In the local paper this morning was an article entitled "Is there a formula for marriage?" It talks about boiling the entire mystery of a happy marriage down to 2 complex lines of algebra, and researchers (the Gottmans) claim it has a 94% success rate for forecasting compatibility. The formula was based on a decade of studying videotapes of 700 Seattle area couples. They never mention the formula itself, but there are many interesting observations.

Some interesting quotes include:

- The husband's ability to accept influence from his wife is crucial. Women are socialized to accept influence from men. A true partnership evolves when the H can do so as well.

- Guys who say "no" all the time tend to have levels of physiological arousal like higher heart rates...they can be aggressive or withdraw....guys who don't allow give and take are doomed.

- One thing all newlyweds should vow to do: refuse to accept hurtful behaviour. People who expect respect get it. And appeasement is not the strategy to follow if you want to repair damage to a relationship as soon as possible. Biting your tongue is not the answer. In relationships that don't work, people just take it and take it and take it.

- There are 3 basic types of marriage relationships: 1) Attack-Defend: One attacks, the other defends, these people stay together for an average of 5.2 years. 2) Silent-dead: Silence may be golden but it will kill a marriage. Silence will extend the life of a marriage, but won't save it. These coupels break up in an average of 16.6 years. 3) The Marriage Masters: These show humour and affection, even during arguments.

One last interesting suggestion in the article is that the minimum length of the break you should take if an argument with your spouse escalates too quickly is 20 minutes. It takes at least 20 minutes to physically return to normal from the accompanying racing heart physiological state of arousal. Also, don't stew, rehearsing thoughts to maintain the upset will only prolong the condition.

I know for me that I lived in an attack-defend relationship (where I was always defending), AND I was guilty of appeasement (giving in and/or taking it and taking it and taking it). I know that in any future relationship I must set clear boundaries and demand respect.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the article's suggestions?

Jen

Edited to add this link I found to the Gottmans' website: The Gottman Institute

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen I'm glad that you found that article enlightening because Dr John M. Gottman Ph.D. knows what he is talking about. His findings have been verified by other peers such as Dr Clifford Notarius Ph.D., Dr Howard Markman Ph.D., Dr Susan L. Blumberg Ph.D., and Dr Scott M Stanley Ph.D. who have conducted very similar studies of married couples.

If you are interested check out these books:

'Why Marriages Succeed Or Fail...And How You Can Make Yours Last' by Dr John Gottman Ph.D.

'We Can Work It Out' by Dr Clifford Notarius Ph.D. and Dr Howard Markman Ph.D.

'The Relationship Cure' by Dr John Gottman Ph.D.

'Fighting For Your Marriage' by Dr Howard J. Markman Ph.D, Dr Susan L Blumberg Ph.D. and Dr Scott M Stanley Ph.D.

Hi Jen - Interesting article - I read through and found that although my H and I have gone through periods of attack and defend and also silence, that we spend most of our time in the masters area now.

Interesting analysis on men's role in M. I have a great H who is open to influence. Thank God b/c he's taken these MB principles and followed them with me.

I believe that one behaviour that has worked well for me since the beginning of our M is that I told my H I would never put up with abuse of any kind. I would also never put up with a heavy drinker or anyone who treated me poorly. This was made clear from day one. My H has many friends who have spent a lot of time drinking, going out with the boys, leaving their wives as last in their priorities. He could have been influenced strongly by them, but chose not to.

I am a firm believer that we get treated how we let others treat us.

Guys who say "no" all the time tend to have levels of physiological arousal like higher heart rates...they can be aggressive or withdraw....guys who don't allow give and take are doomed.

My ex said no MUCH of the time and he has been labeled passive aggressive. We had an attack/defend marriage and to be honest I was the attacker. Which scares me because I don't want to be that way. But it is also hard because much of my attacking was due to his apathy and always saying no and not wanting to do anything. Of course not knowing everything about him and his struggles doesn't help a relationship flourish either. But I try now to really think on something before I attack or react. I know our marriage was NOT healthy in a LOT of ways.

Thanks Jen B for posting this. Most helpful insights.

... and what about wives who say "no" all the time? (he innocently asks) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, actually, it was a serious question, but I couldnt' help but put in the smiley.

I'm in an attack-defend marrage too - and also I appease ... big-time.

