When apologizing to your spouse is it best to say "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said/done that", or is it ok to qualify the apology by going on to point out what the hurt party did to cause the offender to do what he did?

I'm talking relatively small stuff here, not anything involving the A.

~aut

Although I'm not exactly "popular" around here I would still like to reply.

Whenever there is a need to apologize for something I feel it is important to give explanation as to why you acted or reacted the way you did. I would not qualify that as "justifying" your actions. You are simply informing the other person why you did something. Perhaps the other person did or said something to upset you without realizing it and it's important that they know how they're actions affected you in the hopes that a miscommunication will not occur again.

I would rather have someone tell me WHY they said or did something hurtful than for them to just say "Sorry".

My 2cents

Autumday here's something from Dr John Gottman's 'Why Marriages Succeed or Fail':

The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalipse: Warning Signs

The First Horseman: Criticism - The difference between complaint and criticism is that a complaint is a specific statement of anger, displeasure, distress or other negativity. For example 'I am very upset that you didn't ask me about how my day went bust just talked about your day through all of dinner', while criticism is much less specific, it is more global, and it may have blaming in it. For example 'You never show any interest in me or my work. You just don't care about me'. The problems occur when criticism becomes so pervasive that it corrodes the marriage. When that happens it heralds the arrival of the other, more foreboding horseman that can drag you toward marital difficulty, contempt.

The Second Horseman: Contempt - What separates contempt from criticism is the intention to insult and psychologically abuse your partner. Contempt can come through the following expressions:

1.Insults and Name-calling - These barbs are hard to miss: bi**h, [censored], jerk, wimp, fat, stupid, ugly. Some couples are cruder, others more creative. The result is the same. In a marriage, words such as these are such dangerous assault weapons that they ought to be outlawed.

2.Hostile Humor - Here the contempt is covered with the thin veil of comic releif.

3.Mockery - This is the art of the subtle put-down. The spouse's words or actions are made fun of and ridiculed, to show he or she is not respected or trusted. For example, after a husband tells his wife, "I really do care about you", she replies sarcastically, "Oh sure, you really do care about me".

4.Body Language - In its most subtle form, contempt is communicated with a few swift changes of the facial muscles. Signs of contempt or disgust include sneering, rolling your eyes, and curling your upper lip. For example a wife may sit quietly and offer her husband an occasional "go on, I'm listening" while he airs his grievances. But at the same time, she is picking lint off her skirt and rolling her eyes. Her true feelings, contempt, are written in body language.

In brief , the best way to neutralize your contempt is to stop seeing arguments with your spouse as a way to retaliate or exhibit your superior moral stance. Rather, your relationship will improve if you approach your spouse with precise complaints (rather than attacking your partner's character) and express a healthy dose of admiration, the opposite of contempt, for your spouse.

The Third Horseman: Defensiveness - If you are being bombarded with insults, the natural inclination is to defend yourself from attack "Leave me alone. What are you picking on me for? I didn't do anything wrong. It's not my fault." Defensive phrases and the attitude they express, tend to escalate a conflict rather than resolve anything. If you are being defensive (even if you feel completely righteous in your stance), you are adding to your marital troubles. Defensiveness can be in the following forms:

1.Denying Responsibility - No matter what your partner charges, you insist in no uncertain terms that you are not to blame. If your husband yells at you for not laundering his clothes, you shoot back that you never said you were going to. If your wife says you hurt her feelings with some comments you made at the party, you reply that you didn't say anything wrong.

2.Making excuses - In this defensive maneuver you claim that external circumstances beyond your control forced you to act in a certain way. Your husband attacks you for being irresponsible and always late. Your response "I couldn't get home on time because the freeway was jammed."(but why didn't you take an alternate route or leave extra time for the trip?). Your wife calls you a liar because you didn't tell her that you got a bonus at work. Your response "If I told you, you'd spend it all".

3.Disagreeing with Negative Mind Reading - Sometimes your spouse will make assumptions about your private feelings, behavior or motives. When this 'mind reading' is delivered in a negative manner it may trigger defensiveness in you. For example:

Husband: Well, what do you think about that? You hate it. I know you hate it. (negative mind reading)

Wife: It's not that I hate it. It's just that I hate to see your art go to waste.

Husband: But you think it's going to waste now in science fiction.(negative mind reading)

4.Cross-Complaining - This is a grown-up version of "so's your old man." You meet your partner's complaint (or criticism) with an immediate complaint of your own, totally ignoring what your partner has said. For example:

Wife: We don't ever have people over for dinner anymore. You're so antisocial.

Husband: No, it's just that you never clean up the place so we could.

5.Rubber Man/Rubber Woman - Remember that old playground saw "I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you"? In one move you manage to not only defend yourself from attack but blame your partner. So if your partner says he/she found your behavior at the party rude, you immediately counter with "I'm rude? You're the one who can't even remember to send my mother a birthday card."

6.Yes-Butting - A yes-but is any statement that starts off agreeing but ends up disagreeing. For example, suppose you think you did something you shouldn't have, but you have a morally justifiable reason that far outweighs the transgression:

Husband: You said you were going to fill up the gas tank and you didn't!.

Wife: Yes, but that's because I had to get home in time to make dinner for your parents.

7.Repeating Yourself - Rather than attempting to understand the spouse's point of view, couples who specialize in this technique simply repeat back their own position to each other again and again. Both think they are right and that trying to understand the other's perspective is a waste of time:

Wife: I think playing one day on the weekend is fine. But three or four nights a week is too much.

Husband: Well, that's not much. It's a minimum.

Wife: Not when you have two boys that need you home for dinner.

Husband: I'd like to be home for dinner always, but if you play golf you have to play regularly.

Wife: Well you don't have to play three or four times and then on the weekend. That's too much when you have a young family.

Husband: I have to play often otherwise it's not worth playing at all and I don't want to give up golf.

Both of them keep rephrasing and restating his or her point of view without paying an iota of attention to what the other is saying. They are hoping that if they express their opinion often enough (and loudly enough) eventually their partner will see the wisdom of their position and acquiesce.

8.Whining - This refers less to what you say than how you say it (childishly, with a high pitched nasal tone and stressing one syllable toward the end of the sentence. "You never take me anywhere." or "Why don't you listen to me?".

9.Body Language - Among the physical signs of defensiveness are a false smile (the corners of the mouth rise, but the eyes don't change), shifting the body from side to side (as if avoiding a punch), and folding your arms across your chest.

The Fourth Horseman: Stonewalling - Stonewalling often happens while a couple is talking. The stonewaller just removes himself by turning into a stone wall. Usually someone who is listening reacts to what the speaker is saying, looks at the speaker, and says thing like "Uh huh" or "Hmmmmm" to let the speaker know that he is tracking. But the stonewaller abandons these messages, replacing them with stony silence.

When we've interviewed stonewallers they often claim that they are trying to be "neutral" and not make things worse. They do not seem to realize that stonewalling itself is a very powerful act: it conveys disapproval, icy distance, and smugness. It is very upsetting to speak to a stonewalling listener. This is especially true when a man stonewalls a woman, and much less true when a woman stonewalls a man. Most men don't seem to get physiologically aroused when their wives stonewall them, but wive's heart rates go up dramatically when their husbands stonewall them. Furthermore, most stonewallers (about 85 percent of them) are men! So this is mainly a problem women have with their men. Once the fourth horseman becomes a regular resident, it takes a good deal of hard work and soul searching to save the marriage.

Our research has shown that men are more likely to become stonewallers than women. The reason, I beleive, may be biological. Men tend to be more physiologically overwhelmed than women by marital tension. For example, during confrontations a man's pulse rate is more likely to rise, along with his blood pressure. Therefore, men may feel greater, perhaps instinctive, need to flee from intense conflict with their spouse in order to protect their health. Keep in mind that anyone may stonewall occasionally during an intense marital exchange. The key word her is habitual.

What makes the four horsemen so deadly to a marriage, is not so much their unpleasantness but the intensive way they interfere with a couple's communication. They create a continuing cycle of discord and negativity that's hard to break through if you don't understand what is happening.

autumnday,

I understand the urge.... but I think we have to suppress it.

"I'm sorry, but" is not an appology. It is a justification.

Sometimes you have to wait until you can just say "I'm sorry."

Somebody (maybe Dr. Harley) put it this way. Imagine that you and your spouse are working in the kitchen and you suddenly turn just at the same moment as he is bending over to get something out of the dishwasher and you hit him in the eye with your elbow.

He yells "OW!"

Do you say. "I'm sorry, but you shouldn't have snuck up behind me like that. I didn't know you were there."

Or

"I'm sorry! Man, that's gotta hurt. Are you OK? Can I get you an icebag or something?"

The thing is : He is hurt. First, deal with the injury (physical or other "hurt"). All the rest - the explaination is just something to justify yourself.

Now, I know it's particulary hard if, instead of saying "OW!", he says "You stupid b**h! You think you can get away with hitting me!?"

But still, "I'm sorry, but" is not an appology.

(in my opinion)

-AD

TMCM~

Thanks for the reference. Sounds like a good book, I will have to look for it. As usual, you know where I'm going with a question.

AD~

Your reasoning is also my reasoning. I'm sure we've all done the "BUT" at some time or another. My H happens to do it most of the time. A few nights ago while we were trying to organize some folders on our pc, and disagreeing on the method, he said, "you don't know anything about computers". He said it with a harsh, condescending tone.

I've been feeling hurt, thinking he thinks I'm stupid, when I know I'm not. It has bothered me since, but I didn't bring it up to him till this morning. He said, "I'm sorry, but you frustrate me. I know what I'm doing on the computer, been doing it way longer than you, you don't listen to me, nor do it my way, etc, etc."

It bugs me, and hurts that he cannot simply say he's sorry. He sounds sincere at first, even saying I'm sorry honey , but then he goes to the "BUT". Also, when he does this, a lot of times it's like he's reminded of his initial frustration, gets mad all over again...it's like he's taking his apology back, because he seems justified. Many times this leads to an argument, where there wasn't even one to begin with.

Of course, since I'm the one that had the A, I feel guilty even getting my feelings hurt, and like I don't have a right to bring it up when I do get hurt. Yet I know I can't just bury things or they may come back to haunt us. I don't want the same M as pre-A, however this topic is a classic of pre-A.

He still has never thrown the A in my face, just other little things. Am I being a big cry baby with this? Should I just suck it up, and remember his other awesome qualities?

Diamond Girl~

I understand what you're saying too, as far as keeping the lines of communication open. I don't expect my H to just apologize to me, but never reveal his feelings. I want to discuss matters, it happens to be an EN of mine. I want to know what he's thinking. I just don't understand why he can't say I'm sorry without essentialy blaming me for his actions.

Don't worry, I'm in the dark as to why you're not popular on the boards. I haven't had a chance to check out many threads lately.

Take good care.

Thanks,
~autumnday

AD I think it's important that you be totally honest with your H for how his 'apology' of "I'm sorry, but you frustrate me. I know what I'm doing on the computer, been doing it way longer than you, you don't listen to me, nor do it my way, etc, etc." did not make you feel better because you felt like he was instead trying to justify his behavior. Convey to him that if instead he had said "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by letting my frustrations get the better of me. Please forgive me" it would have healed your emotional wound much faster.

Nothing on this earth infuriates me more than a "I'm sorry but..."

Those statements are immediately translated "I have a good reason for waht I did and you have no right to be offended".

I agree with AD

"I'm sorry but..." is a HUGE lovebuster for me. This is something my wife has struggled with since we were married. Only since the changes we made after my affair is she willing to admit that she is actually fallible and has reason to apologize.

I believe it should be banned from ALL marital vocabulary forever.

Low

AD,

I think you need to announce that everyone in your family is going on a diet until they lose there...but's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And then proceed not to cook dinner, Oh! I guess you could feed the little one, he cannot talk so he isn't guilty YET. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Seriously, this is something you need to talk to H about. You could tell him, that you know he feels the need to apologize for things such as the computer issues, and you would love to have one, IF he could be kind enough to proclaim one. He will look at you and wonder, what is this woman talking about. Then explain about the "I'm sorry...but" and how it is not an apology but an accusation.

You both need to address this issue. But do address it now so that you can then threaten him the next time he does it with "Are you ready to diet until you lose your but???" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh AD,my take on this is you do have weapons, you just need to wrap them in humor.

By the way, you can always argue this computer "thingy" is nothing but a glorified filing cabinet, and you do know how to file things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have some fun with this, while also getting to the bottom of it as well, then you won't have any "buts". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

I often tell Mr. Ark...

"I am sorry but you ARE a jerk..."

see how the postive " I'm sorry...
balances out the negative...

the part about him being a " jerk "

works for me alllll the time..

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK