Just Learning,
You were inspirational to me when I first came to this site 18 months ago and nothing has changed. (Including my ability to ask a subtle question. Still can't do it very well.)

digdigdigdigdigdigdig

that's me digging myself deeper..and deeper and deeper...

Men, are driven by sexual thoughts. Want data look up the research. In one paper I have read the claim was the men think about sex about every 10 seconds.

The occurance of men thinking about sex every 10 seconds does not automatically lead to being driven by sex...

the brain being chemical and electrical impulses..and being wired does not necessarilly equal a driving force..

it could be that it just is...
the occurance of sexual thoughts passing through the sysnapses...does not equate to a driving force in iniating and or maintaining a friendship...by males...
the thought pass through the brain in a fleeting millisecond...and are "normal" to the brain...and most likely not even acknowledged on a very conscious level..

the occurance of the firing of these sexual neurons would be totally natural for a male brain...
God could I generalize anymore myself on this post... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ??


Is it possible that women view male friends as they do female friends, thus leaving themselves vulnerable to those men that are willing to take advantage of that friendship?

they are vulnerable not because of the male brain they are vulnerable because it is damaging to a marriage to betray issues that exist with their spouse to either sex....
male or female...

males don't take advantage of that friendship...they are given signals..
and both male and female are potentially up for misperceiving those signals....

i am unfullfilled in my marriage...

without the signals from the female of unmet needs...the the male friend still has the same amount of the ten second sexual thought passing through....with no motivation to act on it...

and certainly some do act on it regardless of signals...those aren't men...those are just dogs... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Something else has to occur within that relationship to have an effect on the sexual impulses of a male brain....
or logically males would be victims to the ten second rule...thus engaging in all friendships in the same manner...
which is not the case...

dig dig dig dig dig dig

I do not disagree nor am I offended by any of this...
I just don't buy that the male wired brain...equal male sexual driven relationships with friends...

but then again I am naive... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK

ARK,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Something else has to occur within that relationship to have an effect on the sexual impulses of a male brain....
or logically males would be victims to the ten second rule...thus engaging in all friendships in the same manner...
which is not the case...

dig dig dig dig dig dig

I do not disagree nor am I offended by any of this...
I just don't buy that the male wired brain...equal male sexual driven relationships with friends...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARK, I really don't disagree with you. Either party could stop the "friendship" from going further and they don't.

But, perhaps rephrasing this a bit might make it clearer. Let's start with another "generalization" which is not really all that good, but permit me. Let me speculate (rather than generalize) that men are more hurt by a W having a PA, and women are more hurt by their H having an EA.

So given that this question was asked by a male, and given that the resulting relationship (affair) is bad, then the question might be: Does the A endup as a PA because the woman misunderstands the male motivation? It is a given it is going to an EA. In fact, a male my play on a woman's need for emotional connection to arrive where he wants: a physical connection. But, you might well argue this was not a true friendship but someone using the other persons and exploiting their weakness or the weakness of their marriage.

I still think this was asked as an informational question by the original poster. Wondering whether a woman not realizing that most men think about getting in woman's pants (whether they act on that or not) causes her to be more vulnerable.

You know one thing I have observed in this thread is that no one has simply answered his question with a resounding NO. That would be a valid answer, and perhaps lead to the discussion that has followed. But, no one has really answered his question YES or NO.

If you feel the answer is NO, why is that ARK? You know you could be right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

I think that was what Adgirl was trying to address. She even implied that women might use sex to achieve what they really want: an EA.

Correct. I was also implying that some men- especially men who are more emotional or sensitive- are also naive. Especially if you have emotional man + aggressive woman.
I think in my ex-'s affair it was the opposite though. I was the more aggressive one and he was more laid back- I truly believe in their case, he was the original aggressor and she was looking to get out of her marriage and found her out.
But I digress.....

<small>[ October 29, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

JL,

To be honest I didn't see a question anywhere in the original post...

BUT re-reading it the word friend is really "friend"..

I have male friends...I don't have any male "friends"...and don't plan on it ever...

Wondering whether a woman not realizing that most men think about getting in woman's pants (whether they act on that or not) causes her to be more vulnerable.

I don't think that my male friends think about getting in my pants....and even if they do so what...

even with the ten second rule in place..it is not a motivating factor in being my friend...it is just the wiring and firing of synapses...

So I do not think that my being friends with males is sexually motivated by them....

I don't think their thoughts can make me more vulnerable...I can always make myself vulnerable..

When I am with my male friends thinking of chocolate cake... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> does that make them gain weight...ha ha...

