I truly do appreciate hearing your opinions. Many of you have been the voice that I am so successfully blocking out. And sufdb seems to understand much of how I feel.

H talked to me today and said he really needs me in his life. I agreed. I think it's mostly b/c that is what he wants and I do owe him much and, yes, though many won't believe it, I do still love him. I do still really wish that I had more time alone--without any man--to learn more about the person I am. I learned so much about myself during H's absence. But I will most likely do whatever he wants.

I don't understand that I need to try to create the things that I am feeling with OM in my marriage when they already exist elsewhere. In the hopes that one day--if ever--I will have forced my H to develop the same interests that OM and I already share? That I will have forced myself to enjoy the same things he does? Why does it have to be forced when it has already happened naturally?

Is it possible that sometimes a person meets someone they are just more compatible with and will enjoy life with more after they are married to someone else? Is it possible that maybe all parties involved can eventually go on to live a life in which they feel satisfied? (granted this might take a lot of time)

To all those working on marriages--I hope you feel in your marriage the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.

To all those whose marriages have been collapsed--I hope you find in your life the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.

Please keep giving your insights. Your words stay with me throughout my day and help me to see things from different perspectives. I appreciate the selflessness you display by taking the time to help me.

Never mind...that wasn't helpful.

I think we lost her.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

MTD

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

SonofWF: "Your husband has taken good care of you and the children and made it possible for you to obtain and education and get a good job and you repaid him by lying and cheating on him. And you call yourself a good person? Maybe he is the one that needs to decide if he wants to keep you!"

That thought frquently crosses my mind...

madly_truly_deeply: "The worst part is, you know of the pain you are inflicting on your H and children, but believe they will be ok because you are happy. After all, if you're happy, they must be happy, right?"

I know that even when I am trying to be happy in my relationship with H now but am feeling torn, I can see it reflected in my H and our kids. So this would be better?

Are you positively sure that your OM is up to the task of being a step-father to your kids? If you don't know the answer then you better find out soon because if he isn't then you can be sure that your relationship with him will have a very short lifespan. You have to keep in mind that very few men are up to the task of willingly accepting the challenges and responsibilities of helping to raise another man's children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by S.H.:
... I hope you find in your life the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this exists for you only because there's no other reality between you. you feel the way you do because -- as is so easy to do in a marriage -- you and your husband never developed the skills that keep marriages happy (or at least continued to hone the skills the keep marriages happy).

as i mentioned in an earlier post, with your husband you have a mortgage, and snotty noses and dirty bottoms to wipe. the om gets all the good stuff.

how does your husband compete with that? it's not possible with om in the picture. right now you have the best of both worlds. another man to meet some needs and a husband that meets the others.

on d-day, my wife said, "i just don't think you get to choose who you fall in love with." you're implying the same thing. the question is complete drama, to quote 2long.

you're getting a lot of good advice here. and you came here for a reason -- something seems to be screaming for you to stay with your husband ... that, despite your love to end all loves with om, you really feel you belong with at home with the man you married.

it might be worth, as others have suggested, seeking out as many former wayward spouses as you can find here.

you might also give a shout to cerri here. she's a marriage counselor schooled in the marriage builder ways. she's also both a former wayward and a former betrayed. she has lots of honest insight not many of us amateurs can give you.

To Whippit:

Thanks for the advice. I think that H and I could both benefit greatly from professional (preferrably non-religious, as this is one of my hang-ups) advice. I don't know about "screaming for you to stay with your husband," b/c what I sense there is more a feeling of duty or guilt.


To Too Much Coffee:

Of the many things I am attracted to in OM is that he is a great father to his children (already off on their own).


To madly, truly, deeply:

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.


To SonofWF:

You said, "Further more you have no regrets! You think it is just fine what you have done. And you say you have always done the “right” things all of your life? You need to reexamine your heart and your morals more carefully because what you SAY about yourself and what you are DOING are completely opposite."

I suppose I meant to say is that--up until the moment that I got intimately involved with OM that I feel that I have always strived to do what was expected of me, what I ought or should do, and what was "right" in society's eyes.


To AM Martin, LowOrbit, Snowbelle, and Deadatheart:

I feel that you can empathize with what I am going thru. But how do I force myself out of the way that I am feeling/thinking (or not thinking)? What I have now and what it used to be (yes, I can remember) pales in comparison to what I feel now. Someone said to start trying. Well, what have I been doing? I had always believed that what I have/had is what was going to be forever, so yes, I have/was already trying.


