Hiya all,

Brief outline of my story.

Married 10 years, 1 daughter aged 8 years old.
D~Day 13.03.03. H confessed to having a three week affair and that he was leaving me to be with her. I got the ILYBINILWY, he loved her and made him feel alive.....blah, blah, blah. Two minutes after his confession, he headed off to start his new life with her.

I was shocked, devastated, angry and all other emotions that we LBS's go through, but I never once whined, pleaded or begged for him to come home. Instead I just let him go and tried to move on in the best way possible for our daughters sake.

He is a WS that has wavered between I and OW since the early days of him leaving however. I recieved many phone calls during the early months of him leaving, in which he declared he still loved me, couldn't stop thinking of me, etc....
He has also said that he loves me more than he does OW, that he is unhappy with her, has said on one or two occasions that he's coming home ~ however his actions never met his words. Seven and a half months later he is still with OW.
These days however and in one of our more recent phonecalls, he said that we should have been brother and sister because we are so much alike. He has said he cares about me deeply, but I havn't heard 'I still love you' for quite some time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I read that a lot of WS's can be rather nasty with their spouses, say horrible things to them and then there are some WS's that simply turn their back on their LBS's ~ this didn't happen in our case. From day one of him leaving, he said that he still always wanted to be there for I and our daughter, that if I needed anything then all I need do is call him. He sees his daughter every week and pays child support without fail.

Anyway, because he has wavered so much between I and OW these past months and because he seems to have drawn a lot closer to me these days than he previously was, imagine my horror when our daughter mentioned that her dad was talking of marrying the OW. Hearing this was something I've been dreading.

On questioning our daughter further, I asked her when dad had mentioned marriage to OW and our daughter replied that it was when she had first gone to the cinema with her dad, which will have been around the month of July, four months after he left and three months ago. She also said that dad had mentioned that he was going to marry OW next year and that she had to keep it quiet from me. Thing is, he hasn't even mentioned divorce to me.

I am completely broken hearted and devastated at hearing all of this and am thinking that any given moment he is going to mention divorce. I am hurting more now, than I did when he first left, it's like being abandoned and rejected all over again. Lately as I said, we have become closer, we talk by telephone regularly and H will still initiate R talk a lot. He still tries to justify what he did, but the majority of the time we talk, laugh and joke and I keep him updated with what is happening at home.

What I am wondering is, should I go to PlanB immediately?

I have tried going dark on him a few times in the past, but he will pursue persistently. The trouble is he is so nice, that I end up feeling terrible and guilty for ignoring him and I always end up losing my resolve.

After this recent revelation though, I have given up all hope of us ever reconcilling and so I really do think it in my best interests to go to PlanB.

Thanks for any help.

Incase anyone recognises my story, I did originally post as EdensSecret, normally in PlanA/B forum ~ I lost my password <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Lianne, I think you absolutely should go to Plan B now! I would arrange for a go-between to whom you can transfer your daughter for visitation and make darn sure you have NO CONTACT. I think one of the reasons this has dragged on so long is his assurance from you that he can ride the fence for as long as he chooses and you will be sitting there waiting. He sounds like RIPE material for Plan B.

I wouldn't place any weight on his fog talk to your daughter about marrying the OW. If he were serious, he would have filed for divorce. WS commonly say things like that and it only means they are in the throes of an addiction. It is very disturbing to me, though, that he would burden your daughter like that.

Melody, thanks so much for the reply <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I too thought it rather disturbing that he should burden our daughter with this, she is an eight year old child for goodness sakes. Just as she is coming to terms with her father leaving, he lets her know that he is going to marry another woman and before he and I are even divorced ~ the man obviously is not thinking straight, but then he has a tendency to act and to think later, he has always been the same.

He has been sitting on the fence for quite sometime as can be seen throughout my threads in PlanA/B forum. The trouble is, I gave him far too many assurances and reassurances back then that I was still here for him, that I still loved him, that he could come home and I would reconcile if he so wished. And after giving reassurances he would withdraw. As I said though it's been quite sometime since he said he still loved me and talk of coming home is no longer mentioned. Yet perhaps he is being reassured that I am still there for him because I remain his friend and will chat and laugh with him quite regularly. Contact was scarce between us in the early days when he would call saying he loved and missed me you see ~ these days we have contact on a regular basis however, so I am basically not giving him any chance to miss me and I think that's what he needs ~ to miss me. He's basically having the best of both worlds, his old life and the life he has with OW and he seemly doesn't want to lose either of them.