I remain accountable regardless of their thought process...

can males and females be friends...I think so...
with boundaries in place...definitly...
without sexual motivations driving that friendship?
definitly...


ARK

Ark,
Since I was the original poster, I'm the only one who can answer my intent. Not you. Yes it was meant as a question. To illicit opinions and conversation. A question can be posed as a statement that offers response while some questions are rhetorical in nature. Didn't think it would cause nasty responses (especially Oscar's}

CWMAC,

Are you tired of me acting like I can read your mind and failing miserably??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well, that won't stop me, no way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can males and females be friends...I think so...
with boundaries in place...definitly...
without sexual motivations driving that friendship?
definitly...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not agree with you more. I think the key is the boundaries and here may be the crux of CWMAC's question.

Men have friendships, sometimes very deep friendships, most men really never divulge to their friends things about their sex life, what is bothering them emotionally, their fears, etc. It does happen, but it is usually with a life long friend. Sometimes will brag about sexual things, but even that is mostly BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse here)

Now, I have observed that women do talk to each other. And they will talk about many things that men would find far to personal to speak to their friends about. I realize not all women do this, but I am constantly astounded by what women know about each other, and even each other's marriages, including sex life.

Now, if you will allow me these two observations, what I think CWMAC was alluding to, was that when women make friends with men, do they treat them the same way? Do they open up to men at levels men don't usually do about emotional needs, family problems, husbands, etc.? Now if they do, the male in question has just been given a road map to this woman's heart. He knows what she wants to hear, how she wants to hear it, what she likes to eat, what kind of flowers she likes,etc. Now IF this man is sexually attracted to this woman and odds are high that he will be somewhat no matter what, then he has a road map to the bed, IF there are no boundaries in place by the female or the male in question.

I believe that CWMAC may have been asking the following. If a woman views male friendships as female friendships, is she therefore less likely to put boundaries in place to protect herself?

What most men preceive as the "openness" that women seem to exhibit with one another, could lead to a vulnerability if this "openness" is offered to a male, especially a male without boundaries of their own.

How'd I do CWMAC? Was that your mind I picked up or was it the giant solar flare, messin with my brain??

ARK, does this make more sense? Or you still disagree?

God Bless,

JL

PS: If you ask me, I think the answer is yes, they are more vulnerable because women sometimes do not put that boundary in place, and further do like the male attention, especially when it can be focussed so that it meets her needs. Harley was no fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Adgirl,

Are you suggesting that men may be a bit naive about female friends??? All I can say is: "You KNOOOOW what I like." Said in his best Big Booper, Chantilly Lace, voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning,

All I need to say is..............Yoo da Man!!

By the way Ark^^^, there was a literal question in the title of the post

CPX,

An insightful list of things OM have in common, we should grow on a separate thread, maybe? What do you think of these, (heard from my ww)
- they never disagree with you
- they always pay rapt attention to you
- they all say they have never known anyone like you
- they all say they knew they always loved you and always will
- they all say you are the best in bed, far better than anyone in their life
- they all say there was something very special about the two of you together and that you both just had to be”


jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> Adgirl,

Are you suggesting that men may be a bit naive about female friends??? All I can say is: "You KNOOOOW what I like." Said in his best Big Booper, Chantilly Lace, voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely!!! I have a male friend that I have dated some. We both said we could date others too. He teaches with a girl and they are both first year teachers at that school. He says he is not attracted to her and that he is just friends with her and it is possible. Yet she oozes with like for him - body language, laughing at his jokes, showing up places where she knows he will be, asking him what he is doing after we go somewhere.....the usual stuff. My friends saw it right away. I saw it right away. He was clueless. He says they are just friends and she does not have feelings for him. I say RIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHTTTTT.
Of course, maybe I am naive to talk about other girls to someone I used to date and would like to possibly date in the future!

I guess that it all comes down to men knowing men best and women knowing women best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> I guess that it all comes down to men knowing men best and women knowing women best. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can males and females be friends...I think so...
with boundaries in place...definitly...
without sexual motivations driving that friendship?
definitly...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry I have to disagree here. Those boundaries normally have to include a total lack of physical attraction.

Women tend to become drawn to men they establish emotional intimacy with.

Men tend to respond to women that show interest in them.

Its a harsh reality that sharing such intimate conversations often leads to EA and then PA.

Survey all the one time only affairees and you will see for the most part it all started innocently as just someone to talk to.

Sorry this is a playing with fire area that even the Harley's say is off limits.

You see if you have the level of friendship described boundaries or not you are already changing the how love deposits are made between husband and wife. Plus you are setting up "secret" sharing a precursor to having an affair because the relationship even at the friendsip level has an air of secrecy shared between a man and woman who are not each other's spouses. And it has someone other than the spouse meeting the important need of emotional intimacy.

