You know?... *speaking of analytical thought processes... Something I've realized about myself here on MB and in the midst of this A...

And this is for Terminator too if she's out there...

Is that contrary to my own beliefs about myself over the years, I am addict material... not to alcohol... I don't like it much -- 2 beers and I'm toast... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> *cheap date* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , or drugs... hence my aversion to the A-Ds. But to the emotion.... well there is the crux of it I think. I miss the heat... the passion... the emotion... the longing... the long goodbyes and the thrilling hellos. I miss the musical inspiration that flows from that whirlwind.

The difference today... is that I'm older for one... so my body can't take the strain as it once did. for another, I'm wiser... so I see and fully fathom the damage my actions inflict.

I saw a really bad movie the other day but it had a good line in it... "Wisdom is understanding those around you; Enlightenment is understanding yourself."

Do you understand yourself TX? I don't. I know there are a lot of things I don't like about myself very much... even before the affair. The knowing hasn't improved things for me in those areas either.

but I digress -

The other thing I'm addicted to is MB. I believe it is an extension of the emotional release that I seem to relish. At the same time MB acts as my rationale. I avidly pursue truth in the guise of MB's trolling -TMD so I feel like I'm not losing myself to the emotions... what better way to achieve equilibrium than to analize your own emotions... MB is probably the reason why I could never really "ride the wave" as BigStar put it.

The funny thing is that I came in with arrogance believing I could turn any arguement... Part of me wanted to be out-witted though. Now I'm just starved for the next word that will get me through this. The transition is... well.... as confusing as the rest. MB has helped me in many ways... but has confused me about myself in many more.

My time here has been a roller-coaster ride of fighting then accepting then of resignation then to backsliding and on and on we go. I've written the words that are the right words for healing and I believed them in part... OK I believed them in whole...

It's a mirror that is held up to my life with God... I can talk the talk but am afraid to walk the walk. So If someone were to ask me the path to salvation... I'd dust off my Bible and willingly walk them down the path of the Romans Road. But I won't live the life.... so I respect God enough to not take communion with an impure heart and I don't fellowship with christians because, frankly, it creaps me out because of the hypocrisy that is rampant in the church.

So the hypocrisy of my heart to my mind is staggering to me. The hypocrisy of my mind to my heart is shattering. The choice between right and wrong has never been so clear and so clouded to me all at once.

Seeing the emotional and often immature wailings of some of the other WSs here on MB has generated no small amount of chagrin on my part. I see in those moments the value of my presence here for others. Live and in person demonstration of the broken mind of the WS. And measuring my own reaction to those other pathetic souls, I see the therapeutic neccessity of the WS in this microcosm of the world of infidelity and the path to healing that this forum encapsulates. In retrospect, the psychological foreplay here is quite subtle and the release emotionally unique for each of us.

The truth is - I'm not certain I've made any progress here. I've known all along the right and the wrong of it from a strictly fundamentalist code of morality perspective. My fight is within -- which explains my physical failings -- and it is a fight for which I was sorely unprepared. I've played the devil's advocate probably because I'm closer to the darkenss than the light... Not to suggest I'm evil... but I'm no saint... and the devil was soundly 2x4ed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I would have been dissappointed in any other outcome.

I don't know where I'm going from here in this mess...

I just listened to 2 voice-mails from the OW... How does a bird fly whilst in the throes of drowning? What incredible feelings.

...No one can really get me through this but me. And I'm taking one step at a time.

- TrulyMadlyDeeply

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>TMD,

The first step is to go through the painful, but absolutely necessary, complete and total separation from OW. It sucks. It's hard. But you can do it, and you have to. If I could do it, anyone can.

Good luck.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen. Ditto! I'm familiar with that pain, too. The difference is, my H was kind and forgiving to me, and that made a world of difference.

As one of the other posters said, I have to ask if your wife really wants the marriage?

Hang in there, guy...and keep coming back to this board. You may not buy all of it now, but it will begin making more and more sense.

-TMD

I haven't posted to you before but I have been reading.

You said you don't feel comfortable talking to your wife about the affair - and I suspect that is part of the reason she isn't responding the way you'd like her to, to the crumbs you have thrown her way.

You've done an incredible job of expressing the overwhelming emotions that you are coping with right now. I think your eloquently expressed pain is clearly a argument for fidelity to anyone who is considering infidelity as a path to happiness.

BUT. Multiply the depth and power of your emotions by 10.

THAT is what your wife is dealing with.

Would you, in her shoes, make yourself vulnerable to more devastation and betrayal, considering your unwillingness to truely make the choice to put the enourmous effort into her that you are still choosing to put into the OW instead?

Nothing changes...if nothing changes. From your wife's standpoint, you haven't changed. Your emotional effort is still directed BY CHOICE at the OW.

Everything that I have read your write about your wife's responses just scream that what she NEEDS in order to respond to you, is for you to fight for HER. She has no desire to be second choice - especially to the woman who assisted you in such a devastating betrayal. No woman does.

Personally, I suspect that the fact that she is still living under the same roof with you is proof that she is trying - and that is ALL she can give you.

She's given you the roadmap back to her heart - does she have to hit you with it between the eyes?

When my husband betrayed me, I wasn't just angry that he betrayed me....I felt that he had betrayed our FAMILY, and that meant he had betrayed our children. How? He put their lives at risk - by devastating them emotionally, risking their financial stability, and breaking up their home. The result of his affair meant that there was not enough money to pay the bils, much less do anything nice for them. But somehow there was money for him to take the OW to Cape Cod...while his children had no vacation. His OW planned to make sure that he paid almost nothing in CS compared to what he was making....there went my children's future, and there went their mother off to work, making sure that my children lost the presence of not one parent, but TWO.

