My H is being scary. He says that he is being honest with me. He says that he "cares" for me but feels like he is "in love" with the OW. He feels like he is not being fair to me because I'm basically "a good person and I am trying so hard" but it is not working. He does not feel that my love for him is "authentic" that it is not "in me" to "love him". You guys know how hard I've worked on my marriage. Why is it that he can't see my love for him.

I rocked him and held him as he cried. He just left and things seemed better. There is a plan to proceed this afternoon with finally putting all our bank accounts together. However, it was like he wanted me to agree again to a separation.

I told him that "caring" about me was enough for right now.

I don't know what to do.

He said that the thing about her is that he was number one to her. That she really seemed to care.

HELP!!!

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

He's depressed .... get him to his MD.

Pep

Contact warning sirens going off!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lexxxy:
<strong>Contact warning sirens going off!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this .... AND he's depressed.

She found a way to reach him.

Pep

He won't admit to the contact. I believe that it occurred too.

So what should I say or do?

What should my thinking be?

Has your H counseled with Steve or Jen?

Call them and arrange.... don't "argue" feelings with him .... just be supportive for now.

Get a pro involved..... recovery is HARD!!!!!

Pep

Mimi,

Welcome to Recovery. Oooppsss. I already did that a few weeks ago when your husband came home.

Okay let me try again...Welcome to the first stages of recovery. I am also in the first stages of recovery, six months after my wife came home. And I havent handled it well until lately. But let me take your post and show you that your FWH is right on track, if you handle this correctly (which I think you did).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H is being scary. He says that he is being honest with me. He says that he "cares" for me but feels like he is "in love" with the OW. He feels like he is not being fair to me because I'm basically "a good person and I am trying so hard" but it is not working. He does not feel that my love for him is "authentic" that it is not "in me" to "love him".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This came from page 2056 of the WS Script Book. My wife is STILL speaking these words! Six months later. Is Lexxxy right and there might be contact? Sure. I have asked myself the same thing. But, most of the time, she proves to me that it isnt true (plus a little snooping on my own).

Mimi, from what I read, and my own experience so far with recovery, this is NORMAL. I told you when you entered recovery, to be ready. It will be almost harder than Plan A/B. There seems to always be a honeymoon period when they first come back. We had it for several weeks in April. SF, affection, working on the marriage...all of it. Then depression set in (withdrawal). She started pulling away some. Our first reactions as BS (and I did this and have jeopardized our recovery) is to have fire alarms going off, saying she is going to run again. But she didnt. But during these times, I got real defensive...I started pressing. Up until then, I was just happy with her presence. When she started turning like that, I started to get demanding...my Taker came out in full view.

Unfortunately, the Fog is terrible! And it continues into recovery. I have likened it to a BIG "WRONG" SANDWICH. They have come home...but still not faced fully the guilt of what they have done. It is a huge sandwich they have to eat. There is no way they can eat it all at once. As a matter of fact, the sandwich tastes terrible and leaves them feeling sick. So they want nothing to do with it at first.

But if we leave them alone in this, they eventually see that the sandwich wont go away until it is eaten. So, they try to get you to help eat it. So, after the honeymoon period, they begin to push some of the blame for the affair (or all) on the BS. They want YOU to eat it, or at least help.

But, if the BS is smart, they dont bite. They just keep on keeping on. And eventually the WS has to start eating. A very humbling experience. And painful. And it will take time to eat that huge sandwich, months, maybe even years. they have to eat it at their own pace.

My wife and I have been having it VERY rough lately. Lots of arguments...all the same things. We are talking to Steve about every 10 days, as he guides us thru this.

Steve's advice to me is just stay out of his way. He needs me to be consistent, even when she is not. That he needs to build a new foundation under her, because her old one with OM is now gone, and the one we had together is long gone. And thus, your response to your FWH was perfect.

Let me give you a more extreme example. Yesterday, my wife, who was mad because we didnt get to celebrate her birthday Sunday (I told her we would do it this next weekend...I had military duty this last weekend). But it was still a sore point (the military thing is one of the things that led to her wanting out in the first place...I am rectifying this, by retiring in December). Anyway, she was pretty silent the last few days. Then 4am yesterday morning, as she got up to get ready for work, she started in on me. I knew she was tired, so I had gotten up with her, I started some clothes in the dryer, and even ironed her scrubs (she's a nurse). It was after her shower that she laid into me again, but this time it was worse than ever.

