A BB workshop is a bigbook workshop, Melody.

You asked:

"So are you saying that harsh judgements are RIGHT in those quotes?"

Again, Melody, I am not making determinations of right and wrong. That is the problem here. If you read each of the passages you quoted from me, EACH of them talks about harsh judgement in relation to effecting a change of heart in the person committing hurtful behavior.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have also said that for me personally, having experienced my own life, I feel better about myself and my ability to reach people when I act from compassion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But should you "feel better" about bad behavior? How is it "compassionate" to make someone feel good about bad behavior? I think that is crucial to my point here. No one should "feel good" about bad behavior. They should feel bad

Where on earth do you jump to the assumption that I feel better about bad behavior? I mean really Melody. Where on earth do you read in this that I am making someone ELSE feel good about bad behavior?

I'm sorry that we don't speak the same language. I wrote that I feel better about myself when I reach out to someone engaging in hurtful behavior with compassion. Do you equate compassion with blowing smoke up someone's [censored]? That's really a shame, Melody. Do you equate compassion with giving someone a kiss and a hug and a pat on the [censored] and watching them go out and get drunk or beat a child? That's a shame.

Compassion is from the heart.

It's Ok. I called my sponsor and I went to a meeting and chose the topic of compassion vs. judgement in sobriety. It was a great meeting. The group thanks you for stimulating me into thinking that one up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Goodnight.

<small>[ September 26, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>

It's Ok. I called my sponsor and I went to a meeting and chose the topic of compassion vs. judgement in sobriety. It was a great meeting. The group thanks you for stimulating me into thinking that one up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Goodnight.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anytime. Always glad to help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Goodnight.

Good morning!
This will be my final post on MB. I am writing this in case there is anyone reading who has considered going to AA or any other 12 step group and is unsure what to expect.

When I brought up the topic of harsh judgement and condemnation vs. compassion in AA, the first person to share said "If I had felt harshly judged or condemned for being an alcoholic at my first meeting, I certainly wouldn't have hung around for the second meeting and I doubt I would have remained sober."

After that, every single person shared about their experience with the fifth step. This is a quote from the BigBook of AA about the 5th step. If you are reading this, you will see that it certainly incorporates what Melody is saying about honesty:

"Having made our personal inventory (Fourth Step), what shall we do about it? We have been trying to get a new attitude, a new relationship with our Creator and to discover the obstacles in our path. We have admitted certain defects; we have ascertained in a rough way what the trouble is; we have put our finger on the weak items in our personal inventory. Now these are to be cast out. This requires certain action on our part, which, when completed, will mean that we have admitted to God, ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our defects." (p. 72 4th edition).

Everybody in the group shared that their experience sharing their most shamed and feared secrets, defects and wrongdoings with a sponsor who did not judge or condemn, but instructed them to keep going with the steps and ask God to remove those defects and to make amends was the turning point in their lives - that they who felt like horrible monstors for the wrongs they had done could be met with acceptance rather than condemnation showed them that a spiritual awakening was possible, and that they could go on and create productive, honest lives, no matter how far down they had gone in their past.

That is my last post here. Have a wonderful life!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
<strong>

When I brought up the topic of harsh judgement and condemnation vs. compassion in AA, the first person to share said "If I had felt harshly judged or condemned for being an alcoholic at my first meeting, I certainly wouldn't have hung around for the second meeting and I doubt I would have remained sober."

!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are again confusing condemnation of the PERSON with condemnation of bad behavior and can't discern the difference.
Never have I said that we point fingers at people and call them scum, yet you persist in interpreting my point in that bizarre way. That is not the same as comdemning bad behavior. I have no doubt you exaggerated my point at your table as you did here. Show me a group whitewashes bad behavior and I will show you a very sick group.

In AA, we don't whitewash bad behavior as I have seen you do here. We take an honest inventory of our shortcomings. We learn at AA to stop making excuses and elaborate rationalizations for our sorry behavior. To do otherwise is to stay in DENIAL and frankly, I hear alot of that throughout your posts.