Do you get it? Knowing that you will never ever put your son at risk by betraying his mother is a VERY BIG DEAL. When your wife says "Put our son first", I suspect it means more than "Spend quality time with our son."

It means taking steps to make sure that the integrity and security of your son's home life is NEVER put at risk again, by your selfishness.

As long as your wife sees that you are emotionally loyal to your OW, her son's security is at risk.

I think she is busy protecting herself, and trying to ensure her son's safety.

The ball is in your court.

PS. I know that you don't want to take antidepressants, but I'd strongly encourage you to do so. Once you are in an emotional tailspin downwards, its very hard to reverse it without help. I know this from very hard experience.

-TMD, one more thing.

If MB hadn't been helpful to me for any other reason (and it actually has for MANY reasons), it has been because of its quality as as interactive journal.

My H did not want us to go to counseling, so I found myself pouring my feelings out in this venue. It was extraordinarily therapeutic. The fact that it was not one-sided...that people could and did respond to it...was an added bonus.

So, I encourage you to continue to pour out your thoughts here.

BTW, you and I obviously come from the same background. (How many other people do you think know what the Romans Road is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Keep reaching out for the Lord, even through this. I can remember when I would lay in bed and the only prayer I could articulate was a sobbing: "HELP!!!"

I think He heard.

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Sincere1 ]</small>

TMD,

You are on the path to enlightenment. You 'get it' that the point of this right now, the first priority, is to know and understand (and love) yourself.

About the Christianity, hypocrisy, etc.--the emr and ending of was the impetus for my faith journey. I had nobody else to lean on but God. I too see hypocrisy in the church, in my congregation. And judgemental people. But: if you are going there to enrich YOUR relationship with God, you can brush all that aside. There are lessons in even that.

You are not being hypocritical by going to church, if you recognize that you (we all) need to be forgiven and you go there to bolster that belief and study its meaning and grow according to God's plan for you. And if your church stifles that experience for you then maybe you need to think about going to a different one...I am in that spot myself.

Those are my thoughts. Your thoughts are...amazing!! I enjoyed reading your last post--there's a lot there that is very very hopeful. So many questions, so much opportunity for growth.

Just stay put a while. Be patient. Take care, be kind to yourself and others. This is going to sound vague, but I would bet money that unexpected good things are coming up...Pray for understanding, not for circumstances.

TMD,

I have to say something about 'taking communion with an impure heart'.

Your heart is always going to be impure. God knows this. It is why Jesus died and was resurrected.

None of us is whole without God. We are invited to lift up brokenness to Him and thus be made whole. None of us is pure, either. We are all members of the same fallen humanity.

Take communion with a humble and grateful heart. Anyone can do that.

And why is your Bible dusty?? There is a lot in Romans, Psalms & other places that would help you right now.

I sense that we come from different faith traditions, but I had to give it a shot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TMD -

Nope. I don't know myself. And truthfully, maybe I just really don't have much business posting on this thread, because I am way too new to this, and struggling so much to discover who I am again that I probably am not of much use right now.

But I can tell you this is my experience. I have identified one of my weaknesses is expecting others (mainly my H - but sometimes work, family, etc) to provide me with what I need for happiness. When really what I need to be doing is looking within myself for that.

Why do you think you are addicted to emotion? Why are you not able to fill that need for yourself? I wish I could give you the answer, because I expected my H, and others to fill that need for me. Now I realize I have to be willing to provide for myself.

If my H leaves me, who can I rely on? I'm not going to screw up OM's life any more. And besides, it wasn't him I really wanted. It was happiness. I thought he was it - my H hadn't been. In fact, our M was pretty nasty at the time of my A. But happiness is within myself. Peace is within myself.

Do I know how to look for it? Do I know what I will need to do to find it? Will I ever truly attain it myself? I really don't know.

So your quote about enlightenment is true. I am trying to go along the path of enlightenment - trying to know myself and put my heart and head on the same page.

You seem actually to be doing well. I often wonder if any of this is helping me. But then I look back and see where I was and where I am now. And there is a difference. But, my you are right - it is one day at a time.

On a lighter note:

I recieved this in my email and it's the first time I laughed in a long time. enjoy!
__________________

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in

waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht

the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,

but the wrod as a wlohe.

amzanig huh?

_________________-

Have a great weekend all.

-TMD

Dear TMD -

I admire your courage in continuing the painful process of self-understanding on which you have embarked here at MB.

I don't know if what I say can help you, but I can relate to the music part, perhaps from the other side. I am a musician, and my H is an extremely talented (Classical) musician. His particular gift, which is very rare these days in the Classical music world, is improvisation, and he has also started composing, which is a different process from improvisation.

I encouraged him to start composing and supported him (emotionally) as he went through a difficult situation in his career, where he experienced a lot of professional jealousy and career stress. I think it was partly this stress that led to his first EA, which was with a young and gifted musician. He got to play the role of mentor and his admiration for her talent "morphed" into some pretty confused emotions. All history now, as he put it himself. Anyway, while all these "feelings" were running rampant, he poured himself into composing a set of very beautiful songs for her. It took several months.

