Many of you know my situation, so I'm calling on you to please give me an ear and thought here.

Today I had to take one of our sons for another appointment, and exH had to come too.

All seemed very good, and exH and I discussed things..mundane things...like his job, etc. He seemed very friendly and nice. Even said I could go along sometime when he and the sons do their male 'hobby', and I could watch.

When he left, I asked him for a hug. Big mistake!!! He said 'No' in a very odd way. I said, "It's okay." And he made a face, like he was disgusted by me and the question.

I then couldn't stop myself. I asked him how he felt, since he said he'd make 'baby steps' in July. He said that he'd been making an effort to be nicer, but that he felt NOTHING for me at all. He said NO ATTRACTION to me at all. NOTHING . I asked if it was because I was a bit heavier now than I was years ago. He said NO!!!

I then fell apart and began to literally sob. This led to an hour long discussion, and at one point he said maybe we could have dinner alone sometime (I'd mentioned it would be good to meet alone, without the kids) and so we'll do that one day next week. But again he said there is no guarantee he'll feel anything for me, ever, and that I shouldn't get my hopes up.

What do I make of this? I feel like I'm ready to explode. I cried off and on for most of our conversation.

He said he just doesn't want to try again, for fear it won't work again. He said he'd rather be alone than miserable again. I don't think he's remembering marriage the way I am.

I then brought up all I'd read about infidelity, and how his feelings of repulsion for me were normal at this point. I said it might take 2-5 years for him to feel good about me again.

He said he didn't want to fake it, etc.

He listened thoughtfully, and I apologized for asking for the hug and he said it was okay.

I don't know what to do or think. I know I need to be patient, and he told me he needed more time but there were no guarantees.

I made the mistake of telling him love was a decision, and not a feeling. He didn't see how that could be at all. I tried my best to explain it, but he looked so not believing me.

I said that we gave up our marriage too soon, and that we should have worked on things. He agreed with that, but he now feels adapted and doesn't want to try again.

Sorry to go on like this but I'm at my wit's end. Thanks for listeining. I'm still crying as I just thought he felt something, and he says he doesn't.

Is this a BexS Fog? (betrayed exspouse)

Thanks,
HP

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H_P-

I'm sorry to read that things were so bumpy for you today. Just keep in mind that endeavors that require the most sweat, tears and overall effort are the most worthy of our pursuits. You can bounce back from this.

From your earlier posts I've always got the impression that it was important for you to let your XH set the pace with any recovery. I think you should err towards caution when dealing with him. Something along the lines of being there for him in any way possible while expecting zero in return. I think it shows how you've changed and makes you more attractive to him. To do otherwise fuels his suspicions that you're just thinking about yourself again IMO. You've mentioned before how much you've learned about yourself in the past couple of years so continue down that road. Good luck to you!

H_P,

What are we going to do with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ok! got the old MB 2X4 right here, a couple of thwacks should do the trick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok, sit down and take a load off. Are you sitting? Good. Now let's review the bidding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I asked if it was because I was a bit heavier now than I was years ago. He said NO!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I look fat in these pants?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Now answer carefully, and of course I won't believe you if you say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Don't ask your exH anything like that again. For one thing men hate that, and for another it diminishes why he may feel that way.

So to continue to review the bidding.

He is still angry, you know that, so why do you expect to NOT have a few interactions like the last one? GOTTCHA, no way you are going to smoothly slide through this young lady. Just no way.

Second, he doesn't remember the marriage as you do. His memories of it are actually pretty bad. Let's see he worked opposite shifts from you, sex was reduced, he never really saw you, and often when he saw you, you were busy with other things. Then the last 4 years of the marriage, you treated him like **** and had an affair? Do you suppose that he might remember the last 4 years in a different light than you?

Also, recall you called the tune in the marriage, and when you weren't happy you went off into fantasy land with OM, your H was stuck in reality, HIS reality was of a W that treated him very poorly, so poorly he separated BEFORE he knew there was an affair.

So how did he survive? He walled off his heart, he learned to live without love in his life, and he SURVIVED. He also very likely vowed to NEVER let you hurt him like that again.

Pretty grim picture isn't it?

But, here is where you have to change your approach just abit. Asking him for a hug was actually GOOD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When he left, I asked him for a hug. Big mistake!!! He said 'No' in a very odd way. I said, "It's okay." And he made a face, like he was disgusted by me and the question. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. Do you think he was indifferent?? I don't. Was he shocked? perhaps. Was he disgusted? You think so, but I don't think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then couldn't stop myself. I asked him how he felt, since he said he'd make 'baby steps' in July. He said that he'd been making an effort to be nicer, but that he felt NOTHING for me at all. He said NO ATTRACTION to me at all. NOTHING .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing is good here because he shouldn't feel anything you two DON'T have a relationship. Right? He feels nothing but he does everything you ask of him, right? He isn't attracted to you. Let's think about this for a second. Your H is a male right? He is healthy right? He is still in his 40's right? Yet, according to you he hasn't dated and apparently isn't have sex with anyone. So he feels NOTHING for anybody. Does this sound like walls to you? Sure does to me. Further, he is angry, and he has told you so, but have you seen it? No? Well, you need to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I then fell apart and began to literally sob. This led to an hour long discussion, and at one point he said maybe we could have dinner alone sometime (I'd mentioned it would be good to meet alone, without the kids) and so we'll do that one day next week. But again he said there is no guarantee he'll feel anything for me, ever, and that I shouldn't get my hopes up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P wake up here. You talked for an hour with a man that has no feelings for you and you are going out to eat with him alone next week, something you have not done since the D right? And you are blowing a gasket????? Get a grip here girl, there are feelings there, but he just scared to death.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do I make of this? I feel like I'm ready to explode. I cried off and on for most of our conversation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see progress, and I will offer you my opinions at the end of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said he just doesn't want to try again, for fear it won't work again. He said he'd rather be alone than miserable again. I don't think he's remembering marriage the way I am.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope he is not, because for him it wasn't the way you remembered it. He sees mostly being alone, a lot of pain, and being betrayed. What do you see?

He said himself. He would try again, if he wasn't afraid that it wouldn't work. He is telling you he doesn't think he could handle the pain. Pain is the operative word here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then brought up all I'd read about infidelity, and how his feelings of repulsion for me were normal at this point. I said it might take 2-5 years for him to feel good about me again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't educate him H_P. I know you want to. I know you know your heart, but he doesn't and he will rebel against education.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said he didn't want to fake it, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honest, and very very normal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He listened thoughtfully, and I apologized for asking for the hug and he said it was okay.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said it was OK, and he didn't say don't ever try that again. RIGHT??? He sounds like a man that says what he means and he is very careful with what he says. You don't have to read between the lines. He means what he says, and he doesn't say things he doesn't mean. Which means what he has left out, isn't subject to interpretation, it was left out because he doesn't know how he feels about certain things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what to do or think. I know I need to be patient, and he told me he needed more time but there were no guarantees.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh YEAH!!! I know what you should be thinking and doing, but I am NOT TELLING YOU. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I made the mistake of telling him love was a decision, and not a feeling. He didn't see how that could be at all. I tried my best to explain it, but he looked so not believing me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There goes that education thing again. Of course he doesn't believe it he isn't where you are. BUT you could show him, if he will let you. You could do it at no risk to him IF YOU ARE STRONG ENOUGH.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said that we gave up our marriage too soon, and that we should have worked on things. He agreed with that, but he now feels adapted and doesn't want to try again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He may think that now, but I wonder. Four years is a long time to go without any support in a marriage. I think you two are better off now, with the potential for a fresh start.

OK, I suspect you are getting the idea that I don't think your meeting was a failure. If you guessed that you would be right. But, you need to stop the crying and start the loving that you said is true.

I would suggest that you consider you upcoming dinner. Let me offer you something to think about without an explanation on my part and see what you think.

1. You could offer to be his friend.

2. You could tell him that while he may not need a friend you really do, and you would very much like it if he was your friend. His feeling love for you is NOT a requirement.

3. You could tell him that you do have this urge to be in contact with him, and while you know he doesn't feel the same way, you could like to be able to hug him from time to time. Could he allow that for you?

4. You could offer that you understand that he may never feel love for you again, but you would like to show him that love is a verb. Would he be willing to let YOU show him, without any commitment from him?

5. You could suggest that you do enjoy his company, that you appreciate what he does for you and the kids, and you would like to be his friend again.

6. You could admit that you do love him, remember the marriage fondly, and would like nothing better than to have him as your H, BUT you would really like him for a friend first and above all else.

7. You could tell him that you know he has been hurt, and that he is angry, and you know you are the cause of it. You are willing (promise no tears here, yet right) to listen to him and would really like to hear what he feels and fears about your relationship.

8. You could just face up tell him OK, buster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> TALK. Do you like sex any more? If not why not? IF so, let's talk. I am kidding here.

You got a lot out of him, but I would strongly recommend that before either of you could get really close or even agree to try again, that you should become friends again. You could point out that he has been your friend in many ways, helping out when you have problems,etc. You recognize this, and you would like to be his friend and do things with him. No commitment, no promises, just get to know one another again.

Finally, H_P could you live your life if he was your friend, perhaps VERY CLOSE friend, but not married to you? It is something to think about.

So I hope I have given you a few things to think about. But most of all I hope you realize that this meeting was a good thing and progress was made. You did better than you realize. You cannot drag him and he needs to know you realize this, but you do want to be his friend.

H_P, I have said this to several people lately. He is absolute petrified of you, because you have such power over him. He knows it so the prudent thing is to stay away. Further, he knows you get your feelings hurt easily, so he fears being honest and open with him. If you want him to open up to him, you cannot break down everytime you hear something you don't like. He knows he is putty in your hands when you cry. It also makes you seem unstable to him, and that DOES REALLY SCAR HIM. Your emotions sank the marriage last time.

So, stop sobbing and start smiling. There is more hope than you realize and a lot of hard work ahead, and most of it you need to do on yourself, NOT HIM.

God Bless,

JL

Hopeful-

WOW...I am sorry. There seemed to be a lot of "the right stuff" in your last thread. That seems kinda out of no where doesn't it.

Although it hurts, I wouldn't put too much stock in it right now. He seems "torn" pure and simple.
Like today my EX-W called and said "I love you" and I was disgusted. On many other days I would have been a bit happy to hear that.

Beleive me, I know you and my EX are miles apart in terms of how you have handled things versus how she has BUT I am just trying to illustrate that YES you are right it could be BS fog. You know, everyone that reads your posts know...This man loves you. Him saying that may temporarily help his ego. Hopeful, if you love him...don't give up.

I wish I had more to say than that when you are in so much pain but wounds like infedelity cut pretty deep they aren't unforgiveable but still probably hurt him. You are doing the right things.

Hopeful one question...Are YOU sure YOU would be happy if you re-married?

Take Care

Rly

HP,

I am really sorry to hear that you're hurting so much.

From what you said your H was protecting himself. Nothing more, nothing less. In my opinion, he WANTS TO HUG UOU, he wants to be able to laugh with you, kiss you, be with you... but he is scared sh*&less to do so.

He did say that he's not attracted to you, but why did he agree to go to dinner (mind you, without kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) with you? Just because he is a "nice guy" and he couldn't refuse the invitation? I wouldn't go dinning with anyone I wasn't attracted to. Not just the two of us.

Beleive me, he is giving you a chance. He has to protect himself for the pain he's been through is still haunting him. It's very hard to dismiss it. It reminds him not to trust, not to let anyone close. Despite all of this he IS WILLING to try.