If we have acted like scum, we ADMIT IT, take accountability, make changes and make amends to those we have hurt. That is part of the growing process. Members are who are NOT honest about thier own behavior or who rationalize bad behavior are very quickly set straight, if not my the group, then by their sponsor.

As the book states, those who don't recover "are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty." And this is the beauty of AA, we don't mince words, we consider TRUTH to be the highest form of "compassion," NOT nice sounding words that only enable bad behavior. We got INTO AA by NOT judging our own bad behavior. Continuance of that practice certainly won't get us healthy.

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I am so bad, right? I said I was leaving and I come back for one more. Bad Sungirl.

Please re-read this thread Melody. Never once have I "condoned" or "whitewashed" dishonesty or hurtful behavior.

I began this tangent by pointing out hurtful behavior. I also expressed quite clearly that I have taken my own rigorous personal inventory and went through the subsequent steps as described in the Big Book. As you know after 18 years, that means I have been rigorously honest.

I also posted that I shared my OW status with my group. That is another indication that I have been honest.

I also posted that my goal was to end my relationship with MM, not to continue it endlessly and blow smoke up my own [censored] about it.

I have also posted that I ended that relationship about a year ago, meaning I achieved that goal.

So there is no way that I have described ignoring hurtful behavior, condoning hurtful behavior, or whitewashing hurtful behavior, or enabling dishonesty.

I have posited, from my own experience, that dealing with people engaged with hurtful behavior from a place of compassion has been - from what I've seen - the most effective way to prompt a change of heart.

Your interpretation of that has been to say that compassion, as I define it, is blowing smoke up people's [censored], whitewashing hurtful behavior, condoning dishonesty, or letting people feel good about hurtful behavior.

This leads me to believe that we have different understandings of the word compassion.

Again, if you believe that coming from a place of compassion is whitewashing, blowing smoke and enabling dishonesty, I truly feel for you. I do.

Adieu.

<small>[ September 27, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: sungirl ]</small>

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepperband:
This post is for Melody.... and Sungirl....

Have either of you read M. Scott Peck's book : "People Of The Lie" ?

Peck says:

Quote:

We will see that it is both impossible and itself evil to totally refrain from making moral judgements. An attitude of "I'm OK; you're OK" may have a certain place in facilitation our social relationships, but only a place. Was Hitler OK? Lieutenant Calley? Jim Jones? Were the medical experiements conducted on the Jews in German concentration camps OK? The LSD experiments conducted by the CIA?

Let us look at everyday life. If I am to hire an employee, should I take the first person who comes along or should I interview a number of applicants and judge between them? What kind of father would I be if I discovered my son cheating, lying, or stealing and failed to criticize him? What should I tell a friend who is planning suicide or a patient who is selling heroin? "You're OK"? There is such a thing as excess of permissiveness.

The sentence "Judge not, that ye be not judged" is usually quoted out of context. Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say in the next four verses is that we should judge ourselves [i]before we judge others - not that we shouldn't judge at all. "Thou hypocrite," he said, "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Recognizing the potential for evil in moral judgements, he instructed us not to always avoid making them but to purify ourselves before doing so. Which is where the evil fail. It is the self-criticism they avoid.

We must also remember the purpose for which we judge. If it is to heal, fine. If it is to enhance our own self-esteem, our pride, then the purpose is wrong." [/i]

end quote:

I think you are both closer to each other's opinion than you realize.

Judgements are necessary.

Judgements are not made to enhance our own self-esteem.

Judgements are not made to destroy the self esteem of the judged.

How we judge is important.

The question is how and when to judge wisely.

Evil does not take kindly to being judged because the central defect of the evil is NOT the sin but the refusal to acknowledge it.

We are blessed by our guilt, because it keeps us from becoming evil.

