Jazzy: She says she still loves me and cares for me and she even goes to the point of saying she always will. In the same breath she also says it's not working and she doesn't want to try and make it work. She refuses IC and MC stating it's no use, that too much has happened. She says she wants to cut her losses and move on that we're not worth fixing. Yes....fog talk I know. She knows she's depressed, but refuses to do anything about it. I can't force her to do anything. Has she delt with her A? Nope....not really. We never made it to recovery.

Am I completely giving up? Heck No!

I still have a bit of hope tucked away where she can't steal it.

Do I still love her? Oh my God yes, but her bank balance is getting low and I need to protect it.

Harry here's another little script you may want to consider using, in a calm and soothing voice, when she tries to blame you for anything:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Honey, I don’t blame you one
bit for feeling like you do. If I were in your shoes, I would feel exactly the same as you."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of us very badly want to be understood, and know that our spouses understand us. When you show her that you do, she'll become more reasonable and might start to have second thoughts about divorce.

And lastly always, always keep your voice calm and soothing.

TMCM ..... what he said!

Harry check this little story out:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob Preston of Minneapolis didn’t want his wife, Mandy, to divorce him, but she kept pushing him for a divorce all the time anyway. He always refused. He fought it any way he could. But every time Mandy wanted to get her way in any situation, she’d pull out the old Divorce Ace and play it. Bob always caved in. He would do anything to prevent a divorce. His wife was acting like a real controlling monster, but he still loved her, and wanted to work things out. The problem was, she was making his life miserable. He was giving her the power by his constant refusal to consider divorce. But he was beginning to see the writing on the wall. Sooner or later, he’d have to give into the divorce, if only to save his dignity and sanity. So one day during an argument over some financial matters, Bob put his foot down. He wanted to do it his way, and that was final. Mandy, of course, played her ace. She brought up divorce. Despondent, Bob finally said, “Fine, I totally agree! Let’s get a divorce.” Suddenly, Mandy was speechless. Bob had finally called her bluff. With one simple phrase, Bob had taken away her power over him. Now the ball was in her court. At first, Mandy said: “Good, let’s get a divorce then.” Bob said again: “Great. Let’s do it.” They left it there, and for several days, neither of them spoke of divorce again. In the meantime, Mandy had let Bob get his way on the financial dispute they had argued about. About a week later, another dispute came up. Again, Bob put his foot down. Again, Mandy tried to trump him with her divorce move. Again, Bob said: “Yes, I’ve already agreed to a divorce. Let’s get it started.” This time, Mandy dropped the subject and they didn’t talk about it again for almost two weeks. In the meantime, life went on. Then one day, Mandy suddenly exploded in anger at Bob. She said: “I can’t believe you’re being so cavalier about getting a divorce! You used to do and say anything to keep us together! Now you act like you want a divorce!” Bob said: “Mandy, I just want what you want. If you want a divorce, I’ll give you a divorce. If you don’t want a divorce, I’ll go along with that, too.” After this conversation, the subject of divorce never came up again. All of their problems didn’t magically go away, but now Mandy realized that her divorce demands no longer had any power over Bob. This forced her to find other ways to get what she wanted, and that usually meant compromise. But once the power of her divorce ploy had been called, it became clear to Bob that Mandy didn’t really want a divorce either. With this realization, their marriage started to get better. If they weren’t going to get a divorce, then they had to work things out.

What’s the moral of this story? Well, some psychologists call this negative suggestibility, but it’s really just good old reverse psychology. Bob didn’t want a divorce, and by fighting the idea, he only made the idea stronger in Mandy’s mind. But once he started agreeing, she started wanting the opposite. What he did was to frustrate and diffuse her neurotic desire for a divorce. Once the spell was broken -- by nonresistence to it -- the spell lost its power and the idea of divorce dissolved slowly away. Will this work for you? And isn’t it risky? What if your spouse immediately agrees to a divorce? The fact is, the vast majority of the time, when you start agreeing on anything, even a divorce, it forces both spouses to start thinking more deeply about divorce. Once it becomes a real possibility, the idea all of sudden doesn’t seem so great. Yes, the spouse may agree to a divorce -- but that’s still a long way from going through with it. And think about this: If resisting a divorce demand isn’t working, why not try the opposite? What have you got to lose? You can be confident in the knowledge that agreeing to a divorce may be the best way of stopping it completely.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

TMCM: Done!