To ark^^:

I said, "I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship

You said, "It is the same as saying...yeah I was beat as a child..and I came out OK...so I will beat my own children..."

I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." Instead of, "OK, I may feel differently now, but I made a promise and, regarless of my feelings, I have to stay, since I am worth less than anyone or everyone involved." I hope that they find it the first time they take that step, but I will understand if that is not the way it happens.


To SonofWF:

You said, "You and OM lied and deceived your spouse’s. You poor husband was called up to serve his country and his wife couldn’t wait to start and affair and had sex with another guy."

H and I made it thru 10 months of his overseas tour w/o any infidelity. The 10th month was his mid-tour. (Meaning he was home for that month.) It was only a few days after he left again that I felt compelled to tell OM about my feelings. I don't understand this, but it was not about sex. (H and I hadn't missed a day when he was back.)


To All:

No, OM is not married. In fact, his ex left him for another man. He says that at the very least this experience helps him understand what she must have been feeling and wishes her the best if that was the case.

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: S.H. ]</small>

Dear S.H.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But how do I force myself out of the way that I am feeling/thinking (or not thinking)? What I have now and what it used to be (yes, I can remember) pales in comparison to what I feel now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I came to that EXACT SAME conclusion. You are at a crossroads that will take courage, conviction, and strength of will to get through.

I suppose it's possible one could meet their "true companion" after years of marriage. But what will you do after you marry this guy and meet a "truer companion" still the following week? Will you drop you current love for him?

This is not about your husband or the OM. This is more about how you are going to CHOOSE to live your life. Will you follow the influence of the chemical soup in your brain or will you choose to follow what you know to be right?

We can argue morals all day, but I suspect you know in your heart of hearts what you need to do. What you really need to do is summon the courage to do it.

I certainly don't hold myself up as an example, but if you look back over my posts, you'll see the evolution of my feelings. After I let the OW go, I struggled for weeks with the thought that I let go of my one chance for happiness. But I have to tell you that my wife and I called up the courage to change what we had into something wonderful...something better than we ever had before. Something better than my affair ever was.

Yes, it was work. Make no mistake - all relationships are work. But the payoff was immeasurable.

During and immediately after my affair, my kids were sullen and were acting out their anger at me in all kinds of ways. Poor grades, promiscuity, etc. Thankfully, we're better now. Never kid yourself into thinking this won't have a big impact on the kids. It always does. Some are just better at hiding it than others.

Whatever you choose, I wish you happiness in it.

Low

The recreation of definitions to meet our own needs is a re-current theme you see around here...

Of the many things I am attracted to in OM is that he is a great father to his children

See here's where you change the definition...
Good Fathers are not just good to their own children...but to all children...including your children...Good Fathers do not come between the existing relationship that exists between those people and expect the real father to step out so he can step in...


You can sugar coat and try to make this some deep mysterious path of light in your life....but it's not...
no matter how you change the definition..
It is ripping your childrens lives apart at the seams...
all in the name of a new man in your life and bed...

and that you believe that all your children want if your happiness...is laughable...
children are way to egocentric and narcissistic in their developement to care about your sexual and emotional fullfillment...

If this is true...then they want their father to be happy as well...and if being with you makes their father happy...then why does your "happiness" win over dads...these are the real issues you have to face and wrestle with..
not these whiney..
I've always been a good girl...
NO ONE held a gun to your head all along..
you are no victim..
You are playing victim because not only do you want to ride off in to the sunset with OM..
you want everyone to be HAPPY about it..

can't have it both ways..
there is no honor in your actions ...
there is deceipt and pain...and you will make true victims out of those in your wake....

Do you not see the unfairness of this ??

Or can only see how it is unfair to you...

I don't care what you do..
I really don't..
but again again again...
I hope your Husband gets full custody..for your childrens sake...

I hope you do the right thing and give him that atleast...

cause trying to replace their already good father with a man who has no respect for vows and commitment is sad and damaging...no matter how you bend it...

welcome to my free spin zone SH.

ARK

S.H.