I'm trying to change that, but it seems to result in an attack-attack marriage instead. I have for some time now routinely left the house without a word when W gets violent. That calms things pretty well and she always appologizes - but I'm afraid it makes me too predictable - so that if she just wants to get me out of the house all she has to do is start slamming doors or breaking a few things.

I wish I had done that (walked out on abuse and violence) from the beginning, though - but maybe it wouldn't have worked. I remember the day she smashed $1200 worth of china. I wasn't home when she did it, but she was waiting by the door to see my reaction when I came in.

She is much calmer now!

The timing seems to be right on. We're about 4.8 years into this and I can see a scenario for D (at my initiation) at about 5.5 years. I just don't want to spend the rest of my life being attacked.

I'm a big fan of Gottman - and the scientific approach to these questions. I'm just not very good at applying his results to my marriage.

-AD

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

I wish I had done that (walked out on abuse and violence) from the beginning, though - but maybe it wouldn't have worked. I remember the day she smashed $1200 worth of china. I wasn't home when she did it, but she was waiting by the door to see my reaction when I came in.

Wow, ok that is beyond my attack mode. Wow.
I KNOW you have to love that verse in Proverbs....I have to say I didn't like it so much when I first read it a while ago- now I understand, accept and realize how true it is.

Hi Jen,

Thanks for this topic! Our marriage was very attack-defend. And it lasted 5.125 years. I started out on the attack, but strangely enough, we swapped roles and I ended up on the defense.

adgirl,

It (the big china bust) was a probably 4 years ago - and I shouldn't have mentioned it.

The last time she broke glassware was on Fathers' day - and it was one glass from a set of 40 which costs $10 (so, worth about 25 cents). Yes, it was fathers' day - and she threw it at me (with an admirable arm, I must say) from pretty much the opposite corner of the house. Our little one was running around barefoot, so I just took her and left for awhile. If I had caught the glass instead of dodging, I wouldn't have had to celebrate fathers' day with my daughter in McD's (just like some out-of-town divorced dad).

When I returned home, all was cleaned up and W was penitant. Nobody mentioned "fathers day" in my household that day or since.

-AD

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

I've been in an attack-defend M for 10.5 years. It gets ugly...

Anyway, we are in MC, and our assignment is to share our vision of a happy M. It should be interesting!

I started out on the attack, but strangely enough, we swapped roles and I ended up on the defense.

Strange, that was me too. We were married 2 years and 5 months- I guess mine ended sooner because you throw in OC and porn addiction that I knew nothing about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Our little one was running around barefoot, so I just took her and left for awhile. If I had caught the glass instead of dodging, I wouldn't have had to celebrate fathers' day with my daughter in McD's (just like some out-of-town divorced dad).

Ad, you don't need to "if" yourself. For heavens sake, the point is not whether you caught the glass or not!! The point is that that is out of control behavior, and dangerous too-a barefoot child could have been injured from one dumb move.
I think that is the saddest Fathers Day story I have ever heard. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Here's something from Dr John Gottman's 'Why Marriages Succeed or Fail':

The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalipse: Warning Signs

The First Horseman: Criticism - The difference between complaint and criticism is that a complaint is a specific statement of anger, displeasure, distress or other negativity. For example 'I am very upset that you didn't ask me about how my day went bust just talked about your day through all of dinner', while criticism is much less specific, it is more global, and it may have blaming in it. For example 'You never show any interest in me or my work. You just don't care about me'. The problems occur when criticism becomes so pervasive that it corrodes the marriage. When that happens it heralds the arrival of the other, more foreboding horseman that can drag you toward marital difficulty, contempt.

The Second Horseman: Contempt - What separates contempt from criticism is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your partner. Contempt can come through the following expressions:

1.Insults and Name-calling - These barbs are hard to miss: bi**h, [censored], jerk, wimp, fat, stupid, ugly. Some couples are cruder, others more creative. The result is the same. In a marriage, words such as these are such dangerous assault weapons that they ought to be outlawed.

2.Hostile Humor - Here the contempt is covered with the thin veil of comic releif.

3.Mockery - This is the art of the subtle put-down. The spouse's words or actions are made fun of and ridiculed, to show he or she is not respected or trusted. For example, after a husband tells his wife, "I really do care about you", she replies sarcastically, "Oh sure, you really do care about me".