It would be nice if you could convince him that you're not a threat to him, but a source of happiness, but it's not easy. You can see it, we can see it. Him? All he sees now is the source of his pain. So, don't try to show him the map to happiness. The books and message boards cannot compete with his fears.

Please print what JL wrote and memorise it for the next encounter. You will be prepared. He is in BS "fog" right now (read "scared to death"), so don't ask him how he feels. The only answer you will get is "NO ATTRACTION" & "NO FEELINGS". Don't ask a question you're not ready to hear the answer to. HE WILL LIE TO PROTECT HIMSELF AND EVERYTHING HE "GAINED" BY BEING WITHOUT YOU. Remember, he went through A LOT to reach the "safe" place he is in right now. Giving it up is SCARY!!!

If you were in his shoes, wouldn't you do the same?

From where I am, I see progress in your relashionship. Don't give up. Just do what JL told you to.

You did good,

BigStar

Thanks for your thoughts and replies.

I had a LONG reply to each of the people who responded, and then the power went out.

It's too late to retype now.

Thanks again,and I'll respond later. I printed up your replies and am pondering them carefully.

I feel like I've been through the wringer!

God bless,
HP

H_P

I don't really have any advice but I did want to say something.

Don't you dare go giving up! I get a lot of my strenth from reading how patient and positive you have become. Makes me want to be more like that.

As you know, my ex is still attracted to me but that doesn't make me feel better...just used. And believe me that is Not a good feeling.

Just spend any time he might want to spend with you,and he does want to or he wouldn't.

Good Luck
Teresa

Hey there h_p,

I am so sorry to hear how you're feeling. Oddly enough, upon reading your post, and JL's especially, your H's behaviour sounds a lot like my H's behaviour, at least early on in our separation. I can see why my H, and your H are both terrified of opening themselves up to us again for fear of being hurt again. JL's suggestions sound very wise, so wise I may just have to adapt them a bit and apply them to my own situation.

sad*ex, you wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As you know, my ex is still attracted to me but that doesn't make me feel better...just used. And believe me that is Not a good feeling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how my H has treated me for oh so long. He has made it boldly clear that he's still physically attracted to me, and says I should appreciate that. But it's not enough, and it makes me feel like a sex object, not a worthwhile human being deserving of love and kindness.

So h_p, after all your kind encouragement of me, here I am trying to encourage you. Don't give up, try being his friend, try showing him how kind and caring you can be as a friend, and hopefully things will take a positive turn for you. Oh, and try to keep the waterworks from starting up, as JL says, it will make you seem unstable to him, and as many posters have told me, that's just simply not attractive.

Don't lose hope! (You can't, it's in your name for pete's sake!)

Jen

Thanks Teresa & Jen for your replies.

I need to run as work is awaiting me.

I'm feeling more down this morning than I have in a long, long time. I have doubts that he'll even bring up the dinner 'date' again. If he doesn't, do I mention it???

Yesterday's conversation keeps going through my mind. I now am remembering simply crying so hard for a long time, and him standing motionless and firm--not even a pat on the back.

I'm sorry, but this isn't the man I've known for 30 + years. DDay was almost three years ago. I guess he's never dealt with it, so I need to expect this. He's built a wall around him, and it's there in place very firmly. True, I messed up supremely --but I came back to who I always was, and I quit being some weird cheating creature. I know I can't expect that he and I have the same timing. Maybe he'll never let go of this, and forgive me.

Thanks for allowing my vent !!!

On the other hand...
JL and others are probably right. This was a GOOD conversation. It's just difficult and I guess I thought time would erase the anger, but it hasn't really at all, has it?

Do BSs have their own fog, and rightfully so?

I wish I had time to respond to everyone's post, but I don't .

Thanks again,
HP

H_P,

I have a whole bunch of thoughts about your last post, but before I respond to your comments let me offer you something to consider. This is going to sound a little off the wall, but hang with me.

Have you ever noticed how everyone likes an underdog?

Have you ever noticed how sports coaches and players always like to protray themselves as underdogs?

Have you noticed that being the underdog is a HIGLY OVERRATED position? Of course you haven't. Underdogs are underdogs because they lose a lot more than they win. They are underdogs because they haven't prepared as well, don't have the resources, or are deficient in some way or another.

Sports coaches love to protray themselves as underdogs, even when they KNOW their team is equal to or better than the team they are playing, because they feel it takes pressure off the players and allows them to play with more confidence because they feel they have less to lose. We fear being overconfident, which interestingly seems to mean we fear being confident.

Wrong approach. People who do things with confidence often succeed because the reason they are confident is founded in hard work, preparation, planning, and past experience. By definition you are NOT an underdog if you are confident in your goals and your preparation. It doesn't mean you win all of the time but you have a better chance.

What does this have to do with you? I'll ask you two questions:

Do you think you appeared confident or as an underdog to your exH?

Given your H's fears do you think you inspired confidence in him that you are a mate he could depend on and learn to trust?

I would like you to reflect on those questions when you get time.

Now to your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm feeling more down this morning than I have in a long, long time. I have doubts that he'll even bring up the dinner 'date' again. If he doesn't, do I mention it???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Darned right you will mention it. Your goal is to get your exH back with you, and standing on the sidelines wringing your hands IS NOT GOING to get it done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday's conversation keeps going through my mind. I now am remembering simply crying so hard for a long time, and him standing motionless and firm--not even a pat on the back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would you expect him to react any other way? You sure didn't pat him on the back as he went through is h**L. Further, you crying is further indication that you are unstable and frankly that instability led to your affair in his mind. You think that sympathy is your friend in this, I don't think it is. You feel if you humble yourself and cry, and show him how miserable you are he will want to come back. I don't think so. I may be wrong, but I would guess he knows he can do nothing for your feelings and he fears, yes FEARS that you would then go find someone elses shoulder to cry on if he came back.

Do you think he wants to be married to a crying woman???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, but this isn't the man I've known for 30 + years. DDay was almost three years ago. I guess he's never dealt with it, so I need to expect this. He's built a wall around him, and it's there in place very firmly. True, I messed up supremely --but I came back to who I always was, and I quit being some weird cheating creature. I know I can't expect that he and I have the same timing. Maybe he'll never let go of this, and forgive me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right maybe he will never let go of his walls. I suspect he has forgiven you. Forgiveness does not mean that the walls come down. He is NOT trying to make you pay for anything right now. You want the relationship, he does not. You goal is to become part of his life again, and be someone he enjoys being around, looks forward to being around, and is comfortable being around. Were you that yesterday?

You are right he is NOT the man you have known. H_P I still don't think you fully realize what you did to him. I am not bashing you here, but when you came out of your fog, you thought: "alright that is over I will get back with H who I now remember as being a great guy and we will heal and move on." There is a problem. He remembers you as you were during the affair. The person you were before is gone in his mind. That person used to exist, but she changed too, into someone who treated him very very poorly and had a 4 year affair.

You know you are back, he has not got a clue. He knows OM is out, but I would guess he feels you just want him back as the convenient second choice or until someone better comes along. He is NOT buying that. He doesn't want to come back under these conditions.

So let's do some guessing here. If you were sitting on a cloud running your H's life, would you want him happy? If so, would you want him to remarry? If so, what kind of woman do you think would make him happy? What traits would she have? How would she act? Would their interaction be very romantic and mushy?? Or is that what YOU would like?

H_P, here is where we talk about time and preparation. Here is where we talk about planning. Here is where we talk about confidence. You must be confident or he will never be. Here is why I wanted you to try and give him a hug. You need data. You need to probe in many different ways, and then take the data and look at what you learned. YOU NEED CONFIDENCE IN YOURSELF AND IN WHAT YOU ARE DOING. And then you must become RELENTLESS. Not in bugging him, but in the learning, probing, working on being his friend, someone he enjoys being around, talking politics, sports whatever with.

H_P, this is just the beginning. Notice he isn't running from you. Maybe he is being polite, well his politeness is going to be his weakness, use it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> When you two go to dinner, enjoy it. Talk about things, kids, weather, jokes you have heard. Let him talk, probe him about current events, ask his opinion, smile, and LISTEN. No relation talks. Just a good time.

When it is over, perhaps a quick and I mean quick, this guy is slippery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , peck on the cheek, and a statement of how much you enjoyed talking with him, and ask him to do it again. Then do it again, and again, and again.

He needs to see you as you are: a changed woman, but a woman that wants him. If he asks your intentions, tell him with confidence. "I want you back in my life. My goal is to prove to you that I learned alot, and what I want is a relationship with you where you feel safe."

No need to hide it. No need to fluant it. Confidence H_P. "I'm going to get you. He! He! Sooner of later I'm going to get you."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for allowing my vent !!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Venting IS allowed, but feeling sorry for yourself has to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On the other hand...
JL and others are probably right. This was a GOOD conversation. It's just difficult and I guess I thought time would erase the anger, but it hasn't really at all, has it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the quote that Coffeeman and others use? "Time erases nothing if nothing is done." Your exH hasn't lost his anger because he hasn't come out from behind his walls. H_P if you completely fail in your efforts to get him back, but bring out the anger in him, and you force him to face what happened, you have given him a big gift. At least give him the gift.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

H-P hi,

I've been following your posts but haven't bothered to come out of the woodwork to post because there is not much anyone could possibly add to the insight JL is giving you.

Just one word "empathy". Look it up, learn it and live it. All your posts are about you and what you want. What does your ex want? You haven't a clue.

And a vent. How dare you assume he gives a damn about whether or not you weigh more than you did. You are a vain, vain women who lives by convential wisdom. Get a life. If you do, some one, some day, just might, want to share theirs with you.

People keep posting to you for the same reason they take in stray cats.

Maybe you'll make out for that reason alone.

Hi ,
Thanks for your replies, JL and Olderandwiser. (I'd wondered what happened to you Older, good to see your name here again, and hear from you!).

You know , after I posted this morning I drove to work and had the same thoughts that you two expressed to me. I realized what a jerk I was to have felt and said what I did. I thought to myself how I'd put him through H, and that I was a complete baby and brat for feeling he should feel anything for me. I then realized that in light of what I'd done, he was very good to me!

You're right too, that I certainly had no empathy for the situation. I didn't show any here in my post, and even if I feel I do most of the time in life, I haven't in regards to this situation, really.

Before I address your posts, I wanted to say that I did talk to him this evening on the phone. He was very nice and friendly, and warm. My voice exuded confidence, for the record. I didn't cry this time, although I had to really push it here and there not to do so.(cracking voice) I thanked him for listening, and I apologized for being too overly emotional yesterday. He was his usual kind self and said he understood. I told him that he had every right to feel as he did about me and the end of the marriage, and that I needed to grow up and face the music of what I'd done. I told him that I appreciated that he always understood me since I first met him, and that I wanted to know more how he felt when/if he ever wanted to tell me. He was very nice about it, and said he appreciated that I told him these things. I also mentioned that it was unrealistic of me to feel I could switch a switch and all would be back to normal. That was how I felt inside, like I'd lost myself and then regained my senses again-- but I was sorry I was so insensitive to HIS FEELINGS in this. The poor man was the victim of my selfish actions in having this stupid A. He said he appreciated that I'd said what I did tonight a lot! So at least that felt good to have a few words with him.

JL,
As I said last night I had a huge response typed to you from yesterday, and then the power went out. It was too bad! Thanks again for the time you took, there were great ideas and I did print it up, as I did tonight.

As for today's post:

I liked the underdog depiction and why we like him. You're right, I don't like to appear overly confident in all of this with my exH. I am confident in my goals with him, and I like your no-nonsense idea of setting about it with conviction and preparation.