When I was your age, I went through a period of time when I thought that I was missing all of the fun and joy in life because I was married and the father of two kids. Like you, I married very early (19) and immediately began to raise a family. I think everyone goes through a period of unhappiness because we feel “tied down” by our marriage.

I met a co-worker that I truly believed could satisfy my emotional needs and love me far better than my wife. I wanted to be free of my wife. I struggled with my feels for many months. I was confused and unhappy and saddened. The only thing that stopped me was the fact that my dad had been unfaithful to my mother and I saw up close the pain and suffering that resulted from A’s.

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about deciding if you want to continue with your marriage. You have already tried the wrong way. Devote yourself to your family once again and schedule MC for you and your husband. You might want to consider individual counseling for yourself. Read all of the information that has been suggested. Talk to a couple of women on this board that can give you some insight as former WS’s. I believe Snowbelle has already responded to your e-mail and Cerri has been suggested.

If after all of this you still want a divorce, you can leave your marriage with the knowledge that you tried your best.

I hope that you find happiness and joy and peace…

Beau

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by S.H.:
I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." Instead of, "OK, I may feel differently now, but I made a promise and, regarless of my feelings, I have to stay, since I am worth less than anyone or everyone involved." I hope that they find it the first time they take that step, but I will understand if that is not the way it happens.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">more drama. both of the "lessons" you state are grossly irresponsible. face it, you're justifying your own lack of responsibility and accountability for your actions. for what? one person's happiness -- yours and yours only.

after i read your words in this paragraph, two quotes immediately came to mind:

those who lack courage will always find a philosophy to justify it. ~albert camus

happiness is a singular incentive to mediocrity. ~michel montaigne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H and I made it thru 10 months of his overseas tour w/o any infidelity. The 10th month was his mid-tour. (Meaning he was home for that month.) It was only a few days after he left again that I felt compelled to tell OM about my feelings. I don't understand this, but it was not about sex. (H and I hadn't missed a day when he was back.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">first, most affairs are seldom about sex. they are about emotional needs that are not being met by your spouse. instead of asking our spouses to step up and meet them -- or, better still, asking "how can i meet your needs better, sweetheart" -- we just selfishly expect that they will know what they are doing wrong and then change ... which is what most people consider to be the act of "trying." it's horsesh!t and it's no way to behave in a marriage.

second, infidelity does not need sexual activity to exist. your actions are unfathful when your husband thinks they are. in other words, the emotional attachment you developed to om before you had sex with him is an act of infidelity.

i told my wife there were three things about her affair that hurt me the most. First, she had a secret life apart from our marriage that she intentionally chose to keep me from. i was not invited to her 30th birthday party, for instance. second, once she fell in love with her om, she figured i would roll over and let our marriage end without fighting.

and last, as painful as it is to think she shared her body with another man, it is 100 times worse knowing she shared her heart with another man. other men here have said i'm not alone. chances are good your husband is in the club now, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, OM is not married. In fact, his ex left him for another man. He says that at the very least this experience helps him understand what she must have been feeling and wishes her the best if that was the case.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and this is a recipe for success? oy vey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

the one thing you've mentioned that is not complete fogbabble is the need for you and your husband to find a good counselor.

i mean it when is say that it's good that you're here; and that it's not an accident. it's true that a lot of us betrayeds and former betrayeds will be tough. the thing that most of us learned was that we would never be able to change our spouses, no matter how much we wanted them to stop hurting us, themselves, and their loved ones. the change was theirs to make. you are no different.

i wish you the best, sh. things are not going to get easier for you in the near future -- this is tough stuff we're all dealing with. please continue to come here.

To madly, truly, deeply:

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Never read "The Portrait of Dorien Grey" have you? Yes hedonism is a bad thing because the basic principle of hedonism is that the person puts their wants/desires above all else, regardless of the consequences to others, even themselves. Abusers, pedifilers and rapists are forms of hedonism, albeit the most extreme. The concept is the same though..A leads to B leads to C......

MTD

P.S....Me thinks a seminar poster is in our midst.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

"I want what I want without regard for the impact on other people."

Selfishness.

OM is selfish, too. He was willing to help you break your wedding vows.

Great basis for a marriage. It's interesting... infidelity tends to run in families. Sting wrote about the impact of his mother's infidelity on him and his willingness to leave his wife and two children to remarry, a marriage that has lasted 24 years and is happy.

