Can it be built? I don't know. That's up to Tom to decide if he wants to build it or not
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Well, I don't think it's up to him. In the end I think it will be your choice to decide if you want or not. Of course you still don't believe in this, but you will some time in the future.

Matilde -- Your reply to my wondering if care can be built and saying it was up to Tom was to say that it is my choice. Can you tell me what you mean?

We talked tonight about care. He said he doesn't care for me and has lost the desire to care. I said I don't care for him but I have the desire to care.

I am trying to understand the difference between care and control. Honestly, I am floundering around a lot, wondering what to do. Is it care to ask for a separation if we cannot treat each other well? Tonight, we were discussing kid snacks after school and he sent two attacks my way and I left. I cannot control his nastiness, so I left. I am wondering if we should separate as a way to preserve my deserve to care. I don't know. This is a very confusing time for me. One minute, I am hopeful, and the next I have decided to move on and am envisioning my life as a single Mom.

Hi broken heart and arm

Again I would like to point you to your previous post on the forest... remember that one?

You are too deep in it you just see the trees, and there are several forests.

What I meant, was that you are an abused lady. What is that makes you stick to that unhealthy relationship? I don't have a clue. I'm sure you will have your reasons, as much as we do. The problem is that while you stay on it, you can not envision another type of relationship. You need to separate for a while to begin healing. Healing for you, to gain some of that lost self respect, self esteem, self worth, you name it.

And what I meant, about work on the M, be your choice and not his, is that right now, he still knows you are there to KEEP substaining abuse or not from him. You have not gave him motive to change or grow, you STILL admit the abuse and he knows it, so for now it's his choice to keep abusing you. In the future, if you want, have an enlightment or anything, you will separate at least for a while. That separation will give you time to heal, to think, and most important to look at the forest you have been with some perspective. Maybe in that time, you will realize how unhealthy was your relationship, and that is when you are the one that is going to make the choice on work on it or not, and if you decide to give it a go, that will be with your rules.

Like I always said, and you know this, it takes two to tango.

I want to keep M, but not the way I was before, my H has to make many changes, and for me to know this NOW, it took 8 months of separation, reading, advice, friends, AA and a lot more. And even so if my H want's to return now like before, and not do any work, well I would be a fool to accept that. It didn't worked before, look where I'm now.

Your case is not that especial (aside the abuse)

If you want a M, he also has to do the work. Is he doing it? If not... How can you imagine your M can recover with just your work?

And frankly, I don't think you are in any spot to work on a M. You are very affected by abuse from your H. You keep receiving it. Your reality is disorted.

And why you think you can recover if you are still abused? is this the example you want for your kids?

First you have to fix yourself, then you can think on the M.

And regarding the abuse.... Well lady there also it takes 2 to tango right? The abuser and the abused... but if the abused is not there??? Either he will pick another one, or change. Which one is going to be? Only God knows... but in that much, I think you have the upper hand. At least to make YOUR choice.

Take good care

Matilde --

Thanks for your reply. It was very timely.

Last night, we got into a discussion about our assignment from the MC. Tom wrote his vision of a happy M, and I had mine. Mine included the POJA, which he said was my way to control him. I changed my vision to focus on care. I spoke with him about care last night. He said he doesn't care for me. I said I would be satisfied if he desired to care for me. He said he lost the desire. I said I think we need to separate if that is the case because I need care.

We have MC tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what happens. I do look at my children and wonder what in the world I was thinking that I allowed them to see abuse. He is only emotionally abusive now -- doesn't even swear much -- but it's not enough.

One thing I wrote in my vision of a happy marriage is that we protect our M with care not control. I cannot control him. What I can do is separate as an act of caring to protect my own desire to work on the M.

It is very sad.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Hi again!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He said he doesn't care for me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hummm interesting.

I don't know what I'm not seeing here broken... He doesn't care, he doesn't feel the desire, he is still abusive, but you think you can work on the M. Talk about denial!. Well I'm sure your love? has you blinded at reality and into denial as it was for me.

But what about the love for yourself?

I know it would be wonderful if Tom would also love you.... hummm but neither of you can't give what you don't have can you?

