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Hello all,
As I participate in other threads and read still more, I'm beginning to believe that the idea of unconditional love is as much, if not more, a fantasy than that bolstered by the fog of the A.
What think you on the thought of unconditional love as it applies to the real world of marriage and commitment?
Anyone?
This is not a question for debate. Just looking for thoughts.
Thank you in advance for your participation.
-TMD
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TMD,
I think the concept of unconditional love is irrelavent as regards marriage. Only dogs love unconditionally.
What marriage needs is deliberate love (action). Which makes it possible for the partners to put the others' needs above their own (more often than not). This requires a belief in something higher, a standard for marriage that exists apart from personal affinity and attraction.
It's not very romantic sometimes, but I'm convinced that this is what makes the difference between intact and failed marriages.
I think the whole concept of romantic love is fog-like. It all dissipates when the going gets tough, in or out of marriage.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>TMD,
What marriage needs is deliberate love (action). Which makes it possible for the partners to put the others' needs above their own (more often than not). This requires a belief in something higher, a standard for marriage that exists apart from personal affinity and attraction.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW!!! That should be Quote of the Day, terminator.
When I finally got a good grasp of that truth, it was a turning-point in my recovery. In letting go of my feelings for the OM and committing myself to re-building feelings of love for my H...as you said, through action.
Last night I snuggled with my H on the sofa as we watched the Cubs game. I felt deep and pleasurable contentment and closeness to him, amazing because less than a year ago I truly believed I was in love with another man and totally NOT in love with my H.
Loving action, on both our parts, has made all the difference.
<small>[ October 01, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Sincere1 ]</small>
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Unconditional love...
don't want it...don't need it, don't believe in it...
Actually that's not necessarily true...but lets just start with what people believe the definition of that term is and what it means...
In theory unconditional love means that no matter what a person does, chooses...that they still remain lovable...
which is true...but serves no real purpose...
the action of loving someone unconditionally does not equate excepting extremely poor behaviors and choices...and removing oneself from toxic choices and actions does not equate into not loving or accepting someone....
God loves us unconditionally...but it is within that unconditional love that should drive us not to accept that is enough..BUT to guide ourselves in actions that are glorifying of His unconditional love....
that God's love itself is demonstrated through us by our actions....
We can and do love our children unconditionally ..meaning that we always feel love for them...but that doesn't mean that we always accept their behaviors...
the example of not enabling a child who has turned to drugs as a series of poor choices...out of our unconditional love...we can still remove ouselves from enabling their destructive behaviors and still maintain feeling love for them...even though they will argue that the actions of not enabling is proof that you do not love them...
The reality of unconditional love within a marriage is the same...
I do not love my husband unconditionally...
I would not want my husband to love me unconditionally...
what i want is the love that we have to make us accountable to one another...
that their are conditions that create, enhance and nurture our love...just as there are conditions that would destroy, alienate, and starve our love...
I strive to be a better person because I value my husband and his love for me..
I strive to be a better person because I value God's love for me...
If my husband gave me love unconditionally to me it would mean that he sees no potential in me to be a better person...that he is willing to settle for whatever I offer him...and that's enough...
that he cares so little of my character, and my faith, and even my value...that i could throw it all down the toilet by my actions...and if because he loved me unconditionally he'd let me do it...
what would that type of love gain me?...
what would that type of love gain him?...
I don't see where the term unconditional love serve any positive function....
it is overused as an arguement to rationalize disrespectful actions that are anything but loving...
If I was dating or involved with someone who said they loved me unconditionally...I would run the other way...they have no idea what love means...
ARK
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This subject comes up from time 2 time. And since I "hang out" at an "unconditional love" site, I think it's appropriate 2 point you 2 a thread on here from last December about this very subject. I found "The Man I Am" 's posts most enlightening of the bunch on that subject. I personally think that the Harley's, cerri, and the above posters have it all wrong. Agree or disagree. Your choice. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=008568-kid 2long (aka Qfwfq, T-zero)
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However you think about it, love is a two way street. We may be able to practice strict unconditional love for a time, but it cannot be practiced forever.
When my W informed me of her A, there were times that I doubted my love for her. I didn't feel it and sometimes didn't want it back. I do love her now more than I ever have. From her point of view, my love through this turmoil has been unconditional, but if you count the few times that I doubted or didn't feel it, it wouldn't stand up to the dictionary definition of it.
