Hello to all of my friends and to fellow MB'ers.

I am wondering what is it that tells a WS that it is OK to have an A? What is the thought process that says that M vows mean nothing and infidelity is OK.

Also, why is it that a WS while even in recovery still lies to you while professing the truth? Do they just become habitual liars? Can they ever tell the entire truth?

These are some thoughts that are bothering me lately. Thanks for your help.

I beleive that it is a series of actions in which the WS deceives his/herself that they are not doing anything wrong and that they can stop it at any time. In other words, in order to cross every marital boundary the WS MUST deceive him/herself because otherwise they would be faced with the truth that what they are doing is wrong. So the dishonesty is not only towards the BS but towards the WS as well.

As far as why the WS still lies to the BS while supossedly in recovery, it may have to do with fear and habit. As mentioned in another thread, old habits are very hard to break, especially if they are lifelong habits.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM-

Thanks for your answer. So if the WS so easily deceives the BS and themself, how do you when they are deceiving you again? I mean unless I can see my FWS with my own eyes, how do I really believe what she says?

I am just having a hard time lately seeing that things will ever get better for us.

Thanks

The perspective of this WS...

You know... something to consider... Maybe the WS never actually succeeded in convincing themselves the A was OK... and now deal with incredible guilt from which temporary reprieve is found in continued contact with the OP.

I've personally found that there are several layers to the fog... each layer moves us toward improved clarity but each provides a monumental struggle.

Like 2Long says from his own experience... It will require equally monumental patience on the part of the BS... hopefully you will have as much patience as my BS seems to have right now. There is always the risk that the M will fail if the WS takes to long to come back.

I guess it comes down to how bad you want to fix it... How much you feel he's worth the continued pain he 's inflicting on you... and how badly you want him to come back because he believes it is the right thing to do and understands that he loves you and has had the time to filter out the chaos for what it is. If you can't wait for that, what have either of you gained for your pain? A continued facade?

This is where I am on this road. I'm N/C for 9 days today. My breakthroughs recently have given me a different perspective on all of it than I've had before.

I'm still fighting the fog. And I gotta tell ya... fighting the fog when you have acknowledged it is real has been the greatest struggle for me emotionally. My connection to the OW is so strong even at this stage of knowing what is right that even while I make inroads to healing with my W... I liken the removal of the OW from my life to the self amputation of an arm with a hand saw. My mind and body and heart rails against me all the way and I fight it all the way.

11 days ago I lost the fight. I told my W after... now I start over. This time though... the fight isn't quite as hard as before. The amputation analogy still fits... but there's Novvacaine on slow drip now.

I hope this helps you understand the perspective from the eyes that have so injured your soul. It may not match your WS's perspective... But it is a perspective.

-TMD

CoffeeMan and -TMD,

Thank you for your replies to my H.

We just got back from being at his sisters wedding and then at the MB Confrence, and now he is out of town this week for work.

I am not sure, (H, correct me if I am wrong) but I think that some of H's concern is because we are apart, he has no way of knowing where or whom I am with. (other than to call him from those destinations).

The confrence was good, and I am looking forward to doing the workbooks with my H!

BTW - TMD, Does your name stand for "Temporal Mandibular Disorder?"

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Oscar the Grouch ]</small>

STTSI a few years ago my home got robbed and my girls and I went through more than a year of being terrified to leave our home alone. Why? because we felt violated and we didn't know who the culprit(s) was/were or whether s/he/them would strike once more. We finally came to the realization that other than ensuring the necessary precautions (home alarm system, having friends or neighbors keep a watchful eye on our home, etc.) there was nothing we could to prevent s/he/them from trying to rob us once again. So what's my point? That in order to enjoy life you MUST accept the countless uncertainties that come with it and that are beyond your control.

Okay here is answer for you mill over.

If nothing has changed in the conditions that led to the affair.....

Then NOTHING other than the learned experience of how much pain it causes will prevent it from happening again.

Now you can choose to leave the status quo hoping the guilt/shame is your protector or you can actively strive to improve your marriage thus affair proofing it.

Still I know how tough it is to trust again. That's not really want you are talking about. Its that reassurance it won't happen again.

Part of that has to come from Ready....a large part.

Then the both of you have to decide what can you both do to strengthen your marriage.

Affairs don't happen just because an opportunity presents itself. They happen because there is something either missing or wrong in a marriage OR the person that had the affair.

What was suffering in your marriage preaffair and what can be done to correct that?

What was suffering with Ready in terms of her personal self preaffair and what can be done about that?

And like it or not what was suffering with you preaffair as well?

Still affairs are wakeup calls. They can result in fixing a potentially good marriage to ending bad ones. What affairs aren't is a vote to maintain the status quo.

You went to MB like bunchessorry and I. I am sure you came to realize that many things were lacking preaffair that can be readily fixed if both of you are ready.

So are you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by imready2try:
<strong>BTW - TMD, Does your name stand for "Temporal Mandibular Disorder?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL - NO! it's short for my original nick... TrulyMadlyDeeply

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by -TMD:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by imready2try:
<strong>BTW - TMD, Does your name stand for "Temporal Mandibular Disorder?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL - NO! it's short for my original nick... TrulyMadlyDeeply

-TMD</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh - Thank you! TMD in my line of work talks about Muscle/Joint Disorders - So I thought I would ask...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry H for hijacking your thread...

Oscar- So if you really meant your vows and knew what you were doing was wrong, then why not stop it? Why let it get to a PA? I don't understand the "Before I knew what was hapening..." logic.

I don't understand why lie about things? I mean I already knew about the A, what more could have been said to make things worse?

TMCM- I know what you mean about accepting the uncertainities in life. But while me must accept them, we can also control and limit the possibilities, like you getting a security system. I can limit the chance of further hurt by not staying with this M.

Stunned- Have things changed? Yes, but I often wonder when things will go back to their old ways again. You are right, the MB weekend was great. But I don't see that I will ever love or trust W again. That is what hurts most and has me thinking.

Thanks to all of you with your comments, it gets me thinking which is good. Is it normal to second guess the decision about recovery? Like I said, I don't ever see myself truely loving and trusting W again. The day I learned of the A, a part of me died and I am afriad of trying to revive that part of me.

A very sad,
STTSI

Hey Still

You know the toughest thing to do as a betrayed spouse is to project the future of your marriage when clearly you didn't have the solid grasp of the past you thought you did.

Trust is tough and without you are right in the long run there can be no love.

But lack of trust stems from fears and insecurities. Understanding those fears and insecurities is the ONLY way for you to move forward with trust.

I was very foolish. My wife's intimacy problems led me to believe my marriage was affair proof. Indeed in the middle of her affair she would often say to me "you don't have to worry about me having an affair you know how much I hate sex."

So can you imagine how I felt upon discovery? I mean if my marriage wasn't safe when she hated sex then how in the world would it be safe once she addressed her abuse/rape issues that were killing her normal sex drive. I mean suddenly she is a whole woman experiencing real orgasms not those faked to speed things up.

Her environment hasn't drastically changed. Same job where some quarters she has open time to be out in the field. Still travel for trade shows and continuing education seminars/conferences. Plenty of male co-workers and males that call on her department.

So trust really came down to a couple of things.

First were her actions, words and her feelings.

Secondly I could see a real and genuine change in her as a person.

Finally we addressed issues in our marriage beyond the obvious sexual ones that needed to be fixed in order to make us closer as a couple.

Still

I recognize it isn't easy---I know. I can't speak for you but I too felt something I thought had died when I found out about the affair. But it wasn't dead merely in a trauma induced coma.
It can reawaken and with proper couples therapy like Marriage Builders in can live a long and happy life.

Make sure something died not that something was awaken....the green monster of jealousy. Make sure your pride isn't telling your heart what to do.

If you love her then the two of you do CPR on that part of you that you think is dead. If after that you still cannot revive your love then let it rest in peace. But don't give up on your marriage patient until you pulled out all the stops.

You see you are scared of the future and rightly so. Its scary to think of her not being there. Its scary to think this could happen to you again. And its scary to think you might forgive her now and regret it later down the road.

But its equally scary to think you might rush to divorce and regret later on down the road too.

Its alot easier to give it your best shot now than to divorce and try to get it back only to find its too late.

In short nothing keeps you from divorcing later on down the road don't pride and pain keep you from fighting for your marriage here and now.

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Oscar the Grouch ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Still Trying To Save It:

TMCM- I know what you mean about accepting the uncertainities in life. But while me must accept them, we can also control and limit the possibilities, like you getting a security system. I can limit the chance of further hurt by not staying with this M.

STTSI</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The security system will not stop a determined professional thief from getting inside my home, do I then just give up on having a home?

Unless you are willing to write off marriage forever from your life then yes I would agree with your statement, but if that is not the case then you may be fooling yourself that this cannot happen again in another marriage.

Stunned:
<strong>You see you are scared of the future and rightly so. Its scary to think of her not being there. Its scary to think this could happen to you again. And its scary to think you might forgive her now and regret it later down the road.

But its equally scary to think you might rush to divorce and regret later on down the road too.</strong>

How right you are with these words. The only difference is that I am not scared of a life without her. By her own choices she made me get used to that option. What I am most afraid of is that I will forgive her only to find her with another OM, only by then we might have children. I would rather leave now then to add kids into the mix only to have another A.

Oscar:
<strong>I never said,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Before I knew what was hapening..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did know what was happening.</strong>

I didn't mean that as a shot to you, its just that I have heard that line time and time again.

So, Oscar, if you knew what you were doing was wrong, why didn't you stop it? Why did you wait for your W to find out?

I guess what I am struggling with is the fact that W knew what she was doing was wrong, but did nothing to stop it. We seperated and she filed for Dv. In the Dv, she asked for all sorts of crazy things. Although she denies it, it seems to me that when she realized that OM wasn't the knight in shining armor she hoped and that she couldn't get from me in Dv what she wanted I suddenly became a better option then divorce. Here we are, just married and this new guy comes along and says "I can be a better H than your H can" so she goes for him. When she finds out that he isn't a better option she comes rushing back to me. What I am afraid of is what will happen the next time some other guy strolls along.

Oscar:
<strong>Anyway, I didn't add my thoughts to try and get any forgiveness. I also don't have all the answers myself, so I can't give any to you. All I can do is tell you what I've been through, and how is understand it to this point.</strong>

I really appreciate your point of view and your thoughts, thank you for responding!

TMCM- I agree with what you are saying. I don't want to fool myself any longer. What I fear however, is that I am fooling myself into thinking that W loves me and that I am not the best option for the momment.

Update: I am back home now and althought W and I really haven't talked about last week we have spent some good times together. Is it normal during recovery to have moments of utter dispair and hopelesness?

W and I are planning on talking tonight about last week and what happened.

Thanks,

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Oscar the Grouch ]</small>

Oscar- If you don't mind I would like to explore this further. If you do mind then just let me know and I will leave it alone.

When did you make the decision to Dv your W? What stage was the A in at that point, friends, EA or PA?

You said you never felt like you didn't love your W. If you did love her then why go through with the A know how much it would hurt her? Did you think it wouldn't hurt her because you thought she didn't love you?

Did the A end on or around D-Day?

Do you miss OW?

How do you look back at her? Loving? Happy? Upset? Mad?

Did you ever tell lies to OW about your W to justify your actions?

Did you lie to friends or family about W to justify your actions?

Thank you for your answers thus far. If you decide not to answer these questions I understand. I ask them in an effort to understand my W better and to help me cope with what has happened.

Thanks,
STTSI

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Oscar the Grouch ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"What I fear however, is that I am fooling myself into thinking that W loves me and that I am not the best option for the momment."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey I fool myself in beleiving that I'm going to be around for many years to come but the sad truth is that tomorrow just MAY be my last day on Earth.

Why not enjoy being with IMR2T on a day to day basis without worrying about tomorrow? Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring anyway.

Oscar has given you some really valuable insight into the thoughts of a WS. He has pretty well summed up my experience, too. But, I can't resist adding my $.02:

Did the A end on or around D-Day?

No, mine continued for about a year after D-Day. I'm an expert at ending an A--I did it six times.

Do you miss OW?

Somtimes. I can't control those feelings. But, I use them as an indicator that it is time to start talking with my wife about 'the things that matter most in life.' If I get the feelings, I reach out a little more for my W.

How do you look back at her? Loving? Happy? Upset? Mad?

With a lot of sadness. and sometimes with anger. Every day I wish I could go back and erase the A. I wish that I had simply dropped her off like she asked. I used to pretend that OW manipulated me and then I could be angry at her, but that isn't the truth.

Did you ever tell lies to OW about your W to justify your actions?

No, not really. Any H & W are going to have problems. So, I just told OW about the problems and left out the good.

Did you lie to friends or family about W to justify your actions?

No, not really. They weren't that interested. I think BS has an illusion that everyone is "watching the affair." Other people aren't that interested--everyone has there own garden to tend.