Been thinking again... I know it's a dangerous thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Here goes: What EA/PA pattern did you experience as either the WS or BS?

For myself as a BS:

1. This A had more EA than PA.

2. So going by month, the pattern looked more like: EA PA E/PA(for approx 9 months) EA EA E/PA EA E/PA E/PA EA E/PA ...... THEN E/PA EA EA THEN KABOOM!

My question is how much did the EA play out? In the case I experienced, the EA caused the e-mails, voicemails, phone calls, drive bys, pseudo prego threats, stalking, hang up calls, false charges, purgery, false reports, dirty laundry, suicide attempts.... the lying, cheating, stealing, etc.

My thought is the greater the EA, the harder the A is on the BS. Of course in most cases the EA is the stronger tie that binds the A. I think if we can get that point across to the new ones, they won't have to spend soo much time in pain and work on spending more time on their personal recovery. I am looking for that 'way' to help shorten the intensity and length of the initial pain from d/d.

Does any of this make sense?
L.

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by Orchid:

Does any of this make sense?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh?

You have all that info cuz you are looking back.

Most people who just get here don't know what they are up against. They are still in the midst of lies, cover-ups, and fog-speak.

Most WS don't reveal what the length of time, the reality of physical contact, etc.

I agree with what you're saying....I just don't think people who just had d-day have that info yet.

The EA was pretty well winding down just about the time of d-day. The fantasy was running out of gas, and my WH was feeling trapped in his affair. OW wanted more than an affair, and WH just wanted an affair.

The EA was very strong for about a year .... and I sometimes wonder, what would have happened had I discovered the A while my H was still in the fog ..... hmmmmm

Consequently, our D-day was NC right from the start. WH was relieved.... I insisted he get out of the A-mess, or get out of the M.

PLUS .... I am one mean woman ... and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned .... a red-headed woman scorned .... an Irish-red-headed woman scorned!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I suffer from extremely high self-esteem .... and this helped recovery up to a point, then my pride got in the way of my recovery for awhile.

Also, I know I could live comfortably on my salary .... and that gave me confidence and power.

EA .... I donno .... somewhere around 20 years on a low-level. Around 12 months like a ball of fire.

PA 18 months .... and he was getting tired of her needs which were increasing .... but, he liked the sex! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep

5/3/01 Sophia propositions Tom
discussion about what to do; secret contact without me
9/11/01 First passionate kiss
lots of e-mail and phone contact; several park visits for kissing and breast touching
12/17/01 Tom breaks my arm when we are arguing about her
January Affair goes to oral sex; Tom breaks off
at end of month (According to Tom, he felt bad about the broken arm and went to Sophia for comfort. It is true that I wasn't too happy with him.)
April Tom initiates contact; oral sex; much more intense get-togethers
May 3 D-day

Supposedly the only contact after D-day was in March of this year. Not clear if in person or on phone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EA .... I donno .... somewhere around 20 years on a low-level. Around 12 months like a ball of fire. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband

Sounds very similiar to my story!!!

OW was xGF from HS,graduated 79 he did she never did, had many siblings xH was friends with the family and seen OW different times over the years, after each visit we'd get phone calls for awhile. He had told me that this was his first love up front before we ever dated. I accepted that, and H had always put me first and kept a perspective on what he had.

xH had to go to Korea for the AF for a year and the communication started up big time over e mail, she was having a personal crisis and needed my H help!!! Had family next door but went to a different country to find my H for help!!! He made the comment that he might want a divorce before he came home, said for him to go see her before coming home. He didn't! Came home promised me that things would be better that he really wanted to be with me and our family.

We moved when he got back from Korea, everything was fine. I didn't know that the e mail communication was still going on I had been promised that he didn't need her. I walked into his office one day when there was an email from her and his response was "It doesn't matter what you look like I still love you" I came un glued. He had a TDY scheduled for FL the next week and it never klicked before that he was going to go see her. It was another 9 hours from where he was. He seen her, came back and wanted a divorce. I said fine, cried alot, begged all the wrong things. Got us to counseling once and he said "Don't I deserve to be happy with the rest of my life?" I asked what he was un-happy about, couldn't tell me, there was nothing, he just needed to be happy. Oh yeah he had turned 40 the month before, had a son graduating from HS, had a car accident, didn't like his boss, had to make rank or get out of the AF!!! I was thinking and still think MLC big time!!! Said that he had never cheated on me, I didn't agree, and told him that he was sharing things with her that should only be shared with your spouse.