4.Body Language - In its most subtle form, contempt is communicated with a few swift changes of the facial muscles. Signs of contempt or disgust include sneering, rolling your eyes, and curling your upper lip. For example a wife may sit quietly and offer her husband an occasional "go on, I'm listening" while he airs his grievances. But at the same time, she is picking lint off her skirt and rolling her eyes. Her true feelings, contempt, are written in body language.

In brief , the best way to neutralize your contempt is to stop seeing arguments with your spouse as a way to retaliate or exhibit your superior moral stance. Rather, your relationship will improve if you approach your spouse with precise complaints (rather than attacking your partner's character) and express a healthy dose of admiration, the opposite of contempt, for your spouse.

The Third Horseman: Defensiveness - If you are being bombarded with insults, the natural inclination is to defend yourself from attack "Leave me alone. What are you picking on me for? I didn't do anything wrong. It's not my fault." Defensive phrases and the attitude they express, tend to escalate a conflict rather than resolve anything. If you are being defensive (even if you feel completely righteous in your stance), you are adding to your marital troubles. Defensiveness can be in the following forms:

1.Denying Responsibility - No matter what your partner charges, you insist in no uncertain terms that you are not to blame. If your husband yells at you for not laundering his clothes, you shoot back that you never said you were going to. If your wife says you hurt her feelings with some comments you made at the party, you reply that you didn't say anything wrong.

2.Making excuses - In this defensive maneuver you claim that external circumstances beyond your control forced you to act in a certain way. Your husband attacks you for being irresponsible and always late. Your response "I couldn't get home on time because the freeway was jammed."(but why didn't you take an alternate route or leave extra time for the trip?). Your wife calls you a liar because you didn't tell her that you got a bonus at work. Your response "If I told you, you'd spend it all".

3.Disagreeing with Negative Mind Reading - Sometimes your spouse will make assumptions about your private feelings, behavior or motives. When this 'mind reading' is delivered in a negative manner it may trigger defensiveness in you. For example:

Husband: Well, what do you think about that? You hate it. I know you hate it. (negative mind reading)

Wife: It's not that I hate it. It's just that I hate to see your art go to waste.

Husband: But you think it's going to waste now in science fiction.(negative mind reading)

4.Cross-Complaining - This is a grown-up version of "so's your old man." You meet your partner's complaint (or criticism) with an immediate complaint of your own, totally ignoring what your partner has said. For example:

Wife: We don't ever have people over for dinner anymore. You're so antisocial.

Husband: No, it's just that you never clean up the place so we could.

5.Rubber Man/Rubber Woman - Remember that old playground saw "I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you"? In one move you manage to not only defend yourself from attack but blame your partner. So if your partner says he/she found your behavior at the party rude, you immediately counter with "I'm rude? You're the one who can't even remember to send my mother a birthday card."

6.Yes-Butting - A yes-but is any statement that starts off agreeing but ends up disagreeing. For example, suppose you think you did something you shouldn't have, but you have a morally justifiable reason that far outweighs the transgression:

Husband: You said you were going to fill up the gas tank and you didn't!.

Wife: Yes, but that's because I had to get home in time to make dinner for your parents.

7.Repeating Yourself - Rather than attempting to understand the spouse's point of view, couples who specialize in this technique simply repeat back their own position to each other again and again. Both think they are right and that trying to understand the other's perspective is a waste of time:

Wife: I think playing one day on the weekend is fine. But three or four nights a week is too much.

Husband: Well, that's not much. It's a minimum.

Wife: Not when you have two boys that need you home for dinner.

Husband: I'd like to be home for dinner always, but if you play golf you have to play regularly.

Wife: Well you don't have to play three or four times and then on the weekend. That's too much when you have a young family.

Husband: I have to play often otherwise it's not worth playing at all and I don't want to give up golf.

Both of them keep rephrasing and restating his or her point of view without paying an iota of attention to what the other is saying. They are hoping that if they express their opinion often enough (and loudly enough) eventually their partner will see the wisdom of their position and acquiesce.

8.Whining - This refers less to what you say than how you say it (childishly, with a high pitched nasal tone and stressing one syllable toward the end of the sentence. "You never take me anywhere." or "Why don't you listen to me?".

