Hi Jazmom, thanks for replying. Hope you had a good Christmas, how did it go? Did your H make any contact?

Do you mean that my H perhaps is feeling guilty over his choice to be with OW, or guilty because he really isn't seeing our daughter as much as he'd like too?

Not sure what he is feeling, it is hard to tell. But one thing I know for sure is, is that of late he seems to be maintaining and keeping up very regular contact with our daughter, something he was not doing until a few weeks back!! It's making me suspicious. Why is he so bothered now about seeing her, when he didn't seem to be a while ago?? When he'd mentioned that he'd like to see her more and that seeing her for two hours per week was no good, I didn't respond, basically because I'd immediately assumed he was after taking our daughter to OW's home again, in which he would have our daughter for six hours rather than just two hours. If I'd responded he might have asked outright if he could take her back to OW's and I didn't want to give him an opportunity to ask or push for anything. We'd have only ended up arguing and falling out.

<small>[ December 26, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong> Well, stupid dork me broke my PlanB, so it's back to square one I guess and H gets another lease on his affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No,no, no, no, I don't think you did bad at all!! I suspect he was sort of down that day and thats why he wanted to come in. You let him in for just a "teeny" glimpse of what he was missing. Maybe it will give him something more to miss. And you did great! No lovebusters, no whining, no nothing. I think you did good, Lianne!

And I am very proud of you for holding your ground with your D's visitation. I am amazed at how hard he has tried to normalize this sordid situation. You have splashed some cold water on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
<strong> If I'd responded he might have asked outright if he could take her back to OW's and I didn't want to give him an opportunity to ask or push for anything. We'd have only ended up arguing and falling out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lianne, I would have a ready response so that he doesn't bait you into a fight with this question. Its real important that you remain firm here but don't lovebust. Maybe a good response would be to smile sweetly and reply:

"I am sorry, but I haven't changed my mind about this and can't allow her to be involved in that situation. You are welcome to increase your visitation time, though."

And if he persists, just end the conversation by politely saying you have to go.

<small>[ December 26, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

*breathes sigh of relief*...LOL, Melody, I was absolutely dreading your reply because I honestly thought I'd goofed and I was expecting a good telling off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So I did good then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> As I said, he was invited into the home to begin with because I had thought that he was spending some time with our daughter here, but you are spot on when you said that I was also wanting to give him a *taster* of what he was missing at home and his old life, because yes, that is exactly what I was thinking and wanted to do also. He had no hesitations when invited in either!

Have to say that he did love his home. It was his pride and joy because he had put so much work and had spent so much time into making this place our home and this was continuing up until the week before he left, when he was constructing a fish pond, which was about completed before he left. This is what makes me think that my H had absolutely NO INTENTIONS of leaving us.....he wouldn't have set about constructing this fish pond otherwise, nor would he have spent a huge amount of money on new furniture only three weeks before leaving, if he had plans to leave me. OW gave my H an ultimatum, when she was the one to tell her H of their 3 week affair and then she walked out on her H with her 11 year old son!! She had no place to go, had called my H....and he'd felt obliged to go to her and rescue her, being as he was part of the reason why OW had lost everything. He felt responsible for this womans welfare and of her being in the predicament she was.
My H is a 'soft touch' and always has been, he won't see anybody stuck!! However this is no excuse for what he did and he still made the choice to be with her rather than be with his family. When I'd asked him after he left, to come back home, he'd said he couldn't. He'd then went on to say that OW needed him more than I did, she had no place to go, she had lost everything, had no money, no clothes, no nothing, whereas I had everything I needed! So he saw her as being more *needy* than I was and that she needed him more than I did. But he wavered a lot between she and I after leaving....he was confused and seemed unsure of what he'd done and was doing.

It's strange but on other occasions when he's been in our home, he has seemed to move closer to me afterwards, he has seemed to get confused all over again. It seems that giving him a taster of what he left behind, jolts him back to reality....and this is what he needs I think, to be jolted back to reality occasionally and I guess I gave him another dose of reality yesterday......so we will see what transpires from here, however I have no expectations. It could be that he was *down* due to it being Christmas, hence he felt the need to return to his old life, even if only for a moment...the need however was still there to return!

Also, my niceness towards him confuses him I think and he has also drawn closer to me in the past when I've been nice, shown friendship, etc, etc. This is when he used to make phone calls saying he still loved me, he missed me....calls where it seemed that his fog was lifting. It seems that when I'm avoiding contact, when I back off and am not there for him to see, to speak too, he's interpreting all that as meaning I no longer I care for him, he becomes cold and distant again with me when he was drawing closer.
My PlanB I feel, will only serve to make it all easier for him to carry on in this affair because the NC of it all will make it all easier on my H. His confusion as I said, seems to sink in when he does see me, when I am loving and nice with him.....this is why it would be so much easier on him if I did not show him friendship, love or if I went total NC.

The trouble is Melody, is that I never paid much attention to him at home, his needs went ignored, I wasn't appreciative of him, etc, etc. And this is why I feel that sometimes, my being in PlanB is nothing more than my repeating those bad habits I had. This man *needs* to feel loved and wanted I think and not feel like he is being pushed away. Pushing him away, is what I was doing wrong in our marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NC and PlanB means that we can no longer show them that unconditional love except in the form of a letter. In PlanB we have told them in a letter they are loved and needed, but there is a difference between seeing this on a letter and actually showing and maintaining an unconditional love in the form of PlanA? My PlanA definitely brought him closer to me, the PlanB doesn't seem to be.....it is distancing him from me....yet seems to be bringing him closer to our daughter???

I just have this gut feeling that while PlanB may be the best thing for some, it isn't the way to go for me...but that doesn't mean I am about to start initiating any contact, etc, etc.....I ceased doing that months ago! All contact is initiated by him and has been for months! Meantime I merely get on with my life, focus on myself and our daughter and let him make all of the contact, all of the moves. If he does so, then remain nice, cordial and his friend.

Now I await my blasting....LOL! Could this be the right way for me to go do you think or am I totally wrong? Sorry this is so long btw <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Have taken onboard how to deal with him if he does mention taking our D to OW's again. Backing down on that is something I do not intend doing.
Thanks for the advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 27, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Lianne37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lianne37:
[QB] Do you mean that my H perhaps is feeling guilty over his choice to be with OW, or guilty because he really isn't seeing our daughter as much as he'd like too? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both - not much difference between the two, is there? It sounds to me that he is feeling less sure of his decisions. He's not defending his position as much as he was earlier, is he? I think that's because you are giving him less to react to: When you're not pushing, he has no reason to push back.

I agree with Melody that you need to have a pleasant response on hand about your D being around OW. Short, sweet, just a simple statement as she suggested. Don't get into debate with him about it. If he tries, just say you understand it's difficult for him but this is best for D at the moment. I would add a positive twist, too, about how much your D likes having special time alone with her daddy and how much that benefits her. Thank him for spending time with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why is he so bothered now about seeing her, when he didn't seem to be a while ago?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a common pattern. He's had some time to see what being away from her is really like. Doesn't really matter if the change is prompted by guilt or remorse--I'd just accept it and be grateful for your D's sake.

Isn't it crazy when they seem more concerned about the OW's feelings than those of their own family! Sounds like my WAH! It's like he's drug the OW into this and has to stay, like it or not! It's like now they've made their bed, they have to work hard to convince themselves it's a damn good bed after all. I think being loyal to the OW is also about my WAH demonstrating to himself that he's a good steadfast guy, after all. Twisted thinking, to say the least!

I'll post later about my holiday. My MIL is visiting WAH from across the pond which makes me crazy since she's been so mean-spirited to me. That's a whole story in itself. I'll clue you in later.

