</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong> sufdb, committed...

Two comments:

The well-being of the BS is NOT all that matters, generally. The well-being of the OP matters as well--or it ought to matter, to at least the OP (and foremost to the OP), such that they realize that 'well-being' does not equal participating in an affair.

sufdb...yes, everyones well-being is important, of course. The issue is how to proceed once one realizes the train wreck has occured. The concern on the table was tell or not tell the bs, that is what I referred to by saying all other reasons are irrelevant, except the BS need to know, and the obligation of any ethical person (be it op, neighbor, stranger, whoever) to reveal this info...just like reporting a crime, or being willing to testify etc.

I think I did address that the telling is also necessary for the op well-being too...it disconnects the op from the ws.

"ethical" is not reserved for BSs. Anyone and everyone can behave ethically, starting at any moment, in some small way. Anyone. And all should be called to that standard equally. Just as I said that hardly anybody tells the BS of the affair for pure altruistic reasons, also I say that no persons are good, in and of themselves. None. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Miss Lilly,
I felt compelled to write to you as I have been on both sides of the fence in this situation. My advice is to get away from the A as soon as you possibly can as there will be nothing but pain, and the most acute that you have ever experienced, should you chose to continue down this path.

I had an A many years ago with a co-worker who I discovered was the most manipulative human being I have ever encountered. He convinced me that things were so bad with his wife, they were considering divorce...all the usual lines. I was naive, needy and unhappy with myself and my life and instead of facing the problems, tried to solve them by distraction. Over the course of time though I began to question what he said/did on my own and started to do things to figure out what was really going on. Bad girl that I am, I hacked his computer and discovered all sorts of glowing loving emails from/to his wife about things that they had done and were planning to do. I also took it upon myself to get to know his wife and found her to be one of the most delightful people I ever met. She was highly intelligent, funny and was interested in many of the same things that I was. She WAS NOT any of the things that he portrayed to me. I pulled away from the A and begged the man to please talk to his wife and tell her all the things that he was feeling as she deserved to know all of it because she loved him. Then I left…moved 1500 miles away and never talked to him again. The worse thing that happened over it though was the guilt and depression that I fell into over hurting my H and family...this led into the second half of my life.

I was deeply depressed and withdrew from my H which got worse over the course of a couple of years. He thought I did not love him and got involved with a coworker. It was NOT a good situation and she basically pushed him into telling me what was going on. I did not know what her motives were, but I now believe that she honestly thought I would end the marriage and she would get him. No matter that she was married and her H would have done anything at that time to save their marriage; she would not let him because she convinced herself that my H was her knight in shining armor. All it did was make me more determined to save my marriage; not to spite her but because I loved my H and knew that given the chance, we could rebuild our relationship. But that was also my trump card…I KNOW my H and knew that her attempts at manipulation would only drive him away as that is the one thing he detests. I also knew that family, above all things, is most important to him and destroying it would have destroyed him too. I learned through emails and letters that she wrote him and he replied to, that he was telling her half truths and downright lies about our relationship. He was telling her just what she wanted to hear to keep her hooked. That is the nature of A’s and that is what you are getting too if I had to take a guess.

So what was the final outcome of it all? The man I was involved with way back then did end up divorced; his wife’s decision. I stayed with my H. The OW divorced her H, took off with another man and when that fell apart tried to get back with her H but he told her NO. She started calling my H again and he told her NO. Our relationship now is better than it has ever been after a lot of work but it has been at the expense of a lot of peoples lives and emotional upheaval. Believe me…there is no hell like that of being told that there is another person in the life of someone you love.

You are at the point where you can stop this train right now before anyone gets more involved. Please do what is right for everyone, right now. You have the ability and it seems the desire to set things right. Do it, for you as much as for anyone else. Living with the knowledge that you have caused so much hurt to unsuspecting people is not something that I would wish on anyone after having gone through it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, that was all very entertaining, but the issue is the protection of the BS in this circumstance. If you have a logical/moral/ethical argument for justifying continued injury (through ignorance) to the BS, would you please make it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To accuse me of justifying continued injury is absurd to say the least. The injury is occurring as long as she has not told him NO MORE. She has yet to do that. She cannot take the moral high road...nor ride that ethical horse UNTIL there is NO CONTACT on her part. Is that such a confusing point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is heading this way next week for another month (last minute job-he hasnt told her yet) I was so hurt by the comment and he just said he "didnt need the hastle" this week before he leaves town!! ARRRGH!! This makes me so mad that he still hasnt told her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see where she is telling him that she will NOT be seeing him while he is there. She is wanting him to tell his wife that she exists and that he WILL be with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some guys he works with knows about me and since this weekend Im wishing there was a way I could tell her (or have a man tell her-he'll think its one of the guys)
I know this is probably completely out of my territory but it is suddently eating me alive that he is getting away with this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't say that she it is eating her alive that he is getting away with deceiving his wife. It is eating her alive that he is getting away with not telling the wife about her. BIG difference if you ask me. The first one is moral...the second one is self oriented.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says he loves me dearly all the time and his marriage withered away years ago-NEVER had an affair before either ...hmmmmmm....and wants to be with me someday as he has 3 kids and cant leave "for a while" unless she throws him out!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...to tell the Wife just might make that happen a little bit sooner...huh? Throwing him out will be what it takes to make him cling to her. It will make him entirely hers.

I am looking and looking in that post...and NOWHERE does it say...

I DO NOT WANT TO BE IN AFFAIR WITH THIS MAN AND I WANT OUT.

I am seeing...

He is coming to town next week to stay a month.
Did she say that she told him he won't be visiting with her?

He wants me to use *67 when calling him on his cell so the wife won't know who she is.
Did she say that she will NOT be doing this and NOT calling him?

He tells me to not leave messages cause she will be checking them.

Did she say that she does NOT call him so this is all moot?

To tell his wife about me now would be a hassle in his life and he ain't up to it.
Didn't she say "This makes me so mad that he still hasnt told her."

Those are the logistics that I see...she laid them all out.

She wants the wife to know, in order to step in when he is thrown out. What is moral or ethical about that?

WE could all help her mount IF she decided to begin her ride with NO CONTACT.

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong> sufdb, committed...


"ethical" is not reserved for BSs. Anyone and everyone can behave ethically, starting at any moment, in some small way. Anyone. And all should be called to that standard equally. Just as I said that hardly anybody tells the BS of the affair for pure altruistic reasons, also I say that no persons are good, in and of themselves. None. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ethical cannot be found in the 'telling' of the affair...UNLESS ethical is found in the ENDING of the affair.

People cannot take the moral stand of telling the BS unless they have taken the moral stand of ending the affair.

IMHO...that is laughable to think otherwise. That is all that I am saying. Be ethical and moral in ALL that you do. You can't pick and choose where to act ethically or morally.

Had she posted that she has chosen to END this affair...that she will have NO CONTACT with this man ever again then I would take a different stand. She has NOT said that. IF she has, will someone pull out the text and quote it to me?

committed

MissLilly,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MissLilly67:
<strong>
Maybe I wasnt very clear in my original writing, but I AM trying to get out of this mess. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you'd like to tell us just what it is that you are "trying" to do to get out of the A. It seems that the consensus is divided as to whether you want to expose the A because you want to end it or if you want to expose the A for your own benefit and draw the WS closer to you.

Maybe you could enlighten us.

ba109

You know attacking someone who comes here for help is not good. Some of you have stated that you don't trust or believe her motives. So if that is true why are you still posting on this topic. You've made your statement.

I for one am a BS, I've read what she had to say and I believer her. I'm not gullable, I have commom sense, I also have compassion and Love.

Ba109, you do have a right to question her motives but not to continually attack. Same with the lame attempt at sarcasim from commitedandlovingit. Morals, ethics, yes we all have them, but frankly can any of us tell everyone that you do nothing wrong. That your morals and ethics are perfect. Or to quote someone who was and is the only perfect and moral human.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let he who is without sin cast the first stone </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes it takes people some time to wake up. MissLilly did know that he was a MM, but frankly he is a shark/user/immoral a@@wipe. They say and do anything to make someone a toy, so that even if they are a christian, with morals and values they can fall. My W is a christian, she was before the A she is now. I mean a born again believer.

MissLilly,

Tell his W, she needs to know the type of person she is married to. She needs to have the options of M or D. Working or kicking him out.
NC him and tell her. Pray before you tell, and continue to pray after.

Silverhorn,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know attacking someone who comes here for help is not good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it interesting that you feel this way yet you can so easily condemn the WH in this case without knowing the first thing about his situation other that what this OW has posted. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...but frankly he is a shark/user/immoral a@@wipe. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Practice what you preach.

ba109

MissLilly -

I am the OW. I am the WS. I am the BS. I would not trade my life for the world, but I have made some huge, huge mistakes. I know how hard it is to let go of a man and a fantasy that you've sustained for years at a low level of very wonderful stuff.

And it's like eating nothing but chocolate cake. Dang, it tastes good. And it will never sustain you the way chicken soup will, or a big pot of black bean soup with corn bread, or a bowl of mom's beef stew. (It's cold here today, and I'm in a soup mood. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

To quote the words of Master Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try."

You're trying to get out of this mess? Nah. You're IN this mess. Either you're in it or you're out of it. Sweetie, please. Get out of it and find a bowl of chili. (Mmm, chili.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you'd like to tell us just what it is that you are "trying" to do to get out of the A. It seems that the consensus is divided as to whether you want to expose the A because you want to end it or if you want to expose the A for your own benefit and draw the WS closer to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I don't think it really matters what her motives are....no offense Lilly...because the results are likely to be the same. Most affairs end because they are exposed with some exceptions like exit affairs.

So exposing the affair whether for good or evil motives makes no difference in terms of the outcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
[QB]To accuse me of justifying continued injury is absurd to say the least. The injury is occurring as long as she has not told him NO MORE. She has yet to do that. She cannot take the moral high road...nor ride that ethical horse UNTIL there is NO CONTACT on her part. Is that such a confusing point? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I find this whole idea of the OW telling the BS of her affair just as galling as committedandlovingit does. But, as galling as it is, the BS desperately needs to know she is being destroyed behind her back, regardless of the messenger.

The BS's need to know far supercedes the relevance of the OW's motivation. If someone is embezzling money from me, I don't give a DAMN who tells me, whether it be the embezzler or the cops, the point is that someone is harming me behind my back and I need to know this in order to take steps to protect myself. This man's wife needs to know so she can protect herself from him.

Admittedly, I don't believe for a minute that Lilly's motivations are altruistic [that is apparent in her willingness to rut with a married man in the first place] but the outcome is the same for the BS: MUCH NEEDED AWARENESS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I find this whole idea of the OW telling the BS of her affair just as galling as committedandlovingit does. But, as galling as it is, the BS desperately needs to know she is being destroyed behind her back, regardless of the messenger.


Melody,
I was hoping that you would weigh in on this. I have always thought you had a great grasp of this kind of incident.

I agree, she NEEDS to be told. Gawd, I wouldn't have cared if the OW had told me...but if she thought for one minute that I would have bought the "moral" stance she was taking in telling me, I would have called her the "B" for what she was.

People are encouraging her to tell because it is the moral thing to do... but she is still conducting herself immorally with him, THAT is what is really frosting my cookies. I want people to tell her that it is IMMORAL to be with him in the first place...and no amount of exposure in the name of "morality" is going to make it right for her to continue as she is. Tell him because his wife needs to be told ...don't tell her..."it is the morally right thing for you to tell her that you are fornicating with her H". The morals have been a little absent with her, if you know what I mean. I was having a hard time even digesting that some people here think that they could prey on her sensibilites to act morally in exposing the affair to his wife ...while all the time she is STILL "doing" him.

Or, am I the one confused? Does it not sound insane to think that?


Silverthorn
For every name you called the WH on this post, there is an equally vile name that you could call the OW. You seem to be the attacking the WH when it takes 2 people to make an affair happen. What makes him anymore responsible than she is? You really should watch the name calling. You cannot label one anymore than the other.

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>

People are encouraging her to tell because it is the moral thing to do... but she is still conducting herself immorally with him, THAT is what is really frosting my cookies. I want people to tell her that it is IMMORAL to be with him in the first place...and no amount of exposure in the name of "morality" is going to make it right for her to continue as she is. Tell him because his wife needs to be told ...don't tell her..."it is the morally right thing for you to tell her that you are fornicating with her H". The morals have been a little absent with her, if you know what I mean. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, I better understand where you're coming from. Some want to give her credit for a seemingly repentant act that really is no such thing. Because she continues in the behavior that victimizes the BS in the first place. I find it hard to give her credit for warning her victim when she continues to victimize her.

If the warning were coupled with an end to the destructive behavior and a sincere apology, she might get brownie points for doing the right thing, but to continue to destroy your victim sort of takes away any merit from the act of warning the victim. If you really care about the victim, you STOP harming her.

My 2 cents and I haven't read everything posted
Please tell the BS .

I just wish that all OW/OM would come right out with it if the WS doesn't . This BS is probbly going crazy knowing there is something looking for what ever she can to not feel like she was stupid .

I did this for months, I new something. My FWS told OW all the same things, that I knew the M was "dead" that he was going to leave soon but was working things out for the kids BLAH Blah

When I called OW and she told me this I was so amazed at the lies and so was she .

He was telling me he was depressed didn't know why and it had nothing to do with me he had things he needed to work out but loved me very much .

What I am saying is call his W call her tell her everything , be sincere not a victom although in away I know you are hurt as well thats understandable .

But keep in mind both you and MM made a choice his W did not . Please think about that do not take away someones choice .

If after that his W leaves him and he divorces and he wants a relationship with you that is not one that starts off with lies and betrayal then I would wish you the best .

It is cut and dry he is unhappy then he can leave , he can be a good dad or great dad no matter where he lives . when 2 parents give there love to there children and put there well being first then those children will lack nothing .

Thats JMO .

MISS LILLY<

Can I ask...are you Married or single? Have you ever been married? And btw...I am a ws and have 3 children and doubt very much so that this man would even consider leaving his wife. Just my .02.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meandgctbe:
<strong> MISS LILLY<

Can I ask...are you Married or single? Have you ever been married? And btw...I am a ws and have 3 children and doubt very much so that this man would even consider leaving his wife. Just my .02. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am single but have been married before-never had infidelity on either side.

Well Ba109 from the information given by MissLilly I can spot a shark when I see one. But your are correct I shouldn't condemn someone without knowing the whole story. Of course you don't know the whole story either.

Myself I try to be helpful and I wouldn't attack the person I consider a shark if he started posting. Because at that point he is seeking help, unless he is here to justify his A then I give my opinion.

Sorry if I offended you. Not my intentions.
commitedandlovingit same apology to you, just struck a cord.

MissLilly

Keep working on yourself, read what you can on this site, its all helpful. I would agree that when you tell the MMW that you do it for the right reasons. That you tell her after you have gone NC with the MM. For me it took me 7 weeks before I when and gave two letter to the OMW. I did this when my desire to inform her of what and who she was dealing with was more then any type of revenge I wanted. Now I feel no obligation to her. I do want revenge, I would be fooling noone if I said I didn't, but I've also turned this over to God. I pray about that daily.

Misslily, I'm going to answer your questions.
Why doesn't he tell his wife? Because he doesn't want her divorcing him!
Does she deserve to know of his cheating? YES!
Is he entitled to block his phones when away from her or even while with her? NO
My H carried on internet and phone A for months before seeing OW. An old high school girlfriend he found again. over 1000 miles apart!
When I found his and her emails, he had told her he wanted to be with her forever, and they would both have their freedom in the future to be together. She is married to.
All the time he was feeding her these comments, cards, love letters, flew to shack up twice in another state, he had never once told me he wanted a divorce.
If he wanted freedom, he could have had it by filing! He kept the A hidden because he know I'd leave him if he didn't end it. Which of course, would have ended his fun before he got to sleep with her.
The night I found the emails, they were together in another state, phones blocked until I got the manager to go say you better take this call!
I talked to her because he ran out by pool and hid! That told her right away he was not looking for divorce because all he had to do was take phone and say so!
He flew home same morning, and never has seen her again! No contact initiated within days.
If your guy wanted his freedom to be with you, all he has to do if file, after telling his wife. There is no time later when it would be any easier, or cheaper or better! Unless of course he's planning on waiting till all the kids are grown!
You are not only being used, lied to, deceived and betrayed, you're just a cheap thrill. In His mind that is!
What you should do is cut off all contact. Why? Because you're helping a man destroy his wifes world. Her pain will be tremendous and I am a BS so I know! There is nothing to compare to it so far in my life and I've had family die, major sadness and other things. It is a living hell on earth to find the one you love and trust is cheating. And yes, the OP is just as guilty by association!
Not to mention sin against your soul!
If you want to save yourself a lot of unendurable pain, get out now! Do yourself a favor and find someone single! You'll be doing all involved a favor.
BTW, I wouldn't doubt he'll replace you with someone new within a week. And for the record, if he travels to other cities, he probably already has OW. You know the old saying about sailors? One in every port.
This man has no honor whatsoever.
Say goodbye and mean it. In fact, do it by phone.
Families need their father and husband. And to be able to reach them when need be. One of our children who are grown, could have died while H was gone or even I could have.He left absolutely no way to know where he was or how to reach. Until I found the nice emails by cracking his secret acct! And he had not checked in home for a week.
Both children have had serious close calls with death and so have I.
Anyone helping a cheater hide out and cut contact from family is lower than whale Poop. Believe it!

Her H just wrote me the 17th he's dumping her! And she's going to pay big consequences as adultery divorce in their state means no alimony ever! She's 61 yrs old. So she's paying for her perfidy as well. While My H and I have rebuilt and happily planning our retirement travel plans! She believe all his lies about leaving me and marrying her! Yet he told the counselor it was all BullSh-- as he was just flipping out and seeking a temporary escape! That he would be miserable without me and never intended divorce or for me to know!
They're all pretty much the same! LIARS!
LouLou

Misslily, save emails and such from him, facts, dates, places. Then break it off immediately and let the wife know! She should know for her own health and well being.
And I would bet you're not the only OW in his life!
I say let her know. I hate that most everyone around a person knows such as you said his co workers know or friends. Why the hell should the wife be the last or one not to know? It's her life!
TELL with Proof!
LouLou

All that stuff he tells you about how bad his wife is? Well, when my X and I were briefly reconciled between one affair and another, he called that stuff "pillow talk", designed wholly and soully to get him into bed with her. Even then, when I wanted my marriage back, I could see how disrespectful he was of both me and his OW, and it disgusted me.

Get out of it now. Don't look back.

Jacky

ba109 -- sorry I did not post yesterday had a heavy duty, really exhausting family thing here. Just a lot of physical labor but the results are great!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by way2:
where did I say she was dragged into the affair?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I interpret this statement to mean that she was dragged into the A in some other way then by her own choosing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Metaphor -- to drag was a metaphor for the emotional sucking in that is an element of ALL close relationships.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She chose to involve herself.
She chose to be a distraction.
She chose to have an A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True on all counts BUT:

1. We live in a culture that has devalued fidelity.. look at how popular that d#mn Uncle Kraker song got.

Those who do not have a strong moral base or a weakend mental condition (such as depression) sometimes fall for what songs, tv's and movies seem to be validating.

(hey John Ritter and Sting both found their current wives (or wife until time of death through EMA ... anyone say anything?)

2. I doubt whether the OP automictally sees themsleves as a distraction until it is pointed out to them by an outside party.

Likewise I don't theink WS see that they are running away to a distraction unless . . .

3. see number one


I'm NOT validating her A with a MM .. I'm not!

In nothing she has written up to October 27, 2003 10:35 PM (EST) has she said that she will continue the A and it doesn't matter what WE say (I haven't gotten to read the rest of the responses .. I'm catching up)

I would rather talk to her here and get her to leave the A, go to NC and rebuild her life than to have her go over the TOW board where she could get further dragged into the narcissistic lifestyle many women display there.

way2

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>