She said she was going to see a lawyer either today or next week. I think me moving out this weekend will nix that plan all by itself, but this time I won't change my mind till she agrees to IC and MC as well as reading SAA and HNHN and working through it completely. I am going through with it this time if only to show her I'm serious. Two months minimum I'll be away. (per lease agreement)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HarryS:

She said she was going to see a lawyer either today or next week.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harry keep in mind that what a person says she is going to do and what she actually ends up doing are two totally different things. In the meantime enjoy your life and do the things that bring you happiness, but be very careful with establishing any friendships with women (you don't want a repeat of your short lived EA).

Hey, TMCM, do you have a script for when a WS uses the "I can't do anything right" line?

Sorry for hijacking your thread, HarryS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> To keep it slightly on-topic: Remember that the deadening of emotions won't last forever. Your WP is calm right now, and there's a good chance that it's a physical defense mechanism to her stress levels going so high that her emotions had to shut down or they would completely overwhelm her.

As they come back into the range of normal, you'll probably see her have a heckuva reaction to something entirely unrelated.

Like everyone else is saying, keep it calm and soothing when that happens for as long as you can. And just file away everything she says like you're watching a movie or something. Don't react like it's you she's talking to. Find a way to control your own emotional reactions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just J:

"Hey, TMCM, do you have a script for when a WS uses the "I can't do anything right" line? "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a matter of fact I do:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Honey you are right, you can't do anything right"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And give her your biggest grin possible afterwards. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, it's done deal. They have an aprartment available for move-in this weekend and the good thing is that they will apply the deposit I made last month to this one. I called W and told her that I will be moving out tomorrow and she told me that her plans had changed and that she will help me pack tonight. Then she says she loves me, but doesn't see any other way for us to be happy.

Bam!

I pull out my script and say, "I love you too, and I would love to have our marriage work. Your right, it's not working and I'd be happy to have you help me pack tonight."

Not exact, but I think the point is carried.

She wants to know where the apartment is where I'm moving, but I told her if she needs anything that she has my cell and can leave a message.

QUESTION: Should I be heading into Plan B? I know she's going to be asking me to help with the yard and stuff like that. Should this be a reality check like plan B to show her exactly what life will be like without me? I guess this is a very important question that I need to get an answer to ASAP (before I go home tonight).

Harry,

Let's see. She isn't willing to work on the marriage, you have no kids, and she is going to help you pack so you can leave.

I'm thinking you might as well go to plan B. I don't know if there is still an OM to be rid of, but what do you have to talk to her about??? Seriously, it seems that your conversations are pretty much you saying you want the marriage and her saying 'no way'.

So, if there is nothing to talk about, she doesn't want you around, and she doesn't want to work on anything, I say leave her alone. Don't call, don't ask, and sort of move on, with the caution that you received from Coffeeman, no new women either.

You may well find that your life is calmer, more enjoyable, and that you are in fact ready to move on before she is. You KNOW you did all you could, she cannot say the same thing.

So Plan B in the strictest sense I am not sure, that would be never talking to her until OM is gone. If OM is gone, then there would be no end except divorce. I am thinking you simply avoid contacting her, and when there is contact make it very brief and business like. Unfortantuately, she sounds a bit like a petulant child, so she may divorce just to prove she is right.

Must go. Hope something I said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Harry as Cerri would say 'There is no such thing as a modified Plan B', it either is or isn't. But you certainly can write her a Plan B type of letter that specifies your love for her, and your desire to rebuild the marriage but that until she wants the same that it would be too painful for you to have contact with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Honey you are right, you can't do anything right"

And give her your biggest grin possible afterwards. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ha!!

Dear me, I think she would've killed me if I'd done that today, but then again, today we were talking about someone's death; humor wasn't the right way to go. Still, if it happens again, I may well trot that out. Thanks!

Jazzy: She states that she hasn't had contact with OM since 8/22. Take that as you will.