Lianne, I think you are right on in your analysis. He is basically getting his needs met in 2 places. What a great deal! Who wouldn't such a situation to last forever? But if you go dark, he will quickly see that the OW can't possibly meet all of his needs.

Have you looked at some Plan B letters on this site? I would suggest that you start reading some so you can begin work on your own PBL. And then, if you want, post it here so others can give you some feedback.

Trouble is, I think she is meeting all of his needs. What needs could I be possibly meeting in mere telephone conversations because this is where most of our contact lies. He does come to the home to collect our daughter every weekend and he calls with child support, but he doesn't hang around very long. Sometimes he knocks at the door, sometimes he just walks in as if he still lives here.

What I am wondering now though is, do I tell him that I know of what he has said to our daughter, or should I leave well alone, say nothing and go straight to PlanB?

It's going to be hard, really hard. I'm feeling guilty about doing this already, because he so damn nice and seems to still care a lot. I know that it's something I've got to do though, or chances are our divorce and his marriage to her will all go ahead <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Too late, I called him and confronted him with what our daughter told me. I was sitting here in turmoil, the tears havn't stopped ~ I just had to know one way or the other.

He was busy but 10 minutes later he called me back. I simply and calmly asked him if what I'd heard was true, was he planning on marrying the OW which ultimately means that he is going to divorce me? He stumbled over his words and at first denied it. He'd then said it was rubbish and asked me who'd said that? I know that I shouldn't have involved our daughter, but I told him that she told me. He then blurted out and asked 'did I have a problem with it all'?

Do I have a problem with it all? The man broke my heart several months since and still continues to do so and then he asks if I have a problem.

I calmly told him that no, I didn't have a problem with it, (I decided to take the high road rather than scream and bawl at him), but that I was taking this opportunity to say goodbye forever to him and then I hung up. Not a great start to PlanB, but I did a bloody good PlanA, that may or may not pay off in the long run.

The permanant distance I plan on now putting between us, will hopefully help me get past this latest hurt. This is a whole lot worse than D~Day was.

Now I know for sure that he wants a divorce, it was only a matter of time before he asked and OW will be his future wife. Everything now seems so final. God, this hurts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

{{{{Lianne}}}},

I am so sorry for the pain you are in. You came to a great place for support.

It is time for plan B. I can tell you that many times when a LBS goes into plan B and start moving on (even if only on the out side) that is when the WS starts to really seeing what they have to lose.

Does it work everytime? No, but even if it doesn't bring him back it will help you see how strong you really are.

And please for her sake don't ask D about her Dad, his plans ect.. If she brings it up just listen and say *that's nice* or *I'm sory* or whatever is called for. But don't ask for any other details. It is too easy for a child to feel they must takes sides in situations like this and that is hard for a child. JMHO.

Lianne, don't let this sidetrack you. He doesn't know what he wants. If he wanted a divorce, he would have already filed. You just need to keep your eye on the ball and move forward. It is so easy to get sidetracked by emotions, but you can't let yourself give into it, ok?

I don't believe that the OW is meeting all of his needs because he wouldn't be talking to you all the time. Nor would he have become upset the last time you went dark.

When you go into Plan B, it will be real important to do this right, Lianne. You can't vacillate or it will do more damage to your relationship than if you hadn't done anything at all. Do it right by sending a good letter and most importantly, sticking to it! If you don't stick to it, he will not take you seriously.

Plan B will achieve one of two things: [or both]wake him up to what he has lost or it will enable you to detach from him. Either way you come out ahead. It is NOT EASY in the short term to do Plan B, but it is much easier on you, in almost every way, in the long term.


Don't worry about today, this is not a setback, Lianne. I know you are upset, but you have good reason to have hope if you move forward with Plan B. In Plan B, your pain will actually ease as you focus more on your life and less on him. So get up, dust yourself off and start thinking about a good Plan B letter.

<small>[ October 25, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

P.S. I just reread your post and the perfect encore to your conversation today would be a well worded Plan B letter. He is likely shaken up after your conversation today at the prospect of losing you. The worst thing you could do is calm his fears with a phone conversation.

