Trying to save marriage always right? - Marriage Builders® Forums

We have been married for 14 yrs and have 2 kids, 9 & 10. It looked as if all our plans were finally coming around--healthy, happy, smart children, promising careers, financial stability. I basically had/have everything. However, we did not make it thru my husband's overseas remote in one piece. I am the WS. I finally feel confident and independent after having to take care of the kids, house, career, bills etc. while he was away. I also fell in love with a co-worker.

H and I still love each other, but there is a lack of passion. I feel fiercely passionate about the OM and that I may be missing my chance if I try to stay in a marriage that is merely not bad. I have never felt this strongly about anyone. I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H. I feel that trying to keep the marriage is not always the thing to do. I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover and find happiness and hope he does.

I believe my kids will do well thru it b/c there is a lot of love. H & I are dealing with this calmly and rationally, but slowly. If my kids found this kind of passion, even if they were married to someone else, I would want them to pursue it and live it. But I also know if they were on the other end it would really eat me up.

I am interested in hearing opinions from all sides on this one...

You may want to read nursedg4 thread titled
please give me your opinions.. She was the WW that had an affair with her OM, now her fiance, two years before she left her H and kids. It's now been three years that she and him have been living together, and now she discovers that he is having an affair with an OW and wants to go live with her. This is a very sobering story about the old saying 'what goes around comes around'. And before you say 'that can never happen to us' please ponder the following question What kind of man is it that has an affair with a married woman with kids? Not one that respects the institution of marriage. So consider yourself warned.

The passion you feel now you once felt for your husband a long time ago. Perhaps it wasn't the same as the passion you feel now but that was a long time ago and you were a different person. That passon can be regained but not while you are with the OM. You might want to consider the consequences of your A. At this stage in the A you have no understanding of the pain and suffering that you will bring down on your H, your children and yourself. Plus the fact that 85% of A's never result in marriage because as soon as the relationship becomes "normal" guess what?The old problems begin to reoccur just with a different guy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
 We have been married for 14 yrs and have 2 kids, 9 & 10. It looked as if all our plans were finally coming around--healthy, happy, smart children, promising careers, financial stability. I basically had/have everything. However, we did not make it thru my husband's overseas remote in one piece. I am the WS. I finally feel confident and independent after having to take care of the kids, house, career, bills etc. while he was away. I also fell in love with a co-worker.

H and I still love each other, but there is a lack of passion. I feel fiercely passionate about the OM and that I may be missing my chance if I try to stay in a marriage that is merely not bad. I have never felt this strongly about anyone. I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H. I feel that trying to keep the marriage is not always the thing to do. I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover and find happiness and hope he does.

I believe my kids will do well thru it b/c there is a lot of love. H & I are dealing with this calmly and rationally, but slowly. If my kids found this kind of passion, even if they were married to someone else, I would want them to pursue it and live it. But I also know if they were on the other end it would really eat me up.

I am interested in hearing opinions from all sides on this one... <hr /></blockquote>Dear S.H.

Thanks for having the courage to post this. You show that down deep you are a person wanting integrity. Even though right now you're not living in integrity.

Please see this post and read what I've written. Carefully consider the direction you're headed. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=025538

You have no reliable way of predicting the ultimate pain and suffering you will cause by quickly dismissing your marriage covenant made before God and man.

The fact that you are troubled NOW, should speak VOLUMES TO YOU!!! LOUDLY!!!!

Please don't dismiss this nagging voice inside. It comes from a very highly placed source....

Also, inform yourself by reading here. You are living in "The Infamous Fog"!! All who are in an Affair, do so. It is devastatingly devious. It is always wrong!

I pledge my prayers for you and especially for your wounded spouse and innocent children as well as those who will pay for this on the OM's family side.

S.H.

One of the classic mistakes you are making is the belief that this is something good for your children all in the name of your happiness...

You are choosing a path that in which the father of his own children is made in to a visitor to his own children...all in the name of your happiness...

Is that ever a good thing?

And even more scarey in the name of your happiness and passion this OM will attempt to replace their own father....and darn it..they should like that and be happy about it...

You are so caught up in the emotion and "passion" of all of this that you can only rationalize it into being OK..it's not...