9.Body Language - Among the physical signs of defensiveness are a false smile (the corners of the mouth rise, but the eyes don't change), shifting the body from side to side (as if avoiding a punch), and folding your arms across your chest.

The Fourth Horseman: Stonewalling - Stonewalling often happens while a couple is talking. The stonewaller just removes himself by turning into a stone wall. Usually someone who is listening reacts to what the speaker is saying, looks at the speaker, and says thing like "Uh huh" or "Hmmmmm" to let the speaker know that he is tracking. But the stonewaller abandons these messages, replacing them with stony silence.

When we've interviewed stonewallers they often claim that they are trying to be "neutral" and not make things worse. They do not seem to realize that stonewalling itself is a very powerful act: it conveys disapproval, icy distance, and smugness. It is very upsetting to speak to a stonewalling listener. This is especially true when a man stonewalls a woman, and much less true when a woman stonewalls a man. Most men don't seem to get physiologically aroused when their wives stonewall them, but wive's heart rates go up dramatically when their husbands stonewall them. Furthermore, most stonewallers (about 85 percent of them) are men! So this is mainly a problem women have with their men. Once the fourth horseman becomes a regular resident, it takes a good deal of hard work and soul searching to save the marriage.

Our research has shown that men are more likely to become stonewallers than women. The reason, I beleive, may be biological. Men tend to be more physiologically overwhelmed than women by marital tension. For example, during confrontations a man's pulse rate is more likely to rise, along with his blood pressure. Therefore, men may feel greater, perhaps instinctive, need to flee from intense conflict with their spouse in order to protect their health. Keep in mind that anyone may stonewall occasionally during an intense marital exchange. The key word her is habitual.

What makes the four horsemen so deadly to a marriage, is not so much their unpleasantness but the intensive way they interfere with a couple's communication. They create a continuing cycle of discord and negativity that's hard to break through if you don't understand what is happening.

Thanks for posting that TMCM. Looking back, communication breaking down really is the primary reason my marriage went downhill. That frustrates me too though because my H and I used to be good at it. We used to talk through everything and anything, and then over time those darn horsemen started appearing I guess (I've certainly seen them all). I wish I could go back and identify when the first horseman arrived....so I don't let them into any future relationship. The only point at which I can identify where our relationship went downhill was when my H told me he was adding his first female companion to our marriage, under the guise of needing someone to exercise with, since I was too busy coaching basketball at work. Hmmm....

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"The only point at which I can identify where our relationship went downhill was when my H told me he was adding his first female companion to our marriage, under the guise of needing someone to exercise with, since I was too busy coaching basketball at work. Hmmm...."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was this before you kissed the first two OM's?

Yes, it was at least 6 months before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"The only point at which I can identify where our relationship went downhill was when my H told me he was adding his first female companion to our marriage, under the guise of needing someone to exercise with, since I was too busy coaching basketball at work. Hmmm...."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was this before you kissed the first two OM's?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...Hey, didn't you just post about horseman and how this kind of communication is ineffectual (cross complaining under defensiveness)? In any event, even as a factual question, it is irrelevant. Each individuals (in a relationship) behaviour stands alone. What her H did was wrong, period, makes no difference what jen was doing, or not doing. All one is required to do (in the sense of making healthy choices once the wheels come off) is correct whatever behaviour they see fit to correct, reassess the marriage at that point, and choose to stay or leave.

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb aren't you supposed to be in remedial 2x4 school? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"sufdb...Hey, didn't you just post about horseman and how this kind of communication is ineffectual (cross complaining under defensiveness)?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not married to Jen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>[b]Ad, you don't need to "if" yourself. For heavens sake, the point is not whether you caught the glass or not!! The point is that that is out of control behavior, and dangerous too-a barefoot child could have been injured from one dumb move.
I think that is the saddest Fathers Day story I have ever heard. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">adgirl,

I think my post didn't convey my real tone of thought. I'm not feeling any kind of remorse for not catching the thrown glass. I was just speculating on what might have been a pro-active approach to the situation. As for it being "the saddest ... story", well I had forgotten it until something on this thread reminded me of it.

-AD

TMCM,

Thanks for the repost of the horsemen.
All of them are here. Is there anyway to kill them off?

BTW. For me, "Stonewalling" is not an intentional action. It's simply exhaustion. There comes a point where my brain simply cannot make enough sense of the rant to give any kind of response.

-AD