You want some form of statistical proof then keep in mind the largest place where affairs are born are in the work place. And its in the work place where males and females have a common bond with each other not shared with their spouses. So imagine the danger of sharing intimates feelings with someone not your spouse.

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> An insightful list of things OM have in common, we should grow on a separate thread, maybe? What do you think of these, (heard from my ww)
- they never disagree with you
- they always pay rapt attention to you
- they all say they have never known anyone like you
- they all say they knew they always loved you and always will
- they all say you are the best in bed, far better than anyone in their life
- they all say there was something very special about the two of you together and that you both just had to be”

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if you did a poll, most WS would say that every one of these apply to OP, whether OP was a male or a female.

OtG

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: OtG ]</small>

Since I was the original poster, I'm the only one who can answer my intent. Not you. Yes it was meant as a question. To illicit opinions and conversation. A question can be posed as a statement that offers response while some questions are rhetorical in nature. Didn't think it would cause nasty responses (especially Oscar's}

Well since i am just to stupid to see the question...thought it was posted more as a statement or belief on your part...which you are certainly entitled to...

By the way Ark^^^, there was a literal question in the title of the post

and with all honesty...I am having trouble seeing the literal question with the word friend in italics...

I know what I think the difference is between friend and "friend"...but am not sure what your differentiating use of the italics mean...

should women have male "friends" ? nope
can women have male friends ? yep

If you would like to clarify for me perhaps that would help..instead of just putting me down for being to dumb to grasp what you are "asking" that would be fine...


To take this deeper...it's almost like saying women communicate emotionally with people..and that emotional communication with other women is acceptable...and emotional communcation with males is wrong because of how men are "wired"

AND I do agree that the sexes communicate differently....

I think that people can betray their marriage and spouses with their communication regardless of too which sex they are communicating it..that boundaries should be in place for both sexes...

stunned said...
Its a harsh reality that sharing such intimate conversations often leads to EA and then PA.

i agree 100% with that statement...
And take it further that sharing intimate conversations with same sex friends can also damage a marriage. And if a spouse says to there wife that it is OK to initmately devulge to females not males...(and they may not say this concretely but imply/infer it by saying...

Oh you're talking to Suzie...and accept that talking to Suzie includes emotional marital verbage about needs and personal marriage stuff...
and then say

Oh you're talking to Joe and say that talking to Joe about emotional marital verbage is wrong because of how JOE's brain is wired is a mixed message and wrong of the (male) spouse in the first place...

Ownership lies with the woman's communication style...not the males wiring...

Are women naive about this...
OK...if that's what people want me to say here...

BUT the men (spouses) are naive in sending a mixed message to the wife in permitting it with females and drawing a line with males....

Women tend to become drawn to men they establish emotional intimacy with.

Men tend to respond to women that show interest in them.

Then how does one who is married establish social friendships with couples?

I in my lifetime have made friends...not "friends" with male co-workers...and being the social planner that I am...have then established friendships with their spouses...which has then lead to a friendship with those two people that includes my spouse as well...

not sexually driven...
driven by social needs...

And while I have male friends with whom my husband is not as "close" to as I am..it also is not on a sexual intimate basis...it is more on a history of socializing that was in place long before me and my spouse dated and married...

that i have male friends that I knew and hung with prior to marriage that I still have some contact with...

These friends are someone who I can be in contact with...do something social with...and not be based on a sexual wiring or pursuit...
I believe that and do not think i am naive...

I am not advocating male/female intimate friendships by any any any means....

Plus you are setting up "secret" sharing a precursor to having an affair because the relationship even at the friendsip level has an air of secrecy shared between a man and woman who are not each other's spouses. And it has someone other than the spouse meeting the important need of emotional intimacy.

agree totally with that as well...
if the original poster meant "friends" and not friends...then I agree...
are women naive about that....
could be...
but could also be that they know exactly what they are doing/saying to these male friends since they are the ones creating secrecy...creation of secrecy is not an naive act...

CW
If your post was
as you said...

[B]Since I was the original poster, I'm the only one who can answer my intent. Not you. Yes it was meant as a question. To illicit opinions and conversation.[B]

the surely I have risen to occasion to give opinion and conversation...
and for whatever reason it has appeared to anger you and others...
not my intent..
mean on offense
appreciate others opinions and thoughts as I a have always attempted to do here...

Perhaps I need to step away from marriage builders ...
dont' know..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ARK

ark

Hey please don't think differing views are personal attacks or put downs.