Well, less than 5% of marriages where the relationship starts as an affair last. Let's see... That's considerably lower odds than for marriages in general. Wonder why?

Maybe it is something about the people who find that an affair is acceptable under certain circumstances...

I really admire that you are willing to look at your behavior. You don't want your children thinking grabbing the next golden ring is acceptable; they'll be more likely to marry people who think grabbing the next golden ring is acceptable.

You have no idea the pain you are causing. There is a saying in the Bible: "The sins of the fathers will be visited on the children." Now I know why. My own children are more likely to have affairs or have partners who have affairs becasue of the actions of my H. It turns out my FIL had an A and so did the mother of OW.

S.H., Please believe me when I say you are deep within the "fog." It's very obvious to all of us here, though some of us may express it more impartially and effectively than others.

It will be obvious to you, someday, too -- at least if you're lucky. (There are some people who just drift from one fog-inducing event in their lives to the next.)

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.


Sufdb....YIKES.


he·don·ism from dictionary.com


1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.

2. Philosophy. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.

3. Psychology. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.


Maybe you misused the word hedonism SH, but if not, if you meant these things, you would be well-served in reconsidering your view, it is a self-destructive one...for yourself, your children, and anyone you come into contact with.


1. Is animal instinct. As another poster pointed out, that means anything goes if it "feels" good, completely turn off our rational brain. Drugs, sexual perversion, pain, greed, lust, guttony, coveting, whew....scares the bejeepers out of me to even contemplate the ramifications of associateing with a hedonist, never know what they will do next if it feels good.

2.Philosophy...gosh SH, even a cursory look at defining "good" by how something feels is crazy. Do I even need to give examples?

3. Psychology, this is a little trickier. We do seek value pleasure, and avoid pain. Those are hardwired primal survival characteristics. But we also have cognitive brains, which give us the ability to assess our actions in other terms than instinct. We have the capacity to do short-term hard and painful things because of longer term benefits. This is a huge advantage, as it enlarges the scope of our existence in many wonderful ways. I don't think I am willing to give that up, how about you? Psychologically and physically at a primal level we are hardwired to make as many children as possible, with as many different partners as possible, we can do this...but no sane person would argue it is a good thing to do so, the long-term cost is far too high for the individual....since we are able to see that, and decide not to do that, hedonism cannot be the way we are supposed to live. On the other hand, we can prove moral behaviour is hardwired into human beings (as opposed to taught or learned).

So clearly we have other factors motivateing behaviour....hedonism is amoral, so one would have to wonder why we would embrace it...the only amoral human beings are psychopaths (and their kissing cousins sociopaths), and I doubt you are a psychopath.

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

SH - Please continue to post here. What you're saying is so similar to the things my WP said that it's beyond eerie. I want to understand better how my WP made the choices she made, and I suspect I'll understand that much better through watching you.

Having said that, here's something I'd like you to think about. You say that your husband has put a tremendous amount into your marriage and family.

You, on the other hand, have learned to value your independence and freedom. You're also learning that society's strictures feel too tight.

Here's the thing, though. There are huge chunks of society that would wave and cheer you on -- to "do what you feel is right" and to "follow your heart." You're hearing that seductive song from your friends and family already.

So... society is not, in fact, really drubbing you in the face for your relationship with OM. Oh, sure, everyone HERE is, but not the rest of society. So why are you here taking the drubbing? Why are you listening to all these voices that are saying these things?

My suspicion is that our voices match some of the things you're hearing in your own head. We almost always search out words that reflect what we are already hearing in our heads. That allows us to clarify and expand our own thoughts.

So. You also said you want your children to be able to live free of society's strictures. I think that what you really mean is that you want the voices of guilt and fear and general yuckiness out of your OWN head.

(You don't know, after all, what's really going on in your kids' heads, nor what they're really going to think as adults.)

I think you want us to fight you on this. And in fighting it, you want to justify all of it to yourself. You want to fight and rebel against us and against your husband, and you want to then be able to say, "See? I won my independence! I won my freedom!"

Well, I'm not going to fight you, though plenty of others here will.

Go ahead. Be a strong, free, independent person. Don't do something just because it's what your husband wants. Accept that you HAVE A CHOICE. YOU CAN SAY NO. And if you don't, then it's YOUR PROBLEM.