If you do that, he will know that you make promises you don't keep and won't take any future pledges of no contact seriously. So please don't call him back, Lianne! Just send a Plan B letter. The stage is JUST RIGHT for the institution of Plan B.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bozos_ Deb:

It is time for plan B. I can tell you that many times when a LBS goes into plan B and start moving on (even if only on the out side) that is when the WS starts to really seeing what they have to lose.

[QUOTE]

Thanks Deb <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was feeling pretty upset and down yesterday, however today I'm a lot better. You know I've come through several months of H not being around anymore and having to accept that he has OW in the process, so I figure that if I came through that alive and still intact, I will get through this too!!

I've tried cutting off contact with him a number of times before, but he then pursues. I end up giving in and letting him sweet talk me again and because he's so nice, says he still wants to be there for us, promises that he will always be here for us, well....I end up losing my resolve. That was before though, before I heard of his plans to marry OW, which means divorcing me before he can do so. It puts a whole different perspective on things.

All along I've been thinking and hoping that there was a chance for us, because in the early months he did waver a lot between I and OW,(although it was all talk and no action) and because he has shown me nothing but kindness and concern. I've been interpreting his kindness and concern that he perhaps does still love me, that there was still a chance for us. I've reached the conclusion now however, that his kindness and concern for me was and is probably being done to ease his own guilt. He is fulfilling his own need to be the *good guy* in all of this and it's all being done for his own peace of mind and to ease his overwhelming guilty conscience. If he had any ounce of love for me, he would not be able to lie in the arms of another woman every night, he would be with me and his family. Period.

He has been gone too long now, for him to ever back track to our marriage I feel. Several months is a long time, a long time and a long period in which he and OW will have undoutedly now a strong attachment and formed a strong bond. OW also had left her H to be with my H you see and so she has most likely filed for divorce from her H to marry my H eventually. It's only a matter of time before H files. I can probably expect it pretty soon, especially now he knows that I am aware of his plans. I feel he used our daughter as a pawn, to deliver his message to me, proving he is a gutless coward if he did so.

The sitch could go one way or it could the other. As you say, a lot of WS's don't see the reality of the situation, don't realise what they have to lose, until it's gone. H hasn't actually experienced his life without me totally in it ~ he is now about to though.

<small>[ October 26, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

Thanks Melody, I really appreciate all this feedback you guys are giving me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I doubt very much that H will have taken my recent phone call to him seriously either, for the simple fact that I have tried to cut off contact several times before and have failed to carry it through. It's not that long back that I'd told him that while he remained with OW, then he was no part of my life. He'd then told me that things were not looking too good for him and OW anyway....LOL, but I didn't believe him. He was merely bluffing I think, to yet again try and weaken my resolve.

I fully intend to carry this through and am about to sort through PlanB letters to guide me into writing my own.

I have no intentions of calling him on the phone or answering his calls btw...so don't worry that I will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I won't be sweet talked again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Will keep you updated and will send over my PlanB letter shortly.

Thanks again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good girl, Lianne. I would emphasize in the letter that you are not interested in any contact until he has ended all contact with the OW. Then when he calls you or something, just be sure and sound like a broken record: "have you ended contact and moved out?" If not, then you have nothing to say. CLICK.

He will try every trick in the book to get you to waver in your stance. The reason is that as long as you stay in contact with him, the longer he can stay on the fence. DON'T LET HIM!

In your earlier post, you were making an awful lot of assumptions about H and OW's relationship. Don't. You really have no idea what is going on in that R.

I thought my H and his OW were stabilizing their R, but it all seemed to go haywire very quickly.

What MB warns is very true: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

The trouble is, is that I know far too much about H and OW's relationship, or at least what H or our daughter has told me of it.

Since H left, he has tried to involve me in his new relationship you see, I know everything. He told me a few days after leaving, all about OW, how she was stuck in a 10 year marriage with an abusive husband, how OW has never had anything all of her life, how she has lived most of her life in fear. It's almost like he was seeking my approval of his doing what he did and why he chose her and that he was wanting me to feel sorry for the woman.....LOL. Strange that she wasn't frightened of her H when she dropped the bomb on him and told him she was leaving him for another man though, this is why I don't buy the crap.

If I'd given H the chance back in the early days, he'd have even had me going to OW's for tea and scones. I got the impression he'd have loved for us to have all been one big happy family.

He has also compared I and OW to one another and of course she is the one who always comes up wearing the halo and smelling of roses. He's given me reasons as to why he chose her over me. In the early days his reasons for leaving were that he loved her, she made him feel him alive, he'd never felt the way about anybody including me, to the way he'd felt about her. These days however, it's because she is always there for him, she supports him, etc......he still tries to justify doing what he did.

Do I want to hear all of his bull about how great life is with OW/or how wonderful she is? No!! Do I want to hear of what OW's husband has done to hurt them both lately? No!!! Yet he will still feed me with it, as if he thinks I should be or am interested in it all.

I know of holidays they have taken, I know of a small tattoo OW has on her shoulder with my H's name in it, I know of gifts and birthday cards that my H has bestowed upon her and the *Happy Birthday, to the Love of My Life* that was written on H's card to her. The expensive watch and hotel rooms he has bought.....blah, blah, blah.....

Everything I know are all pointers toward the fact that this relationship isn't just a flash in the pan, it's far more serious than that and I really, really do think that it will lead to marriage.

H would not have left me nor his family behind, if it wasn't something serious or if he'd thought it wouldn't have lead to something more serious between them. He is not a man given to flights of fancy.

Apparantly and according to our daughter, they are already both wearing watches they exchanged as an engagement gift to one another. I figure they opted for watches as opposed to the exchanging of engagement rings, because neither of them are even divorced yet...

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong>

Everything I know are all pointers toward the fact that this relationship isn't just a flash in the pan, it's far more serious than that and I really, really do think that it will lead to marriage.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lianne, we have heard all this and more before. It still doesn't mean anything. They might get married, they might not. I have seen more promising affairs than this end abruptly. Most affairs ARE addictions and your H's is no different than any others. So don't throw in the towel so quickly. I have been reading this stuff for almost 3 years and your situation is certainly not hopeless. There are no guarantees, but at least there is SOME hope if you move to Plan B.

The bottom line is that you have to quit focusing on HIM and start focusing on yourself and your daughter. Take him out of your life with a Plan B NOW. In Plan B, the best outcome is that he comes back, the worst outcome is that you learn to detach enough that it is not so painful if you decide to move on.

But, you can't go on every day in this level of pain with your nose being rubbed in the affair day after day. And like I said before, you are simply ENABLING the affair by continuing to be there for him. I know its hard, but the best thing to do right now is to stay focused on your plan and move forward.

Lianne, another thing that occurred to me. He surely is not taking your daughter around the OW is he? If so, do you not feel uneasy about exposing her to such a sordid, sleazy situation? Is there a visitation order in place? If not, I think I would consider making it mandatory that she not be exposed to his affair.

Well he has called on the phone three times this afternoon ~ I just let the phone ring and ignored them all. I didn't even feel tempted to pick up the phone and hear what he had to say.

Of course you are correct Melody, I am ENABLING his sordid lifestyle with OW while I continue to be always there for him and remain his friend. While he's having the best of both worlds and everything is going to his way of liking, he will carry on in the fashion he is ~ why should he make a choice?

I am tired of having this affair rubbed in my face, sick and tired of hearing him trying to justify this affair over and over again, sick and tired of hearing him mentioning OW's name, her sons name, hearing of how wonderful his life now is and more recently, he is marrying her. If I erased him from life, then I wouldn't have to hear and be tormented with this crap.

I just want out of their sick love triangle.

I read somewhere, that once the LBS steps out of the triangle, then it takes the drama out of the WS's and OP's relationship. It is the drama that keeps these two together, united against the LBS. Once the drama is taken away, then it quickly becomes dull for the WS and OP, for they have then nothing to talk about, nothing to stand united against.

Only trouble is though, is that even when I have stepped out of the triangle and taken the drama away, OW's husband I understand, is still providing lots of it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know that I now need to focus on myself and my daughter and that is what I fully intend doing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thanks for the reminder, I think that we need to be kept being reminded of it. I think it's kind of a win/win situation with PlanB anyway ~ he could either come home, or it is going to help me detach even more and move on with less pain.

