouragement from the BS does wonders for the resolve to keep NC...i understand that TMD's wife is hurt beyond belief, but not giving him something to strive for is just keeping him in the fog..and liking it!...oh, and give the meds time to work TMD, they really do help...

One more thought to you TMD...you should put some thought into what is worse for your son...living in a 'separated' family, or living in a family where his father is treated with contempt and Disinterest...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BigStar:
<strong>TMD,

You know I don't feed the trolls. I wouldn't post to you if I didn't know you're worthy. This is the first time I am addressing to you directly.

</strong>
Thanks You for your interest. It's appreciated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
<strong>

However, I don't know whether to approach you softly or attack you with a 2x4.

</strong>
If you do it right, it's hard to tell the difference. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<strong>

You know what? I'll do both... You pick the one you like.

#1

You've come a long way, FAST!!!

I was reading your replies to others and was very proud of you. You took the bait and "proved me wrong". It was hard to believe that you've come such a long way in such a short time. You must be a genius or somethin... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</strong>
In case you didn't put it together. Those posts were me saying all the things I know are right.... Even while struggling to embrace them... It was therapy of a sort... and It was tough... Again an effort in actions leading to results. It was working until the kickback from the W... and 8TL was the proverbial straw. At least I had the sense to back out of the thread.

What was amazing to me was reading the threads of other WS's... very easy to see the fog. It's how i recognize it now for what it is. Doesn't make it any easier though. Just makes you feel like more of an idiot.

<strong>

Now, about going too fast...

You have changed for the best, but the change occured so swift, you were not ready for it. It finally caught up with you. The changes must settle in. It's like building a house without waiting for the mortar to harden. Sure, you built it fast, but will it bear the weght of the next floor?

I gathered from your posts, you had a clear understanding of the situation at all times even at the peak of your relationship with OW, thus such a tourmoil inside. I think, you didn't even have the "high of the affair" going for you full throttle. Most WS just give their bodies, minds and souls to the emotions and ride the wave. You are different. I am asking everyone in the crowd, "Is TMD different?" See, they agree.

</strong> Oh.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm different alright. *laughing* BigStar - I've been on this website for what is now half the life of this Affair. I couldn't have ridden the wave full throttle if I wanted to with all of the words I've read here bouncing around in my head at the same time. I guess I inadvertently dropped anchor here. <strong>

You're doing very well, TMD. Just don't expect too much, too soon.

</strong> K <strong>

It would be nice if your W gave you an indication that she is willing to try, but she didn't YET, so be patient. You got so much already. You live at home, your son is happy. Doesn't that account for anything? Enjoy it. I won't suggest you do "hobby" and stuff. You're in arts, aren't you? Use this emotionally charged time to compose something. You may not have this opportunity ever again.

</strong>
OK... this is a point of contention that is very VERY frustrating to me. I'm a singer/songwriter/performer type. And you are right about the emotionally charged time... I have been... prolific... there's no other word. And if you guys think the OW is like a drug, try on the building of a song for size. The inspiration is quite evident in the music and the lyrics. The story is well told. I HAVE written an album's worth of material in a few short months and have been in the studio with the band... and in my home studio recording vocal tracks. My wife see's my "singing about her.." as something else that has to go.

So the schmuck that I am... I say "I can't do that." whether she will ever understand this or not... music tells my story better than anything else. I have to tell it now while the inspirational fires still burn. I think you understand that or you wouldn't have made the recommendation that sparked this reply. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh! and what's worse? I wrote a poem a few months back... I don't write poems per se... but I wrote one and submitted it online primarily to be able to share it with the OW in a benign setting i.e. not on my website.... yeah... I know... gag me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ... I recieve notice in the mail that I'll be published fall 2003 under my name and copyright with THAT poem. unF*G believeable. How do you share THAT news with your estranged spouse. NOT! *shaking my head*

Life is so strange. And if these songs land me a deal? Talk about bitter-sweet.

Sorry... 'bout all that... it is a level of complication that weighs heavily in all of this over the years. I've not brought it up here at MB. relationship are like an onion right? lots of layers...

<strong>

Step back, TMD. Stop analizing your W's words and actions. Do everything you can for her and your son. Don't talk with OW. You know better that this is not good to anybody.