I have been "freinds" with numerous women and deeply to the point they tell me things as a man I would drather not hear. Including deep sexual conversation about their boyfriend (mainly when I was younger) and in a few cases husbands.

For me its very awkward because it is too personal. For many men when the conversation turns toward a woman's current love relationship boyfriend or husband a signal goes off telling them this woman might have an interest.

Men do instinctively get a funny feeling when women share deep personal thoughts with them. Those with good intentions and strong values tend to put boundaries. Those with good intentions and lower values don't and the risk of EA to PA increases based on how the woman acts in the futrue.

Those with bad intentions see an opportunity and the game is afoot to draw the "friend" into something more.

I made my wife tell the OM goodbye in person on tape. He had no idea he was being recorded. He went into this thing about how sorry he was things were bad at her home. And then the line that I had to laugh at (though at that time I didn't know the length or depth of the affair) was "that's what you get for trying to love your friends and helping them out."

The first day after discovery her told my wife (so she tells me) "well we are just friends do you want me to talk to him and tell him that?"

I am sort of reminded of Meg Ryans and Billy Crystal bantor in "When Harry Met Sally".

Trust us Billy Crystals (men) do instinctly become more sexual the closer the emotional ties to a female even when in the guise of friendship. Some men have the character to recognize that and maintain a safe distance.

But if one of your close male friends suddenly was out of a relationship for whatever reason divorce, death etc I can assure he would have a tougher time not trying to move things past just being friends.

jl...Oh Boy! I just love this.

sufdb...yeah, me too, and a topic I can't step on as many toes as usual (hopefully)....I have some opinions for later, but you said something often presented in the way you did that I sorta disagree with.

jl... Now I will make a "generalization" which I KNOW TO BE CORRECT. Men, are driven by sexual thoughts. Want data look up the research. In one paper I have read the claim was the men think about sex about every 10 seconds.

sufdb...This is just data, saying driven (your usage implying primarily) draws a conclusion that the primary motivator for male behaviour is sexual in nature. Depends on what you mean by that.....cause in "general" the primary motivator for all human activity is probably sexual...why? Cause if it weren't we wouldn't have survived to have this conversation. But even this is a bit murky without other data. You being a math and logic guy can appreciate we would need to quantify the energy output (of all kinds) of males (and/or females) they assess how much of it is devoted to various fundamental activities....for example, we might find we actually expend more energy feeding ourselves, or engaging in dominance activities (non-sexual ones)...I dunno.

But I am willing to hazard a guess that the greatest single energy expenditure for both males and females is in pursuit of mating opportunities....ie sex. However, if this is true, it is not only general, it defines being a human being (and probably every other lifeform on the planet as well)....and as such becomes a meaningless statement, might as well say males are males cause they um....all have red blood....but that begs the observation so do females, even though the blood of males and females is different.

My point is that driven by sex is a meaningless consideration, because it is an inherentcy in being human, and is allready taken into consideration in every choice every female or male makes. But the manifestation of these choices includes a complex array of outcomes which are "driven" by the particular female/male interaction at hand....which I think is the point ark has been trying to make.

My discomfort over using the data you referred to (and I agree with the data), is it skews the argument away from the premise, are women naive....no they are not. They have had hundreds of thousands of years to be fine tuned for their role in our species sexual dance. It also reduces men down to a kind of naievty as well, that somehow males shouldn't be sexual pursuers, but most of them don't realize it and can't help themselves. IMO the issue is should males and females seek opposite gender relationships other than sexual, can they do so, and how do they do so.

hey, ark, I pretty much agree with your positions, and intend to post some thoughts about friendships. Sorry mel, I disagee with your generalization as well, although I admire your eloquent defense of same. As for the side issue conflict over who means what etc. (which always seems inevitiable)....BORING I don't really much care whose feelings are hurt, or what the original poster supposedly meant or not, or whether someone was grouchy....this is a discussion, no ones life is on the line (like with other stuff here), so let every post simply be commented on re content....not tone...sheesh. Why do people constantly want to make discussions personal, danged if I will ever understand that....guess I must be defensively challenged or something, and can't percieve a need to respond (in tit for tat) to non-content items.

What possible contribution to the discussion is accomplished by say...un noting some poster is grouchy? Who cares, let's comment on what he said....likewise, what possible contribution is made by the "grouch" taking issue with being called grouchy? Ignore that, and respond to the content (if any), likewise the byzantine irritation the original poster seems to have with ark (which I confess I don't even understand)...ok, off my soapbox, just felt a need to lobby for more content and less personal bs (and I don't mean betrayed).