I was just thinking earlier tonight it's been close to 3 years since the affair truly hit the light of day, and I am wondering "How's this working for him?" Don't really care!!!!

I know where I am in life, and I am ok and that's what is important, I recovered myself!!! And I love me and what I am doing in life, so I may not be a success story as far as recovering my marriage, but I am a success story as I came out of this a better person, better for me!!!

Just my thoughts and story as far as an EA, I see or hear EA and I want to jump in and help. EA's are so hard for a BS, the WS shared something so personal, so intimate with someone other then you. To me sex is sex but an EA is about the heart!!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just got on here to see where YOU were at since I havent talked to you for prob over a year.

Dont know if you even remember who I am!

H`s A`s have mostly been EA`s. Such a subtle way to be unfaithful!!!!! So easy to get away with
!!!

He is a very emotional person looking for "connection", "soulmates", and the old "I need someone to take care of me" thing, and "I feel like being a night in shining armor" thing. You know "puppy love" stuff.

To this day I have no idea how much physical involvement he has had with women during our marriage.

100 physical affairs would hurt me far less than a handful of EA`s. I truly think ANY EA is the most painful thing a woman can experience.

I see no pattern in my case. It seems to be very hit and miss, random, whatever is available.

replaced

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My thought is the greater the EA, the harder the A is on the BS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I definitely agree.

Though EA with PA may feel harder for the BS to deal with, but at least if there was PA, there was some reality to the experience, not just some fantasy perfection and the "if onlys" & "what ifs" are somewhat answered for the WS.

Daybreak--good to see you post, you are a success story in my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey,

It is nice to hear from all of you. Daybreak and Replaced, it's been a while since we chatted, 'eh?

Ok Replaced, I do remember you and have been thinking about you. Somehow I lost your addy. My hotmail account went down for a while and I did lose some addresses at that time. Send me another e-mail.

Since you asked....we are in what I could now phrase a 'real recovery'. That is why I wanted to post this. The false recovery is sooo good at fooling many a BS and the consquences is often as painful as d/d. This is not good, I am looking for ways to identify the false recovery, put out the symptoms and maybe just maybe it would help some BS and WS out there. I certainly don't want any to go through what we have and for as long as we have, right?

I was hoping to change the direction of some people's outlook to see that they are not alone, sometimes patterns emerge that can be used to help identify a better way to correct it. I am not a doctor or scientist but I do like to look for a common ground or tend in problems. I hate that this emotional stuff is just sooo difficult to identify but somewhere beneath all this info is a key...... maybe it is a shot in the dark or a needle in the haystack..... anyone have a flashlight or magnet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Personal recovery for me is good. I think that is just as important as the M recovery because we can't run away from ourselves.

Right now there's stuff going on I can't post here but it is headed in the right direction. I am hoping it c/b something to help other BS' cope better. I believe there are techniques and tools out there that if used 'smarter' can help. It takes hard work and lots of dilligence but it can help.

Did you know that H & I met 5 other MBers? Suppose to meet a few more next weekend. Big step for the Xws. He is earning his H title back. I don't give it back just to any act of kindness - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

You ladies still have my addy? Please keep in touch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks all for your responses. I am sure more people said 'huh or 'duh' when they my 1st post. I will try to see if I can rethink my message. I have a sinus headache and so I have to take it a bit easier today.

Hugz,
L.

Orchid,

As you know my WH A is still ongoing...but I am starting to understand better with the recent events of the past week. My WH A is definitely more EA than PA although they sleep together. Yes I feel EA's are so much harder to deal with. As for a pattern..the pattern I am seeing with not only the A but my WH life up to this point is: when he feels he longer makes his partner happy he runs. He did it with his parents on a parent/child level. He did with his previous relationship, now is doing it with me and OW1. I feel this because WH now tells me he heard the same complaints from ex in previous relationship as he does from me and now as he does from OW1. So what is WH doing pursuing another OW because it is new and he can make her happy until the relationship progresses..then he hits the same pitfalls. Basically he is extremely co-dependent. Hope I did not get off the subject but this is the pattern I see with my WH infidelity. Ea first then Pa..but Ea always stronger

I wholeheartedly agree that EA is much harder to deal with than PA--for both spouses.