Yes, could be delayed fog, but who knows. Packed several boxes tonight, not too hard. She followed me around the house as I was packing looking lost and very sad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She followed me around the house as I was packing looking lost and very sad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure doesn't sound like the woman who was so resolute about wanting a divorce, does it?

Today was hard. A lot harder than I thought. W came in last night and slept with me. Held me all night. This morning she wanted to go with me to see the apt, so I said ok. She must have told me she loved me 100 times.

I'll tell yall something if W loved me like she has last night and today 3 weeks ago I wouldn't be here sitting in this apartment, but I know if I caved we'd be right where we were a few weeks ago. Every time I start to leave she starts working on M. Then when I back down, it's back to the same ole same ole.

She's called me and called me, I've only been gone a few hours. I know PlanB says I shouldn't talk to her, but right now she putting deposits in my love bank and thats a good thing.

She wanted to know if she can come over and spend the night.....God help me stay my course.

It's getting cold in here.....and lonely.

Okay so let me see if I have this straight (I've been lurking since you posted your story HaryS.)

Your WW has ended her relationship with OM -- she has NC with him.

She then sat in her corner and didn't want to work on the marriage gave you no LUs, didn't want to work on the marriage, etc. etc. etc.

You feeleing even more empty than before d-day strayed onto dangerous gound and had an on-line EA. You've ended it, told FWW and now have NC with OW.

You FWW was totally upset with your A and reacted far differently than you. In her reaction she seemed not to see what she had done and who was she? sort of like the pot calling the kettle black -- right?

Okay as a FWW (11 years ago) I can understand her reaction to a point -- my H had an A a little over a year later. In some part of her mind she may have set you up as the person better than herself -- and the person who would never do this to her knowing how much it hurt. She placed expectations on you and set you up on a pedestal.

If she did that, then she and I in this regard were the same. (but the not willing to work on the marriage is where we part company).

Your FWW has stated that there was nothing to work on -- that she wanted a divorce. So you have moved out and NOW she is working on the marriage and making major LU deposits.

Is all this (with the exception of my own experience interjection) correct?

Are you sure or reasonably sure that she has NC with OM?

If you are then I can't really see a reason to go to plan B IF she is beginning to work on the marriage and continues doing so.

Her stating that there was nothing to work on and demanding that you move out could have been the last bits of fog talking. Striking out and back, not just at you but at herself.

Some part of her may feel so bad about what she has done that and feels a need to "pay" for the damage in such a way as to withdraw and sink everything else.

But now you are gone... it's becoming more real -- real life is beginning to come into focus and with that all that she could loose.

So she is begining to work. And there needs to be some rewards for that work -- as in you talking to her and working it out.

*IF* you go to plan B now she may just up and chuck the whole thing because there are no rewards here for her, so why should she continue to deposit LU's and come toward you?

I would say to continue in your apt... and let her call and work on the marriage, deposit LUs, etc. and reward her for the work -- you may even get her to consent to MC.

HOWEVER only do this is you are reasonably sure there is NC between her and OM -- which may mean you need to check, be a detective, get one.. etc.

If she is still in contact with OM .. plan B for sure.

just my $0.02, $0.01 after taxes.

way2

Harry I agree with way2 in doing some detective work to find out if she is still in contact with the OM. If she truly is still seeing the OM, then you may want to consider going into Plan B.

Way2: Fantastic post! I'm not so sure I get what you mean about rewarding her....

but...

Let's see if I can suppose... In one of tonights conversations on the phone she was worried about how much it was going to cost to have the yardwork done. I told her if she wanted me to that I would come over tomorrow and do it, she seemed pleased and asked that I call before I come.
I am answering all her calls, not plb'ing at the moment. You ask if I'm reasonalbly sure if she's maintaing N/C with OM. At the moment, yes I am. I thought my moving out might change that, but it seems that insteed of it driving her into his arms, it's driving her into mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One day at a time and trying not to get my hopes up.

TMCM: Glad to see your still following.....hope your doing well.

Thanks folks for helping me out here.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM: Glad to see your still following.....hope your doing well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You better beleive that I would not miss your story my friend. And I'm doing really great considering that I'm married to the most wonderful woman in the world (of course I'm not biased <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).