She told me again about not loving me, that she didnt have intimate feelings for me. She told me that this just wasnt going to work. She said she was wrong, and bad, and sinful, etc. that it is all her fault. But she just couldnt do this. SHe said she didnt want to talk to Steve anymore...that it was a waste of time. And then she said it..."I want a divorce now."

If I hadnt of talked to Steve last week, I would not have been prepared for this. But I was. I responded much like you did. I told her that I still loved her. That I believe in us, and what Steve is doing with us. That I do not believe in divorce, and will not participate in it. That I am still here working at this, trying to mend these fences. And so on.

She then started trying to push me, tried to get me to say something, or strike back in anger or pain. But I held my fire. I just jumped back in bed, told her I loved her...and I went back to sleep.

That afternoon, as she left work to come home, she called me from her cell phone. She said she was sorry for sniping at me, that she was PMSing, and had a lot of stress from work and school...as well as the disappointment of last weekend. I just told her again that I loved her.

She came home, and we held each other on the couch while watching TV. She starts talking about what was coming up the rest of the week. And then asks me to move the appointment with Steve Friday to next week, so that her and I can work on our homework together that he told us to do, but we havent had time to do. I was about to say something like "I thought you didnt want to talk to him anymore," but that would have been a huge LB. No, I just told her that I would move it.

I then told her that I knew it was rough for her. That this isnt easy for her, and probably very painful. I told her that I am still here, like I always have been. And if she will try, and continue to try, to work with me and let Steve help guide us, that we can find what we had...and maybe even better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You guys know how hard I've worked on my marriage. Why is it that he can't see my love for him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He can. He really can. So, dont get upset...dont fire back. That will only make him put up walls. Keep on keeping on. It is that love you have for him that is drawing him home, and closer to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I rocked him and held him as he cried. He just left and things seemed better. There is a plan to proceed this afternoon with finally putting all our bank accounts together. However, it was like he wanted me to agree again to a separation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember the "wrong" sandwich? Remember the fact that it is VERY painful what he is going through. He wants you to take that away from him. But you cant. He wants you to be the bad guy, as my wife has told me on several occasions that "if you were a real man and knew that I didnt love you, you would be the one to move out." Dont help him through it. He has to eat EVERY bite. Just be there after he takes a bite...and hold him like you did. Little do you know, but it was what you said to him, and holding him, the deposited a HUGE sum in his LB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him that "caring" about me was enough for right now.

I don't know what to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you do...exactly what you did.

Mimi, you are headed down the road that I am. I am only about a mile ahead of you. Hang in there. It is very bumpy at first. But over time, I have found from others who have been through this that the road gets smoother. I jsut read the recovery parts of the MB website again. And it says this process could take 6 months to two years. This is for the long haul.

I'm with you Mimi. We want them to just instantaneously wake up...but they cant. We have to just continue to be patient.

In His arms.

<small>[ October 09, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Just to let you know my thoughts are with you, mimi. What could I post after Mortarman? You have been following him for a long time. He is further down the road, and he is telling you that it does get smoother. Believe and follow.

Mimi,

Gonna tell you some hard stuff so make sure you are firmly grounded.

Your H's actions show he is not ready for recovery. Not the kind you want and need. He still has an attachment to the she-devil and they both know it. How he chooses to tell you will always hurt. His weak reasons are just that weak.

Now I will tell you that this go around will not hurt as long as the last time. But it will hurt and you may hit the anger stage faster and harder.

Learn to control your temper, though your anger is justified. You may feel that you wasted your time and energies to now lose him again. But that is not true.

Your recovery has been ongoing and there is no need to step backwards there. So what I am about to suggest may be very UNMB but here goes:

1. Send your H away. He will probably go to the OW and you want her to meet all his needs.

2. Do not enter into a financial agreement with him.

3. Let him waste his time setting house again somewhere else. This will take a toll on him but he needs that.

4. He is probably pushing you to kick him out and this is a weak man's excuse. Acknowledge to him that you know he is weak so with that thought you are showing him the door.

5. If you have the strength to pull it off, the sooner the better. See that sends the A downhill faster. The OW will be forced to meet his needs maybe sooner than she is ready. She probably wants you to do some of her dirty work but don't give her that chance. Let him go to her with less $$ and less things.

6. He will look pitiful but no more than before.

7. Remember you survived the last go around and you will survive this one.

8. Do NOT let the OW try to control you.

9. Prepare for the fact that the OW may try to contact you. Plan your actions as much as possible.

10. Implemement plan B.

Hugz,
L.