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No one but God can truly give unconditional love. The love of a parent for a child comes close.
Romantic love? No way is it unconditional...nor, I will suggest SHOULD it be. You can have unconditonal commitment, but not unconditional romantic love.
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h_r:
"We may be able to practice strict unconditional love for a time, but it cannot be practiced forever. "
Then it's conditional, with time being the condition.
-kid 2long
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kam:
"No one but God can truly give unconditional love. The love of a parent for a child comes close."
The love of most parents of their children is conditional. They do something their parents like, and they receive love.
"Romantic love? No way is it unconditional...nor, I will suggest SHOULD it be. You can have unconditonal commitment, but not unconditional romantic love. "
Romantic love is conditional, so "romantic unconditional love" is a contradiction.
-kid 2long
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Wow! That was riveting. This closing was such to make my heart soar. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by The Man I Am There are no conditions in place for love to exist. It's given, anyway. It's not retracted by any action. Its not diminished by change, indeed it accepts change and most importantly, offers the predictable guidance for positive change. There is no threat. There is no sword at one's throat. You can separate and rejoin with no loss. Distance is irrelevant, as is time. Simply, there are no conditions. If you really loved your wife, and her happiness was important, then her marrying another, and her being happy with that, should bring you happiness. You would love her just the same. Freedom is the purest expression of unconditional love. Conditional love is a series of chains, of demands, of pressures. Unconditional love is freedom. You and others have built conditions within your relationship that for whatever reason, your partner has found it impossible to live with. No one leaves unconditional love. Where can you find more love, than where all that you want, without condition, without price, already exists! If you truly want your love back, then you must offer yours unconditionally. She leaves you, love her anyway. She runs, love her anyway. She cries, love her anyway. She has flaws, love her anyway. Refuse the false desire to require a condition - ignore her conditions, and love her anyway. When we rediscovered our love for each other, I said to my faithful wife, "You can stay or you can go - but I will be the same person I am here. I will not change." She first felt that it was a statement that I did not care for her feelings, but later she understood that my feelings would not change based on her decision. I would still love her as much as I would if she stayed, even if she left. She stayed. Many believe only God can practice unconditional love. This is not true. Only God can practice PERFECT unconditional love. We humans have to work at it. Only God can establish the perfect peace. Do we as humans then dismiss the concept of peace, simply because we are not able to accomplish it perfectly? No. We work hard and constantly work to achieve a lasting peace, and fail. But that does not detract or impugn the concept of peace whatsoever, nor in our own small world practice peaceful actions with those in our direct contact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
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No one leaves unconditional love.
but that's not really true is it?
...plenty of people that are loved at home within a marriage leave of their own accord and seek out another person...
some wives and husbands were/are really really loving good spouses and out of a WS own choices and actions they leave that...and some leave it totally...to leave the BS behind...
but later she understood that my feelings would not change based on her decision. I would still love her as much as I would if she stayed, even if she left. She stayed.
I can buy that people can love the person regardless of their actions/choices...but when the recipitant chooses otherwise...
for sometimes...very often...if not always...
love isn't enough...
conditional, unconditional, people still are unfaithful...
people still leave...
love or no love...
love is not enough...
Unconditional love is freedom.
I agree with that....no different then conditional love...
it is the freedom to choose actions that directly hurt someone...regardless of their reaction..positive/negative/ambivalent...we all have that freedom...
free-will to choose...
and if he is saying that unconditional love exist to the point that they have no emotional attachment or connection to the actions of their spouses...and that no matter what they do the will only feel love for them...one emotion, even love is not a good thing...to know joy we have to know sadness...to know pain we have to know feeling good...to know gain..we have to know loss...etc. etc. etc...one even keeled emotion is just a step from apathy...
It's almost saying if you love your spouse unconditionally they will never leave you/cheat on you...don't buy that at all...
I don't see the purpose of unconditional love in the context of action in relationship to other people..
If my spouse cheats on me..leaves for someone else...and I find that I feel love for them that I want their happiness so I tell them no matter what you do...I still love you...they still have free will even with that offering to choose too leave...
and the love I feel while it will probably serve to save me from some mental anguish and negative emotions/trauma...it doesn't really serve them, the leaving spouse, if they don't accept the gift of love...why would they care if I loved them unconditionally..they have still left for the OP...
ARK
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^: <strong> No one leaves unconditional love. ...one emotion, even love is not a good thing...to know joy we have to know sadness...to know pain we have to know feeling good...to know gain..we have to know loss...etc. etc. etc...one even keeled emotion is just a step from apathy... ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARK - I bow to the deft weilding of your mighty cyber pen... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you haven't, go read the posting by The Man I Am on the link 2Long provided. The posting is actually quite a good read. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ARK said and if he is saying that unconditional love exist to the point that they have no emotional attachment or connection to the actions of their spouses... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he said earlier that he felt unconditional love was not a state of being in love but just love itself. I don't think he neccessarily precluded the potential pain and disappointment that would come from adverse outcomes. My read on it was that it doesn't change that fact of the love. To view this as potentially apathetic is certainly glass-half-empty but your statement rings with truth none-the-less. There are myriad examples to inspire skepticism in that regard right here. One in particular comes to mind. -TMD <small>[ October 01, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>
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but what is love without action, or feeling ?? unconditional perhaps...but without any real value or purpose... it exists...for sure..but serves no one... and we all know.. or are coming to realize... that love sometimes is not enough.... ARK who especially loves candycorn this time of year unconditionally...regardless of how many extra sit ups it takes at the Y... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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ark:
I had promised not 2 post 2 TMD's threads anymore, and I won't (after this), but I just had 2 respond 2 this:
"but that's not really true is it?
...plenty of people that are loved at home within a marriage leave of their own accord and seek out another person..."
Physically leaving your spouse isn't the same thing as leaving the love. Look, I'm an atheist, but I was a Christian Scientist. They think pretty abstractly compared 2 most Christian religions, and maybe that's why I think the way I do 2day. Plan A is loving unconditionally, in many ways. I think that was pointed out by someone on Mark's December thread. The objective is 2 be loving, so that the WS has something desirable 2 come home 2. Of course, unconditional love would still be given if the WS never re2rned (or it would be conditional after all). And if the WS never re2rns and the BS remarries, it isn't inappropriate 2 continue 2 love the XS unconditionally. It's nothing like romantic love, which is what you're talking about. It's nothing 2 do with marriage contracts, which is what we usually talk about here.
I'll go away and stay away now.
-kid 2long
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>but what is love without action, or feeling ??
unconditional perhaps...but without any real value or purpose...
it exists...for sure..but serves no one...
and we all know..
or are coming to realize...
that love sometimes is not enough....
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmn... Yes... coming to realize indeed.
-TMD
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"romantic unconditional love" is a contradiction.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly the point Harley makes...and I concur. There is no such thing as "unconditional" romantic love.
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TMD:
Oh cripes!
"Hmmn... Yes... coming to realize indeed."
What the hell does this mean? What are you realizing? What are you learning? That it's okay 2 have an A because love at home "is not enough?" or giving up the OW is the right thing 2 do because "love is not enough?"
Coming from a WS so recently in an A, I really have 2 wonder what you mean by this.
And please, this wasn't said harshly. I am genuinely worried about where you're going with it.
Also, from above:
"To view this as potentially apathetic is certainly glass-half-empty but your statement rings with truth none-the-less. There are myriad examples to inspire skepticism in that regard right here. One in particular comes to mind."
Care 2 be specific?
ark:
The kind of love that "isn't enough" is anything but unconditional, or even "real."
"With Real Love, nothing else matters; without it, nothing else is enough." -Greg Bear
-kid 2long.
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2Long -
I did not ask you to not post to my threads. In fact I told you I appreciated your posts when they were appropriately critical...
Your "heart pumps peanutbutter for me.." ?? Not sure... really... what that accomplishes. It does not... however... garner respect. Humorous, I'm sure, for those given to the same tendancies. In reality, it demonstrates a willingness on your part to pour salt in one's wounds. Hence my comment on vindictiveness.
I want your input even the negative... you can apply it with a heavy hand or with contempt or you can apply it with effectiveness. Always your choice.
If that is an unreasonable request, then I respect your desire to abstain from further interaction with me.
And I DO hope things work out in the end for you and your W.
Bye for now.
-TMD
<small>[ October 01, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>
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TMD:
"Your "heart pumps peanutbutter for me.." ?? Not sure... really... what that accomplishes. It does not... however... garner respect. Humorous, I'm sure, for those given to the same tendancies. In reality, it demonstrates a willingness on your part to pour salt in one's wounds. Hence my comment on vindictiveness."
Okay. I thought it was pretty funny, but I'm one of those that habi2ally laughs at his own jokes - usually they're about me or my life. Is that vindictiveness or pouring salt in2 wounds? Maybe. Sometimes I think we all need salt poured in2 our wounds, particularly if we've grown perversely fond of them. And that wasn't meant 2 be harsh, either.
I have had 2 make fun of myself and my si2ation 2 keep some semblance of my sanity for so long. Long before I met my W 29 years ago, I was known for coming up with nicknames for my friends and acquaintances. Some of them were not very flattering, so I usually dropped them - unless they had "stuck" (because sometimes the namee ac2ally liked the nickname). I nicknamed my W's OM "Rat Meat" a long time ago, 2 distinguish him from all the OMs on here, and because it expressed how I felt at the time. The name's stuck, though he isn't aware of it. Nowadays, I don't really feel all that much anger 2ward him. But I still "wouldn't care if he were the spittin' image of Jesus on the cross" (another thing I said about him a year or so ago). I told my W that one more than once. It was probably received as a harsh remark at the time, but it's not intended 2 be. I pity him more than I am angry at him anymore. His M broke up as a result of their A, and now he's had 2 go through a nasty custody battle for their 2 boys.
These experiences ARE hard on us, and I get through it sometimes by deflecting the hurt with a little humor. Sorry for offending.
"And I DO hope things work out in the end for you and your W."
They have been for the past few months, finally. Better than ever before. And that's where I'm coming from when I talk about time and patience. On the one hand, in si2ations like these, there's the possibility that the WS will stay on the fence 2long, such that the BS gives up before they're ready for reconciliation. And on the other hand, there's the BS that gives up without a proper "fight" (really, working through the problem themselves, rather than blaming their plight on the WS).
So much real growth oppor2nity can be "lost" forever so easily. That has been my point.
regards,
-kid 2long
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long: <strong>TMD: Oh cripes! </strong> LOL - 2Long... I do believe you're in love with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <strong> "Hmmn... Yes... coming to realize indeed." What the hell does this mean? What are you realizing? What are you learning? That it's okay 2 have an A because love at home "is not enough?" </strong> No - I'm not foolish enough to believe that my actions were ever justifiable. Even in my deepest fog i knew better than that 2Long. <strong> or giving up the OW is the right thing 2 do because "love is not enough?" </strong> hmnnn... You see right through me don't you? In and of itself... no... but I personally believe there is some weight to that thought. <strong> Coming from a WS so recently in an A, I really have 2 wonder what you mean by this. </strong> Look 2Long - since I'm being deadly honest here... Whether or not it is acceptable here in this forum... and regardless of your propensity to wave the banner of revisionist history... This is a woman I never stopped loving. I Don't know why... maybe there really isn't an answer to that... the reality that has begun to materialize in recent days and which will bring back a conversation you and I had early in my original thread is one of integrity. I realized with the help of people here that the repercussions of my actions, regardless of how I validated the actions, were the things that would follow me through life. But not just me. everyone involved. So though I love the OW... I demonstrate an immeasurable lack of respect for her in following through with the A. So though I love my W... I demonstrate an immeasurable lack of respect for her in following through with the A. And furthermore provide her with no other view of life beyond the wasteland that I've created. So though I love my son... I demonstrate a level of irresponsibility that is not lost on a 5 year old. And I witness his respect for me slowly fall away. I could write a novel and even then would leave out components of what I've learned so the inevitable revisions would have to be released annually.... <strong> And please, this wasn't said harshly. I am genuinely worried about where you're going with it. </strong> Thank you 2Long... I did.. to some extent... go where you suspected. I'm realizing so many things... but in this thread I'm seeing that love alone is not enough to save my marriage. AND love alone can never be the justification for the destruction of 2 families and all the horror that entails. <strong> Also, from above: "To view this as potentially apathetic is certainly glass-half-empty but your statement rings with truth none-the-less. There are myriad examples to inspire skepticism in that regard right here. One in particular comes to mind." Care 2 be specific? </strong> I believe I've done just that. Thanks again 2Long<strong> ark: The kind of love that "isn't enough" is anything but unconditional, or even "real." "With Real Love, nothing else matters; without it, nothing else is enough." -Greg Bear </strong> I've read a few Greg Bear novels.. EON and Blood Music are a couple off the top of my head. <strong> -kid 2long.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <small>[ October 01, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: -TMD ]</small>
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