</strong> Yes I do. And the analysis is ingrained.... I'll see what I can do though. <strong>

#2

Never mind the harsh one... You've had enough for one day.

</strong> see? You did well. I didn't even notice the 2x4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<strong>

BigStar

P.S.

Why are you fighting Anti-Ds? Go for it. You may never have the opportunity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamcatcher:
<strong>I'll probably get flamed for this, but ...
is it so hard to understand why he welcomed the contact with the OW? i mean, if his 'bucket' is empty and his W's words and actions don't replace a drop, where is TMD suppose to come up with the desire to even try??..

</strong> well there's a county not frequently heard from. <strong>

...i understand that TMD's wife is hurt beyond belief, but not giving him something to strive for is just keeping him in the fog..and liking it!...

</strong> For the record. The fog is not a place I like to be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Not one bit. I feel like a fool. I just feel like a less-stressed fool when I hear the OW's voice in my ear right now.
<strong>

oh, and give the meds time to work TMD, they really do help...
</strong> I'm on day 3 <strong>

One more thought to you TMD...you should put some thought into what is worse for your son...living in a 'separated' family, or living in a family where his father is treated with contempt and Disinterest...
</strong>
Oh boy... THAT thought has not been lost on me. ARK has some pretty strong thoughts on that... I'm supposed to work to change that contempt and disinterest into love and passion.

see? it's so easy for me to come up with those answers now. Even while I write it... nada.

ugh.

Thank you for your thoughts.

<strong>

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD

TMD--
I truly feel your struggle here. BUT...do you have a set of values that doesn't change with your FEELINGS? Feelings come and go. They can't be trusted all the time. To have direction in your life I humbly submit that you set out what kind of man you want to be in this life. A faithful, caring husband who gives and doesn't count the cost until wounds are healed or someone who won't give up his OW completely, keeps hurting his wife and expects her to take care of him and not herself?

I think I am repeating myself. I find it truly sad that you and your W and even your OW are in this situation.

Each of us must travel his/her own journey to understanding ourselves and others in this life. I can not make you see any truths here, but one thing is for sure--you are making this much, much more painful and horrible than it has to be. Yes, there is pain right now, but have you never suffered for a cause? There is no greater cause at the moment than the healing of your soul, your wife's and your relationship. Even if you don't end up together, there is much that you must realize and work through before a parting would truly mean anything. You would continue to remain connected without working these things through. The A was about something missing in you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>...

TMD!!!!! 2x4 moment that's your cue to address those REAL fears and concerns...that's her plea for you to fight for HER!!!!!!!!

Any woman can see through that statement...your next line is...

I'M HERE BECAUSE I WANT TO WORK THIS OUT WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOT WITH ANY OTHER PERSON!!!!!!
YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and you blow you line with the typical
HUH???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARK -

I talked to my counselor last night and something came to the fore as I discussed your comment above with her.

How do I say

"I'M HERE BECAUSE I WANT TO WORK THIS OUT WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOT WITH ANY OTHER PERSON!!!!!!
YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

when I don't feel it? In retrospect, it's no wonder that I didn't think to say that to my W. I made a mental leap during that counseling session though in realizing that saying that to the OW would have been, and HAS been, intuitive.

ARK - I've got the mental equipment baby... my focus is just horribly askew - say by about 180 degrees.

Just wanted to clarify on that point.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Anne6263:
<strong>TMD--
I truly feel your struggle here. BUT...do you have a set of values that doesn't change with your FEELINGS? Feelings come and go. They can't be trusted all the time. To have direction in your life I humbly submit that you set out what kind of man you want to be in this life. A faithful, caring husband who gives and doesn't count the cost until wounds are healed or someone who won't give up his OW completely, keeps hurting his wife and expects her to take care of him and not herself?

I think I am repeating myself. I find it truly sad that you and your W and even your OW are in this situation.

Each of us must travel his/her own journey to understanding ourselves and others in this life. I can not make you see any truths here, but one thing is for sure--you are making this much, much more painful and horrible than it has to be. Yes, there is pain right now, but have you never suffered for a cause? There is no greater cause at the moment than the healing of your soul, your wife's and your relationship. Even if you don't end up together, there is much that you must realize and work through before a parting would truly mean anything. You would continue to remain connected without working these things through. The A was about something missing in you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anne,

Your words strike a deep chord. I hear you and I can't argue any of it.