There is room for more discussion. Sungirl, if you run away, you're not the *woman* I thought you were!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

(PS .... a woman not an *enfant*) ((this is an inside joke, and if you don't understand, too bad, I cannot explain to anyone but *enfant*))

Pepperbandito <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />



<small>[ September 28, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Excellent points, Pep, and exactly what I was trying to convey. Judgements have an absolute place in the process of healing and without them we simply live in the limboland of denial and never move forward. I have never advocated harsh judgements in order to HARM, but in order to heal. Big difference. [and I love the book you quoted from]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We must also remember the purpose for which we judge. If it is to heal, fine. If it is to enhance our own self-esteem, our pride, then the purpose is wrong." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sungirl

As an OW, of course I felt a great deal of responsibility towards his children - more than I felt towards his wife.

~~~~~

This is one of the areas you may want to to take a moral inventory ... in order to search the shallowness of your compassion for a woman you assisted in hurting

~~~~~

knowing he was lying and deceiving another woman was not enough to stop me from loving him or to break my emotional bond with him.

~~~~~

loving a man is a good thing you should never have regrets over .... how 'loving' can it be if 'loving' a man means becoming part of that man's sin ... and being so hurtful and deceitful?

~~~~~

He lived the double standard of every MM who believes he can cheat on his wife and still remain a committed father - that all blew up in his face.

~~~~~

and you may have lovingly judged that his standards of conduct were unacceptable to your finer values. And you might have ended the relationship based on your values, making a judgement that adultery is wrong. And, perhaps the outcome of his M may have been different, or not, but at least you would have clean hands as to the outcome of that family's problems

~~~~~

If you are asking - How COULD you be such a horrible person to sleep with a man who had little innocent children at home - I can't answer that in any way that will make sense to you, so I won't try.

~~~~~

I DO think that is a very important question you will eventually answer, NOT for our benifit, but for yours. I DO think it is an important personal question you may be avoiding answering ... becoming accountable to yourself. Please notice YOU called yourself a "horrible person" ... and we did not.

~~~~~

I loved him. No matter how many of you tell me that it wasn't really love, that I only saw his good qualities (I WISH!), that it's not REAL love, etc... I loved him deeply.

~~~~~

You loved him in sin. I am certain you loved him deeply. But not enough to help him avoid a sinful entanglement that may have completed the end of his commitment to his family.

Where can you look back and see that making judgements would possibly have prevented this tragedy?



<small>[ September 28, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

I'm trying to wrap my mind around how, and why people judge some things so harshly and other hurtful, destructive behaviors are let go.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Infidelity is the topic of discussion here.

If we mentally imagine infidelity ... as if it were a solid object we could hold it in our hands .... what would it look , feel , smell like to each of us? Let's call this the A-thing.

During your A, the A-thing might have looked and smelled pretty, and brought joy and laughter into your heart.

The A-thing in my home felt like a burning ball of nails and cut glass being shoved down my throat.

Whose view of the A-thing is "more correct"?

Neither.

But Sungirl, I am wondering, if now, after your A is over .... and you are begining to heal personally and to grow from your experience .... why is it offensive to you to hear that the A-thing you found so joyful and loving .... that same A-thing is a burning sharp object to others? Does hearing this take away your joyful memories? (personally, I hope it does, because that guilt will forward protect you)

I sense a good person inside of you, trying to find some way to make her mis-deeds less horrible .... because you cannot bear to accept that the pretty love A-thing was poisonous to another human being.

It was. Does this bother you? Or does your compassion stop at a certain age level? Only feeling regret and compassion for hurting children.... don't you think that's strange?

Yes, some of your deeds were horrible Sungirl, and some were not, but YOU are NOT horrible. If you accept your past as an un-pretty experience for the family, you become humbled and sincrely regretful.

This is not really you, is it Sungirl?.... "I had a great time in my A while it lasted. I know other's got hurt by my choices, but I can't help that. I'm just sorry there were kids involved. Other people make bad choices too .... what about their bad choices? Are mine worse than theirs?" <---- edited to say this is not a Sungirl quote.

My worry for you, Sungirl, is that in your attempts to de-ugly the A .... you weaken your chances of a wonderful future relationship, a true marriage.

Judging affairs to be wrong and hurtful will protect yourself and others. It's OK to judge affairs to be wrong without comparring affairs to child abuse.

Sit with yourself and make strong convictions you will be able to take proudly with you into the next decade of your life.

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

I feel like my life has been a several-year long course in the lessons of forgiveness. I had no idea what that meant when xBF betrayed me. As one of my favorite authors wrote: "If you don't have something really big to forgive, how on earth do you think you can learn the lesson?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true. I agree with your thoughts here.

And, apply the same principle to self-forgiveness.

You will never fully forgive yourself until you have realized the full depth of your responsibility for having brought hurt to others.

This is why we struggle Sungirl . Me too. Not just you.

I am not free of my own sins until I have fully named them and brought them before my conscience and before God.

Pep

Hey, Sungirl, don't leave, okay? I like what you have to say.

I also like what Pepperband has to say to you.

Melody, err, well, I like what you say in general, but I have this sense that you're reading more into Sungirl's posts than is actually there. I have again and again had the sense that you're reacting to... I don't know, it's almost like you're reacting to an argument that you think ought to be there, or one that you're having with yourself or something. All of which is interesting to read, but I do see why Sungirl's feeling a bit picked-on.

Me, I'm just going to keep thinking about my own sins and how to make amends. It's better than thinking about WP's sins. I can't do anything about those, after all, and I CAN do something about my own. And like Pepper noted, I've got this fricking HUGE beam in my eye and it's sorta clouding my vision. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

I have worked the steps and have admitted my WRONGdoings. I think infidelity is a horribly hurtful act.