I was aware of his feelings for her, and our own R was hitting the rocks, even though we had not hit D-day yet. I later found out that it had been going on for 6 months before I confirmed it by finding the letters he had written to her.

What I am saying is that, having supported my H entirely, through an extremely difficult career episode which lasted several years, I was repaid by having to listen night after night to his creative process of infatuation with another woman. I would leave him downstairs at the piano and go up to the loft to get as far away as possible. Most BS do not have to listen to their WS yelling up to them 3 flights of stairs "I love her, she's the most beautiful, talented, extraordinary woman I've ever met, and YOU are nothing to me, mean nothing to me, YOU are so insignificant as to not even register on the Richter scale, but THIS woman is AMAZING!" for hours on end. And that's basically what it felt like to me. I had committed my life to him, but I had failed to inspire him. And nothing that I had ever done or been in our life together inspired him to this level. It doesn't have to be that way. Richard Strauss wrote his extraordinary "Four Last Songs" for his wife (remember the song in Year of Living Dangerously?). Dvorak was totally dedicated to his wife.

Well, my H's music was GREAT - I am a musician myself - my own appreciation of music is at a very high level - its what makes me able to support him in a specific way, so that when he plays or asks my opinion of his performance, I am able to say more than just "Well that was nice". Since I have the capacity to appreciate his talent, I recognize that these songs were lovely - good - not mediocre. Quite good. But every note is excruciating to me. And I listened to their gestation, their transformation, their shaping, their forming, every note, every chord, every phrase, every word - night after night, until midnight or 1AM. Most BS don't have to go through this. I'm not saying I deserve a medal - so please don't get sarcastic and offer to award me one. There are many times when I have said I don't deserve any awards because if I had had the money I probably would have left him.

What I do understand is that the creative process is a selfish one. And I don't begrudge my H the expression of his creativity. It would kill him to be denied that.

However, he put the songs away after D-day, and he failed to finish them. He has composed very little since, and that was two years ago. He continues to excell at improvisation, though - goes from strength to strength. I am hoping that someday he will start to compose in earnest again, but perhaps the process reminds him uncomfortably of his temporary "madness". I sense a sadness there. But its his process and its for him to fix, if he can, so I don't go there. Either my H couldn't bear to finish the songs because of the pain they caused him, or he recognized the pain they caused me. I'm not sure which it is, and I will not ask. I am just grateful that I don't have to listen to them. If he ever decides to finish them, I will leave the house rather than stay to hear them.

Can you understand that? I don't condemn you for being creative, but try to understand what your W is going through. You can't do this to her day after day, and then expect her to respond to you with open arms.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

... Shelle reporting in with 2x4 at the ready... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Geez! I take a few days off to nurse a wicked head cold and you forget all the work we've done?
I might be delirious from the half-bottle of NyQuil, but I'll try to make sense...

You still want your W to make a move towards YOU?
Absol-friggin-lutely won't happen while OW is ANYWHERE in the picture.
NC must be consistent.
(Reminder -my H drop-kicked OW out of the picture on d-day, so I am coming from that perspective.I felt safe.)

W does CARE - you just don't see it.
You are looking for the ticker-tape "welcome home" parade and are missing the subtle nuances.

Meanwhile -
She cares enough to be holding down the fort while you have this "crisis of character".
She cares enough to be the grownup while you continue to visit your adolescence.
She cares enough to encourage you to put your child first, she's not asking for anything for herself.
She cares enough to encourage you to "do what you have to do" to come through this a better person.
She cares enough to still be in the same house with you while you continue to struggle with this.

I don't think her comment about finding another OW to get the first OW out of your head is F*d up at all...

she is saying - "Maybe someone else can help snap you out of this, because I sure can't..."

She's still feeling vulnerable... like she's not enough for you...

Why then do you expect HER to come to YOU?

You chose someone else over her and you have not yet made any argument to the contrary.

Pretty plain & simple in the BS's eyes...

She is giving all she is capable of at this time.
Until conditions become more favorable for her to feel safe in your M, this will be the staus quo.

You say you have an "empty bucket" for your W.
Bucket, love bank, heart, no matter.
I'm sure my H's "bucket" was near empty for me on d-day.

Now I can hear you saying,
"Yeah Shelle, but you FOUGHT for your H."
Well, yes - to an extent I did.
Meaning, that I put forth the first effort.
BUT - if he had not RESPONDED in a positive and encouraging manner, I would not have put forth the next effort, and the next, and so on....
He did not respond enthusiastically to EVERY effort, but in general, I got the feeling that he was making his way back to me... to US.

You have to be willing to fill that bucket back up... one eye-dropperful at a time.
You don't just get to go the "love fountain" that you think you have with OW and fill the bucket up to overflowing.
That fountain may be pretty and enticing, but it contains tainted water, my friend.

It seems to me that you are holding on to bad feelings from the past in your marriage so that you can continue to keep your W at arm's length.

Beware - it looks like the lazy way to be able to divorce and say, "Well, she just didn't want me."

You are too smart not to see that you are on that path. Just "being" in the home with your W is not being in recovery.

My advice is to ignore the "empty-bucket", get out of your own head for awhile and do something fun and spontaneous for you & your W.

I bet you haven't done anything fun and/or romantic since this started, hmmm? It may feel awkward, but you can't say that you have really tried until you force yourself out of the box you have yourself in.

Look how positively you responded to the suggestion that you go away by yourself for awhile.

It would be so easy to just escape, wouldn't it?

But you'd have to come back to reality at some point, so why bother?

If you really want to challenge yourself, go somewhere with your W for a weekend.
You don't have to be romantic or have s*x,
just re-connect.
Sounds like neither of you is letting that happen as things are now.

You contine to come here with things your W has said that freak you out - but from a BS's point of view,
I know what she's feeling, what the hidden meaning is to the things she says that disturb you.

Stop blaming this "limbo" on your W not reaching out for you, fighting for you, etc....
Give her a reason to want you.
You're not "worthy" you say?
"I'm a bad person" you say?
Then why should OW want you either?

You've really got your W painted into a corner...
I admire her strength for sticking it out this long... (remember how impatient I am?!)

Ok, NyQuil is kicking in, so I'd better say goodnight.

Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

BrambleRose .... excellent points!

The Lessons Children Learn .... what are you teaching?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>-TMD

I haven't posted to you before but I have been reading.

You said you don't feel comfortable talking to your wife about the affair - and I suspect that is part of the reason she isn't responding the way you'd like her to, to the crumbs you have thrown her way.

You've done an incredible job of expressing the overwhelming emotions that you are coping with right now. I think your eloquently expressed pain is clearly a argument for fidelity to anyone who is considering infidelity as a path to happiness.

BUT. Multiply the depth and power of your emotions by 10.

</strong>
In my present state, anyone dealing 10 times my struggle would be dead... I know that for fact. I get it though... The betrayal... the feelings of loss... the terror of the unknown with potentially no support... the wasted investment in so many years for seemingly nothing... a life that went from I'm going to grow old with this man to... How am I going to do this on my own... I could go on... and on... and on... But I get it.
<strong>

THAT is what your wife is dealing with.

Would you, in her shoes, make yourself vulnerable to more devastation and betrayal, considering your unwillingness to truely make the choice to put the enourmous effort into her that you are still choosing to put into the OW instead?

</strong> Nope. I would have let her go on D-Day... If that was what she wanted. <strong>

Nothing changes...if nothing changes. From your wife's standpoint, you haven't changed. Your emotional effort is still directed BY CHOICE at the OW.

</strong> Pointless to argue that. <strong>

Everything that I have read your write about your wife's responses just scream that what she NEEDS in order to respond to you, is for you to fight for HER. She has no desire to be second choice - especially to the woman who assisted you in such a devastating betrayal. No woman does.

</strong> I've already demonstrated and vocalized and written that she is second choice... That went down months ago when I told her about all this... just a bit before I came onto MB... That's a tough one to reverse. I've already told her about 'the fog'... she retorts... "you wrote it to me in that letter..." "...Would you like me to get it for you so you can read it?..." I was pretty thorough in that particular excavation early on.

So fighting for her comes across as a bit hollow and frankly unbelievable... even during the time that there was no contact and I fully believed there would be no contact. It was still difficult to make ME believe me... let alone her.

I agree with all you've said... It just isn't so cut and dried for me emotionally.

<strong>

Personally, I suspect that the fact that she is still living under the same roof with you is proof that she is trying - and that is ALL she can give you.

</strong> The same occurred to me while I was describing things to my counselor last week. No arguement <strong>

She's given you the roadmap back to her heart - does she have to hit you with it between the eyes?

</strong> Ummnnn... apparently so... I Fail to see a roadmap or anything remotely so salient as an invitation of that dimension. Must be that damned fog.... sorry... I'm tired... <strong>

When my husband betrayed me, I wasn't just angry that he betrayed me....I felt that he had betrayed our FAMILY, and that meant he had betrayed our children. How? He put their lives at risk - by devastating them emotionally, risking their financial stability, and breaking up their home. The result of his affair meant that there was not enough money to pay the bils, much less do anything nice for them. But somehow there was money for him to take the OW to Cape Cod...while his children had no vacation. His OW planned to make sure that he paid almost nothing in CS compared to what he was making....there went my children's future, and there went their mother off to work, making sure that my children lost the presence of not one parent, but TWO.

</strong> Well... I get part one... and have heard as much from my wife's own mouth... And I can't argue that either.

For part two... My intentions during the worst of this mess couldn't have been more opposite from what you described of your support issues. And if the worst happens anyway.... and we split... an army cot suits me fine... my spoils go to my son and his mother first... which would... in truth.. be the very least I could do.
<strong>

Do you get it? Knowing that you will never ever put your son at risk by betraying his mother is a VERY BIG DEAL. When your wife says "Put our son first", I suspect it means more than "Spend quality time with our son."

It means taking steps to make sure that the integrity and security of your son's home life is NEVER put at risk again, by your selfishness.

</strong> So is that why she handed me a list of places to take my son and spend quality time with him? I'm not sure she has your depth of thought in that regard. But I'll give you the benefit of experience in knowing her thought better than I. <strong>

As long as your wife sees that you are emotionally loyal to your OW, her son's security is at risk.

I think she is busy protecting herself, and trying to ensure her son's safety.

</strong> True <strong>

The ball is in your court.

</strong> presently out of bounds and there's no ref to blow the whistle and restart the clock. I don't mean to be flippant. I'm working on this inside of ME right now... I AM moving some... I can feel it. But I tried to push the envelope and look where that got me. Right back here. I tend to opt for the Terminator aproach. I'd rather slow down and deal with me and not force a fake emotional break from the OW. I'm a veritable magazine rack as you know... I have issues. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <strong>

PS. I know that you don't want to take antidepressants, but I'd strongly encourage you to do so. Once you are in an emotional tailspin downwards, its very hard to reverse it without help. I know this from very hard experience.

</strong>Geez... ya buncha pushers!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm on Day 5 of my Zoloft regimine. Thanks

-TMD

P.S. And thanks Pep for bumping this within the thread. <strong>

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ahh Shelle ---

I'm tired. I'll try to get to your post soon.

Hope you're feeling better.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ShelleBelle66:
<strong>... Shelle reporting in with 2x4 at the ready... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Geez! I take a few days off to nurse a wicked head cold and you forget all the work we've done?
I might be delirious from the half-bottle of NyQuil, but I'll try to make sense...

You still want your W to make a move towards YOU?
Absol-friggin-lutely won't happen while OW is ANYWHERE in the picture.
NC must be consistent.
(Reminder -my H drop-kicked OW out of the picture on d-day, so I am coming from that perspective.I felt safe.)

W does CARE - you just don't see it.
You are looking for the ticker-tape "welcome home" parade and are missing the subtle nuances.

</strong>
DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT.... I'm not looking for a friggin parade!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I NEVER NEVER said that. Jimminy Christmas!! Everyone else keeps saying that. I NEVER SAID THAT!!!

I said.... I went into the EFFORT on my part with NO EXPECTATIONS... OK folks? Let draw a line of demarcation right now between my words and words that people imagine I'm saying. I was fine with the slow progress... I hit the wall on the "go find somebody else..." comment. OK... Ig she'd not said THAT... I mean... whether ARK is on the money there or not... the effect of those words on me after 2 week of no contact sent me packing emotionally all over again. Whether or not I misunderstood is moot... The effect was what it was...

What excruciatingly perfect timing for the OW to call don't you think?!? <strong>

Meanwhile -
She cares enough to be holding down the fort while you have this "crisis of character".

</strong> point taken. <strong>

She cares enough to be the grownup while you continue to visit your adolescence.

</strong> uncalled for. We were quite adult during the better portion of our time together. <strong>

She cares enough to encourage you to put your child first, she's not asking for anything for herself.

</strong> Hmmn. <strong>

She cares enough to encourage you to "do what you have to do" to come through this a better person.


She cares enough to still be in the same house with you while you continue to struggle with this.

I don't think her comment about finding another OW to get the first OW out of your head is F*d up at all...

she is saying - "Maybe someone else can help snap you out of this, because I sure can't..."

She's still feeling vulnerable... like she's not enough for you...

</strong> I still think that's a bit f*d up. But I'm sticking with what ARK said... just have to get there emotionally before I could say those words. <strong>

Why then do you expect HER to come to YOU?

</strong> Do we have to go through THAT again? <strong>

You chose someone else over her and you have not yet made any argument to the contrary.

Pretty plain & simple in the BS's eyes...

She is giving all she is capable of at this time.
Until conditions become more favorable for her to feel safe in your M, this will be the staus quo.

You say you have an "empty bucket" for your W.
Bucket, love bank, heart, no matter.
I'm sure my H's "bucket" was near empty for me on d-day.

</strong> NEAR empty ain't the same sweetheart. <strong>

Now I can hear you saying,
"Yeah Shelle, but you FOUGHT for your H."
Well, yes - to an extent I did.
Meaning, that I put forth the first effort.
BUT - if he had not RESPONDED in a positive and encouraging manner, I would not have put forth the next effort, and the next, and so on....
He did not respond enthusiastically to EVERY effort, but in general, I got the feeling that he was making his way back to me... to US.

You have to be willing to fill that bucket back up... one eye-dropperful at a time.
You don't just get to go the "love fountain" that you think you have with OW and fill the bucket up to overflowing.
That fountain may be pretty and enticing, but it contains tainted water, my friend.

</strong> nice analogy... tainted or no... one bucket is full... one is not. the rest is semantics. I know that no contact will leave both buckets empty... in time. <strong>

It seems to me that you are holding on to bad feelings from the past in your marriage so that you can continue to keep your W at arm's length.

</strong> Nope. I'm too messed up about my own screw up here to give a flying F* about how we failed eachother over the years. I have enough to worry about just getting through the present day. <strong>

Beware - it looks like the lazy way to be able to divorce and say, "Well, she just didn't want me."

</strong> That was never a thought... My thoughts quite frankly are that... I had a change of heart... I can no longer stay in this relationship in good conscience... any other choice would be a farce. It's pretty much what I said in that letter I gave my W. <strong>

You are too smart not to see that you are on that path. Just "being" in the home with your W is not being in recovery.

</strong> Alright... UUGGh! <strong>

My advice is to ignore the "empty-bucket", get out of your own head for awhile and do something fun and spontaneous for you & your W.

I bet you haven't done anything fun and/or romantic since this started, hmmm? It may feel awkward,

</strong> Awkward?!? -- what a gift for the understatement. <strong>

but you can't say that you have really tried until you force yourself out of the box you have yourself in.

Look how positively you responded to the suggestion that you go away by yourself for awhile.

It would be so easy to just escape, wouldn't it?

</strong> No it wouldn't.. It would serve only to compund the level of guilt that already weighs me down. <strong>

But you'd have to come back to reality at some point, so why bother?

If you really want to challenge yourself, go somewhere with your W for a weekend.
You don't have to be romantic or have s*x,
just re-connect.
Sounds like neither of you is letting that happen as things are now.

You contine to come here with things your W has said that freak you out - but from a BS's point of view,
I know what she's feeling, what the hidden meaning is to the things she says that disturb you.

Stop blaming this "limbo" on your W not reaching out for you, fighting for you, etc....
Give her a reason to want you.
You're not "worthy" you say?
"I'm a bad person" you say?
Then why should OW want you either?

</strong> Nice. Interesting how you threw that in there. <strong>

You've really got your W painted into a corner...
I admire her strength for sticking it out this long... (remember how impatient I am?!)

</strong> I remember.. thanks for coming back swingin'.

-TMD<strong>

Ok, NyQuil is kicking in, so I'd better say goodnight.

Take Care,
Shelle</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

LIR -

Thank you for your post. I wonder if you can fathom what it felt like for your husband to put that work of art in a drawer and lock it.

He clearly loves you much more than he loves himself. In some ways.. difficult to explain... the emotional bond to a composition of music is... intangible... I cannot describe it. I can describe my emotions for the OW. My connection to music is deeper... more integral...

I'm blown away that he did that for you. You should be too. Blown away.

________________________

Everything you've described... I've already imagined her going through. I'm not so wonderful a man as your husband.

I would advise you that his connection to what is in that drawer is much more than just a link to a misstep in his marriage.

That is advice I can give from an expert's perspective. Completing it will be a form of closure for him... a catalyst to healing for him...? or an open wound for him...? you choose.

Seems there are no choices in life that aren't double-edged.

...Blown away.

mmmmmm.... he loves you very much.

-TMD

TMD,

First let me say that I have been uneasy that I advised you to move out...that is not really my place and or very pro-marriage builders...and yet I'm just going to put that advice on hold for now....I am sorry that I said that to you...

Second I want to address the situation of continued contact with the OW that you say is a fix for your pain and plead my case as to why it causes damge over and over again

Let's start with the basis that regardless of your lack of choice....SHE the OW at this time has chosen to work on her marriage...
and as we know her husband is informed of her digression as well as his wish to heal and repair the marriage...

she infact sends you the no contact letter which ends you up face down here...
(WE being nice people pick you up...and atleast set you back on your feet... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
anywho I digress as usual....

so you cry and mourn and rally against the no contact which is understandable...
and then you both break it....over and over ..
a little by first...till you will get sick of it as well...and then you attempt no contact for-real...
counting the minutes no contact....
letting the thought of no contact consume you

and then a seven hour phone conversation...
and back to square one...
and now contacted access and voice mails...

problem is that her wanting to work on her marriage...is the action and is the choice..regardless of the words spoken between the two of you...

this continued contact actually becomes the food for continued guilt and pain...for it undermines without changing the action or choice...for nothing has changed...
EXCEPT the real effort to work on their marriage...

which plays in to the scenario of really trying 100% to fix things before moving on...

If you are always in the wings holding out for some sort of contact....then the mission of giving the marriage it's all to see if it can/will work is never accomplished...perpetuating this cycle of pain is ALL that is accomplished....

And so the cycle and dance begin...
contact...no contact...contact...no contact...
and through this her husband is hurt again and again as is your wife....

so as is you and she....

You need to stop this cycle...it will hurt you...
you think we recomend no contact because we abhore the Other Person...we hate contact because it hurts a lot of people...he she him her.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
we don't say that because we want it to be true..we say it because it is true it is difficult to read your pain here...and know that others hurt as well....

The other point I want to make...is that you say you feel nothing for your wife...you dig for it...and it's not there...well part of that is because you have withdrawn from her a long time ago...that to keep the affair alive when in full swing was robbing you and your wife of the actions needed to sustain a marriage..
you have so to speak conditioned yourself for a long period to rationalize and be in your affair...

for the affair to be so "right"...the marriage must be so "wrong"

Is that a true statement?...I don't think so...but you spent a lot of time convincing yourself...

And each contact will reinforce that as well...

the futility of continue contact....

Well that's enough for 4:30 am on a Sunday....

for some reason I have the Doobie Brothers song What A fool believes playen in my head...

which is no reflection..TMD..it's just a sad song...

ARK

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Dear TMD,

Thank you for reading my post - I know that things are tough for you right now, and sometimes things can get quite intense on these boards. I have no wish to make things more difficult for you, but I offered it in the hopes that it could help you understand why your wife may not be able to "work" on the marriage in the way you seem to want her to.

I wonder if you can fathom what it felt like for your husband to put that work of art in a drawer and lock it.

I can, actually. I am not an un-creative person myself. The whole reason why my H and are were attracted to each other in the first place is because we are both creative people. However, we had 2 kids. And I was the one who took care of the kids while he worked hard at developing himself and his career. That has meant that I have had to put many, many of my own creative ideas and keep them in a drawer. Funny you say that, because I actually have a little chest with 3 tiny drawers. When I get an idea for a story, I write it down on a tiny piece of paper and stick it in one of the drawers. I know that I will forget it, if I don't. Later, I can go back and take out my idea and work with it -WHEN I have some time. But its pretty difficult to formulate ideas when you have a seven-year old telling you in depth about the life and multiple deaths of his latest Lego Makuta. My H is able to go into his "music room" and shut the door against the family and work. I am not. I take care of the family so he CAN do this. I do not take any credit for my H's creativity. I do take credit for helping him have a family while at the same time being able to continue to be a creative person. All I want is to be appreciated for that, which I do because I love him. He wanted children. He feels life would have been incomplete without children. He actually wanted more children than we have now. But someone has to take care of them. But I digress.