I am sure that I now appear mostly as an underdog to my H. I was more confident for awhile, but now I feel so much of my emotion is tied up in being married to him again that I'm almost afraid to do anything. I freeze in terror. That has to stop.

I called him tonight, and said what I did..instead of stepping away from it and being too afraid to do it. He did, as I said, seemed to take it well.

You're right, JL, I certainly didn't inspire my H to think I was someone he could depend on and trust.

Okay, JL, I will mention the 'dinner' date. My fear (oops!) again is that he'll change his mind, and say he doesn't want to. If so, I promise to shrug it off and keep trying again, and not wait nine months this time to ask him.

You're right, and this I realized as I drove to work. Why should the man comfort me when I cry? I hurt him to the core. It was selfish of me to even feel like he should feel the urge to pat my back!

Really now, JL..you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Further, you crying is further indication that you are unstable and frankly that instability led to your affair in his mind. You think that sympathy is your friend in this, I don't think it is. You feel if you humble yourself and cry, and show him how miserable you are he will want to come back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That I must answer back to! First of all, my reason for crying is not to make him see how miserable I am and make him want to come back. My reason for crying is that I simply was overwhelmed with emotions, and there he was...and the emotions are because of him and how I've lost him. I'm not a rock. I realize that as I was sobbing I didn't look 'winsome', nor did I look very appealing. I looked like a wreck, inside and out. I simply could not control it.

I've never cried in my professional life, nor do I run around and cry in the typical female stereotypical way. I just was overwhelmed, and in grief.

And, for the record, I don't think that crying makes me look unstable. He knows I'm stable as a person, overall. It makes me look like someone whose heart is breaking, and yes she did it to herself. I don't hold him responsible. I did it, and this is the consequence of what I did.

About fifteen months ago, I was talking to him on the phone and said I was having a hard time dealing with the impending divorce, and that I missed him a lot, etc, and wanted to work on the marriage. I told him I didn't know what to do with all of it in me. He told me, "GO TO A DOCTOR!"

Tonight when I talked to him I apologized, as I mentioned, for my overemotional way yesterday. I told him , "Maybe I should go to the doctor for some medication to make me less emotional,so I can handle things better." He said, "No, you don't need that. I understand why you felt so bad when we talked yesterday."

You mentioned that perhaps he fears I would find someone else's shoulder to cry on , if he returned. That is a good point, but truly I never saw the A as that sort of thing. My exH was extremely sensitive and understanding, and I certainly had my needs met in that area. But you are right, it may be a fear of his.

I see your idea that maybe he has forgiven me, but still has the WALLS. I think they're coming down, bit by bit. I just need to have more TIME AND PATIENCE. That is fine, I can do that very easily.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You goal is to become part of his life again, and be someone he enjoys being around, looks forward to being around, and is comfortable being around. Were you that yesterday?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it was all very nice UNTIL I asked for the hug. That's where I should have said nothing and kept it pleasant.

You're right, I act like I don't realize what I did to him. I would most likely feel as he does, were I in his shoes.

He did say something yesterday about me wanting him back just for a 'warm body'. You're right, he doesn't see that I value HIM, and want HIM. How can I show him that, and reassure him?

I like your cloud idea. ExH and I never had mushy interaction in the sickening sense, but we were always affectionate UNTIL I was fully involved in the A. I actually think I am good for him, as we complement each other in many ways. I'm sure there are hundreds of women who would be good for him too. I know that. But given EVERYTHING in our lives, even the mistakes...of course I think he and I are the best for each other. I can't erase 30 years of knowing him, and our shared history. He's a calm man, and I need that. I tend to be the instigator and motivator of all activity, and he needs that. He's logical, patient, and I'm creative and not so patient.

So asking for a hug was a way to get data. I guess I got my data! Not ready, very angry.

I like your dinner suggestion of simply having fun, no R talk! Will do.

I will clip this out and put it in my wallet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I want you back in my life. My goal is to prove to you that I learned alot, and what I want is a relationship with you where you feel safe."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, JL, a long time ago you told me about a commercial where they'd say, "We're going to get you." I did think of that again this morning, driving to work, and realized I had to take this stance again.

Kudos for bringing up that quote that "Time erases nothing if nothing is done." How true! And like you said, at least if I can help him tear down those walls I've done something.

I did tell him yesterday that I felt he and I needed to face what happened, or he could never go on with anyone else in life--if it wouldn't be me. He did agree with that!

Thanks , JL, for your kindness and inspiring words. You and the others here at MB have truly helped me survive this past year!

OLDERANDWISER,
As I said earlier, tis good to hear from you.

Thanks for the tip on empathy. You're right! I looked it up, and actually thought of how unempathetic I'd been--after I posted today.

It was dumb of me to bring up the weight issue with him. He's more than that as a human being.
I'm not a vain, vain woman who lives by conventional wisdom, but if you want to describe me as such, I'll be fine with it.

Gotta go, can't edit here! kids call me.
Thanks again,
HP

H-P hi,

Sorry about the vent.

I often tell my teenage daughter that in relationships I believe what is between the ears is more important than what one looks like.
She doesn't agree entirely either.

Glad about your last talk. You sound as though you are back on track.

Goood luck.

Thanks Older, and it was kind of you to apologize for the vent.

I agree with YOU, and not with your daughter about what matters in another person. I've never been attracted to anyone based on looks. I asked that ? of my ExH as I was thinking of Harley and how he states that it is an important need of many to have an attractive spouse. I've put on some weight since we separated, and although in my heart I knew that wasn't the reason, I foolishly asked him if THAT was the reason. By the way, I was raised by a mother who put way too much stock in how EVERYONE (male and female) looks, and I'm certainly not that way. I can see where without knowing me in 'real' life, you only have the info. from here to gather, so I guess you could come to that idea. It seems though that even if we're not shallow women, many women do think of their attractiveness, especially after a certain age. (Whether we like it or not, women are judged this way more than men are. It's a fact of life.) In our younger years, the physical attractiveness was almost a given. An interesting book on the subject is Nancy Friday's The Power of Beauty.

Thanks again for your reply, and for following my thread .

H_P

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H_P,

I really liked that you talked with your exH today and what you said. You see ALL IS NOT LOST. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You said a few things I thought I would respond to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That I must answer back to! First of all, my reason for crying is not to make him see how miserable I am and make him want to come back. My reason for crying is that I simply was overwhelmed with emotions, and there he was...and the emotions are because of him and how I've lost him. I'm not a rock. I realize that as I was sobbing I didn't look 'winsome', nor did I look very appealing. I looked like a wreck, inside and out. I simply could not control it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I fully believe your reasons for crying. What I was trying to do is be a mirror for you and see what and say what your exH might have seen and felt. I think that appealing here is NOT about appearance, it is about something deeper: trust.

We'll talk about appearance in a few moments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I've never cried in my professional life, nor do I run around and cry in the typical female stereotypical way. I just was overwhelmed, and in grief.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to apologize to me or defend yourself. I KNOW how much you want this to work, and how deeply you want make things right. Again, just recall that he doesn't KNOW, and so your real reasons aren't necessary clear to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, for the record, I don't think that crying makes me look unstable. He knows I'm stable as a person, overall. It makes me look like someone whose heart is breaking, and yes she did it to herself. I don't hold him responsible. I did it, and this is the consequence of what I did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To use Older's word, empathy. Which is NOT sympathy. You need to realize that your very valid reasons for doing what you do, are not clear to him, and are seen through his filters.

Does he know the reasons you had the affair? Since as you say he is a pretty buttoned up guy, then one of the logical conclusions for your affair is that you were emotionally very needy and not stable. I don't mean insane, but you went with your emotions. So until you KNOW how he is thinking, be very aware that your reasons may not be apparent to him, and he may provide his own explanation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">About fifteen months ago, I was talking to him on the phone and said I was having a hard time dealing with the impending divorce, and that I missed him a lot, etc, and wanted to work on the marriage. I told him I didn't know what to do with all of it in me. He told me, "GO TO A DOCTOR!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let me paint you a picture here and I will reverse the situation. Your H is having an affair and has been for 2.5 years. You have moved out because his treatment of you was so shabby that it was clear he had no love for you, and that was before you found out about the affair.

Now your H calls you and wants to talk about getting together. Your first instinct is to say "great", and then your next instinct is self preservation. What has changed??? He is still having the affair. What does he want? Does he want you to come beg him to come home, and compete with his mistress for his attentions? Will he constantly threaten to go back to his mistress if you don't do exactly as he wants? Do you want to live in that type of bondage?

Wait a minute what about me?? How can I ever trust him again? Was it me, was I not pretty enough, not a good enough cook? Not good enough in bed? Too bosy, not bosy enough?

Let me think, I cannot risk this as long as he is having the affair.

Now H_P you have been here a long time. You have read the indecision and struggles that BS's have within themselves about what to do, not wanting to feel that they are the only one giving, not trusting that they won't be the only one giving, not sure if the OP is out of the picture, and the ever present question will he/she do it again to me?

Given all of that...why would you reflect on the answer your H gave to see a doctor, and take anything from it but that he was disengaged from you emotionally and with good reason. It was not a sinister response, it was the obvious response.

Here is where EMPATHY will help you. It will prevent you from making Distrespectful Judgements, DJ's of your exH. There is a lot for you to overcome here, but there is NO need to add more things or more slights to the pile of them. He is NOT the villian here. AND NEITHER ARE YOU. Do you understand this. At this point in the game, you two are attached via your children and some memories. You are two separate adults, that have some common backgrounds. If this is to work, it will have to work because you enjoy his company NOW, and he enjoys your company NOW.

This will be a new marriage H_P, a new relationship, yup, there is some old stuff hanging around, but the issue will come down to: Does he enjoy your company and do you enrich his life enough to overcome his walls?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tonight when I talked to him I apologized, as I mentioned, for my overemotional way yesterday. I told him , "Maybe I should go to the doctor for some medication to make me less emotional,so I can handle things better." He said, "No, you don't need that. I understand why you felt so bad when we talked yesterday."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is good. He seems to be seeing your point of view. This is a good thing H_P.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mentioned that perhaps he fears I would find someone else's shoulder to cry on , if he returned. That is a good point, but truly I never saw the A as that sort of thing. My exH was extremely sensitive and understanding, and I certainly had my needs met in that area. But you are right, it may be a fear of his.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BET on it H_P. It is one of his fears. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see your idea that maybe he has forgiven me, but still has the WALLS. I think they're coming down, bit by bit. I just need to have more TIME AND PATIENCE. That is fine, I can do that very easily.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the knowledge that you are NOT fighting this from a steep down hill position. I would bet a lot he has forgiven you, and that means you are much more on a level with him than you seem to realize. You can go eye to eye with him H_P. So don't be so defensive and have some confidence in yourself as a woman and someone that your exH might really like to know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said,
You goal is to become part of his life again, and be someone he enjoys being around, looks forward to being around, and is comfortable being around. Were you that yesterday?

Well, it was all very nice UNTIL I asked for the hug. That's where I should have said nothing and kept it pleasant.

You're right, I act like I don't realize what I did to him. I would most likely feel as he does, were I in his shoes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it. In fact you perhaps shouldn't have asked for the hug. You should have just given him one. Asking puts pressure on him, he cannot rationalize accepting it, but if you do it, he can say "what was that about", but he might of liked it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He did say something yesterday about me wanting him back just for a 'warm body'. You're right, he doesn't see that I value HIM, and want HIM. How can I show him that, and reassure him?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be his friend. He probably doesn't have a lot of self-esteem when it comes to women right now. So he sees his value as only what his wallet and physical skills. You go to dinner with him, and you argue about politics, and smile. You talk about the weather, friends and relatives, your kids. You enjoy yourself in his company and YOU HAVE TO BE AT EASE with him. It is that crying thing again.

You really have no idea how crying affects men. It is really complex: part of them wants to make it better, part of them doesn't understand what the heck is going on, and part of them is worried about hurting your futher. In short, it sort of parallizes men.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like your cloud idea. ExH and I never had mushy interaction in the sickening sense, but we were always affectionate UNTIL I was fully involved in the A. I actually think I am good for him, as we complement each other in many ways. I'm sure there are hundreds of women who would be good for him too. I know that. But given EVERYTHING in our lives, even the mistakes...of course I think he and I are the best for each other. I can't erase 30 years of knowing him, and our shared history. He's a calm man, and I need that. I tend to be the instigator and motivator of all activity, and he needs that. He's logical, patient, and I'm creative and not so patient.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but are you acting like the woman he needs and wants? That is the question. Also, since you were the instigator in the relationship, that probably puts him into a corner right? You instigated the A as well. But, my point is that you need to consider this a new relationship. There is baggage and there is history, but it is the future that needs to be the focus. I am not saying just sweep everything under the rug. I am saying your past and history is parallizing you often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So asking for a hug was a way to get data. I guess I got my data! Not ready, very angry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, wrong data. It didn't send him howling off into the bushes and he was very pleasant to talk to the next day. Message: it was no biggie, next time don't ask, just do it if the time seems right. Probe H_P, and then really think about it. Was he REALLY angry or was he just protecting himself? Did he just back away and look funny or did he swear and threaten you if you ever did that again?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like your dinner suggestion of simply having fun, no R talk! Will do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You'd better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You know, JL, a long time ago you told me about a commercial where they'd say, "We're going to get you." I did think of that again this morning, driving to work, and realized I had to take this stance again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RELENTLESS H_P, sooner or later we're going to get you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kudos for bringing up that quote that "Time erases nothing if nothing is done." How true! And like you said, at least if I can help him tear down those walls I've done something.

I did tell him yesterday that I felt he and I needed to face what happened, or he could never go on with anyone else in life--if it wouldn't be me. He did agree with that!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So at the end of your thread, you quietly slip in the most important thing he has said to you in a long while if ever????? You are worrying about him being angry about asking him for a hug. You are so emotional you cannot hold it together, but you call him today, and you get...he is getting ready to face with you what happened. Oh H_P, you have no idea what a step that is.

But, first go to dinner with him and enjoy. Then go to dinner with him again and enjoy. Then perhaps go with the kids and him to something and enjoy. And gradually, find the place to face the past with him. He sounds as if he is getting ready. He said a lot of things to you, that indicate that he is getting ready. Have patience girl. This will get sorted out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks , JL, for your kindness and inspiring words. You and the others here at MB have truly helped me survive this past year!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have missed the point again H_P. Nothing would give me greater pleasure that to post to you and your "H" again. It would be a gift you gave me and others on this board. People give to get, it is that old giver/taker thing, and most here would just love to see another success story. So get with it and hurry up and wait for your exH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi H_P,

I started out to give some advice, but I see JL has that part covered much better than I could do it. I believe you should read this thread over again, and also copy and frame the numbered points he made. Read it daily until it comes natural to you.

I agree that you need to collect data. Data about him, but also data about you. JL's analysis is right on the money as far as I can see. Guys do see things differently and he doesn't understand your reasons for things. I think it would have been good if you explained why you wanted a hug.

Let me tell you a story -

One evening my W and I attended a church function in a neighboring town. As we finished and began the drive home we passed a small drive in restaurant - commonly known to many as a "hamburger joint" but it is the place we met when she was in college, so we like it. She remarked that " they sure make good cherry lemon sprites there" and I said "yes they do" and drove on by. As I turned on to the freeway on ramp, I glanced over and she was visibly upset, so I asked what was wrong. "Why didn't you stop and get me a drink?" What? "Why didn't you stop and get me a drink like I wanted you to?" You never asked me to - "Yes I did, same thing anyway."

Can you see what I am getting at? She figured that if I really loved her, I would have known what she wanted from the comment she made. This is an extreme case, but I use it to help you understand that those differences are real, and though we assume lots of things, it is often wise not to do so. I believe JL covered this very well, I think you need to explain yourself to him, because he is in a very different place than you are. I think you talking to him and explaining about the hug and conversation was a very good thing, and JL is right, you need to be relentless.

If you can give him reasons for things, it may be easier for him to understand and accept your requests. If you tell him that dinner is just to talk, laugh, and so on, he may not fear it so much. Even if he says no, there is always next week, so don't get down about rejection, because it is not rejection, it is only delay.

Ask for time with him, and if he turns you down, wait a few days, and ask about something else. Pretty soon it will be easier for him to go than say no.

Now, can I say something about your feelings, and you crying?
JL is right that it is probably not attractive to him, but you can't do any better than where you are right now. You can learn, and do better next time, (collect data about you too) but don't feel TOO bad about things like this. We learn, we go on, we do better next time. It's a cycle of improvement, so just improve. You will have good days, and there will be days when you make mistakes. Those bad days may bring tears, but you will get through them. Don't be afraid of them, just continue to collect data and learn from it. Data from failure can be as useful as data from success.

I want you to understand that you are doing a good job. Sure you can do better, and you will do better, but you are doing a good job RIGHT NOW. You don't need to be afraid of failure.

I also want to tell you why I help you. I don't believe I feel sorry for you. You came looking for help and you seem to do everything you possibly can to ensure success on your end. It's fun to talk to people that have good attitudes, and that work so hard to succeed. I figure maybe a little of your good attitude will rub off on me, so I come around sometimes.

JL, you are doing most of the real work here, keep it up.

SS

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks so much JL and SS for your replies!

It's very late now, so I'll reply to your thoughts/suggestions when I'm more energetic and awake. I can barely type a sentence at this point.

IT's been a long, long day. Up for about 21 hours now. It's time to go to sleep.

Thanks again! Will write more later on.

HP

I'm glad that I finally have some time to answer the great responses I got! Thanks again.

By the way, it's Tuesday now and exH hasn't mentioned the dinners out. He did say he had some out of town business and would be home later on in the evening than normal, but he got in early today and took out our sons. Tomorrow he is meeting our DD for dinner. That leaves Thursday...I'll mention it later on this evening. I'm prepared for a rejection/retraction of his offer. That's what happened when he asked me for dinner 18 months ago. He told me a few days later he'd changed his mind.

I'm going to be blunt. I know many here are saying that all that's happening is encouraging. I am more down than ever about the entire mess I've made of my life. I so took this man's love for granted. What a fool I was. I think I had hope all this time that the man still 'liked' me, in some part of his heart. I guess he does, but he doesn't act like it. The past year of rejection and non-response to all I've written him, said to him, etc..it's wearing on my heart. I know I need to be strong, but I just wanted to vent that out here. Not feeling sorry for myself.

JL,
Glad you liked what I said to exH last week. Haven't really talked to him much since. Very lonely for him, but that's how it is.

I see your point on the mirror and crying...etc...I vow to do my best not to burst into tears again. It makes me seem far too emotional. I think he does know my reasons for wanting to reconcile, but I'm sure at times it all looks suspect.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now H_P you have been here a long time. You have read the indecision and struggles that BS's have within themselves about what to do, not wanting to feel that they are the only one giving, not trusting that they won't be the only one giving, not sure if the OP is out of the picture, and the ever present question will he/she do it again to me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're so right. I need to keep telling/reminding myself of that.

You're right too, I need more empathy to not make DJs of my exH. He has every right to feel as he does.

I hope he can enjoy my company, and will give me a chance. You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And the knowledge that you are NOT fighting this from a steep down hill position. I would bet a lot he has forgiven you, and that means you are much more on a level with him than you seem to realize. You can go eye to eye with him H_P. So don't be so defensive and have some confidence in yourself as a woman and someone that your exH might really like to know.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the vote of confidence. I feel I've lost all confidence in me in regards to my exH. I am so worried/afraid that he won't ever come back. That fear terrorizes me, in all honesty. I can't imagine living the rest of my life without him. No one else will ever compare to him, and what we did have for many years. I know that many might think that's unreal of me to say in light of me having the A, but it's truly how I see it.
I think that fear immobilizes me at times. Just like the dinner invitation. I should have asked him directly on Sunday evening, but I was too afraid.

You're right too that I should have hugged him without asking. I did that last NOVEMBER, and it didn't seem too bad for him.

I will strive to be more of the woman he wants to be around. It's hard, so much emotion is caught up in this.

HI STILL SEEKING,
Thanks for your reply. I truly have taken to heart what has been said to me, although at moments I do have some down thoughts, and worries.

For the record, I did explain why I wanted the hug that day. It had been a trying day and months for that matter. One of our sons had surgery that day. It was frightening to have him have it, and then we did get a diagnosis the day he had the surgery. No malignancy, thank goodness. I told exH that was why I wanted the hug, as a comfort. Telling him didn't matter at that point.

You're right though, we need to be direct with men and not have them guess at our reasons/motives for things. I am a direct person most of the time in life, and always was with exH until the A.

I hope you're right that soon it will be easier for my exH to say 'yes' to going out with me than to keep saying no. I don't know if you're right, but I hope so.

Thanks too for your thoughts on crying. I promise to stop it! I just cried a bit now to let my stress out as I wrote this, so I won't need to later on tonight. (For the record..it's the first cry I've had since last week's conversation with him. I don't cry all the time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Take care and I'll have to let you know what happens later on tonight.

HP

Well, don't feel down. I'm having a down day too. It's all very confusing. But as someone said, if our spouses are confused, it's up to us to be a beacon somehow. It just gets a bit tiring!

H_P,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the vote of confidence. I feel I've lost all confidence in me in regards to my exH. I am so worried/afraid that he won't ever come back. That fear terrorizes me, in all honesty.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you think he feels? He is terrorized as well. Ask him out, and promise not to molest him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , promise that you will both enjoy it.

You see the problem? Two people terrorized, and both afraid to get hurt. Yet... there is hope.

I could see a good toast coming out of this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't imagine living the rest of my life without him. No one else will ever compare to him, and what we did have for many years. I know that many might think that's unreal of me to say in light of me having the A, but it's truly how I see it.
I think that fear immobilizes me at times. Just like the dinner invitation. I should have asked him directly on Sunday evening, but I was too afraid.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P he is immobilized as well. He is afraid to start something for fear of... you and himself. He doesn't want to hurt you, but he is afraid of what is in his heart. ON the one hand he loves you, and on the other there is anger. How is he to know what will happen? So he chooses to not take the risk. You are also afraid of rejection, and you are afraid of what is in his heart, right?

Well, H_P you might want to tell him your are terrified of the situation and of him, but you want more...

This is a delicate dance. I know I have said that there should be no relationship talks at dinner, but perhaps tonight when you see him you could ask him to dinner and then express your fears. No more than just that you fear his rejection and his anger, but you cannot be guided by that fear now.

And leave it at that. Nothing deeper nor more emotional. Then ask him out, and promise no relationship talks.

What do you think??

Hope something helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: H_P no matter what happens, no tears. You need your eyes to gather the data you need. You need your ears to hear what is and is not said. And your need your emotional attenna at peak gain to read his reactions as you probe for information. You cannot afford to be emotional when gathering the data. This is a long term effort here, and each encounter offers you a chance to gain more information and to plant more seeds that you do love him and want him back.