Melody, you asked if I allowed H to take our daughter around the OW. Yes, I have allowed him too and since week two of him leaving us. Pretty dumb of me I know and I regret now ever allowing him to do so. There are no court orders to say where our daughter goes or doesn't go. He has taken her to his and OW's home because I have stupidly allowed it to happen.

I have never been happy with the fact that he will take our daughter around this woman. One reason is because I am validating this womans existence and acknowledging their relationship together in sending our daughter there and another reason being is that I feel this is all sending mixed messages to our daughter. You see, while I have tried to explain in the best way possible to our daughter that what dad did was wrong, she may be wondering why if it's all wrong, then why do I allow her in their presence.
She must be very confused.

I have mentioned my disapproval of H taking our daughter to their shack up on many an occasion, he of course sees nothing wrong with it.

I have now decided though, that until a court orders it, our daughter will no longer be allowed in this other womans presence. Why should she also have to suffer their sordid affair rubbed in her face week after week, she is an eight year old child. A child that only ever knew *one* family unit, yet who now has her father exposing her to his floozy and her 11 year old son, expecting her to just adjust to it all and accept them as a new addition to her family. Not only that but he burdens her tiny shoulders in telling her secrets that she must not tell Mommy....

What the heck is the man playing at? He is treating her like she is an adult and not as his child.

<small>[ October 27, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

OK, am confused after reading another thread.

I read that if WS initiates contact with the LBS when the LBS has gone into PlanB, it's ok to answer the phone to them but absolutely no talking to them, just listen to what they have to say.

So that means I'm doing wrong in letting H's calls go ignored, as I did today..???? Should I be listening to what he has to say and if it's not what I want to hear, then hang up??

Or now I know there's a possibility he's going to divorce me and marry the woman, do I just cut him off totally?

I do know that if I'd answered the phone today, he would have only tried to sweet talk me into seeing his point of view again, as he's done soooooo many times before, so perhaps in my sitch I'd be best off letting him sweat for a week or two and let them go ignored and then after this period, then answer his calls and see what he has to say.

Lianne, absolutely not. You have not sent him your Plan B letter laying out your boundaries. Until he understands your stance, I see no reason to answer his calls. You told him you didn't want to talk him. In the letter you can give him the terms under which you WILL speak with him: ie: complete end to affair along with no contact letter. I would try and get that letter out real soon, though.

If he does call you after he sees the letter, I would listen to him and repeat your message: "have you ended your relationship with the OW and moved out?" If not, politely say, "we have nothing to discuss and end the call.

He will try everything to get you to back down. He will "negotiate" an ending in order some buy some time, ie: "let me gradually withdraw, blah blah, blah." You will hear every trick in the book to AVOID ending his relationship and getting you back in the fold. Don't fall for it.

Have you started on the letter? I would also suggest a go-between friend where you can transfer your daughter so that you won't have to see him. You will see that you will start calming down once you quit seeing him. It should be a huge help.

And have you thought about how you can protect your daughter from being exposed to the OW? I agree with you that its a terrible message to send her into an inappropriate situation like this. Its one thing for your H to be involved in this, but he shouldn't drag a child into this sleaziness.

Are you in touch with the OWH? It might be helpful to collaberate with him, so that he's not causing trouble on the other end.

Ok thanks Melody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

To be honest I think I'm losing heart in wanting to save this marriage. Sometimes I find myself thinking that perhaps I should just let him go because I have grown weary and tired of it all. I feel that I should just give up and move on, if he wants her, he can have her. If it was his marriage he really wanted, me, his family, I don't feel that he would have remained away from home for so long ~ he's been gone several months, it's a long time. I just have this gut feeling that I've lost him and he's gone for good, a gut feeling I've had since day one of him walking.

I think that the only reason I've hung on for so long and never totally lost hope, is because of the fact that in the very early months he wavered between I and OW, said he still loved me, would say he were unhappy with OW ~ these days I just do not hear those things anymore. I havn't heard an *I still love you* since July, the month he apparantly got engaged to OW and told our daughter of his plans to marry her.

Seems to me now that in the early months he kept me on the backburner and as a *safety net* incase all did happen to fail with his OW, now he's more secure and stable in his relationship with her than he was way back then, he's basically thrown me by the wayside, he has no need for me anymore.

Guess I need to have a good hard long think about what it is I really want to do, because at this point I'm not sure anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />