Dear MB Forum:

This is my first post of my problems. To try to manage the length, I will summarize best I can giving what I know are pertinent details to help those of you who would be so kind to give me your advice and opinions (THANKS in advance!):
• Married for 9 years; marriage began as an affair with both of us married before; her twice before!
• She from a very abusive background – emotional torment by her mom growing up that included an episode when her mom was physically restrained by her father from potentially “beating her to death!” To this day she HATES her mother and adores her father.
• She developed acute co-dependency from all of this and fled into arms of her teenage boyfriend at age 14 became sexually active. He had an affair on her. She responded by having her own brief A. She stayed with him to get away from her mother.
• They married after high school after the two affairs! Marriage lasted a short while. She cut him off sexually & he bailed after raping her once 2 months before the divorce.
• She had a brief live-in relationship with another guy within a month after the divorce.
• Then she had an A with an older man, her boss at work; married him & broke up his home.
• That lasted 5 yrs through incredible dishonesty & fighting mostly on his part. She cut him off sexually.
• Then she demonstrated interest in me & I reciprocated due to a very poor marriage myself. We were co-workers at the time. We had an immediate A that culminated in our mutual divorces, and then our marrying 1 year later.

• My background was far different from hers. Very strong Christian home & upbringing with non abusing parents. My mother did create an enormous fear in me however that if I didn’t do what was right in her eyes, her love was conditional! I grew up scared to screw up! Scared to death of abandonment it caused me to sneak around alot and lie to her if I felt the truth would get me in trouble or feeling unloved. She has subsequently acknowledged a lot of this in some ways and has become a well person for the most part for which I’m grateful! I love her dearly today.

• My wife & I had a passionate, close, intense early relationship as is often the case. I had no working knowledge of Co-dependency at the time. She had a very advanced case of it. Her clinginess would nearly drive me nuts at times. Instinctively I knew things weren’t balanced and “well” since her whole world revolved entirely around me. But I didn’t know what to really do about it. I tried to be loving and kind best I knew how, but it was never enough for her.

• We both studied the Bible to find answers to life’s questions and our screwups, and chose to commit to being a true Christian family and were baptized a couple of years after our marriage. This was a high moment that I took very seriously. For me this was the final choice to move in the right direction with my life and marriage. Put the mistakes behind me. Be transformed by God’s grace!

• But the co-dependency wasn’t gone. She began to fixate upon every mistake I made, interpret my attempts to get some breathing space as rejection, dishonesty and worse. For her, things pinnacled when I attended a 25 yr high school reunion (private boarding academy) in another state (took her with me), and received the usual at reunions attention of various girls I’d been in school with but hadn’t seen for all those years. Obviously, lots of hugs and tears, etc., as is typical of those occasions. It was way too much for her Co-dependent state to handle. I understand that now, didn’t have a clue then, was actually upset with her for her behavior. Not good.

• Unwittingly, I made it worse. I had some questions about a former school mate I had who had gone into homosexuality – which really troubled me. He & I had been best buddies and college roommates for a while. So I elected, after the high school reunion to email contact one of the females I saw there who knew him well. I screwed up in NOT informing my wife I was writing another female. Eventually she discovered it and went ballistic. Immediately I discontinued the letter writing & showed my wife the final letter saying it wasn’t acceptable to my wife for me to be writing to her even as friends. This other lady and I had never had a romantic relationship in our past. Just school mates and lab partners in 12th grade 25 years before. We’ve had no contact since.

• Things went along for another couple of years. I thought things were fine! She was going through the motions inside & slowly her love was dying. She suspicioned that I was having an A all the time. I wasn’t and hadn’t. It got so annoying I began to be angry about her insecurity. In that anger, I didn’t do a good job meeting her emotional needs for about a year. I did my share of angry outbursts, and showed disrespect. I stayed away at work alot. I focused on my hobbies and interests.

• Then on July 20, 1999 I was notified I was going to loose my job as our company was in financial trouble. I was devastated. I came home that night to tell my wife and seek consolation. Instead, she expressed no sympathy at all. Stonily she sat there and then said “there’s something I need to tell you.” She told me she didn’t want our marriage any longer – she wasn’t happy! That was the worst night of my life. I asked her if there was some one else. She lied and said no.

• The next day, she admitted she was in an A. To say I was shattered is the greatest understatement I’ve ever written in my whole life. 4 years haven’t erased one bit of the pain of that moment. Only when God takes me will that pain be gone I think. I know many of you will understand this feeling.

• The therapist I went to didn’t believe like MB that a line has to be drawn on an A. He encouraged me to just keep letting her act out, that if we made any ultimatums, she would bail out forever.

• Tormented, I went along with it as well as I could. The A continued for about 2 months longer. It was with a contract coworker. She kept his ID hidden from me the best she could. I finally ran across Dr. Harley’s books and got up the courage to confront my therapist and wife. I said this was it! Had my D-day. She waffled for about 2 more weeks. She insisted it was NOT a physical affair. Only hugs. Only emotional support. But that they had told each other they thought they loved each other. OM was married too of course and had a bad marriage, etc.

• They ended it with a phone call. She maintains they’ve had no further contact. I have no concrete evidence they have or have not at this time.

• We went through a year of therapy. Things seemed better. She even used to thank me for “putting up with her” and not leaving her. She wrote occasional letters and notes thanking me for my prayers and support. I figured we were on the road to marriage health. We stopped therapy. I did so with some misgivings….

• Because some of my most important nurturing needs (particularly post-affair) were still not being met. Little affection. Little to no sex (once every 7-10 days). Little to no recreational companionship. She didn’t talk with me. We could ride in silence forever in the car. My attempts to start conversation were “flops”. One word replies. Cutoffs, etc.

• Specifically, she has never recovered any sexual attraction towards me at all. She went through the motions for a brief period. But there was not corresponding feelings in her. I could always tell & see it in her eyes. No kisses. Didn’t want me to touch her sexually. Didn’t want to do the things we had always done in the past when our passion was present.

• When we did have sex, she wanted it over fast. Just get it over with. No foreplay whatsoever. No eye contact. No words of love. Leave the lights down. Only late at night just before sleep. No cuddling afterwards.

• Over the past 4 years of this after the A, my anger grew. My resentment rose. She would retort that she couldn’t trust me. Didn’t feel safe with me. Constantly accused me of having affairs and covering it up. For the record, this is NOT true! I’ve NEVER had an affair on her since the day I met her nearly 10 years ago now.

• Finally, I’ve reconfronted her. This HAS to change. We need more help. We restarted therapy with the same therapist cause he knows everything and she’s comfortable seeing him. He has had us doing grief work saying we didn’t finish up before with the things that have wounded us. This has rocked along for about 2 months now. Then I rediscovered the MB site. Read. Got up my courage.

• Last week I finally drew another line and told both of them we needed to move on to reconstructing a relationship. Yes, grief over losses in the past is important, but for our marriage to have a future, we must work on TODAY and THE FUTURE. We need to begin by stopping the angry outbursts, disrespect, dishonesty and begin meeting each others nurture needs. In other words, implement Stopping Love Busters!

• Here’s where we stand today. No intimacy. When questioned, she says she doesn’t love me any more like a wife should a husband. Says she is afraid to. Doesn’t feel safe with me. Says she doesn’t know whether she can ever love me again with feeling. Says she only cares for me as a person – doesn’t want something bad to happen to me.

• She claims to be having no affairs, says she will never go down that path again; though as a career woman and traveler with men from her company she has ample opportunity. She also exhibits some traits of one having an affair (but not necessarily so); new frosted hair look, lots of new CD's with all sorts of music not necessarily her age level or appropriate for one claiming a Christian experience; spending lots of money on figure enhancing bras & panties from Victoria Secret including styles she claimed to hate in times past; wearing more form flattering clothes than ever before (and she has always had a fabulous body and is very beautiful to look at - and most men watch her closely in public). She also is quick to interact with good looking men at church or work. I know I'm hypersensitive after an A, but I also know what I see. She clearly enjoys their attention.

• She won’t let me see her naked. She won’t look at me naked. Says all I care about is sex. She says, that for me sex is love. And she doesn’t want it with me – which tells me she doesn’t want love with me. She denies that. Says she just doesn’t know how to get her feelings back.

• Yet even in all this she’s hot & cold. Therapist calls it “come close / go away” behavior. Sometimes out of the blue she’ll say “I love you”. But nothing physical attached to it beyond a lukewarm hug either coming or going to work.

• My attempts to meet her needs are sabotaged. Like this week’s her birthday. I tried to plan a really nice shopping experience to get her a new watch she hinted at. Then her favorite meal at her favorite restaurant. Instead, without telling me, she bought 2 cheap watches in NYC last week while there on business. Now doesn’t want anything she says. Of course if I did that, she would berate me to the max! I also offered to fly her to a beach weekend next weekend. She’s said she would like to go to the beach this summer. I took her once in June. When I tried to set it up last week, now she says no she won’t go.

Please help me! I’m so distressed by all of this I don’t know which end is up. I took a psycho-medical evaluation the other day and found I was only 2 points from being hospitalizable from depression and anxiety. This is AFTER the A of 4 years ago!!!

I’ll be grateful for any suggestions and thoughts beyond my therapist and my own.

Right now my specific questions are:

1. Do you think her A was just emotional, not physical as she’s maintained?
2. Why does she refuse to reconnect with me emotionally and physically?
3. Do I continue to try a Plan A? I’ve been working for 4 years more or less on it. How long do you keep trying?
4. Is there any hope here?

I'm a man of prayer. I truly need yours if you feel so inclined, to give me strength to hold on here.

Your wife and I have a similar path.

My instincts are screaming at me that she is having an A now. Your doubts and fears are not in your head, they are real.

Sit down and seriuosly consider your marriage. Do you really want this? Honestly, unless your wife really wants to change, then you have more than one hell of a fight on your hands.

Truthfully, if she was me, I would say that she is so confused right now that she doesn't know what to believe anymore. She shut off to protect herself from the absence of love she feels from you. Plan-A and Plan_B WILL work, but it has to be done patiently and firmly.

First- get yourself stable on Anti-D's. See your therapist for a while THEN figure out what you want. Put your plan in place and keep seeing the therapist...

I will answer what I can if you want me to.

HF,

First, I think you need to find a better counselor. I would recommend the Harley's.

Next, I am going to make some uneducated guesses.

1. She did have sex in her affair.

2. She probably has always used sex to get what she wants (notice how many men she has cut off sexually). Once she has what she wants, she has not need for it.

3. All signs point to her having another affair, if not PA at least EA.

4. You are NOT going to fix her, and her issues seem to be deep. So you have to decide if you want her as a W or not. I would not expect much in the way of changes. I doubt divorce will concern her much, she has a lot of practice,and she appears to be good at using people, especially men.

5. Plan A is a good thing to do, but it won't work with people who have other deep problems. You W appears to have other deep problems.

This doesn't sound very optimistic does it? I am sorry, but I don't know what else to say: except to get professional help with someone that has a record of success. Your MC has had 4 years to deal with this and no apparent progress. To quote Dr. Phil: "How is this workin out of you?"

I would say, change counselors as a first step.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Your wife and I have a similar path.

My instincts are screaming at me that she is having an A now. Your doubts and fears are not in your head, they are real.

Sit down and seriuosly consider your marriage. Do you really want this? Honestly, unless your wife really wants to change, then you have more than one hell of a fight on your hands.

Truthfully, if she was me, I would say that she is so confused right now that she doesn't know what to believe anymore. She shut off to protect herself from the absence of love she feels from you. Plan-A and Plan_B WILL work, but it has to be done patiently and firmly.

First- get yourself stable on Anti-D's. See your therapist for a while THEN figure out what you want. Put your plan in place and keep seeing the therapist...

I will answer what I can if you want me to.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily ~ I truly thank you for your quick reply. YES, I do want your help.

Some of my instincts scream she is now too. Others don't. She is usually avail by phone & spends most hours at work (10-12 / day). Except for on the road, there's not many opportunities. Her trips are not exceptionally frequent (8-10 / year)

You really nailed it with your statement about her shutting down to protect herself. Exactly what the MT says.

I'm going to get some A-D herbs to start with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>HF,

First, I think you need to find a better counselor. I would recommend the Harley's.

Next, I am going to make some uneducated guesses.

1. She did have sex in her affair.

2. She probably has always used sex to get what she wants (notice how many men she has cut off sexually). Once she has what she wants, she has not need for it.

3. All signs point to her having another affair, if not PA at least EA.

4. You are NOT going to fix her, and her issues seem to be deep. So you have to decide if you want her as a W or not. I would not expect much in the way of changes. I doubt divorce will concern her much, she has a lot of practice,and she appears to be good at using people, especially men.

5. Plan A is a good thing to do, but it won't work with people who have other deep problems. You W appears to have other deep problems.

This doesn't sound very optimistic does it? I am sorry, but I don't know what else to say: except to get professional help with someone that has a record of success. Your MC has had 4 years to deal with this and no apparent progress. To quote Dr. Phil: "How is this workin out of you?"

I would say, change counselors as a first step.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning ~ Thank YOU for your reply. I think the best things you've said that resonate with what I think are these:

1. She has used sex. I just hope not still...
2. She is at least set up for an EA.
3. I am learning I cannot "fix" anyone but me.

I don't know about switching MT yet.

I realize only I know her in this discussion. She's an awesome person! (and I'm not terribly easy to impress) Worth loving in every way. She's highly intelligent. Motivated & hard working. She's incredible with little children and finds a way to endear herself into most folks hearts rather quickly. She's extremely generous and helpful to anyone who needs it. I've mentioned her physical beauty, but seriously she's blessed by God with extraordinary attributes. Amazing how that can be turned into a curse isn't it?!?!

I'm trying to figure out just "how deep" her problems run. I know that from the outside looking in, I would tend to say 3 marriages...by the age of 28 is a terrible indicator. Now she's in her mid 30s and facing a 4th marriage!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE = what I would say. Unless you know her. . She doesn't fit the stereotypical mold of a multiple marriage person in how she presents herself & is viewed in our church and community.

It's so confusing.

You've described me to a tee.

Don't fool around with the depression. Get on some serious meds...NOW! I suffered from Depression and it almost cost me my life.

Secondly, all of those attributes that you love her for are the VERY things that she is hiding behind. I was all of those things too, but it was a lie because I was so empty inside. I used all of those things to hide behind because I wasn't whole. My identity was created on what I could "DO" for other people rather than what I was to me. It became a frenzy at some point where no matter what I did, it didn't fill the void inside. I became hostile and angry because the "gifts" I gave to others weren't filling the void anymore.

Once I wasn't filled, I looked to male attention to make me feel special...leading me towards my A and eventually me finding me.

She's a very sick woman.

Kily ~ you DO sound a lot like her. I can almost hear her saying what you've said here.

I will make a move towards some med help. I promise.

If she's NOT having a current A, does that change anything in your mind? Any difference in the approach?

Recommendations on dealing with the co-dependency from a former one? I've read tons so now have some background.

What would have helped you MOST if your man would have known your true condition back in your time of trouble?

What would have HURT you MOST from your man during that same time?

I feel like the sick trying to help the sick if you know what I mean. But I'm a fighter. I don't ever give up on anything worth while. Never had. Not going to start now. Trick is figuring out when it's no longer worth while.... This is something I have given over to God for the ultimate help on. I'm not wise enough to figure that out.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: High Flight ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB]HF,

First, I think you need to find a better counselor. I would recommend the Harley's.

Next, I am going to make some uneducated guesses.

2. She probably has always used sex to get what she wants (notice how many men she has cut off sexually). Once she has what she wants, she has not need for it.

3. All signs point to her having another affair, if not PA at least EA.
***********************************************
Just Learning,

Further thinking and questions here:

1) What do you see that she would "want"? She didn't get rich off of prior marriages. In fact she walked away from everything each time. I think she's been on an honest search for true love since she was born. She doesn't hardly recognize it when it comes to her, based on the dysfunction of her family growing up.

2) I don't disagree that all signs point to another A, if not PA, EA. She steadfastly claims not. She checks in with me on a very regular basis as a part of the accountability the MC requires. My gut is that she's on the verge of another EA, but hasn't really begun to open up her heart to another just yet. Maybe only partially...a couple of times. But she's controlling it pretty close out of a sense of guilt.

She's been stunned to see the personal devastation she's put me through I can tell. After 4 years, this has really, really aged me. I've always been youthful with appearance and energy well below my actual years. Folks would guess my age about 5-8 yrs below actual. Now my hair is graying rapidly and my face has taken on a different aged look from all the stress.

My Mom worries that I'm getting set up for cancer later, since it preys on the stressed so readily according to recent studies.

I told her that I'm doing the best I can. This is my major life test. I've got to pass it with the personal growth and character development that will see me into the future life.

If it is my lot to develop cancer, but I've been a faithful husband and procured a sound trustworthy character, then so be it. It takes testing to prove worth and bring out the real man.

I appreciate your thoughts and prayers.

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: High Flight ]</small>

TTT

HF, this is a passage from a book I found very enlightening when I went through a "mid life" crisis at age 30. Much of her hair color changing and all that's going along with it is pretty normal for her age. It's also the age when many women walk away from their lives to re-create themselves, not understanding that they can evolve without leaving. I'll try to write more later, but here's the quote:

From A Woman’s Book of Life:

In early and middle adulthood the process of adolescing, or growing up, coexists with the process of senescing, or growing down, periods when our life structures go in to decline. The life structure is defined as a boundary between ourselves and the external world that functions as framework for occupational and family relationships. It is composed of our hopes and dreams, values and talents. How will we fit into the world? What is important to us? What will make us happy?

The period that spans the late teens to mid forties is one of building the life structure for our adulthood. The early thirties are what he calls a "structure-changing or transitional period that terminates the existing life structure and creates the possibility for a new one". .....

The major task involved in the age thirty transition, which Levinson found to span the years between 28 and 32, is the exploration of new possibilities and the finishing up of old business that may be getting in the way of a woman's continued growth.

Inherent in reevaluating what Levinson calls our "necessarily flawed" early life structures, are nagging questions about how to combine work and family, whether to combine work and family, and whether early marriage partnerships are working out. These questions may be further confounded by the stress of infertility. Many women in their 30's want to be mothers, but either can't conceive or have trouble carrying the pregnancy to term. Will they persevere in trying to conceive or alter their life plan? Central to a woman's age thirty transition is the question "what do I really want?"

Dear Hope4Future ~ I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post these thoughts. Without doubt some of her "Fog" is cyclical life changes.

It always pays to "make haste slowly" in these things I believe - for life issues really are complex. What you see may or man not be what you get...

Last night's session with our MT went pretty well. I have insisted on implementing Dr. H's "Love Busters" concepts. Both the MT and the WW have bought off on it for time being.

I still have hope. But like another said here, the sickness is profound, combined with a lifetime of co-dependency and affairs and man manipulation, I've got my lifework cut out for me....

Maybe...maybe not. If she wants to change, she will. I did. My husband doesn't have a lifetime sentence of dealing with me and my issues...he has a lifetime committment both to and from me of growing together. The past can be healed and new paths can be chosen. Motivation...not education...would be the best thing she could get from you. Education is definatly part of the process...but it never seems to sink in when it's from you're partner, for some reason. I know...when I want my husbands agreement on a house project, I convince the lumberyard guy first...then I let him convince my hubby. That's just more effective. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

HI HF-

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I fell and broke my ankle so life has become a bit more challenging!

Anyway, I wanted to address your questions:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she's NOT having a current A, does that change anything in your mind? Any difference in the approach?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. and No. My approach would be pretty drastic, but then again that comes from getting through it and standing where I stand today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recommendations on dealing with the co-dependency from a former one? I've read tons so now have some background.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's hard to give advice because my situation was so messed up. I had to be ready to change, and willing to completely face my darkest fears. I think that a person normally isn't willing to do that until they completely loose the things that hold their fantasy world together. Yes, I mean fantasy. I traded one fantasy - the perceived happy family that I thought I had with XBF - for the thrill and excitement of an A. All of the illusions that I held about life had to be completely shattered in order for me to start really looking at the world for what it truly is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would have helped you MOST if your man would have known your true condition back in your time of trouble? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it would have helped me if he had the coping tools and was able to support me. There were many times when I cried out of my pain and fear. He turned to his job because he simply didn't know HOW to help.

I guess the best thing to do is to look into CODA meetings or AL-ANON meetings and really educate yourself. Talk to other spouses that are in your position and get some support and guidance from people that have been there.

Is your wife currently going to CODA meetings? Is she doing the twelve steps? Does she even really believe that she has a problem? Is she looking at herself as the cause of her unhappiness? Is she blaming YOU for everything?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would have HURT you MOST from your man during that same time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what hurt me the most was that he denied that anything was really wrong. As I mentioned, I was down on my hands and knees - begging for help. His choice was to turn away and ignore the problem. His decision was to tell me that it was all in my head and pretend that life was great. Emotionally abandoning me when I emotionally abandoned myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like the sick trying to help the sick if you know what I mean. But I'm a fighter. I don't ever give up on anything worth while. Never had. Not going to start now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're all unhealthy in our own ways. The whole point of truly living is to accept that life is about bettering ourselves, and really comitting to opening up to what can be. The trick is, not FIGHTING for things. You can't control this and to do so will leave you exhausted, depressed, and hopeless. What's important is to learn how to embrace what is, then to evaluate what can and can't happen, then to make the best plan to cause change. Constant evaluation of the situation and changes will help you to learn a different way of doing things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Trick is figuring out when it's no longer worth while.... This is something I have given over to God for the ultimate help on. I'm not wise enough to figure that out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As wise JL told me once, you will KNOW when it is time.

I've probably left you more confused than ever. What I am trying to get across is that it is HER choice on whether or not she wants to be whole. You can't fix her. All you can do is listen, learn, evaluate, and make choices based on results.

CODA, Al-Anon, Anti -D's.

That is where you need to start.

Kily ~ I've VERY sorry to hear about your broken ankle. May healing come to you soon with no complications!!!

No question, unless she's willing to change, there's no hope. This is always a bottom line in all therapy.

I've thought of this fantasy business in regards to her situation. It certainly seems true. She's very much into her own fantasy world. I think my strategy is evolving over the past few days. Plan A from about Sep 03 - Mar 04. Then Plan B.

No. She's not going to CODA. No 12 step either. Only MC with a therapist. She's read about 3 books with major prodding from the therapist. She doesn't want to read anything I place before her.

She sort of thinks she has some problems. But they are mostly blamed on her mother, her prior relationships, and now ME as the ultimate cause because "she's never loved anyone more than me, so why couldn't I treat her better before the A"? This is her mantra.

See, I know I did some of this abandoning of her too emotionally, not knowing how to cope with a Co-Dep person in years back. I felt overwhelmed and smothered by her in times past due to her extreme clingyness and lack of self direction.

Great advice here! Thank you!!!

Not really confused! I'm seeing things little by little. You're right on in my opinion. Many thanks!

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: High Flight ]</small>