~~~~~

I agree. it hurts everyone.

~~~~~

I was the betrayed and felt that pain, and when I was OW I was aware, deeply aware, of the pain his wife would feel if she found out.

~~~~~

One betrayal was not enough for you to learn that this was not a path you should choose? Why do you think that is so, for you as an individual Sungirl? Is there a personality quirk you have that makes you challenge what you already are "deeply aware" to be true?

~~~~~

My point in other threads is that knowledge of that pain was not enough to sever the emotional bond I had with MM 0- EVEN THOUGH I had experienced it myself.

~~~~~

Again, why not? Not in a general philosophical sense, but on a very deep and personal level Sungirl. Why do you crash against the same wall more than once? Getting one broken heart was not enough? Why?

And, even more importantly, how can you trust your future choices ... knowing you may once again drive into the same wall ... knowing there is nothing but a world of hurt in front of you? (rhetorical)

~~~~~

I was in 12 step, I was in therapy, I went to healers, I worked worked worked on myself to the point of exhaustion to gain the strength to leave him and nothing gave me that inner strength to cut him off while he still wanted me in his life so badly.

~~~~~

Please elaborate.

"Gain the strength"... to do what you already know is the morally correct choice? ... or did you make a choice on morals at all? Was your choice emotional or moral .... in the end?

~~~~

For me it took time. It took deepening my relationship with God. It took feeling the love and compassion of others and building a temple of SELF LOVE to be able to separate myself from him.

~~~~~

Amen. How did your temple of self-love get so low in the first place?

You may want to ask yourself how you got separated from yourself in the first place !!! (It doesn't *just happen*)

~~~~~

It helped, of course, that I did not only see his good side, and seeing how he refused to take responsibility for his own actions aided me in convincing myself he'd be a terrible longterm partner. I employed any means necessary to get the will and the strength to leave that man, and make no bones about it. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. It was harder than getting over my betrayal because at least my X was with another woman and I could tell myself every day he didn't want me. MM wanted me every day, even up to and including when he found out he was getting divorced. I have no words here to describe just how hard that was.

~~~~

In the final analysis , none of MM's faults or his strengths matter. His attributes or lack of attributes never can adequately provide explaination and understanding about yourself and your motives.

~~~~

I have not had contact with him for almost a year and I am happy for that. I am happy I am no longer in a relationship that causes so much pain to so many people.

~~~~

I'm happy for you too. Just imagine the level of pain you'd be feeling, the estrangement from God, the loss of self .... it's intolerable.

~~~~

But because I have been on both sides, and because of the spiritual teachings I have incorporated into my life, I simply do not join the crowd in passing judgement - to the infidel, the child beater, the pedophile. Yes, I believe hurtful acts should be stopped. I am simply saying that I personally am letting all the bandwagons of people gleeful in their condemnation pass me by.

