TMD,

As painful as it was to read your posts, I must say I saw a ring of truthful confusion. What you wrote was similar to what I heard from a WS not too long ago.

From that time until now, that WS almost lost his family over 2000 miles away. In his case, the OW was trying her best to incite the BS to kick the WS out. The BS did not know the whole story but enough to know the antics of the OW and the struggle of the WS.

See the BS could see some progress but she was getting real tired of the charade. What the BS did not see was that the subsequent interludes between the OW and WS were not 'romantic'. Even though the OW wrote that the last meeting in the spring was the 'best in 3 years.' Hm..... in reality, it wasn't. The WS no longer had all the lust for the OW when face to face. Instead, he started to see the face of his W and child.

Where does that leave the Ws and BS? I know where they are. Where are you?

L.

Ok, I''m going to weigh in here, with the risk of getting my head shot off, but....here goes - I own what I say..you are all welcome to your own opinion about what I say.

I have a lot of thoughts and they may not come out exactly the way I have been formulating them in my head (in fact, my head has now gone blank) so, I will just try my best.

First off, I know that what TMD posted here deeply offends many BS, who, while reading, will remember the pain and suffering they have all experienced - they can't help but identify with TMD's wife and be outraged on her behalf. I understand that - I'm a BS, too.

But, TMD, I am going to say to you that, despite what happened that Sunday night, I am going to commend you for the one thing you did, and are doing, which is the bedrock for your recovery. And that is your truthfulness. You went into the situation with your eyes wide open for once, instead of with your eyes wide shut, and you finally saw the truth staring you in the face, when you were lying in the arms of the OW.

(Go ahead and hit me, MB's - and I would like to say to all of you who are disgusted with TMD's actions, and letting him know it, that he has given all of you BS an enormous privilege here - he has let you inside the hotel room, and let you witness Dr. Harley's principles in action - how many of you all have handed out the advice to a traumatized BS that they have to let the WS actually BE with the OP, AS MUCH AS IT TAKES, in order for the WS to finally come face to face with the REAL consequences of their choices in life. And yet, you lay into TMD with a 2X6 when he does just that, but this time with his eyes open, thanks in no small part to the time he has spent here, and is honest about it. I respectfully suggest that you MB's need some practice yourselves in "creating a safe place" for a WS. Your posts are full of "angry outbursts" and seriously "disrespectful judgements" in the face of TMD's honesty. I would also add that no person on this board has any reason or justification for feeling "betrayed". TMD has no obligation to any of us. Those of us who choose to come here are not self-appointed Marriage Police, unless we choose to take on that role, which is not generally a helpful one.)

Personally, I don't see a selfish man here any more - I see a man who has finally had the scales fall from his eyes, and it took being in the arms of the other woman for that to happen. It took leaving his wife behind, with her hard shell finally cracked and crying for that to happen.

Yesterday, I was book-shopping for a psychology books to do with some ongoing problems I have with one of my sons. While cruising the shelves, my eye fell on "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck. I know that many of you MB's will know this book. He talks about evil in this book and how it manifests in some people. I read it many many years ago - for some reason, I bought it and skimmed through it over my lunch. I read the chapter called "Charlene - a teaching case" - very illuminating. He makes the point that evil spreads a miasma of confusion around itself - and at the heart of evil are lies. I was attracted to TMD's thread in the first place, because of the paralells between his marriage and mine. In my case, I believe my H married me even though he was emotionally committed to someone else (a married woman many years older than himself). Even though I questioned my H about his R with her, he never admitted to her being more than a friend. Since we are all Christians, their affection for each other was always overlaid with "God's love" - for me an even more profound betrayal of my trust. My point in bringing this up is that in my own life, I have experienced and continue to experience the doubt and confusion which permeate a life where truth is not told, truth is withheld, for WHATEVER reason. When the truth is not told, withholding the truth becomes a way of life, an invisible corrosion, like a systemic disease, which takes place on the inside of the person, and comes to affect ultimately the whole way he approaches life and the people who come into contact with him.