EA/PA went like this:

--EA for about 4-5 years total
--PA with different person for about 4-6 months during big work season (from the start fwh never intended it to be more than that)
--Contact with EA person ended months after PA ended

PA dealt with, EA not not NOT (and h's private/secret work life continues--h says he will deal with this but avoids it at all costs including absolute cruelty in word and deed if I bring it up).

Complete breakdown of marriage occurred during EA. So far, in spite of supposedly wanting what we used to have, h has not done anything except end contact (no NC letter although there were many promises made for writing one). State of the marriage issues are the same as when EA was taking over h's time and money.

Where I'm at now:

If h does what he says he will then I would love to remain married to him whether that's for a few more months or for many years.

If h still doesn't do what he says he wants to do and says he is willing to do then I hope that he dies. Otherwise, I will have to go through the nasty divorce he has promised me if I file.

In the meantime, this week my own private/secret life starts. For now, I won't be doing anything wrong except keeping it from h. I haven't done the private/secret life before this because it makes it very easy to cross the line and easily hide it. But it's the only way I can endure with h under the same circumstances.

Btw, this is my official "I don't give a crap about our supposed POJA about me not posting MY story". It feels good and h can just get over it.

Just some additional thoughts.

An EA is being forsaken.

An EA makes WS lie about thoughts, feelings, as to a PA, WS lies about times and places.

A BS has felt safe and secure in their emotions shared during the marriage, that has been betrayed in an EA.

In an EA, a WS makes statements that hurt and are meant to, as they try to revision the marriage so that they feel that they are truly connected with the OP, their soulmate, "it's not just sex" with an EA, they feel that they can justify the affair more.

With an EA they knowingly allowed the affair to happen, as in a PA they just got caught up in the moment. That is more forgiveable to me.

With an EA, WS doesn't see or want to reconcile, the soulmate thing kicks in big time, they are not sorry. In a PA, WS is sorry it happened and asks for forgiveness, wants to reconcile.

Yes I have made some generalizations. I didn't realize how much it is that I have learned these past two years. MB has been a godsend to me. It was so helpful to have people that truly understoond where it was I was coming from. I want to help others get thru this too!!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How much of the EA is necessary though to lead up to the PA if the PA is what both parties are most interested in? (or think they are)

I think OW was most interested in PA, and H thought he was too. But when they finally made it to PA (after about 2 months of intense flirting/foreplay), he couldn't go through with it and broke the A off. But his withdrawal was very brief, and the fog lifted quickly. (As soon as he saw that what he had done truly did upset me!!)

Anyway, my pattern would be - 1 month EA w/ no touching at all, 2 months EA with brief touches of the hand (nothing illicit, yet), and then 15 minutes total of touching/kissing/petting over 3 different days over 2 weeks. ALL on the job.

For WS, it is definitely an EA still. I'm not sure (and haven't asked), but the PA was 3x in a hotel room. I'm sure other PA stuff happened elsewhere, but that probably had to be limited.

I believe this was/is the pattern:
1 month EA, 1 month EA/PA, 1 month EA and still going. I can't be sure how much PA has been going for the past month and I'm afraid to ask right now.

In WS' case, although he is definitely interested in PA, the EA is the most important thing and is what is keeping him from committing to our M.

Orchid,
The patten of my FWW's A was:
4 mos of low key EA; low key = an occassional meeting for lunch
1 mo of heating up EA w/ kissing
1 time PA in Summer '01 on a boat off the coast
Followed by 7 mos of intense EA: meeting for lunches & dinners w/ kissing, constant calls & v-mails. I discovered it towards the end. I don't know if it was dieing out on its own or whether my suspisions and questions as to all of the calls put the damper on it.
She admitted to an EA and "recovery" began Spring '02. I thought we were in recovery but I had heard a phone call and v-mail or two and had just enough info to believe that a PA may have occurred. For a year I was in a great Plan A and had changed. Sometime after the 1 yr anniv. of DDay that little bit of doubt as to whether she was being fully honest started to haunt our recovery. I raised the question 1 or twice over the next 2 months. Got the same response. "It's over don't worry." Since I felt she wasn't being honest I started to backslide on the Plan A behaviour. Had to go on meds for depression. Finally on the family vacation this summer I lost it and told her that I didn't believe her that the "full" story was out. Her self-righteous indignation could have won her an academy award.

