starman:

I don't think it's the wrong way 2 think about it at all. It's great that your W is talking 2 SH, but even that will take some time.

Is she still bar-hopping? That's a pretty imma2re behavior for a M'd woman, particularly one that's been known 2 have As with OMs she meets in bars. I would think that that habit would have 2 end utterly before you could reconcile.

...then, as most have suggested, just date for a while and see how that goes.

-2long

Would it just be easier to start over? In some ways yes, and in others, no. But your wife may just decide it's finally time to leave the cocoon and might just emerge as a beautiful butterfly. She may be capable of changing more than you can imagine. She might become someone completely different from who she is today. It's completely her choice...but it is possible.

You saw SOMETHING in her when you married her. She's certainly got potential to become the woman you deserve.

Still, your caution and distance is still a good idea at this point. Who knows what tomorrow will bring!

Ifelt the same way as you do, that this is my chance to find someone better for me. I thought "Now I can find a woman who is better suited to me, lower maintenance, a better lover and less emotional baggage."

But the truth of it is that W and I found eachother because we off set one another, she is the ying to my yang. I agree with Hope that you saw something in her at one point, is that something still there burried under all those hurtful things?

It is good that she is talking with SH. Give them some time working together before you make your final choice. Remember as others have said to me, you can always walk away later but at least you know that you tried your best at every chance.

Starman if there is something that my 45 years of life on this planet have taught me is that people don't value what is usually given freely to them. Your WW MUST EARN her way back to your heart by doing everything to change for the better. This is not only for your benefit for hers as well. Words are pretty and touching but it isACTIONS, ACTIONS, ACTIONS that must be the real litmus test that shows if her efforts are sincere.

I agree with the finish the divorce advice. You are allready "divorced", so why not complete the paperwork. Then you can date each other if you wish, and consider her as a mate just as you would any other women you might consider. IMO divorce (when the marriage has pretty much failed) is a worthy means of clearing the air, and leveling the playing feild. It eliminates all the inescapable expectations we carry when we are "married", and makes the true nature of the relationship more clear.

Another consideration, and one there is no way to accurately assess (unless you can read minds) is whether your stbxw is really marriage material, or is just wanting to park herself back with you for the benefits you provide, and she will only do as much as needed to keep you vested....until such time as you no longer suit her. This would be a character issue, and you have ample data to determine whether she is a relationship "user" or not....it appears she is....this is one of those things that rarely change, because it is who a person is, how they focus, narcissim essentially. Narcissists are capable of being great partners, for a time, when it suits them to do so, such as now. IMO observing and dating her as a single person for a long time, will reveal what you need to know, and even if she does "change" you may not really want to be married to her anyways. It makes me uneasy to read your "reasons" because they sound dutiful, and about her....not your well-being. Likewise her "reasons" were all about her well-being, IMO that is a redflag. Also (as others have said), by "taking her back" you have removed the her experienceing the consequences of her actions....and that in itself may torpedo her changes, she needs to experience consequences, not be protected from them, that (if anything) is how people change....frankly I think she is playing you, not necessarily maliciously, or with evil intent...but playing you nonetheless.

Lastly, you may owe it to yourself to explore some freindships with other women, thereby finding out more about yourself, and how you fit in a relationship. Obviously you cannot do that if dating a "wife" but you can if dating an exW.

<small>[ October 08, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Even if you choose to divorce her, it doesn't have to be final. I have friends who divorced, saw other people, realized that they were right for each other, dated, and remarried. It is now working very well for them.

It was interesting to read the post by sufdb. There is one person close to me that I have relied on for advice and counsel through this, that being my father. Everyone else close to me is too emotional to really deal with this in a constrctive manner. I know that my Dad is biased towards me too, but he is also as gentle and level headed a person as I have ever met.

When I told him what had been happening I was shocked by his reply. He told me that he had never cared much for my W because of the way she has always treated me and even the kids. It surprised me because I never knew he felt this way. He was always encouraging and never anything but polite and even loving towards my W. He said that he could see that I loved her and felt it was his job to be supportive and helpful any way he could and saw no point in telling a grown man how to live his life.

As I have talked with him over these months he has said repeatedly how narcissistic my W has always been. As a matter of fact he said that she is the most narcissistic person he has ever met. I asked him some time ago what he thought the chances were of someone like this changing. He said that he is a big believer that people can change there behavior and the way they see the world as they grow older. But he sees this being such a problem for my W, so much a part of who she is he has NO hope that she will ever change. He said that he was just telling me what he sees and that he will be completely supportive of me no matter what I decide to do.

It does help to get some perspective from others who have seen my W and known her for all of her adult life. I do believe that there are things about a person that they could hide, even from people as sharp as the Harley's for a pretty long time. Things that in the long term of a relationship would make it impossible to function the way it should. At least my eyes are open now and I know that staying together just for the kids is no way to live for anyone.

Starman can women such as your WW and my XWW (both of whom have engaged in multiple affairs) change themselves for the better? Of course they can IF they want the change bad enough. What are the odds that it will happen while they are still married? IMNSHO very slim and I say this because old habits are very hard to break if there are no costs to be paid for their continued existence. In my situation I can tell you with absolute certainty that it was my divorce from my multiple-affair XWW that was a catalyst that brought her to change herself for the better. How do I know this? Because it came straight from the horse's mouth, my XWW. In all the years that we were married, she never valued the marriage because deep down inside she always beleived that we would always be married to each other, so she though 'Why fight to protect and nurture the marriage?'. It wasn't until after the divorce, her emotional meltdown and recovery, and finding out that I was engaged to another woman, that her false beleif was shattered forever and had to accept and come to terms with the consequences of her actions. Today she is a much healthier woman and light years better mother than she was when we were still married. So as you can see, there are situations where divorce can be a force for good.