My counselor told me once about 'The Journey Of A Thousand Miles' I'd not heard the saying... But it struck me as the most logical approach to all of this. One step at a time.

I hear your sorrow for my apparent inability to address the core issues with actions. I'm screwed up... going to a counselor for the first time in my life was a huge step for me. I'm taking one step at a time.

If I do what my wife requires of me in one fell swoop, I'd likley go looking for a very tall building.

-TMD

TMD,

Didn't mean to be harsh.

I will try to address the emotional emptiness. If you need some kind of a feeling to do what you need to do then you should divorce. Now. There's a phrase in AA, 'fake it til you make it'...

It's probably too soon to really let go of the OW. But you have to. This relationship, where you're both married to other people, is only destructive. I know about the feelings and the connection. Believe me, I do. (There's nothing worse than a reformed OP.) But staying in it serves nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except to feed and sustain the feelings and connection.

I wish I could say more about your current situation with your wife. I will say this--don't expect and rely on and judge the progress of recovery by your feelings. Feelings are not a reliable indicator of what should be. Feelings got you involved with another woman, after all.

Perhaps this is where you learn what marriage is really about, what you believe, and whether or not you can 'do' marriage. But you have to go back to the beginning--to yourself.

As to the deep connection, the feeling of having met before--yes, I've been there, done that. As powerful as it is, though, it means nothing when trying to figure out what to do with your life. It is worthwhile to study what the source of it might be--valuable information about yourself which, once revealed, will not have a compulsive pull.

It's the hidden things that have so much power.

This is just really really hard TMD...

The thing is you continue to actively with-hold and reserve all you passion and emotion for the OW....it's not just natural as you want to claim......it's a choice you make...

Part of it is because it is known and comfortable for you...you withdrew from your wife...and she from you a long time ago...hence again clinging to the known versus the unknown...

It's not some great cosmic connection that just exists...between you and the OW...
it is a great cosmic connection because you both expend a great amount of energy and emotion feeding the relationship...

a seven hour phone conversation in which you explore all the great mysteries of life...and for your wife...nothing....nadda...zip....

You are like a shadow in her life offering empty actions without the emotion and she can see it, feel it, and sense it...and yet you are suprised when she doesn't respond with gratituity for your offerings...

yet you offer nothing...

you are not scum and puss and all those other icky things that you can wallow in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Don't worry when you reach puss-status I will tell you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMD if I really believed that being with the OW was better for all involved...
if I beleived it in a way that says you are both scum and both deserve eachother
OR
if I believed that you should be together...because it is really best for all parties involved...I would tell you to leave MB and go be with her...
problem with that is that I don't think YOU even believe it's possible...not just on logistics...but also on the reality of the relationship and that you have really crossed that bridge and know deep down it wouldn't work ....
that the damage left in the wake...her husband...your wife...would drag you both under...
Anna Karina by Tolstoy discovered that....see if you can't rent the PBS version...also search for a recent post by Melody Lane and Tolstoy...

I think breaking the no contact drags you back and under....

I agree that you do not deserve total disdain and groveling...I don't think your wife is correct in her actions..and no good will come from it..

I think you should move out...
I think you should look into local Monestaries and convents that offer retreats at really low prices...and when the leaves are changing you should go away by yourself for a while...

I think you should committ to dating your wife..
I think you should committ to being happy to see her..
to search for care and tenderness about her...

neither of you can even appreciate one another for being basic human souls....

I also think that you have nothing to lose in standing up to her...

Also are you saying that she asks question about the affair or the contact...
I hope you answer her questions...
I also hope you know that you have the right to ask her for a safe environment in which to disclose to her..
tell her that you want to tell her..
tell her that you realize what you say will/might hurt...and you are sorry for hurting her...
but that to help you and her heal she also needs to realize that she needs to make it safe enough for you to tell...

ARK

Terminator -

Well said.

OK.. the pervasive theme is that something is missing... deep inside....

This is where Pep would come in I think.... If it's there... somewhere, I'll need help to figure it out. I'll vigorously push away the fog while we're at it folks...

I have no deep-seeded childhood memories or traumas that I can put a finger on.

I had a really bad religious experience the summer leading into my senior year in high-school. That still has me screwed up religiously... There is a very brief span of time between that and meeting the OW for the first time as teenagers.

I'm not sure what else to look for... unless it's more subtle.

one thought that comes to me is that I let my dreams fall by the wayside to pursue a "comfortable life" for my family. Though network engineering is lucrative, it's not as fullfilling as music. I'll admit to resentment there... the kind that comes with not knowing because you never really REALLY tried.

there... that was my stab at it.

-TMD

I think you should look into local Monestaries and convents that offer retreats at really low prices...and when the leaves are changing you should go away by yourself for a while...

I wanted to clarify that...I don't think you should go away...
I meant for a long weekend retreat type of thing...monestaries and convents offer lots of these...there are some really nice ones in Kentucky...

just a weekend retreat type of reflection thing...

and tmd..
no contact...none...but don't let the no contact consume you..
ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>This is just really really hard TMD...

The thing is you continue to actively with-hold and reserve all you passion and emotion for the OW....it's not just natural as you want to claim......it's a choice you make...

</strong> Yes. Yes it is. It is a choice I make over and over. That is truth in raw form.<strong>

Part of it is because it is known and comfortable for you...you withdrew from your wife...and she from you a long time ago...hence again clinging to the known versus the unknown...

It's not some great cosmic connection that just exists...between you and the OW...
it is a great cosmic connection because you both expend a great amount of energy and emotion feeding the relationship...

</strong> Really? It's nothing more than remembering how she made me feel all those years ago - and wanting that? That's what you're telling me here right?<strong>

a seven hour phone conversation in which you explore all the great mysteries of life...and for your wife...nothing....nadda...zip....

</strong>good point<strong>

You are like a shadow in her life offering empty actions without the emotion and she can see it, feel it, and sense it...and yet you are suprised when she doesn't respond with gratituity for your offerings...

</strong> again... it was the dense thing that threw me there ok? <strong>

yet you offer nothing...

</strong> I offer what I have. It just lacks in emotion. I get what you mean though. <strong>

you are not scum and puss and all those other icky things that you can wallow in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Don't worry when you reach puss-status I will tell you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</strong> knew I could count on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <strong>

TMD if I really believed that being with the OW was better for all involved...
if I beleived it in a way that says you are both scum and both deserve eachother
OR
if I believed that you should be together...because it is really best for all parties involved...I would tell you to leave MB and go be with her...
problem with that is that I don't think YOU even believe it's possible...not just on logistics...but also on the reality of the relationship and that you have really crossed that bridge and know deep down it wouldn't work ....
that the damage left in the wake...her husband...your wife...would drag you both under...
Anna Karina by Tolstoy discovered that....see if you can't rent the PBS version...also search for a recent post by Melody Lane and Tolstoy...

I think breaking the no contact drags you back and under....

</strong> yup... gasping for air all the while. <strong>

I agree that you do not deserve total disdain and groveling...I don't think your wife is correct in her actions..and no good will come from it..

I think you should move out...
I think you should look into local Monestaries and convents that offer retreats at really low prices...and when the leaves are changing you should go away by yourself for a while...

</strong> really? wow ARK. really? You have no idea how attractive that idea is to me. But what of my W's request that I put my son first. How do I move out and accomplish what is my wife's prerequisite? Hmnn. <strong>

I think you should committ to dating your wife..
I think you should committ to being happy to see her..
to search for care and tenderness about her...

neither of you can even appreciate one another for being basic human souls....

</strong> The truth in that makes me want to throw up.<strong>

I also think that you have nothing to lose in standing up to her...

</strong> Boy... I can feel the flame threads already as I interate those interactions with the board.<strong>

Also are you saying that she asks question about the affair or the contact...
I hope you answer her questions...

</strong> I tell her I'm not comfortable doing that. She says "why not" in disbelief. <strong>

I also hope you know that you have the right to ask her for a safe environment in which to disclose to her..

</strong> well... there's the caveat that she has to agree that I have that right. Her position now is that I have no rights. Argueing that is futile. <strong>

tell her that you want to tell her..
tell her that you realize what you say will/might hurt...and you are sorry for hurting her...
but that to help you and her heal she also needs to realize that she needs to make it safe enough for you to tell...

</strong> OK. I'll give it a try. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <strong>

ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank You ARK.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>I think you should look into local Monestaries and convents that offer retreats at really low prices...and when the leaves are changing you should go away by yourself for a while...