Two days after our return she woke me up at 4:00am and told me that "yes, it had been a one time PA."

So recovery has started again although I don't feel as though I went back to complete zero. All of the lies wasted about a year of false recovery.

I don't think there are any "signs" of false recovery. Yes the lies continue but at that point they are continuing not because of the fog but because the FWS is scared s#%^less that the BS may leave them. They rationalize that they shouldn't tell to "protect the persons feelings"

Great thread Orchid even if the same story keeps popping up.

I share your concern about newcomers which is why I've thrown myself into a couple of threads -- while the pain is still fresh in my mind -- to offer some suggestions of "how" to remove yourself, work on yourself, keep yourself sane. Best time you'll ever spend as far as I'm concerned. And while most people advocate doing this, I found as a newbie that specific "how-to" advice was a little lacking.

Of course, all I can offer is my own example, but it worked for me. Gangbusters.

In my case: there was way more EA (every day) than PA (maybe 12-15 times over 7-8 months?) but on D-day he clearly thought the problem really was the PA not the EA. Since then, he's rather quickly come around to my way of thinking, including seeing her through my eyes. (ie. at first he kept saying she was his friend, now he's seeing that she really wasn't his friend...a friend would have told him to end his M first before starting a new relationship with her. A friend wouldn't agree to having casual sex with another woman's husband. A friend wouldn't push him into doing something he thought was so wrong. Etc.)

Although in my MB infancy still, I determined that focussing on the EA was probably the best way to avoid a false recovery so I've perhaps been a bit more aggressive on that front than others. It's been hard not to LB and I've slipped from my former pure non-LB perch for sure, but still in very gentle ways, always making sure we talk things through and that it is not simply leading to resentment on his part. The dialogue continues although I am feeling like I've said everything I need to say at this point and that the rest is up to him to figure out at his much slower pace.

Since the PA was not a big deal for me, that part of our recovery is really rockin along! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Our sex life has not been this great since...the beginning. And all the love and devotion on his part is pretty reaffirming for me too! Again, gets better every day.

When did the EA start? He can't really answer. She was "my" friend and had been a constant presence in our lives for a long long time.

All he CAN say is that he started having feelings for her sometime in the summer/fall of 2002. (She understood him so well, and told him all the time how wonderful he was and how terrible I was. I've learned from other people since then that she's been in love with him for at least 2 years...while still pretending to be "my" friend.)

Those feelings passed into...I don't know...fully romantic feelings for her? at some point this past spring. In other words, feelings that he knew full well were inappropriate and took pains to hide from me. Then the PA started soon thereafter.

The PA itself: Truly pathetic. After drinking. Always. Quick F**k then he'd either come home, go to sleep and get up and leave, or leave and stay elsewhere.

Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, and he says it wasn't for him either. Who knows what she felt about it...hope I never know.

The A ended the day I confronted him. With great relief on his part. It was eating him up. That much I could see. But he truly believed I would chuck him out, laughing to boot. (I guess my Plan A acting was much better than I could ever have guessed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Now...this is a different WS perspective than many, one far closer to an exit A than a purely PA or "soulmate" A.

While the A was going on, I simply knew that for him the PA would be the worst part, and it turns out it was even worse than I guessed. He felt sick and guilty each time they had sex (why keep doing it? I guess because it was better than going to a prostitute.)

Since the day the A ended, it's been quite obvious to me that he does not miss her one iota. He was using her and doesn't really care how she'll cope without him. Nor did he ever fool himself that he was in love with her. To top it all off, she LB'd like crazy in the last couple of months, trying to browbeat him into leaving me.

But for me, the EA was the worst. The PA only rankled because I figured he'd be soooo guilty, it might prevent M recovery. And at first the guilt WAS impeding his recovery (see cwmac's comment about his wife's behaviour). He felt ashamed everytime he looked at me. Now he's a whole lot better, mainly because I was able to convince him that opening up about details would help him almost as much as it would me!