I had a tearful night. I did eventually lose it, threatening to kill OW and myself. I just felt so devastated and still do. I feel pretty hopeless about where to turn in my life. Everybody I know told me not to believe in H and I did. I feel embarassed and like such a fool that I don't even want to show my face.

I've remained steadfast with him about wanting to work on the M but it seems pointless. He says that he does not want to work on it. He wants to be with her and that's it. That he really tried. He seems excited today about me letting him go and him having the chance to be with her. Leaving me alone again and them going about their merry way. He says he feels tremendous resentment towards me and wants me to pay for how bad I treated him before the A. I've still been saying I want to work on it.

I just don't know what to do.

We have an appt. with Steve H. in about an hour. H says that when Steve hears how he really feels that I will understand the need to let him go. I told him that he owed me to have this one session with Steve.

He's saying things like he's changed, meaning changed into a person that does not want to have a relationship with his children. He does not want to do what's right or to be good he says. Sounds to me like desperation to get the drug no matter what.

This is awful!!!

Keep this thought
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds to me like desperation to get the drug no matter what </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't have said it better. He has not lasted through withdrawal. They think they are so GOOD for each other...just waiti until their selfish lives collide again...still the same problems. Sure it's going to be great with them at first, and then...reality will strike again.

Stick with Steve. You can make it through this false recovery. You can make some changes too.

You are the awesome one! Become better at being you!!! Let them wallow in their mire. Their R built on guilt and secrets will be just what they deserve. Then when he wants to come back again...make him try harder. Don't let him right back in, make him deserve YOU!

Mimi,

Come back on and tell us what Steve says.

Again, I think we are having similar recoveries. Actually, you arent fully in recovery because he hasnt gone thru withdrawal yet. My wife has. So, I am on the other side of that.

Withdrawal, from any sort of "drug," is a VERY dangerous time. they will want it so bad...and many fail many times to move away from it. I was lucky in the fact that my wife, while going thru withdrawal, had also found that her and OM really needed to be apart. So it has been hard on her.

Your husband may fall off the horse again here. I believe Steve will tell you to stick to your guns, hang on. Your WH is trying to go through a very painful process. Like I said above, to him...it is almost easier for you to let him go, then for him to confront your issues and to work through this. DO NOT HELP HIM LET GO...DO NOT LET HIM GO.

You keep on message...keep on loving him, being there...working on the issues. Dont blow up anymore...this is Plan A again...until he is through with the withdrawal and fully moving into recovery.

If he decides to start up with OW and take off, then it is back to Plan B for you. And like was said above, this time...you are not to do ANYTHING for or with him.

He will go back to her, and then miss you. And he will be in pain no matter where he goes. And unlike the OW, you have shown that you are willing to stand by him as he goes thru that. You think she will put up with his moaning and groaning for you? Not a chance.

So, come back on and let us know what happened with Steve. I am having and have had similar problems, although my wife hasnt said she wanted to leave for anyone...just threatened divorce because she cant take it anymore.

Withdrawal is tough. On both the WS and the BS.

In His arms.

mimi:

I don't have a lot 2 ad 2 the amazing responses you've gotten so far (and I do mean amazing: Mortarman, I'm so proud of your tenacity, your adherence 2 what you know 2 be right for you; and Orchid, essentially opposite advice, but from experience, and very potent and efficaceous at getting the "job" done. BOTH "pro-MB" suggestions, in my view).

I will be interested in hearing what SH has 2 say. I honestly don't have a clue what he might suggest in this case.

It's odd, but I find myself thinking that si2ations like these should be taken as blessings rather than curses. I've been told so often that recovery is a lot harder, initially, than early post D-day, and since my sitch doesn't FEEL like it's harder, I find myself wondering if it's really recovery at all. But then I have the nearly 2 years I've been here 2 fall back on. All the things I've read and heard about. How these si2ations play themselves out. How different people's rollercoasters have different ampli2des. And so it seems 2 me that those of you who have had the highest highs and the lowest lows are lucky in a way. But only because by comparison, it seems 2 me that my rollercoaster ride in the past months has been so subtle that it's hard for me 2 "judge" what's really happening - where we are. But that's just a perspective view - the grass is browner on the other side of my fence, or so it seems.

Mimi, I haven't posted a lot to you because your si2ation is more "typical" than mine is, and so advice from people like Mortarman and Orchid is more applicable than anything I could offer from my experiences. But I definitely didn't want 2 let this development go by without offering you my support. You are a much stronger person than you give yourself credit for.