~~~~

Failure to judge wrongful acts to be wrong .... is what got you into the affair.

~~~~

I'm happy that way. I like who I am at night.

Peace to everyone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes .... peace to you.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

One thing I would like to add here is that sometimes it is, in my very humble opinion, difficult to decide what's right and what's wrong.

I know I struggle with what's right and what's wrong, and it sometimes takes me a VERY VERY long time to come to a conclusion about it. Probably a good bit longer than it should, but societal boundaries and norms have meant less for me than they have for many other people, so I have had to figure out on my own which ones are important and which are not.

There are many other people in this world who are struggling through those same things. Is it right to judge them because they're not as far along as we are, or have come to different conclusions? There are literally hundreds of issues that divide people: Racial equality, separation of Church and State, equal rights for women, abortion, the death penalty, environmental issues, legalization of marijuana, gay and lesbian issues, the speed limit, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc.

One thing I won't judge harshly is the honest effort to -think- about these issues in a considered, rational way. I can respectfully disagree with people on all of the above issues, so long as they can provide reasoned, rational viewpoints.

It seems to me that Sungirl is in that process, as many of us are. Pep, I think you're doing a great job of being thought-provoking, and I also would invite you to give some appreciation to the fact that Sungirl IS thinking about it. I know I appreciate the insights into her journey; they've made me re-evaluate my own quite thoroughly in the past couple of days.

Wow pepperband and J. With responses like this, no, I won't "run away". My intention was never to run away. I felt like I was having an exchange with someone who spoke a different language than I do. No matter how many times I re-stated my ideas and thoughts and experiences in the language I know how to speak, I was elliciting responses that seemed not to be related to my posts. I don't know if that makes sense, but I was leaving because there was no more fruit to bear in this dialogue.

Pepperband, you asked me many deep questions. They are excellent questions. They are not new questions for me, because these are the exact questions I have asked myself and have done so much work, and I mean so much work, answering for myself.

I haven't run from myself. I don't think I would be here - and continue to come back - if I was the kind of person who runs from herself. It's a tough crowd, you know?

Pepperband, I could sit here and tell you all about my childhood, but I won't. I will tell you, however, that I recreated in adulthood all of my childhood dynamics regarding love. I come from a very abusive family, etc. etc. Today I DO know why I fell in love with the men I've fallen in love with, and hopefully I've done enough work to change that pattern. In the end, my xBF - who I had lived with for 10 years, was building a house with and discussing children so nobody thinks I was casually dating him - and MM were very similar. If you saw them they look like opposites. However, they are two men with limited emotional availability.

I know that their own emotional availablity simply mirrored my own. I know it is possible to live with someone for 10 years and be in an emotionally unavailable relationship. Heck, I have married friends who say the same thing. But this is about me.

The betrayal was so excruciatingly painful, as you know, because it uncovered the lid on the dam of denial. I had no idea who "I" was at that time. It was so easy to exist in a relationship without looking deep, deep inside. The relationship and working on the relationship was important, right? Why look at me individually when it was all about US? I didn't think to question why I loved this particular man, why I was comfortable, why I made his needs more important than mine, why I defined myself through his needs, etc.

When the betrayal came, I still could not see ME, because in that pain, I was too busy pointing my finger at him. He and I had gotten sober together a few years before our breakup so thank God I had a few 12 step groups to go to.

There, I was told to keep the focus on me. To look at me. To start to understand ME. I started working a serious, serious program. It helped tremendously. I started to really deepen my relationship with my Higher Power. I had two great sponsors. I went through the steps again and while doing a fourth step (searching and fearless moral inventory), started uncovering things about myself that prompted me to start intensive therapy.

I started to see how this betrayal/breakup was actually a blessing to me. As I came through the pain I started growing in new and different ways I would have not done in my old relationship, etc.

MM and I were regular, normal, people who worked for the same business. We worked together quite well as a team. I was not attracted to him at all, never thought twice about him, ever, was very busy in my own recovery, blah blah blah.

Without posting the details, after working on a project together on which we spent lots and lots of time together, he came after me very hard. I told him no. I made it clear, no. That seemed to incite him to come after me harder. At the time I didn't know the things I know now. I had just been through betrayal. I had just suffered at the hands of a cheater. I did not EVER see myself as the OW. EVER. NEVER.

To cut to the chase, I started to develop "these feelings" for him. They took me totally by surprise. I tried to ignore them which I NOW know was my biggest mistake. Had I known then what I know now, I would have paid very close attention to those feelings. I pretended I had no feelings for him because he was married and I was not going to be the OW. So I just pushed myself into a new state of denial. I acted as if I was "better than that" and "in control" and "healed" and "moral" and "strong" when inside I was actually being overcome by an intense attraction to him.

You ask if I made moral decisions. I did. I made a moral decision to stay away from him. But the real truth is that I was pretending. I was so hell bent on being a good person that I lost my own honesty TO MYSELF.

See, it was WRONG in my own eyes to have feelings for this man. It was BAD and DEPRAVED to have feelings for him. I was the GOOD one. My xBF was the BAD one.

Well, I lost that battle, as you know.

How could I do it? I don't have the time right now to finish this post, but I still don't feel like the language I speak about affairs is welcome or heard here, and I don't expect it to be.

My intent from the start was not to get involved and as soon as I did get involved my intent was to leave. I posted that. It took time. I could not use any acts of sheer will to stop my feelings for him, and when I tried to go No Contact I felt like I was going to die. I took that to therapy and we worked very hard on my father issues, always assuming that this man was a sort of "ersatz" for my father.

It was in healing MYSELF, as I posted, through the rigorous work in 12 step, therapy, and learning self-love, that I was able to let go and leave him.

That's all for now. If you have more specific questions I will be happy to answer them.

-Sungirl

Originally posted by Just J:
One thing I would like to add here is that sometimes it is, in my very humble opinion, difficult to decide what's right and what's wrong.

~~~~

What do you personally use for criteria?

~~~~

I know I struggle with what's right and what's wrong, and it sometimes takes me a VERY VERY long time to come to a conclusion about it. Probably a good bit longer than it should, but societal boundaries and norms have meant less for me than they have for many other people, so I have had to figure out on my own which ones are important and which are not.

~~~~

Our struggle is at once as an individual and as a member of a group or society at large. I doubt there is an end point for any of us.

~~~~

There are many other people in this world who are struggling through those same things. Is it right to judge them because they're not as far along as we are, or have come to different conclusions?

~~~~

I don't know if it is ever right to judge the inherent goodness of someone .... probably not. All lives have value. I am reminded of that film .... "Dead Man Walking". Did you see that movie ? Amazingly challenging film to process. But if we do not judge the goodness of behaviors, we're in serious trouble. Chaos and madness.

~~~~

There are literally hundreds of issues that divide people: Racial equality, separation of Church and State, equal rights for women, abortion, the death penalty, environmental issues, legalization of marijuana, gay and lesbian issues, the speed limit, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc.

~~~~

yup (except for the speed limit .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

~~~~

One thing I won't judge harshly is the honest effort to -think- about these issues in a considered, rational way. I can respectfully disagree with people on all of the above issues, so long as they can provide reasoned, rational viewpoints.

~~~~

Sometimes hurt makes people irrational. It's difficult to speak reasonably when trying to stop gushing blood from an open wound.

~~~~

It seems to me that Sungirl is in that process, as many of us are.

~~~~

I totally agree. Sungirl is making her way as best she can. She has been hurt. She has inflicted hurt. Both need to be examined and processed. Her past is not irrelevant to who she is today .... and she has future choices that can be a gift to the world, and to herself.

~~~~

Pep, I think you're doing a great job of being thought-provoking, and I also would invite you to give some appreciation to the fact that Sungirl IS thinking about it. I know I appreciate the insights into her journey; they've made me re-evaluate my own quite thoroughly in the past couple of days.