When I first posted to TMD, I saw this in his posts - the persistant clinging to what are essentially "lies" - the fantasy of romance - the fantasy that the OP was "perfect" for him - the fantasy that his wife could never equal the OW - the fantasy that it would be better for his son for him to break up the family - the fantasy that he was actually being honest by declaring these feelings to be true.

I don't see that now. I see a person who has turned a corner in himself (albeit it took a very painful and cathartic experience) and grasped the nettle of truthfulness. From this small mustard seed, a great tree can grow.

The personal commitment to truthfulness as a way of life is the beginning of the recovery of your own integrity as a person. Right now, you are a broken man, and you may feel that all you have to offer your wife is a broken man. You think your heart is broken. I think your heart is not broken. Your heart will be healed by truthfulness. I see hope.

I see hope in two things you posted. Number one - before you went out that night, you said your wife broke down and cried. You said you wanted to comfort her but you didn't dare, but you wanted to. This is another mustard seed. In this kernel is the beginning of the care and compassion that you need to be able to give your wife, if you are to be able to be a good husband to her. The fact that you feel it means it can grow. I wish you had said "I want to hold you, but I am afraid that you don't want me to." Maybe you will get another chance to say this. You have also stated repeatedly that your wife reacts to you with anger and is "hard and unfeeling" - and used her reactions to justify your own behaviour. I think you were fortunate to see in that moment, the true state of her feelings - inside she is crying her heart out - she can't show it to you because you have rejected her so profoundly - anger is her shield against the sorrow she feels. Underneath the sorrow is the love she feels for you, once felt for you. I hope that being able to see her crying for you will help you to realize that she still has love for you. People don't cry over people they no longer love.

Like Bramble Rose said, your wife is so angry, you cannot expect her to "give you a safe place" right now. You are just going to have to take it for now. But through it all - be truthful, and do not withhold anything from her when she asks. Withholding is more corrosive in the end, and causes more damage in the long run.

The other thing is - you said you give her your cellphone now. This is the other mustard seed. If your wife were through with you, she would not bother with wanting your cell phone. She would wash her hands of you. She would have kicked you out. Instead, she is actively participating in your new life of being accountable to her. (Remember that she is also accountable to you).

TMD - you have started this process. I see that you now have a chance to be the person you want to be, and I believe that you have a chance to rebuild your marriage, one slow and painful step at a time. Remember what you said? Actions.

You once compared yourself to my H - please - you have been 10 times more honest with your wife than my H has ever been with me. I predict that from now on, if you can retain your commitment to truthfulness in the face of all challenges, you will now make swifter progress on the path you have chosen.

OK, I'm done now.

LIR

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

TMD:

"2Long - The lyrics were mine... they're about my wife and my marriage and this mess and it's my way of getting through all of this. Call it drama or what-have-you. It tells a story that is real. It's music and it's a way of life for me. Music is art and art is often dramatic in content... so lay off."

No, I won't lay off. I realize that you're an artist. I think many of us would describe ourselves with that term. Many people here are in the film industry. They participate in drama for the screen. Do they live it? Is it them? I'm a scientist, and I believe that a lot of what I do is artful. Heck, I get told that all the time. But is it ME? It's an expression of what I feeling and thinking right now. It's my career. But is it me? It feeds my family, pays my bills. But is it me?

I learned something I thought I already knew after "getting over" my W's A, and that is that my job, though important, and a means of expressing myself, is nowhere near as important as my spiri2al well-being and my relationships with my family.

"Call it drama or what-have-you. It tells a story that is real. "

It's drama. It's "what-have-you". It tells a story that is a twisted, confused fantasy. It isn't real, except that the effects it has on people that don't deserve them ARE real. Having said that, the song you wrote is still art. Should you wrap your whole life around it? That's up 2 you.

My heart pumps peanut butter for you, TMD. I still meant what I said in my earlier posts. My main concern for you is that while you're pulling your head out of your behind, what is your W doing? Does she have the patience 2 wait for you? I bet she does, but I may be wrong. I sure know how much it hurts 2 be patient. But thankfully I also know how rewarding it has been. And necessary. But these kinds of sitches really try people's patience. I hope there's enough out there for you.

I like this song, 2. It's very dramatic. I think it's art. Would I want 2 live it? Heck, no.

"in my rear view mirror the sun is going down, sinking behind bridges in the road.
And I think of all the good things that we have left undone.
And I suffer premonitions, confirmed suspicions of the holocaust to come.

The rusty wire that holds the cork and keeps the anger in
Gives way and suddenly it's day again.
The sun is in the east even though the day is done.
Two suns in the sunset, could be the human race is run.

Like the moment when the brakes lock and you slide toward the big truck.
And stretch the frozen moments with your fear.
And you'll never hear their voices and you'll never see their faces.
You have no recourse to the law anymore.

And as the windshield melts and my tears evaporate
Leaving only charcoal to defend.
Finally I understand the feelings of the few
Ashes and diamonds, foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"

"Two Suns in the Sunset" -Pink Floyd

-kid 2long

Well, while emotions are being thrown around here, I am gonna say that I posted to TMD and got NO response. Is that how his W is being treated? Hope not.

TMD, I think some of us know how you are acting and feeling more than you realize. See, we live with some of your attitudes. It is evident in some of our spouses.

At some point we may be speaking for your W who right now probably doesn't feel real safe sharing her thoughts. She is basically hurt beyond words and her healing time needs to come soon.

So don't expect to be catered to until you are safely recovered. Healing goes both ways. You both are going to have to help each other. It needs to be a known thing not assumed nor a guess. The attention and help you give to each other should be given without hinderance. It s/b given out of love, care and concern.

So you don't have lovey dovey feelings now, ok but you do have care and compassion? Show that.

JMHO, gonna go sulk in the MB corner until someone pays attention to me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Well, while emotions are being thrown around here, I am gonna say that I posted to TMD and got NO response. Is that how his W is being treated? Hope not.

TMD, I think some of us know how you are acting and feeling more than you realize. See, we live with some of your attitudes. It is evident in some of our spouses.

At some point we may be speaking for your W who right now probably doesn't feel real safe sharing her thoughts. She is basically hurt beyond words and her healing time needs to come soon.

So don't expect to be catered to until you are safely recovered. Healing goes both ways. You both are going to have to help each other. It needs to be a known thing not assumed nor a guess. The attention and help you give to each other should be given without hinderance. It s/b given out of love, care and concern.

So you don't have lovey dovey feelings now, ok but you do have care and compassion? Show that.

JMHO, gonna go sulk in the MB corner until someone pays attention to me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Orchid. I was too busy licking my wounds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
See the BS could see some progress but she was getting real tired of the charade. What the BS did not see was that the subsequent interludes between the OW and WS were not 'romantic'. Even though the OW wrote that the last meeting in the spring was the 'best in 3 years.' Hm..... in reality, it wasn't. The WS no longer had all the lust for the OW when face to face. Instead, he started to see the face of his W and child.

Where does that leave the Ws and BS? I know where they are. Where are you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm unwilling to chalk the whole A up to lust for the OW. I am willing to say that though I have and do love this OW and probably, in some ways, always will, I came to understand that no matter how much I wanted to believe that this was right... I knew that the pursuit of that love is simply wrong. Why? Well... because my love over the years for my wife and child has a foundation that consists of the stuff of life. Real life. The stuff that matters more than me.

So though I didn't exactly see the faces of my W and S while making love to the OW... I did feel their pain where before I could push that aside with some effort. That's why I told the OW that loving this way only "hurts and destroys - and THAT's not love"

I have a long road ahead of me. I know that. I'm at a place where I want to work things out with my W and I want to talk to the OW. That, in and of itself, is a new development. I'm open to the changes and accept them at face value. So I'm talking to my wife now... openly. I may ask her for a hug before the week is out. The desire to do so is there sometimes. That's new. That's a good thing I guess.

I'm overcoming the fog by removing those routines I'd established while away from home that kept me connected to the OW even while apart. That has been hard... and I'm still fighting some of it... but it hasn't been near the struggle it was even 10 days ago.

I'm not going to write the NC letter for a couple reasons.

The first one is that my W knows my feelings are real, or that I believe my feelings are real, and that statements in the NC would, at this point be laughable from her point of view. They would certainly offer no comfort to her.

Secondly - When I said goodbye to the OW. I told her she couldn't fix her marriage with me in the picture and that over time, as she knows, I will become a powerless memory. So right now... it's been 8 days for me... but it's been 8 days for her too. Not fair to restart her clock.

So where am I? I'm at the actions stage. I'm trying to live it with honesty. That means that my wife and I must take it slow and I must be demonstrably vigilent in building faith and dedication to the idea of recovery... Then ultimately to recovery itself.

-TMD

TMD:

"I'm at a place where I want to work things out with my W and I want to talk to the OW. That, in and of itself, is a new development. "

Right, it is. But the fundamental surge in progress won't occur until you can cut the OW out of your life cold turkey. Weening won't work. Because the fact is that your W will always know that you've still got the OW "in the wings" until you've not only done this, but sufficient time has passed that she can believe it. ...and you can believe it, 2.

-kid 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>TMD:

"I'm at a place where I want to work things out with my W and I want to talk to the OW. That, in and of itself, is a new development. "

Right, it is. But the fundamental surge in progress won't occur until you can cut the OW out of your life cold turkey. Weening won't work. Because the fact is that your W will always know that you've still got the OW "in the wings" until you've not only done this, but sufficient time has passed that she can believe it. ...and you can believe it, 2.

-kid 2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long -

I'm in absolute agreement... I was just saying... honestly... where I am right now in all of this... It doesn't mean I'm going to talk to her... It just means I want to. Even the results of "cold turkey" take time to set in.

Thanks 2Long -

- TMD

TMD:

Yes, the results do take time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I agree with this from personal experience (almost 21 months since D-day for me).

And I am willing 2 give my W more time, because I had "calmed my own reactions down" enough starting this year that I was able finally 2 see the progress my W has been making back 2 our M. With each passing day, I feel better about our chances, even though nagging uncertainties remain. I don't KNOW they have gotten 2 NC, though I do believe that the relationship is "not what either of them want anymore" (their words).

I think I've become a pretty patient man. I would never have believed I could be as patient as I have been for so long, when all this started. But here I am. This is what I'm alluding 2 in regard 2 your sitch. You and your W 2th have choices you can make. Timing should perhaps not be an issue, but it usually is for most of us.

Take care,
-kid 2long

TMD,

Thanks for responding to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'd say you are making strides, maybe not at the speed others would like to see (even including your W) but progress none the less.

U C, your thought process is a lot like what my H went through. When he finally realized he needed to make a complete break, it almost cost him his santity. I can't go into to it right now but this whole A thing is just in the beginning stages of some legal work and I sure would not wish that on anyone else. U C what I am trying hard to save you from? Don't tell me that would not happen to you. H told me the same thing but my instincts were right.

Though I did not have an R with this nutty OW, I did predict her stunts better than he did. I certainly hope your Ow isn't as nutty but you never know.

Pay attention to your W's thought process. She may be more keen on what you need to do and watch for than you do. If you trust her, then show that trust. She will love you for it. In turn your love for her will grow.

I am not going to ask you to love your W. That will take time. I am asking you work towards restoring the trust in your M.

Deal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok I believe I am over my anger enough to post to you...which is really just way over the top immature on my part...

I think I am spending a little to much time here..but not to worry as candycorn will soon become the object of my affection.

TMD I think Orchid is right on in speaking to you about your wife's pain..and not in some lets beat up you fashion...but she needs a voice perhaps a little different and deeper than what she is able to come up with right now...

Your actions...the going to be with other woman...I could care less about that....that's the easiest thing to do...
easy easy easy....escape for a bit...
It's easy to fall right back in to the trap of making it some cosmic enounter of great depth...but it is what it is...
only a reflection and shadow of true depth of nuturing and love...
and it sells each of you short...
what you expect to build you up..and may even feel as if it is..
is really what hurts your souls...

And i must say there is value if within this last encounter you saw through some of the feel good stuff and saw a glimpse of what is lacking with this relationship...not just coated and covered up...

BUT what really burns me...what I react strongly to is your lack of protection afforded your wife of your actions...