I wanted to clarify that...I don't think you should go away...
I meant for a long weekend retreat type of thing...monestaries and convents offer lots of these...there are some really nice ones in Kentucky...

</strong> OK understood. What part of KY. anything close to OH? I'll look into that. Never done something like that. <strong>

just a weekend retreat type of reflection thing...

and tmd..
no contact...none...but don't let the no contact consume you..

</strong> any magic trick up your sleeve on how to avoid that? <strong>

-TMD

ark</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

TMD,

To clarify--it might not be a childhood wound necessarily. But it is to do with 'who you were' as a child--your inner child, in the lexicon of therapy. There is something about your 'self' that responds in a unique and powerful way to her.

It is a subconscious part of your self that you are not aware of (other than in terms of her).

Again, I do not believe this necessarily means that you were 'meant to' be with her. But it will do you good to know the meaning of it, for yourself.

It may mean you stay with your wife and try to bring a new self to that, or it may mean that you stay in your marriage where it is acknowledged that you are staying together to parent (I know that's not popular here, but it happens), or it may mean that you leave your wife.

Don't know. It just depends on what you really believe. As long as you act on that and only that you will be okay. It takes a while to get to know what that is, though. Be patient.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>TMD,

To clarify--</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ambiguous Clarity.. Just what the doctor ordered... more unknowns.

I get what your saying. To put it with as much eloquence as I can muster... That Sucks! But my mantra now... "one step at a time"

So OK.

OK.

-TMD

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>

TMD,

Yes, it is all ambiguous, risky, and scary. And it sucks.

As you work through the process of 'tearing away' emotionally you will see parts of yourself that you weren't aware of before. There is no way to explain this or describe it...you have to experience it.

And, I also don't want you to think that the path to salvation is to write the whole relationship with OW off as some kind of pathology--something that was just a means to an end and unworthwhile, or juvenile, insignificant, or whatever. You absolutely have to allow it its importance to you, but put it and her in the past tense, where they belong...

The hardest thing to accept is that there is no place for her in the present, in your life. In the relationship, you each had to live in a compartment of each others' lives. (I crawled out, broken and bleeding, and never looked back--the circumstances became odious.)

I would not have written this if I didn't know how much it sucks. I'm hoping for the best for you. Keep trying, be patient, and don't expect too much of anyone. Enjoy everyone in your life for who they are, including yourself.

TMD -

I have not posted to you before, but have been following your progress here on the board. I have enjoyed your threads because you appear to be very analytical like I am - in fact, quite a bit moreso than I. (My H always accused me of thinking too much - it's nice to see someone else who thinks a lot).

Anyway, I also am the FWS. I confessed to my H 2.5 months ago. My situation is different from yours, so I am not going to sit and belabor the comparison. But I can relate to you on two things.

First your W making a comment to how it's all she can do just to be cordial to you. I know that one - only more. For the past 2.5 months, it was all my H could do to come home at nights - or even just to be in the same room with me. I thought at first - I have needs to be met. I am willing to try, why wasn't he?

But then I realized - he was trying. As much as he could. It really was all he could do to stay. It sucks, but try to give it some time. I needed my needs met also (it had been a long time since he had met them), but for the moment, he really was doing all he could.

The second point is how you feel she is acting toward you the same way that she did before you had the A. I, too felt the same. After I confessed, my H threw all kinds of comments, retorts, anger, and dissatisfaction toward me. Much of which I felt for a while even before the A. I just thought "now I just gave him a good reason." So I vented here. And people encouraged me to stay (because it really was hard to stay). And I have. Is it better? This week, yes. I see him actually trying more than staying. He made dinner reservations for us tomorrow - something to show that he wants to try to have a good time with me. Big difference from the past 2.5 month roller coaster.

Don't give up. From what I've read, she has known about how you feel for the OM. Maybe she wants to know how willing you are to stay. Maybe that is her way of finding out - how committed you are to really wanting this to work. Not just putting on a show. Just an idea.

Anyway, I, too, am emotionally exhausted. If what I said makes no sense, or does not apply, please discard. My mental capacity is pretty much shot right now. But if you can find any help in it, please take it to heart. Sometimes we only get what we can get - it's up to us to take it or give up. And I for one don't want to give up yet.

Good luck- hope you feel better.