~~~~

Know what, I really do think that an unmarried / never married OW carries tremendous and worrisome baggage with them .... much more so than a married person who cheats. Much more so than an un-married man who cheats.

Many single OW delay marriage in order to stay with MM. One single OW with whom I used to discuss affairs... stayed with MM 15 years .... waiting, waiting .... she constructed an extraordinary wall of self-delusion and other-responsibility for her plight. Her life, her child-rearing years, wasted. Her only available resource to deal with her situation was her anger and her jealousy. Amazing psychology at work.

Sungirl is doing something different. She is taking her inventory. I recognize that. Sungirl will someday be making other choices. I cannot find a better way of saying this ----> Sungirl still retains some ways of thinking like an OW. I hope she eventually stops defending her emotionally made mistakes from the past and holds herself to a higher standard. Her inner resources for defending herself from future mistakes cannot be made while she's holding an emotional gun to her head.

If she realizes that following her inner emotional voice led her to this destruction, she needs to construct a more rock-solid moral compass with which she conducts her life. For her sake and happiness.

For some time, she should not trust her emotional decisions.

I hate to read Sungirl saying she is not going to make judgements about people's behavior .... I think she needs to learn how to make moral judgements, and feel good about it. Not to say she cannot love the sinner as a fellow human being .... once again, watch "Dead Man Walking" .... the depth of compassion is amazing .... but the acceptance of the sin being wrong was absolute.

But, that is only my opinion .... and Sungirl may be ever so much more eloquent in her moral choices than perhaps I have been able to appreciate.... I do appreciate her as a lovely young woman who has wasted her gifts of love twice on undeserving partners.

SUNGIRL .... I love you. You are my sister. I care what happends to you.

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepperband - I just had an epihany on my way to work. (yes work)

I know why I am so hesitant to judge. I get it.

Because I was so damned judgemental. Because I judged so absolutely and so harshly, and in doing that, I elevated myself above the status of "fallible human being" or "woman just as capable of _____ as anyone else." And that's where I entered the realm of self-delusion.

I judged my xBF so harshly. I judged OW. I judged all of it. So when I felt my attraction to MM, I hid from it because, oh Lord, nope, that's not me, I cannot be attracted to a married man. Only THEY are capable of that.

So maybe for me, staying away from judgement - FOR NOW - is my way of staying honest with myself. I hid in a very dishonest way behind my judgement.

Does that make sense?

I am in the process of finding a balance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:
However, they are two men with limited emotional availability.

I know that their own emotional availablity simply mirrored my own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, at least you found your starting point. Which parent do they represent?

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS .... good job!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sungirl:

I am in the process of finding a balance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS is the smartest thing you've said so far .....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Me too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> balance is essential for a healthy life.

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepperband - thank you for the love. This is the language that speaks to me. This is the heart felt dialogue to which I want to respond and open up and explore. I really do. So thank you for offering it.

I want to explain one more thing.

I had experienced betrayal. I was one of you. The pain of that was not foreign or abstract. It was real.

So having experienced that, how could I become an OW?

This is where I am going to get in trouble here. But you are asking me to open up and I want to do it.

MM and I were on the same wavelength about everything. We worked together like two peices of a puzzle. If he needed something I had just thought of it and had already gotten it. At meetings we had the same agendas penciled on our papers. We almost finished each others sentences. We shared common interests. We talked as if we both had known each other since childhood. We had the same sense of humor.

We certainly did not agree about everything, but as the years of working together had thrown us into some pretty stressful situations, we also knew how to scream or throw tantrums or blow up and get over it.

I am leaving out the deeper details because I respect where I am. I hope this wasn't too much to post.

It was no causal flirt I felt all fluttery about and decided to give a roll in the hay. He affected me more deeply than any man I had ever known. It was like this for months and months before I finally did act on my feelings.

So how could such a moral, judgemental person cross that line? This is the part I will not be able to explain.

I will say it. Then question me.

Because once I did, it felt like it was the most natural thing in the world. I could not hold up my walls of right/wrong against the feelings I had. I tried for so long and finally it felt like these feelings overpowered any and all mental barriers I had erected and I gave in to them.

You know the rest.