But the EA still looms large in my mind, and to be frank...I am most worried about myself being the one to ruin recovery now. I agree with y'all and with all the experts...women generally have a really hard time coping with that level of betrayal. I understand why he turned to her. I understand how bad our marriage was prior to the A. I even understood this morning when he said: "how could I come to you and say I was contemplating an A? I thought you no longer loved me and wouldn't even care!"

I understand all of it. But it doesn't help my emotions. The sense of deep betrayal. The worry that one day she'll weasel her way back into his "friendship" and start influencing his bad boy behaviour. And the fear that at the first sign of her, I'll turn and never look back, disgusted that he ever gave her such power and intimate knowledge of US. The feeling that she had the right to wade in and make demands about ME.

(You can tell I still have some way to go in terms of working on my forgiveness for her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

In Plan A, I've spent lots of time learning to detach, learning to let go, learning that I control only myself and no one else. I've spent lots of time deciding how I want to live the rest of my life and taking concrete steps within myself to ensure it is so.

Orchid and others: you are darn right. The best advice anyone can give is to work on yourself, begin your own recovery that will be worthwhile whether or not WS re-commits to the M. But...a little piece of me wonders whether or not I shouldn't keep going down that road on my own, kind of a safety net in withdrawal. If the "one-ness" is gone, the sacred nature of our vows...I'm a messy sap sometimes and in the middle of the night, I can feel a tad bitter.

But...he is amazing. Our M gets stronger every day. We are talking openly about the mistakes in the past and taking concrete steps to prevent them in future. He is being honest and open and the changes in him are incredible. He already says the changes I've made in 2 months are incredible.

But past experiences of MB posters make me pause and wonder...what speed bumps lie ahead?

Thanks for the opportunity to vent a lot about this. I am trying very hard to avoid a false recovery and feel we're making great progress. She's been NC so far but I still feel like the other shoe is going to drop because I don't think she's done with him yet.

Again, your stories here are chilling (wrecking cars, trying to kill H, etc).

So...I try to remind myself to live in the moment! Do like Twyla suggests and have a heck of a good time with my new H!! It's not hard to do and darn it, OW's already wrecked enough of my preciously short time with him so why give her the satisfaction (even if she doesn't know it) of my worry too!!!

awed

P.S. Hey...someone posted a OW perspective within the last couple of weeks, if I remember correctly it was basically a letter/column explaining what the OW would feel or could expect once the A ends...it wasn't the nicest thing ever but I did glean some info from it. Anyone else remember it? I can't find it again but I'd like to. I'm trying to mentally prepare for further crap from her.

P.P.S. One other thing...apparently OW's roomates gave her a really hard time about the A. About it's effect on me. Thought the 2 of them were slimeballs. Isn't it nice to know that people will speak up occasionally? Often if no kids are involved, people say it's between the couple, are reluctant to "get involved". I truly appreciated hearing of at least 2 people who had enough guts to speak out for a woman they don't know to a woman they do know.

A cruel part of me wonders if they are offering her comfort now or letting her savour her just desserts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Orchid,
What everyone has posted so far is right on. I, too, agree that EA is stronger than PA. The PA can seal the deal, though. The EA allows the fantasies and unrealistic expectations of a relationship to continue.

In my case, the OW lives across the country so they don’t see each other that often. Unfortunately this allows the EA to continue in an extremely strong way, since now the A has been physically consummated. (They are together during the summer and on breaks while working on long-distance learning PhDs at same institution.) And without them physically being around each other that often, I fear that this will be the longest EA on record! ( Pepperband , how did you stand that?!?!? I know I don’t have the grace to last as long as you did.) Sometimes I almost wish my H and OW were in the same town so they’d get tired of each other sooner.

So as of today, it was EA for total of 1 year, then PA at about the 1 year mark and off/on since then, and EA continues to this day - they met June 2001.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Orchid,

H's affair went like this...

16 year friendship with OW & how much of this was EA who knows!

5 years later 4 month PA; then H ends the A; however friendship EA? continues for 4 more years.

H sits me down 4 years after PA ends and tells me about the A. I immediately insist on NC.

Real time now is 19 months post d-day & doing well in recovery; however OW tries to contact H about every 8 months. Latest contact - she set him up was 3 days ago! She was dressed up like you would for a date; and shook like a leaf. I think she's addicted to him. CSue