And that with this encounter and your glimmer of reality in the the parts lacking in the relationship with the OW...
that you still didn't protect her...

marriage is all about protecting eachother...
and though it is unfortunate and not right that it is you that she needs protected from...
you didn't do it...

and even though this issue goes against honesty and radical truth...I am disheartened by your lack of protection for her...for I think especially with you new revelation..no matter how new in forming in your mind...you should have ferociously protected her...

why why why why am I telling you this..
i don't know..honestly don't know...

not to beat you up...but perhaps to say to you that while you feel you are gaining wisdom from what your experienced or failed to experience...(the ability to make it right or fix things whne in the presence of the O)...you also need to gleam and learn other things....

As much as you can see yourself emotionally turning and tossing ....and suffering...
I see your wife's pain even more..
for her's exists within a vacuum..

she has no one like to turn to...
she has no one to be her friend in this..
she has no one to go to work through these feelings...
how isolated she must feel...

and i don't know if you two are intimate right now/recently through all this...yes/no I don't know...but she has no one to turn to and your escape to the OW...just magnifies her vacuum even more...
because she has no one...

how lonely and isolated she must feel...

TMD the lack of fullfillment with your OW encounter does not suprise me...you could of just asked me and i would have told you that...

I hope that as you chew and mull over the lesson you learning now...you reach out and share in small ways with your wife as well..what you are learning...

she says she is hurt because in all of this you love the OW...and you do nothing to dispell that...even though the seed in there...
sometimes love isn't enough...
and sometimes what we think is this deep love...is just a reflection...

perhaps I am boldly speaking for your wife..perhaps not...I don't know...

but Orchid is right on this...
she deserves to heard
and she has a voice

ARK

OK ARK - I'm going to play dumber... since my wife has already established how dumb I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She contests that women are considerably smarter than men. Maybe so.

So on to your thoughts...

How would I have protected her from this latest transgression? Besides the obvious one which is moot at this point. I can't lie. I'm bad at it. Hell... I'm hard pressed to effectively lie by omission. I was gone over night... I was in the car when I called her the next morning and she'd looked through my stuff in the basement when I didn't come home. She figured it out. Am I dense beyond all previous suspicion or are you telling me I should have taken the care to concoct a believeable cover for the sake of my wife's increasing isolation?

Don't take that as snide... please... I'm honestly just looking for clarification on that.

There has been no physical contact whatsoever since... a least a month prior to first contact with OW in March of this year.

Last night we worked together on the remodeling of the master bath. The time together brought a few smiles to our faces.. I teased her on her use of a cordless screwdriver... she still throws in the jabs at every opportunity... but they don't have the sting they once did.

I'm seeing her pain too. I was talking about Job opportunities with her last night... on top of all this madness, the company I work for is on the verge of liquidation. So I'm looking at the possibility of a career change and was discussing that with her when she started tearing up. I was telling her what irons were in the fire as far as new jobs. Any opp right now requires travel. She didn't like that at all. I assured her that if something comes along that doesn't require it, I'll take it... but I said... I wouldn't mind the quarterly travel required by the one opp.

When she started crying I asked why. She wouldn't answer. I said is it this specific topic or is it everything overwhelming you? She nodded to the everything part.

I don't know If I'm making any ground ARK. There are plenty of reasons why I shouldn't. 10 days ago I reinforced that. I just have to be honest as I go along... Maybe I haven't done such damage as to have permanently removed hope. Maybe I have.

I'm in it now with no expectations of her. I know better now. I also know that I have trained her now to expect me to cheat again and again.

It's all going to take time on both sides. Just have to pray there's enough time left.

-TMD

TMD:

I can tell you, from personal experience again, that when my W decided 2 quit the new job she'd started that required her 2 be away as often as she would be home, I was very relieved. She even saw RM on the 2nd trip, because the new company didn't know their his2ry and because her field is very small - he works on the same stuff she does. I let her go, knowing she was going 2 see him, for 2 reasons. Number A: because I couldn't tell her what 2 do; and Letter 2: because she needed 2 choose. She thought she'd chosen 2 years ago, but she hadn't, because she was still in contact with him and they were affecting each other's lives still.

Anyway, I'm guessing here, but since I've been in that exact si2ation - remodeling a bathroom 2gether while she was planning her next trip 2 RM's home state - I'm betting your W was "overwhelmed" by the powerlessness that one feels in that kind of si2ation. You have 2 be able 2 set the WS free. You can only HOPE that they'll come back. Each time it happens, your patience gets tried again. You hope that the WS "learns something" about themselves each time, but you can't expect anything. And the longer it takes, the harder it is 2 hold on2 the hope.

"I'm in it now with no expectations of her. I know better now. I also know that I have trained her now to expect me to cheat again and again."

Yes, but all along you've had the oppor2nity 2 start "training her" 2 expect you 2 be faithful. You can only train her 2 do this by being faithful for an extended period of time, like maybe the rest of your life... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

♣kid 2long

TMD, As much as I disliked the path you took, I am happy that your journey has led you back "home". (Both physically and emotionally) I am glad that I stuck around to see you get to this point.

Your W definitely is overwhelmed with emotions right now, but you have finally given her what she needed most from you - to hear you say that SHE is who you want to be with, not OW. Does not matter that you may have "love" for the OW - that can be respected as long as you make damn sure that it stays in it's proper place and never EVER again overpowers the LOVE that you have for you W.

I understand ARK's reasoning about you not protecting your W. You left without telling her you would be gone overnight, you say you left "clues" - that does not indicate care & protection of feelings, it indicates you were taking the easy way out once again. You must stop this if you want to ever have a truly honest relationship with your W again.

The fact that your W is willing to talk it out and is living in the same house as you says alot about what she values and seems to indicate she still wants the M. (And the fact that she used power tools near you and did not use them ON YOU says alot too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

It's great that you are talking again. It gets emotionally draining, I know, but don't give up or get impatient. She needs to hear your honesty. It's a long, slow process, but it can be done.

I have said it is like learning to dance -
many false starts...
some toes get stepped on...
but if you do it right, you will be moving together like never before.

Keep dancing TMD, just keep dancing.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take Care,
Shelle

Thanks Shelle - For the thoughts and for the clarification.

My wife called me at work last night, almost immediately after i'd posted the power tools post, and said something that was a bit suprising.

She said she called because she missed me. Skeptical as I am in that regard... I waited... then she paused and said that that was sad... because that man is gone for good.

We had a long talk again... as we always do over the phone... I kept coming back to the "missed me" part.. and she would laugh at that.

This past week has been a great strain for me and I ackowledged to her that for her the pain is many times greater than my own and I also acknowledged that though that is likely very true that the thought was inconceivable to me.

Honesty.

Shelle.. we're not close enough to step on toes yet... I did tell her on the phone that I had the desire to comfort her recently and that that suprised me considering the vacancy of those feelings over the past months. I told her there is hope in that. She seemed standoffish and receptive at the same time to that thought... i.e. she joked about the possibility of kneeing me in the groin then said she wouldn't actually do that to me.... she didn't think... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

anyway... it is what it is... right now as I type this... I feel kinda sick to my stomach... an emotional sick... There is still so much power on the other side of this thing.

DAMN! it just occurred to me that I forgot my ZOLOFT this morning. BRB... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Whew! LOL

OK... I was wondering why I was feeling so depressed this morning... The zoloft is odd... almost placebo... I'm still very depressed... but I can act otherwise without much effort. kinda wierd.

anywho.

yeah... the power on the other side.... strong it is... given into it you have... but do or do not... there is no try.

Yoda... my hero... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

hmmmn... It's altogether possible that I'm losing my mind.

I checked my work VM last night before I went to sleep... That's bad... bad... step in the wrong direction... this morning my cell rings and my heart jumps... It was my best friend from childhood all the way through HS. She was there through the early days with the OW... I told her everything early on all these years later...

I explained to her how the separation from OW now feels like I'm being forced to saw my own arm off with a hand saw. Her immediate response was... "yeah but if you don't saw it off, the gangreene will kill you anyway." "Hmmn..." I said.. "Yeah... that's true."

The truth is... I feel dishonest in trying with my W. I actually feel guilt in trying with her when I have such strong feelings elsewhere. It's like no matter what I do now... even when I know it's right... I can't escape guilt. It's really f*d up. I hate it.

I don't think I should share that with my wife... do you?

Just work through it I say... she knows the OW is still in my brain... no secret there. The drugs help me to keep that fact from being so obvious. Just work through it and try to heal. I'm not sure how to accomplish that specifically... that is another unknown to me that is frustrating... my counselor says I need to not require a blueprint... take it one step at a time... OK..

uggh...

I've had better days.

-TMD

TMD

shelle said it better than I..
I guess it is the lack of protection you extended within the transgression...

but it as you say in some ways a moot point...except that it is important to come to understand the layers of hurt our actions can have...easy to to get caught up in the big ones...the obvious act of betrayal...and lose sight of what else it affects...

and it is your leaving behind of clues...as if forcing her hand ...to in some ways alleviate yourself...

wife (she) thinks you are scum...
you might as well act as thus...

that you made no attempt to at anything else...is kind of in your face...
though I am not telling you to lie..so to speak...just see it all the way through...all the ways it affects and hurts...

Not protecting your spouse sucks...
AND

and just wanted to visit that in her mind you "have" the other woman to support you and care about you...mentally and then physically..
to console and commisserate with you...

to even "be" with you...and "escape" from all of this...

You are all she has...

I guess I just thought that you understood that...
and perhaps could see the bigger picture...

If you see the OW again...it would be kinder of you to never go home again...
that is only my opinion....
but visiting that pain again again onto your wife...
ughhhhhhhhh

it's like you and the OW against your wife..
you and the OW against her husband...

these people don't deserve to be treated this way...

they don't deserve..
love is not enough...
never has been never will be....
that should ease the agony of No contact...it should.. if are coming to believe it...
and you can heal and move from that ...

my opinion again...
I don't have even have a song for you...
but feel like finding some Steeley Dan and listening to My Old School...

"But I did not think the girl could be so cruel...and I'm never going back to my old school..."

you know that one???

Okay, TMD, maybe this will help take your mind off the OW for a moment:

You said Yoda is your hero? Well, check out this hilarious article on "The Onion" (and if you're prudish at all, DO NOT look elsewhere on their website! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ):

http://www.theonion.com/onion3829/yodas_penis.html

On 2 real stuff. I think you should share your feelings of guilt with your W. You need HER support and protection (from your own desires 2 be with the OW) just as much as she needs yours. Make it a team effort.

Because the only team that ever mattered is you and your W.

-kid 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>TMD

You are all she has...

I guess I just thought that you understood that...
and perhaps could see the bigger picture...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Cowardice. Plain and simple.
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If you see the OW again...it would be kinder of you to never go home again...
that is only my opinion....
but visiting that pain again again onto your wife...
ughhhhhhhhh

it's like you and the OW against your wife..
you and the OW against her husband...

these people don't deserve to be treated this way...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
I agree with this. I do.
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
they don't deserve..
love is not enough...
never has been never will be....
that should ease the agony of No contact...it should.. if are coming to believe it...
and you can heal and move from that ...

my opinion again...
I don't have even have a song for you...
but feel like finding some Steeley Dan and listening to My Old School...

"But I did not think the girl could be so cruel...and I'm never going back to my old school..."

you know that one???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes... I know that one.

And as far as the agony... It's not agony anymore... That may be because of the drugs... hard telling... It's part of the reason I didn't want to be on them... I don't like the thought that I'm potentially unable to parse my emotions with accuracy. Regardless.... It's not agony... It's just hard at times to get past certain triggers. The OW and I established a set of triggers that has an excruciatingly wide scope. UUggh. I mean... I'm sitting at lunch with the guys from work today and looking out the window I watch as an A4 |OW's wheels| drives into a parking space.. doesn't have to be the same color.... and I'm like... "well [censored]" ...was doing OK up to that point. Just an example... pretty pathetic I know... happens all the time.

Saturated with the poison. Through and through.

I manage to be quite upbeat when I get home though. Life is just weird right now. weird.

-TMD

TMD,
I've been following your story. I really feel sorry for your pain.

I think you can regain your love for your wife but with your constant pining away for your OW it is unlikely anytime soon. I feel sorry for your wife. Does she read what you write here?

You and the OW may need to play it all out and see if the reality matches the fantasy you've been feeding.

Maybe she could get her husband to move out and you could move in with her and her kids.