Not his.

His problem is an unfaithful wife who refuses to take her vows seriously. His problem is a wife who has not put enough into her marriage, and who is running away from the guilt that she feels because of it. His problems are just as big as yours. But they're very different.

Just J: I, too, was wondering where all those societal strictures that repress us are. Certainly my H didn't seem to feel any when he pranced off with crazy OW.

As often with popular culture, we are taught to fight straw men. The generous 19th-century message about fighting social strictures (cf., Flaubert, Hugo, Tolstoy) have somehow survived into the 21st century, which could use a few strictures on its rampant self-indulgence and self-absorption.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by S.H.:
<strong>

I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those "societal rules" you so hate are really your conscience speaking. You are trying hard to drown out your conscience and hoping that you can do the same to your children.

Your children have a special relationship with their FATHER and need an intact family. You are only teaching them that it is ok to destroy their lives in pursuit of some co**. They will never forget that you did that to them.

Children are scarred for life from divorce and you are willing to sacrifice their well being so you can act like a cat in heat and chase your feeling de jour. Your kids will NEVER be the same because you have no control over your feelings and are not man enough to acknowledge right from wrong.

I say acknowledge, because I know you know the difference by your efforts to drown out your conscience.

Drown it out at your demise, my dear, because it will haunt you and kill you. Mark my words. It will scream and scream until you can't take it anymore. You might have to even drink or do drugs to drown the voice out.

And then the depression will follow. You won't know why you are depressed for a long time. You will look around and everything seems just fine. You will be baffled. So you will start taking anti-depressants. That will help drown it out. But you will be a zombie. Because in addition to drowning out the depression and the voices, you have now chemically drowned out joy and happiness. You are now a walking dead person.

You will never feel the thing you wanted all along because you went about it the wrong way. You don't understand the greatest truth of life:

HAPPINESS IS THE RESULT OF LIVING RIGHT.

It is not acheived by chasing the feeling de' jour, [hedonism] but by abiding by one's conscience and doing the right thing, NO MATTER HOW HARD. It is acheived by caring for others and being decent, honest, compassionate, prudent, disciplined, truthful and GOOD.

It hurts my heart to read moral relativistic thoughts that believe that children are disposable commodities that take second place to fleeting, silly infatuations. It hurts more to read sick, twisted rationalizations of such evil.

But it makes me glad to be alive to know that I am in the same world as courageous good people like ark, whippit, sufbd, LowOrbit, Just J, Annamarie, madlytrulydeeply, brokenheartandarm, Toomuchcoffeeman, Sonof WF, and Snowbelle, who know right from wrong and have the courage to say it. You folks are awesome and I am proud to know you all.

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

S.H. I just need to comment on something you said, about OM's wife left him and now he understands why she needed to what she did...That is absolutely infuriating, I am the BS and I could never imagine putting another W through what I myself have been through, and believe me, there was a married man whom I was very good friends with that showed a true attraction to me, his W is a complete B***h to him most of the time and has admitted to the almighty $$ being very important to her, BUT he has still chosen to stay in that marriage loveless or not, I couldn't imagine being the other woman after the pain I felt myself. I remember saying to my H's OW that I truly hope she never has to go through what i am going through and if she has then that makes her even worse of a person than I thought...You may not be able to control immediate feelings for someone but you can control the actions you take, you chose to not try with your H, chalking it up to the passion being gone...Give your marriage a chance and at least see if it just went to "sleep" for a period of time, something you are both responsible, then if there is nothing there, make a decision. But for your kids you need to at least try..

Sorry but your comment touched a button...I hope you make the right decision not just based on hormonol feelings..

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Melody, Thanks for the praise, but I really don't deserve any awards for virtue. I've made some big-time mistakes in this area in the past, real whoppers. It's in the nature of the times.

We live in a time when we are trained to value nothing except the "self," the "real me." So eerything, in the end, comes down to "loving yourself." "You can't love anyone till you love yourself," it's commonly said nowadays, which gives rise to an endless self-absorption. Whatever happened to the ancient idea that you can't find love except by giving of yourself? Nowadays, I tend to go much more with Oscar Wilde:

To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance.

Youth comes and goes, but immaturity can stay with you forever.

If I sound different now, it's because I've learned by hard experience, and a lot of stupid relationships in the past.