I feel that trying to keep the marriage is not always the thing to do.
No one here does either...
abuse, addiction, neglect all kinds of bad situations exist out there that clearly point to people should not stay married...
this site exist not because dr. harley fiercely believes that people should stay married no matter what...BUT because in his course of counseling over and over couples came to him...and said they wanted to try to make it work...

Even when people get divorced with out an affair...with children involved...there needs be a long time of mourning and adjustment...
When divorcing people really care about the well being of their children above their own they xet clear boundaries that support the real TRAUMA their children experience...
and divorce on children is traumatic...arguabley even more traumatic when there is no gross chaos in the home...and the root is a parent discarding a spouse for a passoniate stud in their bed..

If you divorce I suggest you no matter what have no contact with the OM for one year and (he) none with your children......that you focus soley on your childrens needs for that year...and through the natural mourning process they will go through..before bringing studly in..
If it is meant to be...both of you will still be there after a year..
it's a small sacrifice in relationship to your childrens well being and adjustment to an unjust divorce...

Believe that you can drop dad and introduce the OM as if he is the greatest thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...
and you will be throwing them and their emotions and developement to the wolves...expecially in their ages..
they love their dad..
they deserve their dad in their home...

are you considering that dad gets full custody..and you visit on weekends...because that would be more acceptable to them than being forced to live with a new strange man as their dad...that's some thing you should consider..why is their father made the visitor and replacable when it is you that wants him replaced...

Love is not enough..

Do you really see the big picture of what you are trying to rationalize...

life is not just about our own needs...kids deserve their dad with them as their dad...over your need for passion which exists not outside of yourself..but because you are putting all your energy and focus their creating it with your OM and withdrawing it...like you have for a long time with your husband...

life is not about love...love is not just a feeling love is action and if your action of love with a person outside of your marriage results in trauma and chaos to innocent children...then is serves no good...

justify,
rationalize,
blow off the reality of your actions and choices..

you are headed down a path of destructive pain...
caused by you...
orchestrated by you...
all in the name of selfishness...

you know the truth is that it is less important who we lie next to each night than it is who the person is we face in the mirror each day...

Your poor kids are just gonna be tossed around ...
aren't they...I mean really that's where this is headed...

I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover and find happiness and hope he does.

toss hubby out there ....with the thought the sooner he finds himself someone else the sooner that will make you feel less guilty..

and two years down the line..these kids now have
a new step dad...new step mom...
visiting here and there...
splitting this holiday and that one..
half time spent here
half spent there...
this is what you are offerring them..
sounds peachy huh??

sad sad sad sad..
BUT if mom is happy ...that's what is important...

I know you believe you and your OM are different..
that somehow the passion will be just spill out from the two of you and your happiness will infect all others in to magically being happy as well...

it never works that way..no matter how much we believe it...

these are not judgement..
these are realities of your path...

I hope you change the path you are heading..
for the sake of your husband and children..
i pray you do..

ARK

Remember that what he does WITH you he can do TO you. Why? for the same reasons you have stated. Afterall, if you divorce your H and marry him, he meets an OW whom he beleives is his true 'soulmate', doesn't he deserve to be happy even if it means your emotional devastation? Until YOU become the recipient of your own 'reasoning', you will never know how selfish and thoughtless it is.

What you are doing is just plain wrong. You are only thinking about yourself and what you want. This is YOUR life and YOU want to feel happiness and passion. I completely understand your feeling. But, having an A is not going to bring you what you seek.

Think about your kids for a moment. Their Mother is having sex with another Man not their Father!!! And you think they will not be affected because there is a lot of love?? They are at and age that they can understand what you are doing and I can tell you from personal experience that deep down they feel that what you are doing is disgusting. They are ashamed of you and your behavior. Their feelings about love and trust have been destroyed. And the consequences of your actions will follow and hound then the rest of their lives. Oh, outwardly they put on the smiley face to make you happy. But, inside they are feeling so much pain and anger over what has been brought into their lives by you that if you truly understood what they feel you would never ever have any contact with the OM and would do anything in your power to restore your marriage. Your kids deserve a better Mother and a better life that the one you have created.

Check out the post “Children of infidelity.”