I agree that you've said all the right things as you've told us in your posts from yes2rday. It's also true that you are human, with human limitations. You may not be able 2 keep this up. ...but somehow I think you will.

Best regards 2 you and your family in this difficult time,
♥2long

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by mimi1254:
He says he feels tremendous resentment towards me and wants me to pay for how bad I treated him before the A.

What a load of crap! DO NOT BUY THIS BIG STINKY LOAD .... not one bit! Unless you were standing over him with a weapon, HE made these stupid choices, and HE must own them.

He's saying things like he's changed, meaning changed into a person that does not want to have a relationship with his children.

He's being an [censored].... trying to sabotage his life because he has sold his self-esteem down the river with his values! THIS MAN is DEPRESSED!

He does not want to do what's right or to be good he says. Sounds to me like desperation to get the drug no matter what.

I agree. He is depressed without his "fix" .... and there has been some contact. She "needs" him .... I'm sure.

This is awful!!!

Yes, but not too much of a surprise. If he wants to be fence sitting .... he's certainly not going to make any recovery effort. You can do this Mimi.

Don't kill anyone, just live well.

If he does go "back" to her .... go darker than midnight .... and "she" can have his sorry deptressed [censored] for fun! He will NOT be happier there .... He will be as miserable as he is now, or worse.

He needs medication and medical care, but he won't go .... YOU be tough!

Pep

Mimi, I'm so sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But this too is not unique. I said and did many of the same things. We had several false recoveries. He's a depressed man going through withdrawl...he needs help.

Good luck.

Hi Mimi,

I agree with Pepper about the depression. I believe that this stage is the absolute worst stage of this whole affair/recovery process. Keep your focus on YOUR goals and enlist the aid of whoever can support you to reach them.

This is devastating, I know. But Mimi, you have choices every step of the way. My personal opinion is that you have everything it takes to go after your true goals even though that isn't the easier road to take. But just because you CAN doesn't mean you HAVE to. But Mimi, you CAN if you CHOOSE to because you have what it takes to continue, even during this torturous part of the recovery process.

I hope your h gets treatment for the depression, for your sake as well as for his.

Take care Mimi, especially now

Hi,my friends:

We had well over an hour and a half session with Steve H. I don't know how that happened. Steve surely went over today but it was well worth it I think for us.

My H really hooked up with Steve. He said that Steve "validated" him. They talked alone first and then asked me to get on the phone.

Steve sort of let me have it! He pointed out to me how I am basically making my H want to leave. He feels that I need to give my H the leadership in the home, that I need to stop letting my son be in charge. I've fixed every problem area in the marriage except for this one. Steve says that he understands my H not feeling loved because I am not supporting him. He had me to "demonstrate" handing over the leadership to my husband. My H accepted the job.

Just by chance my son came in and began his acting out while we were talking to Steve. I "let" my husband handle it and my son did back down in response to him.

I don't get the sense that Steve thinks that H is planning to leave immediately. H did not know how to be relieved of his pain over the powerlessness or rather ineffectiveness that he has been feeling as a husband,father and a man. He came home to rightfully take over these roles again and feels that I have been sabotaging this by allowing our son to continue to be so awful. Really I haven't known what to do to stop my son. Steve agrees that my son needs "manhandling". Steve says that we have to deal with this first, that whether or not H is "in love" with the OW is not important at this point. He says that he knows that is difficult for me to understand. I think it has to do with my H being depressed.

Now my H seems more depressed than ever but is not talking about leaving. He is talking more about the part that he played in our family problems and sees the value of us trying to work on things.

It's going to be tough but as of righ now we're continuing to move forward.

Mimi:

I think this is the coolest thing about phone-in counseling with SH: He can run overtime with you if he feels it's important.

Important? Saving a M on the brink? Heck yes it's important! But I realized after reading your post that this kind of si2ation is exactly why phone counseling is so much better than office counseling - it's flexible.

Yes, the road ahead will be rough. It's still very uncertain. But I see lots of reasons for hope in what you've told us.

Keep hanging in there!
-2long

Whew! Mimi, thank God you are talking to Steve Harley. It sounds like he has zeroed right in on the problem. And how wonderful that he seems to understand your H. Mimi, you need a big hug, girl, you have been through hell!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{MIMI}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I will say a prayer for you and your family, Mimi. Its going to work out. Take care.