You could then feel the distance grow in your relationship with your own son.

Depending on their ages, you can experience the
anger and resentment of her children toward you.
You can work out various visitations,child support, and alimony.

My husband moved in with his FOW and her kids. It took about a month before the fantasy bubble burst and he was ready to come home...but I wasn't ready for a couple more months. Early on in his affair he told me that he didn't love me anymore. (He doesn't feel that way now.) Your feelings can change for your wife and your OW, but maybe not until you can truly get her out of your system. How are you going to do that?

Or in another scenerio, you could get a place of your own and she could leave her kids with her husband and you could leave your son with your wife and you could both feel their loss and see how your love survives that.

Your relationship with her is probably doomed to failure. If somehow you worked it out to be together it is so unlikely that you live happily ever after together.

I guess on some level you do know this stuff, that is why you are back home. It is just all the pining and saying that you are lying to yourself or her about not really wanting to regain feelings for your wife and marriage.

You are still prolonging your pain by dwelling on your OW. You are causing yourself and everyone involved more pain than is necessary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 4give:
<strong>TMD,
I've been following your story. I really feel sorry for your pain.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Thank you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I think you can regain your love for your wife but with your constant pining away for your OW it is unlikely anytime soon.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>You say this as if it were a thing I could control. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I feel sorry for your wife. Does she read what you write here?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>No. But she asks what I write here. I tell her. With the exception of my most recent concern over checking my VM. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

You and the OW may need to play it all out and see if the reality matches the fantasy you've been feeding.

Maybe she could get her husband to move out and you could move in with her and her kids.

You could then feel the distance grow in your relationship with your own son.

Depending on their ages, you can experience the
anger and resentment of her children toward you.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>Well... I get your message here. Actually the OW and I had hours of conversations like this. Neither of us was ever convinced that any of the scenarios we imagined would be rosey. Never once. Neither of us wanted to attempt a life together under the shadow of an affair. Ever.

So though I understand your purpose in posting this, I've never been so far gone as to assume anything other than the pain that such a 'reality' would bring. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Your feelings can change for your wife and your OW, but maybe not until you can truly get her out of your system. How are you going to do that?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>Damned good question. The only answer I can come up with is: TIME. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

It is just all the pining and saying that you are lying to yourself or her about not really wanting to regain feelings for your wife and marriage.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>Correction. My guilt stems from trying to fix a marriage when I PRESENTLY have no feelings to support such actions. That sort of behavior feels further disingenuous. It feels wrong. That should in no way imply that I don't want to feel for my wife as I once did. On the contrary. I believe fully that as my feeling for my W returns, there will be an equal diminished feeling for the OW. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

You are still prolonging your pain by dwelling on your OW. You are causing yourself and everyone involved more pain than is necessary.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I know this. I'm very aware of this fact. The reality is that if this were a switch I could simply turn off, I would do it. That however is not a thought that exists within reality. The reality is that this will take time... and I'm not going back to the way it was. Neither is my wife. We either find a path that is acceptable to both of us, or we're done.

My W requires that in order to be able to begin to commit herself to trying with me she needs me to be able to convince her that not only do I NOT love the OW... But that I never did love the OW... Ever...

I understand that this stems from her need to further protect herself from me and the pain she attributes to me. I understand why this is important to be able to move forward for her. It all makes perfect sense.

I can't fathom saying those words to my wife.

I can fathom the possibility of the feelings fading over time and becoming nothing more than memories that are triggered only now and again by this or that...

I can fathom finding joy again with my W and S.

I can fathom making things better than before with the knowledge of those shortcomings that existed in our relationship prior to my wayward activities.

I can fathom growing old and dying with this woman I'm married to.

All of this is certainly within my ability to grasp. Certainly within the realm of possibility.

That first hurdle is the doozie.

It is apparently very easy for some of you to make that leap for me. Maybe that's from experience... maybe it's from a desire to eleviate my W's pain more quickly... I respect all that... I'm working on it. But honestly... So I turn my back to the ocean and never look back, swearing to my W who is facing me that the ocean doesn't exist and never has?

I give my W more credit than that folks.

If there is a way for us, we'll find it together.

-TMD
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>