For you to be able to love him in a HEALTHY way, not in a co-dependent way, you have to love yourself first. And well ... this tells me a lot...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is only emotionally abusive now -- doesn't even swear much -- but it's not enough.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geee I'm happy! Let's wait for the day he really gets pissed and can't control his emotions again and this time he will break my _____. Fill the blank!

I'm sorry if I'm ironic, broken, and I know there is a lot of ppl who might tell you the same.

It's your choice!

Also....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do look at my children and wonder what in the world I was thinking that I allowed them to see abuse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAS???????????

I would have said..I do look at my children and wonder what in the world I'm thinking that I allow them to see abuse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I can do is separate as an act of caring to protect my own desire to work on the M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forget the M!!!! Protect yourself! protect your kids!Get some distance! work on you! then maybe you can think on the M!

Do an act of care for yourself!!!

Take care

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: matilde ]</small>

The MC asked that we write up our vision of a happy M. Part of my answer was that "we protect our relationship through care not control."

I brought up separation because I said I think the only way I can show care right now is to pull back and give my H time to decide what he wants.

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and give my H time to decide what he wants.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are going in circles.

Again this is not your H's choice but yours to protect you and your kids.

OK. I get it. It's my life. I can't depend on him to make my decisions for me. Thanks.

Right!

Well it's your life and he forms a part on it. But when something in your life destroys you or your family you have the choice to keep at it or get away from it.

Is not easy to do either. With both you can suffer a lot. But take the one that in the long run will be better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care

Our MC suggested on Wednesday that we consider separation and asked us to think about it so we can discuss it in MC next Wednesday. I had a difficult day yesterday because I spent a lot of time considering it and told H last night that if we separated I would file for legal separation to protect the family support and move on, not wanting to have direct contact with him.

I told him that I would like us to talk about what care means next week in MC. I think that that is what is missing in our M. I am all prepared for legal separation, but I believe it is the end if I go there. What I don't want is to be in a M where I get crumbs from the table -- the absolute minimum that my H judges is necessary in order to stay in the house. That's why I think care is missing.

Thanks for your encouragement.

Hi broken

I don't fully know your story, but let me ask you this.

You have come a long way since you found out, and with a lot of abuse in between. Has anything really changed in all this time? it's been what? 2 years? And you are still looking for the right answers?

For some of us it takes longer I know, but if care is the issue now. Ask yourself do you really care this much for this man who doesn't care for you? He has told you that and he has demostrated with his actions that.

I don't know, I wouldn't advice MC but IC on you! And to make you wonder why you care so much for this guy and so little for you?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I understand you pretty well, I don't want my M to be over also, but there is a time that I have to face reality as it is and not as I wanted it to be.

Living like that would be denial and to tell you the truth not a life at all.

I would be constantly suffering on what I wanted in life and not having it. Because, I put my hopes and faith in others instead of me. Been there, done that for too much time, and that is one of the many reasons this whole A issue got me really depressed.

Take your time lady. Don't think this will be a life or death choice. Just take a choice, and live with it for some time. Try different things. The same all over is craziness.

Hope you have good luck in your next counseling session. Keep us posted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care

Matilde --

Yes, I have come a long way. I started counseling because my H said I was psychotic because I was so upset about this woman. The broken arm made not a dent in my emotional commitment to the M. When the A was exposed, I think I may have gotten close to a nervous breakdown -- I actually went to her house and yelled "Sophia A is a whore!" at the top of my lungs. I called off and on, finally went too far, and she filed a harassment order against me.

That ended thinking the problem was Sophia. That's where I was 9 months after the A was exposed.

Since then, I have focussed on my H, as you point out. The MC last week told my H, "I don't know that you are in a place right now to work on my the M." She suggested we consider separation.

Tom's response was he wouldn't like it but would agree "if that's what would make Kathy happy." Huh? He's saying that he doesn't know what he wants, that he doesn't care for me and doesn't have the desire to care, then in MC he says "I want to care", and now we are at the point of considering separation and he is saying it's because of me.

I'll let you know what happens on Wednesday.