Melody's right, you did good, girl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NC and PlanB means that we can no longer show them that unconditional love except in the form of a letter. In PlanB we have told them in a letter they are loved and needed, but there is a difference between seeing this on a letter and actually showing and maintaining an unconditional love in the form of PlanA? My PlanA definitely brought him closer to me, the PlanB doesn't seem to be.....it is distancing him from me....yet seems to be bringing him closer to our daughter???
I just have this gut feeling that while PlanB may be the best thing for some, it isn't the way to go for me...but that doesn't mean I am about to start initiating any contact, etc, etc.....I ceased doing that months ago! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is EXACTLY what's on my mind, too, Lianne. I know my WAH thinks Plan B is spiteful on my part even though he says he really wanted it. Like you, I've had a few necessary brief contacts with him about our D (medical issue, etc.) and I'm confused about how to handle those while in B. I don't say much, it's all business, but I know my coolness is a LB for him.

Hope to see some responses to this from some wise MB souls!

Hi Liane and Jazmom
In case you missed this message by Lori, I am going to copy and paste it here.

She said she never went to Plan B, that she is just not a plan B type of person.
Maybe you aren't either. (I wasn't.)
Sincerely, JJ (Julie Jo)

lostva
Member
Member # 2596

posted June 15, 2000 09:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Missy!
OH, TNT, I do love you!!!

Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of hell". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!! ) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two LB letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a LB!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got that letter. And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as hell be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.


Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones! )

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

<small>[ December 27, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

The point of a properly executed Plan B is to pull the WS off the fence. If you have done a good Plan A, it can be very effective.

However, staying in Plan A too long only enables them to stay in the affair LONGER because they are getting their needs met in BOTH PLACES. Who, in their right mind, would give that up?? Plan B is the most effective tool in pulling a cake-eater off the fence.

And jazmom, of course they are angry when they can't have their cake and eat it too. But that's not a lovebuster. When they do have their cake and eat it too, it only enables them to drag out the affair LONGER.

They are not supposed to be HAPPY when you cut off their supply, that is part of the beauty of Plan B and the main reason it is so effective in pulling them off the fence. Even when it doesn't serve to bring them back, it has the benefit of protecting the BS from the hell of having their noses rubbed in the affair every day. And if it doesn't work out, the BS is already detached.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong> Hi Liane and Jazmom
In case you missed this message by Lori, I am going to copy and paste it here.

She said she never went to Plan B, that she is just not a plan B type of person.
Maybe you aren't either. (I wasn't.)
Sincerely, JJ (Julie Jo)

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Julie, with all due respect, there is no such thing as a "Plan B" person. No situation is the same, but the principles should be applied as the situation dictates, not based on what kind of person you think you are. Admittedly, Plan B seems hard, but it is often much harder to get divorced. Plan B shouldn't be avoided because its "hard."

Plan B is the most successful solution in most cases. Lostva was able to avoid Plan B because she had few opportunities to do Plan A because of her very limited contact with her H. She couldn't very well go to Plan B without having ever done a thorough Plan A. Going to Plan B without having done a good Plan A is just as destructive as dragging out Plan A endlessly. You can't use her case as an excuse to blow off Plan B.

I would just advise folks to try the Marriage Builders principles first. The Harley's are amongt the most effective and successful marriage counselors there are. Their principles are tried and proven. I woulnd't be so quick to dismiss them.

<small>[ December 27, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Jazmom, nope he sure doesn't defend his posistion like he used too. In the early days and whenever I would kick up a fuss about him taking our D to his and OW's shackup, he would threaten to withold money and such. He would also not bother coming to see our D for this reason, hence why I would give in and let him continue to take her to OW's. I was afraid he wouldn't want to see our D, if I didn't allow him to take her there.

Since the last time I told him he wasn't taking our D to OW's and I never backed down, he seems to have accepted it, hasn't attempted to blackmail me and if anything, contact has become more regular between H and our D. I am amazed at how much contact he has been having with our D lately as compared to the contact he was having....perhaps his fog is lifting a little. It seems that he's reconnected with our daughter and the loving, doting father he was at home, is beginning to resurface again. I'm happy for our daughter because she does love her dad a lot. I can see a huge difference in her since the contact with dad has increased, she's a whole lot happier.

Lostvas H sounds a lot like mine. I was fed exactly the same lines she was, mine too changed from a faithful,loving, caring husband and a loving, doting father overnight, into someone I didn't know either. It just was not my H!! Nor was it my H to just walk out on us, on all that he had seemly loved and cherished. His family, my family were in total shock.....it was not the man they knew either! Four weeks previous to him walking out, he had told a friend that he LOVED his family, that he DOTED on his family!! He'd had no intentions of going absolutely anywhere!! It's like he was forced to leave, like he had no option but to leave us behind....it wasn't like him to walk out on us for a woman and for a woman he'd known only three weeks!! I guess only he knows why he did what he did.

Melody, when you mention that Lostva continued in PlanA because she didn't have much contact with her H, I didn't either and I guess this is a reason why I lingered on in PlanA. My H didn't pay out of the blue visits to my home just to see me or anything like that in which I could PlanA. The only time I would see my H, was when and if he came with child support and two minutes a week face to face contact when I would take our daughter to see him.....so there was limited contact between H and I too. He would occasionally call on the phone (he ALWAYS initiated contact, I didn't) and we would talk.....I would PlanA my a$$ off, but still it wasn't a particularly great PlanA. If only I hadn't heard that H was planning on marrying OW, I think I would've continued in PlanA for a while yet because I did feel we were drawing closer.

Melody, I think I screwed up earlier when I tried to mix and match MB principles. Actually, I was following divorcebusting for awhile time before discovering this site. I'm in Plan B despite having the same concerns that Lianne does.

Before going to B, WAH and I had very little contact anyway so I don't think I was meeting his needs at all during Plan A. If anything, I think my positive demeanor only confirmed for him that I was gonna be okay and he was doing the right thing. WAH hasn't appeared to be on the fence except for a couple of very brief waffling episodes. He's the kind of man who can't admit he's made a mistake--would rather fly the plane into the ground!

I don't know that he's unhappy with plan B--on the contrary, I think it suits him just fine! Even though I was very clear with him why I wanted to stop contact with him (preserve the love, etc), I really believe he sees it as an attempt to manipulate him (which it is, truth be told!). I am sure he and OW have discussed it and see it as one more screwy move on my part.

I'm standing firm but I do worry that there are now very few opportunities for him to see the new and improved me. As Lianne said, I'm wondering if this is the right course after all.

Lianne, yep, I had the same experience as you when I put my foot down about our D10 being around OW. SO far he's complied which is a real change from his earlier stance. But just lately I think he's slipped a bit, at least in spirit - hasn't had her around OW but is making phone calls and telling D10 he's going to her house while my MIL babysits. That's making me mad. He even asked our D if she really minds being around OW. Of course, D says no because she's a child and can't/won't tell her dad the feelings she shares with me. I get all the "real" stuff from our D while WAH gets nothing but smiles and "everything's fine, Daddy!" He doesn't have a clue about the tears and hurt she shows me.

I'm rambling. . .oh, I hate this and wonder if it would just be better to have it all done with!

I'm standing firm but I do worry that there are now very few opportunities for him to see the new and improved me

Same here Jazmom. If I and H had been having lots of contact previously and I'd been meeting his needs during PlanA, I wouldn't have had no qualms now whatsoever about doing a firm PlanB because I would know I'd done my best during PlanA.

With little contact during PlanA coupled with the fact he had OW, was living with her, hence OW was in his life 24/7 and he was preoccupied with her -I was given NO OPPORTUNITY to meet my H's needs in PlanA! OW was doing a pretty good job of meeting his needs in PlanA and obviously still is in PlanB. All I did basically in PlanA, was be nice and friendly if I saw him, it's all he gave me the chance to do.

If anything, I think my positive demeanor only confirmed for him that I was gonna be okay and he was doing the right thing.

Same here! If I'm happy, he appears happy and contented, or at least that is the way it seems. My H did however appear to be confused and to be wavering, but this was way back in the early days after he left, when undoutedly he will have been going through *withdrawal* from I and our daughter and through his transisition from us to the OW. This happened between four weeks after he first left to around the fourth month after he left. I would recieve phone calls where he said he still loved me, he missed me, where he would say he were unhappy with OW because he still loved me. On two occasions he'd wanted to come home and we talked reconciliation........it never happened. I think he was making these calls when he and OW were not getting along so well.

He wasn't a *cake eater* as such where he would turn up unexpectedly at my home and expect to be let in and still do what he wanted while in my home and for the first four months after he left, he didn't even look near my home, he kept well away!!! And so the only time I saw him at all, was when I would take our D in the car to him and I would see him for two minutes at a time and once a week. He started coming to collect our daughter from my home, when I'd insisted that I was no longer going to be his *taxi service*, that if he wanted to see his daughter then it was up to him to come and collect her himself. It was at this point that he began showing up at the home, I left him no choice really.

There were periods when he would call on the phone a lot though up until around early October, when he'd been gone for around several months and periods where I heard hardly anything from him at all. Not sure if I was meeting needs or not during these calls. He would initiate R talk a lot though, mostly still trying to justify why he'd done what he did. These calls seemed to stop when I found out from our D he was talking of marrying this OW. Now I don't hear from unless he's dropping off child support/seeing our daughter - there is no other communication at all.

I reckon PlanB suits my H too, because it's when he doesn't have to see me that he can live a lot easier with himself and what he did. It's when he does see me that he seems to get confused all over again.....or at least this is the way it was seeming.

Happy New Year 2004 Melody, Jazmom and anybody else who may be reading this. Hope a good one lies in store for you all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well the holidays are practically all over and done with and I'm pleased. Have to say that I found New Years Eve a whole lot harder to cope with than I did the Christmas period. I spent the night quietly at home with my daughter, (H and I would always spend NYE at home) - so again and as with Christmas, it was pretty much the norm other than H not being here. I was in bed well before the New Year arrived, I just didn't feel like hanging around and seeing it in.....but well it is here now and so I intend to make 2004 my best ever yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've also been doing a whole lot of thinking this past few days and despite what I said above, I've decided to continue in and stick to a firm PlanB.
Regardless of whether I did an excellent PlanA or not, I did what I was able to do and given the chance to do. Over the course of this past nine months I have tried my best and I gave all that was possible for me to give, in order to save my marriage - but to no avail. I've made physical as well as inner changes, changes that H has noticed. I continued to remain his friend, tried to meet as many of H's needs as he was allowing me too, (hard when there is little contact and OW involved)......but despite everything I've done, he remains with the OW and shows no signs of returning. And so, to linger on in PlanA is pointless and unlikely to make one iota of difference in my situation because I've done all that is possible for me to do and can't do anymore than I have. The only thing I have not done to try and save my marriage, is a FIRM PlanB.....it's the only option now available to me.

I have made up my mind that I will not tolerate being disrespected, disregarded, misused, abused, etc, etc and while my H continues on his sordid life and affair with his OW, he continues to be disrespectful of me, continues to show disregard of me, despite his sickly sweet niceness towards me when in my presence. When someone continues to hurt you in their actions, then it's time to make your absence felt in their lives - this is what I intend doing.

And so back to PlanB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Happy New Year to you, too, Lianne! I sincerely hope this is a better year for you and your daughter.

I do agree that Plan B is your best option and I won't rehash all the reasons because I have stated them ad nauseum. However, I think you have done a pretty good Plan B thus far unless there is more that you haven't discussed.

I guess my concern is your Plan B letter. Has he ever mentioned it? That is such a key element of Plan B that I just want to make sure he understands the point of it all and sees a clear path back.

Hi Melody

He has never mentioned the letter I gave him. I reckon he's still too far gone in LaLaLand, still in awe of his OW to have taken any notice of it nor care one way or the other.

The thing is, is that when we LBS's share kids with our WS's, our WS's know that we cannot just simply shake them off and out of our lives, despite the fact we are telling them that while they have OW then we can have no contact with them because it hurts us, etc, etc. They don't have to fear losing us totally because our kids keep us bonded to them - the WS has a reason to keep coming back and they know it!!. My H has told me many a time that we will ALWAYS be part of each others lives because we have a daughter, that I can't just cut him off, I NEED him, etc, etc. And so he is happy continuing on in his sleaze, in the knowledge that he will always be a part of our lives, that he isn't *totally* losing us and that he can have both the OW and his family. I think he's content with just merely having a reason to hang on here in the form of our daughter! If he wanted to return home, he would use our daughter as his excuse to do so, because he has done it before when we've been apart. It would be so much simpler if there were no children involved.

I think the only thing I can really do now, is to make MY ABSENCE felt by him which is something I've tried doing, but have never carried through for a long period of time, (three weeks at the most). He doesn't appear to be taking any notice of the PlanB letter, but he might sit up and take notice if I'm gone *totally* from his life and stay gone.

What do you think?

Lianne, how would that be different from your current situation? I mean, you are in Plan B now and have been for some weeks. His occasional glimpses and short exchanges doesn't change that. You essentially have been gone. Am i missing something?

As far as his staying connected through your daughter, he does not have his family as he had before. He is no longer a part of your family. He is no longer a part of your life. He is now a part time father who is on the outside. So he doesn't have 2 families, he only has one.

I think that instead of working so hard to get a specific reaction out of him, you should work harder on rebuilding your life without him. Start focusing on YOU and your daughter. If he comes around, he comes around. But if he doesn't, it won't be so hard for you to deal with because you will be detached. I am not suggesting dating, but going out with friends and getting involved with church, women's groups, etc.

Lianne, how would that be different from your current situation? I mean, you are in Plan B now and have been for some weeks. His occasional glimpses and short exchanges doesn't change that. You essentially have been gone. Am i missing something?

I thought that a part of PlanB meant TOTAL NC - no glimpses, nor short exchanges, no conversation with them at all, etc, etc...

If occasional glimpses and short exchanges don't change the fact I'm in PlanB, then I've been in PlanB a whole lot longer than weeks, I've been in it months because really speaking since he left, all there has been between us are glimpses and short exchanges. I have not been initiating any phone calls nor contact whatsover with him for months. I've essentially been gone from his life since 13.03.2003.....but don't consider myself truly or *totally* gone because there is still some contact, no matter how brief. Basically all that has changed, is for me to have passed on a PlanB letter.

As far as his staying connected through your daughter, he does not have his family as he had before. He is no longer a part of your family. He is no longer a part of your life. He is now a part time father who is on the outside. So he doesn't have 2 families, he only has one.

He has been a part time father, hasn't been a part of our family or my life, has been an outsider since the day he walked out. The fact that I've gone into PlanB and passed on a letter doesn't automatically and suddenly make him all those things and I doubt that PlanB letter would have suddenly made him realise what he had to lose. He knew full well what he had to lose/was losing, the day he decided to up and leave....but still, he has not really lost us totally because he can still call or show up at anytime he feels like it to see our daughter and in the process, try and get his *fix* of seeing me.

I think that instead of working so hard to get a specific reaction out of him, you should work harder on rebuilding your life without him. Start focusing on YOU and your daughter. If he comes around, he comes around. But if he doesn't, it won't be so hard for you to deal with because you will be detached. I am not suggesting dating, but going out with friends and getting involved with church, women's groups, etc.

Of course you are right Melody, I do sometimes think of doing things that would be more likely to get a reaction out of him than anything else I'm doing. I tend to look at things that havn't worked, then to look at trying something different I could do that may work. But then as with Jazmom, I was following the Divorce Busting plan for quite a while also previous to finding MB and DB tells us to try something different if nothing else appears to be working and I get kinda mixed up.

But anyway you are right, I need to quit obsessing over what I should/should not be doing and get on with my own life and leave him to his.
I've been thinking of him and my situation more I guess, because of the holiday period. I was doing quite well and just getting on with things before that.

I have set goals for 2004 that do revolve around me and me alone. My NO.1 goal is to get back into employment ASAP, to enable me to get back on my feet financially so that I am totally independant of H. He knows that I am still *needy* of him and far too dependant on him for this money pittance he shells out when he feels like it - well that is going to change in 2004. He still has a responsibilty to pay child support and whether I would be working or not, but the CSA can deal with that. At the minute I just feel like a pauper when he hands this money over to me, like I'm begging for this money - I just loathe having to be dependant on him for anything and having him know I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think that once I am back on my feet financially, then three quarters of my battle will be won. At the moment I have a car that I can't drive because it needs repairs doing that I simply can't afford, hence I can no longer drive to see family and friends as I was doing a few months ago. I'm totally housebound at the minute and living like some hermit and have been for around five months, because family and friends live over forty miles away from me. Bus fares are so expensive, I just can't afford them. Remember, H and I hadn't lived here for very long in this new town, before he deserted me. I didn't know a soul here before we arrived and still don't, apart from a female friend over the road who is married with five children.

Getting back into work would solve the majority of the problems I have. Perhaps not H himself.....LOL, but once I'm back on my feet, in work, have use of the car again, once I'm getting out to see family/friends again, can have some kind of social life, I will be a whole lot happier.

Please don't give up on me Melody, I'm not as yet a lost cause. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If occasional glimpses and short exchanges don't change the fact I'm in PlanB, then I've been in PlanB a whole lot longer than weeks, I've been in it months because really speaking since he left, all there has been between us are glimpses and short exchanges. I have not been initiating any phone calls nor contact whatsover with him for months. I've essentially been gone from his life since 13.03.2003.....but don't consider myself truly or *totally* gone because there is still some contact, no matter how brief. Basically all that has changed, is for me to have passed on a PlanB letter.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lianne, you weren't in Plan B when you were having long lingering phone conversations with him on a regular basis. That is the difference between Plan A and Plan B. In Plan B, you stop meeting their needs and you END CONTACT. You have essentially ended contact. Your short exchanges regarding your daughter do not constitute "contact" in the sense we are talking about. You stopped meeting his need for conversation and stopped reassuring him, via your willingness to converse with him and listen to his woes, when you went to Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has been a part time father, hasn't been a part of our family or my life, has been an outsider since the day he walked out. The fact that I've gone into PlanB and passed on a letter doesn't automatically and suddenly make him all those things and I doubt that PlanB letter would have suddenly made him realise what he had to lose. He knew full well what he had to lose/was losing, the day he decided to up and leave....but still, he has not really lost us totally because he can still call or show up at anytime he feels like it to see our daughter and in the process, try and get his *fix* of seeing me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agree to the first part. He did cease being a part of your family when he left and Plan B doesn't change that. And yes, he has lost you, you don't see or communicate with him anymore except to exchange the daughter. Getting a "glimpse" of you doesn't give him a fix. If you feel it strangely does, then stop it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But anyway you are right, I need to quit obsessing over what I should/should not be doing and get on with my own life and leave him to his.
I've been thinking of him and my situation more I guess, because of the holiday period. I was doing quite well and just getting on with things before that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is one of the benefits of Plan B, when you are not in constant contact, you are in less pain because your nose is not being rubbed in it every day. It is very therapeutic.

I would also remind you that when Plan A doesn't work, as it didn't here, it is time to move to Plan B. You feel like Plan B hasn't been effective, but you simply don't know. You don't know what your H is thinking and I see that you often, with the absence of information, take license to ascribe emotional states to him. For example, you stated earlier that Plan B had just made him perfectly content. How do you know this, Lianne? He didn't appear too content when he came to your apartment for the first time the other day. My point here is that you shouldn't torture yourself with this. Who knows what he is feeling? You don't and I don't. Obsessing about it is bad enough, but you always paint it in a worst case scenario. [putting away 2x4 here!! you know I love ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have set goals for 2004 that do revolve around me and me alone. My NO.1 goal is to get back into employment ASAP, to enable me to get back on my feet financially so that I am totally independant of H. He knows that I am still *needy* of him and far too dependant on him for this money pittance he shells out when he feels like it - well that is going to change in 2004.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AWESOME plan! I agree that this will relieve alot of your anxiety and make you feel better about yourself. Have you considered moving in with your parents?

Lianne, you weren't in Plan B when you were having long lingering phone conversations with him on a regular basis......You stopped meeting his need for conversation and stopped reassuring him....

Yes, I have stopped meeting his needs and reassuring him, he just doesn't know it yet. Since early October he has not initiated any phone calls again like the ones he would make. I didn't go into PlanB until around November and he'd stopped calling well before then. He stopped after he knew I was aware of his eventual plans to D me and marry OW. It's kinda like he PlanB'd me, before I got the chance to PlanB him.

Getting a "glimpse" of you doesn't give him a fix. If you feel it strangely does, then stop it.

When he turns up to collect our daughter, he usually asks if mum is around and so I suspect that he still likes to see me else he wouldn't ask for me. When I answer the door, he will say stuff like "I will call for our daughter at 10am in the morning". What he has to say are always simple messages that he could quite easily pass on to me via our daughter. I also think he likes to see me so as to be reassured that I am ok, that I'm still looking happy and that I'm still on friendly terms with him..... so as to ease his conscience with what he is continuing to do. He has said that he hates to see me unhappy and upset....so it puts his mind at rest when he sees me and I look ok.

Who knows what he is feeling? You don't and I don't. Obsessing about it is bad enough, but you always paint it in a worst case scenario.

Yes I do have an awful habit of imagining the worst possible, I'm the same with everything not just with H. I tend to look to the black side of everything, then I'm not so disappointed if things do turn out all doom and gloom.....LOL. I'm a lot of a pessimist incase you hadn't noticed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have you considered moving in with your parents?

NO WAY!!! LOL. At 38 years old I don't feel much like moving back in with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've actually thought of moving away to be nearer them though, more so after H first left, but I love the home I am in now so much and I really don't want to leave it and have to start all over again on my own. It would mean packing up, moving, redecorating, carpeting rooms all over again......I just can't be bothered with all of that nor can I afford the expense moving involves.

Nope, I'm happy and content to remain where I am at the moment ....I just need a job to get me back on my feet, that will make me even happier.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lianne37:

Yes, I have stopped meeting his needs and reassuring him, he just doesn't know it yet. Since early October he has not initiated any phone calls again like the ones he would make. I didn't go into PlanB until around November and he'd stopped calling well before then. He stopped after he knew I was aware of his eventual plans to D me and marry OW. It's kinda like he PlanB'd me, before I got the chance to PlanB him.
QUOTE]

Lianne, how can he not know that you have stopped meeting his needs? You don't talk to him. You can't meet his needs if you are not in contact with him. You sent him a Plan B letter telling him not to contact you.

As far as him Plan Bing you, I seem to remember his frantic calls to you, which you wouldn't return, after you quit speaking to him once your daughter told you that he was going to marry the OW. But simply not talking to someone is not Plan B. Plan B is severing contact with a stated strategy for a path back. He has not done that.

Even so, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change your situation and doesn't change what is required if he wants to come back.

And I can understand your response to my suggestion about your parents! I would feel the same way but didn't if that was a possible solution for your situation.

I agree 200% that you should get a job. You will feel SO MUCH BETTER! It will get you out and about and you will feel much better bringing in an income.