He clearly loves you much more than he loves himself. In some ways.. difficult to explain... the emotional bond to a composition of music is... intangible... I cannot describe it. I can describe my emotions for the OW. My connection to music is deeper... more integral...

I do think I have a very good understanding of this bond. Music is something that happens in time - like air, you cannot hold on to it - music creates an emotional connection in the listener which happens only in the time when one is listening to the music. Its not like a peice of writing, or a painting , which have more permanence in the real world (as long as they are not burned). Music is a realtime experience which happens only in the moment. You can play the same music many times, and the same emotional connection does not always happen at the same moment. To be able to create music out of yourself is an intense experience which is almost impossible to describe. I know. I live with someone with your kind of gift. Its not something my H is able to describe either, although he has tried.

However, I am not sure that you are right about the reasons why he put those works away. It is assuming a lot that he put them away to spare me the pain of hearing them. Actually, he gave them to the OW. And in his bios, he includes "songs" in his list of works he has produced. I do think that were he ever to put on a concert of his own music, that it is entirely possible that he would schedule these on to the program. Hopefully, if he did that, he would get someone other than OW1 to sing them.

I am still guessing as to why he put them away. I am guessing that it was because he could no longer continue with them. It may be because he realized that his feelings for the OW were wrong (although he steadfastly refused to admit this). It may be because now they bring up the feeling of shame, which he is trying to put behind him. It may be because he no longer feels those feelings for the OW, so the creative impulse has left him. He could have put those songs away for a lot of other reasons than just because they cause me pain. I can't know for sure unless I ask him, and I am not going to ask him. I do not want to remind him of the feelings he once felt for the OW. What I am saying is that I am well aware than my pain doesn't necessarily figure into his reasons for putting those songs away.

What I am sure about is that my H loves me. Last week he played a recital, and he improvised. I thought it was one of his best. Driving home in the car, he asked me what I thought and I offered him my thoughts on his performance. I said I thought there was a moment during the improv where I felt "something happened" - since he has just been given a recording, I could probably pinpoint that moment. He said he thought that, too - he felt something happen, something different. (Gee, its so hard to put this into words). I am sure HE knows where that moment happend. But what I am able to do for him is confirm that for him - that's what I am able to offer him - so that he doesn't create in a vacuum. I don't criticize, or suggest. I am able to validate the intangible for him. For a performer, this can be something very rare. A performer gets applause at the end (usually). If you are good, you get lots of applause. If you have fans, you fans will always applaud. How does the performer know what exactly he did to get the audience to be "with" him? He has feelings about his performance, but how can he really know - how can he sift those moments out of the applause?

The way I see it, any OW can admire my H until the cows come home, and he will lap up that admiration, especially if that admiration comes from talented people. But only someone who has known him for many many years, and has listened to his creative process can help him sift the exalted moments out of the general applause.

I'm blown away that he did that for you. You should be too. Blown away.

Well, I guess I would be blown away if I could be sure he did it for me, but I'm not sure. I also am not going to demand that he put those songs away, because my H and his creativity are one. I don't love the songs, but I love my H's creativity.

________________________

I'm not so wonderful a man as your husband.

Don't compare yourself. I am sure that you, too are wonderful. And like I said, you assumed a lot about my H's reasons. My H can be wonderful and still do something that hurts me. So can you.

I would advise you that his connection to what is in that drawer is much more than just a link to a misstep in his marriage.

I do know that. I hope you have gathered that I do understand that from what I said above.

That is advice I can give from an expert's perspective. Completing it will be a form of closure for him... a catalyst to healing for him...? or an open wound for him...? you choose.

I don't choose. I leave it up to him to choose. He has the freedom to choose.

Seems there are no choices in life that aren't double-edged.

I love my dad's way of putting that - there ain't no free lunch! - but life is worth living!

Smile - TMD - you are a valuable person with a lot to offer. You will get through this - I am just hoping your wife can, too - and your son.

I don't know how best to support you, really. Like Orchid once said, I can't support you in any way in continuing an affair which is hurting your wife and causing you so much pain. I try not to use the 2x4, because I know myself, and when I do pick up the 2X4, I tend to go in for the kill, which is not good, not good! So I tread lightly, and try to validate the good that I see.

All the best,
LIR

TMD, I think you know by now that I don't sugar-coat my opinions to make them more palatable to the general audience here on MB. I may sound harsh at times, but I respond as such because I truly believe that you can be happy in your M again, you just aren't allowing yourself to see it right now.

Your marriage has a chance to survive, but yet you shun the possibility...
merely "being" in the same house for the sake of the child, but seemingly not making any efforts to create stability for the future of your M and your S. In fact, conciously undermining the chance for stability by continuing contact with OW, sabatoging the chances for your M (and OW's)to recover.

If I have mis-read something, please let me know, but I don't remember seeing you specifically tell us what YOU have tried to do to recover your M other than just "be there" physically.
Is that all you have to offer your W & S?

"I'm not looking for a friggin parade!!! I NEVER NEVER said that. Jimminy Christmas!! Everyone else keeps saying that. I NEVER SAID THAT!!!'
No, you didin't say that directly.
But tell me this - why do you think we all have gotten that idea?

"I hit the wall on the "go find somebody else..." comment. OK... If she'd not said THAT... I mean... the effect of those words on me after 2 week of no contact sent me packing emotionally all over again. Whether or not I misunderstood is moot... The effect was what it was..."
IMHO -the way you describe your interactions with your W is such that she is DOING things to you, that you see yourself as the victim. You are conciously framing her as "bad" so that the A and the OW can be cast in a better light. You cling to it.

"What excruciatingly perfect timing for the OW to call don't you think?!?"
So are you saying that because your W was not sensitive to your 2-week NC feelings, that you deserved to speak to OW for 7 hours when she called at that "perfect" time? Again possibly inferring that OW is good, when in fact OW was acting out of pure selfishness, intentionally inflicting pain upon you, your family, her family, and herself. Nothing "perfect" about that.

Look, if we are to believe what you keep reiterating in different ways, you are NOT in love with your W and do not WANT to continue the M, whether it could be recovered or not. You made the "break" with your W and have no intentions of truly making the efforts to recover your M. You are only happy and "anxiety-free" when in contact with OW. You don't mind participating in the destruction of OW's marriage and family as well as your own M enough to put a stop to the behaviors that are causing pain to everyone involved, including yourself.
Did I get it correct?

Your comments to Terminator about "letting my dreams fall by the wayside to pursue a comfortable life for my family" seem to confirm my earlier suspicions of a mid-life crisis.

Stick with the Zoloft, give it time. I took it when I had panic attacks after d-day and was dignosed with PTSD. It took about 3 weeks to really feel it helping, but I was taking a bit less than what you are.

I don't know what else to say...
You definitely have yourself in the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place".

Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by -TMD:
<strong>LIR -

Thank you for your post. I wonder if you can fathom what it felt like for your husband to put that work of art in a drawer and lock it.

He clearly loves you much more than he loves himself. In some ways.. difficult to explain... the emotional bond to a composition of music is... intangible... I cannot describe it. I can describe my emotions for the OW. My connection to music is deeper... more integral...

I'm blown away that he did that for you. You should be too. Blown away.

________________________

Everything you've described... I've already imagined her going through. I'm not so wonderful a man as your husband.

I would advise you that his connection to what is in that drawer is much more than just a link to a misstep in his marriage.

That is advice I can give from an expert's perspective. Completing it will be a form of closure for him... a catalyst to healing for him...? or an open wound for him...? you choose.

Seems there are no choices in life that aren't double-edged.

...Blown away.

mmmmmm.... he loves you very much.

-TMD</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMD,
I read your post above and then read LIR's response. Whati I see is that LIR is trying to show you how much it takes for the BS to extend themselves in behalf of the M. When one reads your responses and thoughts, you tend to convey that the BS needs to see how much the WS is going through.

While that is to be part of the solution, what good does that do when the WS is NOT doing the same?

How do you expect to see progress if you point out what you feel your W needs to do for you but not what you are doing for her and your family?

I stil see a very self-centered TMD here and just have a hard time thinking why the caring TMD has been hiding......out of fear of _________?

L.

Dear Orchid,

That's a good point, and I also have to agree with you and ShelleBelle here - that TMD seems to be stuck in the "what about MY feelings" phase, unwilling to get his head around what he can do for his wife, instead, expecting her to DO something that will "make" him want to recover his feelings for her, while at the same time, refusing to end contact with the OW.

I can see that, and I can tell him that my H was there, too. To give some idea of time frame in our case, my H admitted that his Love Bank was empty in August 2001. I thought we had started to recover by Nov, 01. Well, by Feb, 2002, after D-day no. 2, MY LB was pretty darn low, too. End of March, I asked him to leave. He got himself into counselling, etc. - its a long story - October 2002, had a further bust-up and spent 3 months sleeping apart. Reconciled at Christmas 02 - been in the same bed ever since - recovery going good, so far - still some problems. Difference between now, Sep 03 and nine months ago? LOTS more affection expressed by both of us - lots more talking about our lives together - lots more listening on his part - lots more EFFORT into being kind and considerate, even if he does screw-up sometimes - always recognizes when he screws up now and says sorry - always tells me when he appreciates something I do - always says thank you to me for even the smallest things - tries very hard to help me in ways that he can, even though he is busy. Lots has changed just because of those small things. He changed small things, and that has changed big things in our hearts.

But TMD is, in so many ways, no different from my H. When I would try to say to H about my feelings, his unfailing response was "What about MY feelings - don't I count?" He was where TMD is right now for a very long time. I have always tried to be totally honest about things, including trying to face how he really feels about me. If he really didn't love me, the way TMD "thinks" he doesn't love his wife, I would not want to live with my H. The fact that I have children prevents me from being able to think completely selfishly on this score, though. There is still part of me that is trying to make the best of it for the sake of the children. We don't live in an ideal world, and with every relationship, there will be weak areas which always need attention, and feel less comfortable than others. But with us, it seems we are both still willing to try with each other, and ever since we have both been making an effort, things have been better between us. We now even have genuinely happy times, which was not the case for a very long time.
I don't think my H was able to get his head around what he could do for me until the OW were gone out of his life. Until that happened, his attention was always focused on himself and his own needs, and everything else came second, including his children, our home, and me. A couple of days ago, he invited me out to lunch, which was a real nice surprise - so....what I am trying to say to TMD is that...all things are possible...with time and gentle understanding. I also don't think I was any kinder than your wife - I had to bite my tongue to not say some of the things I thought and felt - but ended up saying some of those things anyway. BTW, TMD - my H is no saint, just in case you are tempted to compare yourself unfavourably to him - and I'm sure he'd say the same about me (when he's mad) LOL.

All the best,
LIR