Beau

I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H

What a classic display of "the fog". No not the movie with Jamie Lee Curtis. S.H., what is the fog you say? Well, many of the veterans here will give this and that about it being rationilization and not seeing clearly. I have a different term for it. It's called hedonism. Every read Dorian Gray??? NOT a happy ending.

MTD

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
I am interested in hearing opinions from all sides on this one... <hr /></blockquote>you'll be hard pressed to find people to offer you affirmation, here. even from those who have had affairs.

to wit, here's a post from a wayward (former?) that might be worth a moment of your time: Why we have affairs.

you imply the following in your post:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />with my husband i have a mortgage, kids, looming college expenses, and any number of real stresses that are a part of family life.

with my om i have great conversation, passionate sex, lunch dates, and few real worries. plus, he "totally gets me."<hr /></blockquote>how does your husband compete with that? right now he can't. after 14 years he should have the chance to do so, yes?

as for how your children will handle it all ... you're quite confident. i am a child of divorce and so is my wife. i was five when my parents ended their marriage. my wife was 18 when her parents split.

both sets of parents loved their children immensely and dealt with each other calmly and rationally.

even after doing their best, my wife and i are deeply affected by our parents' divorces in numerous ways that they never could have predicted. i imagine your children will be affected similarly.

it's good that you're here. my hope is that you will choose to learn from the awesome people here, both betrayeds and former waywards alike.

your marriage still may not survive, but you can be sure you've followed a path toward healing before reaching that result.

(added link in the edit)

[ November 04, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]

S.H.

Has anything that has been said make you question your actions?

I clearly do not agree with what you are doing but I don't want you to stop asking questions and learning about A's. Please, do not be afraid to post comments or questions. We are very interested in helping you understand what is happening to you and why you feel the way you do. Don't run away from this because it is to important to you and your family.

Do yourself and your whole family a favor and educate yourself on the reality of affairs--start with Surviving an Affair by Harley and also Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Please, I implore you to read about this and break through the fantasy and rationalizations you are giving yourself.

I will pray for you and your family.

S.H.:

"However, we did not make it thru my husband's overseas remote in one piece."

WE??? Or YOU did not make it. Sounds like your H did make it. Be honest with yourself.

"I am the WS. I finally feel confident and independent after having to take care of the kids, house, career, bills etc. while he was away. I also fell in love with a co-worker."

Good for you for feeling confident and independent! But, how is falling in love with a coworker expressing this new-found independence? How is becoming dependent on a SECOND man expressing your independence?

"H and I still love each other, but there is a lack of passion. I feel fiercely passionate about the OM and that I may be missing my chance if I try to stay in a marriage that is merely not bad."

You won't be the first fool 2 believe that passion will last forever. Did you not ever feel passion for your H?

"I have never felt this strongly about anyone."

Passion is fleeting. You won't feel this strongly about the OM someday.

"I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H."

And this made you feel better about having an A rather than getting a DV FIRST? What about the hurt it's causing your children. They aren't idiots. They will know something is wrong. What about the hurt you're causing yourself? Did you find personal integrity when you found your independence? How do you feel about destroying that?

"I feel that trying to keep the marriage is not always the thing to do."

No it's not. But DVing because of an A is usually not the right thing 2 do. As 2MCM has said, you will even2ally have 2 face the fact that you and your partner have become liars and a cheaters 2 be 2gether, and your relationship is based on deceit. Again, the passion you feel now will fade in time.

"I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover and find happiness and hope he does."

He'll have 2, won't he? What about you? And if your OM is married, what about his wife and family?

"I believe my kids will do well thru it b/c there is a lot of love."

And now, with your plans, a lot of cruelty as well.

"H & I are dealing with this calmly and rationally, but slowly."

Wise. Have you sought professional counseling? You should.

"If my kids found this kind of passion, even if they were married to someone else, I would want them to pursue it and live it. But I also know if they were on the other end it would really eat me up."

You can't have it both ways.

"I am interested in hearing opinions from all sides on this one... "

I am interested in finding out whether you are a real person and this is a real si2ation. Do you honestly want "help?" Or validation?

If it's help you're after, there's plenty of it here.

best,
-2long

Bump

I appreciate the responses. I have a lot to reply but need some time to word it appropriately. H and I are currently apart for a week or so. It's actually kind of nice, just me and the kids again. I don't feel like I have to tip-toe around all the time. I will respond to the previous messages--they are truly helpful!

bump

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:

I appreciate the responses. I have a lot to reply but need some time to word it appropriately. H and I are currently apart for a week or so. It's actually kind of nice, just me and the kids again. I don't feel like I have to tip-toe around all the time. I will respond to the previous messages--they are truly helpful!<hr /></blockquote>That week apart is NOT going to help you look at the situation objectively if you are going to use it to expand your time with the OM. Use that time ALONE to educate yourself as much as you can on affairs by reading books like Dr Willard Harley's 'Surviving An Affair', 'His Needs Her Needs', and 'Love Busters' as well as Dave Carder's 'Torn Asunder'.

You may think we are all a bunch of bitter and biased BS(betrayed spouses) and while that may be the case for some, the vast majority of us are not. We have become very knowledgeable about affairs and hope that you too will before making a decision that is going to have far reaching consequences not only for you but for your family as well.

[ November 05, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

S.H.

We understand the anguish caused by and affair and the terrible pressure and guilt that people feel. But, it is no longer just about you and what you want. You have children and a husband to consider. The children need, want and deserve their parents to be together. A little time away from your husband is Ok, but not long. Stop all contact with the OM.

There are many examples on this board of people that feel exactly as you do. They begin their story by saying that they have found the love of their life. If you follow their story you will find that virtually 100% of them come out of the “fog” and suddenly begin to think clearly and are horrified over their behavior and the pain that they have brought down on their family.

Trust in the vast knowledge of the people on this board to help direct your actions in the coming days, weeks and months. It is going to be hard and painful. But, you will come through this and will be much happier than you were during the affair and your marriage with stronger and you and your husband will be closer and more in love than you ever thought possible.

Beau

WAKE UP....

Passion, = Before marriage. You had it with your husband before you signed a marriage contract and say I do didn't you? The problem I see is your looking at a new body something that creates lust not love. Love is built over time and passion takes effort to keep alive. when's the last time you "two" your husband and you got wild a crazy? whens the last time you looked at all you're family photos of the happy years past? Whens the last time you just set at the beds edge and watch the man you use to have passion for sleep and was greatful to have him? whens the last time either of you went on a date? When is the last time you put everything aside except your husband? Yes false passion is every where you look these days but love well your lucky if you find it once in a life time. If you'd put the time in you're marriage it looks like you're willing to put in to an affair, I'd bet you'd find the passion you say you don't have any more. If the affair is what you want well no one can stop you but beware that you will get what you seek a person like the person you'll have to offer you're new lust a cheater some one that can't put the guilt behind them when in 1,2,3,4,5 years time you're out looking for passion again and no longer fine it in your new husband that you met by cheating and talking the same talk you're talking now. Put the entergy in the marriage. You only ever get back what you give. And do you really think you'd be okay with your childs husband or wife doing this to them and sending them down the long and painful road to recovering. I think not, I never want my son to feel the pain I live with daily nor would I want him to hurt is partner. Trust me every thing you're missing, I beat he's "your husband is missing too. But it takes both partners talking, holding, loving, playing, work at it daily and finding time to be together to keep a fire glowing in a marriage. Please I'm not trying to be mean or nasty. I'm only trying to point out facts. Get wild and crazy with your husband force the passion back you'll both be glad you did.

bumo

If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.

It must take a lot of courage on your part to post here, where you may well suspect that there are a lot of BSs reeling from the pain caused by their spouses. It shows you are open to what people might say.

Harley had a guy call into his radio show about a month ago with a story that was unusual even for his show. The man had had an affair with a woman while he was married, and they had four children together. He divorced this woman 17 years ago and married his affair partner 10 years ago. He felt like God wanted this union because they shared a common mission that I can't remember, but it had something to do with helping people within the church. Things seemed to go very well for 10 years until his W started an A with another woman.

Harley recommended that the man consider going back to his original W. He said, more or less, that if you behave with your spouse in a lovng manner, the love will come. The love of an A is a fantasy.

I just thought the story was fascinating because the man must have been devastated by the A in a way that few people can be. After all, he left his wife and four children because of the incredible love he felt for this woman, they seemed to have a wonderful marriage for 10 years, and then this...

I do believe that most people meet people who seem to be a better match than their spouse. Trust me, I have! In fact, there is a guy who is the wife of a friend of mine, and I am totally taken by him. He is witty, smart, and very good-looking. What do I do about that? I stay as far away from him as I can!!!!

I think there are people who know their weaknesses well enough to stay away from people they are attracted to, people who decide that they can break their marriage vows if someone comes along who seems to be a better match for their spouse, and people who wander into an affair because they didn't realize they were vulnerable.

If you are in an A because you think that this man is a better match than your spouse, then what is to prevent you from breaking your commitment to him when someone else comes along? Worse yet, if OM is in the A because you are a better match than his spouse, then what is to prevent him from breaking his commitment to you when someone else comes along?

Despite the incredible pain that my H has given me, I am committed to this man for life. I will not remarry. I will certainly not help someone else break their marriage vows. Even if your OM isn't married, he didn't respect that you were. Think about it....

I must say that I admire your willingness to look at what you are doing. From what my H tells me, he didn't want to look at what he was doing.

additional information requested

dude ... i think we scared her away.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by whippit:
 dude ... i think we scared her away. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think so because she posted again yesterday and her post showed no evidence that she felt attacked in any way, shape or form. She maybe digesting the advice we gave her to make a final decision.

i was joking. she seems like a smart person who is here because of as yet unstated purpose. i am confident she will be back, too.

further information requested

This week alone has hardly been a time to think. No, I am not spending time with OM aside from work. However my father is here for a visit--planned before H and I decided to be apart for a while. (He was going to visit to give us some time to go out and enjoy ourselves.)

I have come to realize that I have gotten used to being alone and am enjoying it. When H first left for overseas I went thru a period of about 2 months where I would have panic attacks. But now I like this feeling of independence.

So what is one supposed to do when in this so-called fog? (No, I haven't gotten any of the books mentioned previously. Yes, I plan to. No matter how stubborn I am I still like to get different points of view.) We had been trying to do it together. Seeing if time would help bring us to some new level of our relationship. Also to let my feelings for OM wither away from neglect. I must be honest--I was still obsessed with thinking about him, although he was still under the impression that things were getting back underway btwn H and me. Of course H knew that I wasn't "here" all the time, and when we would talk I was totally honest with him and let him know that I still had strong feelings. That is why we decided that maybe being apart for a while would help.

I am still unsure about how I would like to see this end up. The "happy family" thing seems appealing occasionally. I missed H so bad last night that I called him and asked if he would want to come back earlier than planned. However, today I am back to the same-old indecisive me. More often I find myself yearning for just being alone. Alone meaning without any man. Of course the kids miss him and many people think that I am being selfish (especially where the kids are concerned) by wanting out. How unselfish would it be to remain in the relationship when my heart is not in it? Does that tell my kids that if a person is unhappy in a marriage that they must live out a life-long sentence b/c their feelings and happiness are then secondary to others'? Is it impossible for anyone involved to be happy ever again when a marriage ends?

I was 17 when I met my H and 19 when we married. I went from home to him. I have always been taken care of. I have never been alone. Someone always paid the bills for me and took care of responsibilities like insurance, car payments, leases, etc. I feel a kind of euphoria now that I know I am capable of taking care of myself and my children. I long to be on my own, but I am still scared. If I stay is it b/c I am being selfless or cowardly? If I leave is it b/c I am being selfish or brave?

I talked to H today. He says he can't wait much longer for a decision to be made. I want more time alone. I don't think my H wants me to be with him half-heartedly, and I don't know how to force my feelings otherwise.

I've read every response. (I am confused what messages that read "bump" are supposed to mean.) Perhaps I will respond to individual inputs eventually.

Thank you all for your opinions and personal accounts.

Contrare to what you are saying, I am of the belief that the braver thing to do is to try and save the M. Leaving is the easy part, believe me. You may have already mentioned this but I'll ask anyway. Have you considered what this is doing to your H and kids? Do they deserve what you are doing to them? Despite what people think the simple facts are (statistically backed) that kids of divorced parents are more often than not NOT ok after the D. There are usually lingering emotional and psychological effects that may not manifest themselves untill well into adulthood. I'm not saying couples should stay together because of the kids. But kids are probably the best reason to try and save the M. The children are the most inoccent victims in these scenarios and the parents (both the BS and the WS) owe them nothing less.

MTD

S.H.

I have been "bumping" the thread to the top of the page to make it easier for you to locate the information.

Beau

S.H. let's call a spade a spade and let's accept the fact that if the OM had never appeared on the scene there would most likely not be this glorification talk about being independent and on your own. No, the real reason for this romanticizing of 'independence' is really all about ending the marriage in order to start a relationship with the OM. There is a statistic that says that only 3% of marriages that started out as affairs during previous marriages, become succesful, so if you had any plans of getting married to the OM then your chances of a marriage with him are already stacked against you. Again I ask you to please read nursedg4 thread titled
please give me your opinions. to get a realistic view as to what the future holds for you if you take the route you have been contemplating and which she did to her regret.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've read every response. (I am confused what messages that read "bump" are supposed to mean.)<hr /></blockquote>When a member posts a message that reads "bump" what he or she is trying to do is bring the thread, in this case yours, to the top of the first page to get more exposure and more feedback from other members that might have missed it the first time it appeared on the first page.

Here's some more background...

My H told me that quite frequently I have threatened to leave him as soon as I was financially able. I only remember one time when our kids were 1 and newborn. (Those can be very difficult times.) We had a fight and I was so mad that I really wanted to leave, but I realized that I had no skills or education so life would be very hard.

Now I have earned a degree in a promising field. H worked and took care of our kids, all the finances and all the household chores. I put in the time studying and commuting to the university, managing to cover tuition, day-care and travel expenses with scholarships. We eliminated a huge amount of debt while he was overseas. It is obvious that financial stability is very important to me. So now I feel that I have financial independence.

The only time I would go out without H was to "girl" parties--baby showers, Tupperware, and the like--and to bingo. While he was away "our" friends never bothered to call to see if I wanted to do anything. I realized whose friends "our" friends really were. H is very likable and people love to hang out with him. I feel like I am mostly along for the ride and try to be entertaining. I finally started to go out with friends to shop, chat at the neighborhood bar, play pool, or just go to the movies solo. H never seemed to have a problem doing things without me. Golf would keep him out for half the day. There were times when he would come home in the early hours of morning after going out for "just a couple" of drinks after work with the guys. So now I have my own friends and feel that I have achieved social independence.

This is cold, but although I do love my H, maybe a big part of that is b/c I knew he could/would take care of me. Maybe he is my security blanket. Maybe OM is a security blanket too, but that is why I would want to stay by myself for at least a year before making any major decisions.

SonofWF said previously, "The passion you feel now you once felt for your husband a long time ago." But he must have not read that I had originally posted, "I have never felt this strongly about anyone." That is absolutely true. Yes, I still remember all that I have felt for H over the years. He is still my friend, and he knows me better than anyone else (and still loves me--wow!). But I have never felt the way I feel for OM about H. Less than one month after we were married I remember feeling panicked and talking to H b/c I didn't feel that I truly loved him. I also remember feeling panicked and talking to OM b/c I had to tell him how I felt about him(OM).

Well, I was raised to do the "right" thing. Once married, stay married. Go to school and get a degree. (The way I was raised is that, as a female, you either have to be going to college, working after earning a degree, or raising children to be of any worth to society. If you are a male just toss out the raising children part.) ***long side-note...After a few years of school I was miserable about the major I had chosen. I was too far in to change b/c my scholarships were specifically for my field. I spent many nights crying in the early morning hours hating what I had got myself into, but I finished anyway. I am capable of, and plagued by, doing the "right" thing.*** Go to church. Volunteer. These are all things that I hate/hated to do precisely b/c that is what is/was expected of me. I feel like I have had little control over my life and decisions that have been made.

I am so tired of living my life based on "this is what I am supposed to do" and "this is what I should do"!!! I want to do what I feel like doing!

Yeah, the statistics are not on my side. Maybe things won't work out if I end up with OM. I feel I could live with that. I feel that I regret it forever if I didn't try. My H and some friends of ours have all told me to go with my heart and what I feel. They tell me that is the only way I will be able to make the right choice. I want to, but I feel so bad about hurting my H more than what I have. I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship.

By the way, are there any statistics on how many married couples are just lingering on in their marriage and not truly satisfied? Doing it out of obligation or other reasons? Are there any statistics on how many married couples still feel truly in love with each other?

S.H.,

There are good reasons to end a marriage, but from what you are describing I'd say your situation is not one of them.

From the outside looking in, I'd say you have a wonderful husband who loves you and your child. You say you've never really loved him like you do OM, but I can only tell you there are so many who have said that before and later recanted.

You need to really address the problems in your marriage that are causing this disconnect between you and your husband. The first thing is to rid your marriage of the OM. You can't possibly realistically look at your marriage with OM waving to you from the sidelines. Whatever effort you make will be stilted, half-hearted, and doomed to fail.

I think some individual counseling for you would be a good thing. You need help getting through this. Don't assume that the thoughts that you are coming up with right now are the right answers to your perceived problems. How many times I have seen people's positions change from black to white on this board, I can't tell you! From being so sure they were deeply in love with OP to realizing it was their spouse they loved all along!

Unless you are the one in a million, and I doubt you are, you need to consider what everyone here is telling you: your marriage may not be the desert you think it is right now. OM might not be the gift you think he is right now.

You want to end your marriage? Go ahead. But if you don't do everything possible to save it, odds are you will come to regret it.

Ask yourself this question: If tomorrow you were to become totally disabled, who would be more likely to be there for you, your OM or your H?. What then of your much vaunted independence?

sh...I am so tired of living my life based on "this is what I am supposed to do" and "this is what I should do"!!! I want to do what I feel like doing!

sufdb...Then do so, no one is stopping you. But then you are allready doing so. You haven't "left" cause you don't want to hurt your H, that is a feeling, and you are acting on it....staying. SH you may not realize this, but you have always done exactly what you want to do, we all do, it is how human beings function. Your issue is a conflict between how you want to feel, and how you do feel. To address those internal paradigms you have to go through a process of re-evaluation of your life, you have to get authentic (the new buzzword for self-actualization). I would suggest Dr. Phil Mcgraws books (I forget name, self matters maybe...but they are popular, and in the bookstore). He does an outstanding job of exaplaining how we make decisions, why we do what we do, and what to do about it when we don't like how we make choices. You should probably do this before you make any more "decisions". Take a sabbatical for a bit, even seperate if that is necessary to avoid distraction, and find out who you are, and what you want out of life, including religious aspects if such are important to you.

sh...Yeah, the statistics are not on my side.

sufdb...Statistics are important to insurance companies and governments, one should not consider such things in relationship choices, other criteria are more important. If we went on statistics no one would get married cause the majority end in divorce, or are unhappy.

sh...Maybe things won't work out if I end up with OM. I feel I could live with that. I feel that I regret it forever if I didn't try.

sufdb...Here is the crux of the problem IMO. Accepting that one can't have gaurantees is appropriate, such is the nature of relationships. But you cannot "try" in the sense this has anything to do with current marriage. You cannot (in a healthy sense) trade someone in for someone else, is impossible, doesn't work. Your marriage has to recover or fail on it's own merits, that means you have to end the other relationship with no expectations, a clean break. And then make a pact with yourself, you will only pursue one relationship at a time, that is the only way IMO to be authentic. And further that you will not pursue any other relationship unless both parties are legitimately available to do so....

If you are uncertain about your marriage, then continue to focus on it until you are sure one way or another, that is the path through the craziness. All affairs must end, no successful relationship can be build upon a decietful foundation, or a running from one to another foundation, like comparing horses or something. By ending the affair, properly resolving your marriage, and if it ends, then if there is anything really possible with this om, you will be able to assess it with a clear head, and conscience. The downfall is just what you said, you will regret not trying, this is a false fear, the trying is not about the om, the trying is about you choosing to live in a healthy manner. If the om is actually worthy he will agree the affair must end, regret the circumstances, and let you go (no contact) to sort out your life. If he won't do that (or you either), neither of you are good marriage material...which is why the statistics say affair based relationships fail, they are selfish. Marital/relationship success is not based on selfish fear.

sh...My H and some friends of ours have all told me to go with my heart and what I feel. They tell me that is the only way I will be able to make the right choice.

sufdb....They are correct to a point, but they can't tell you to go or stay, and your feelings have to be tempered by rational oversight, as I have suggested here. If your H is being honest, it is to his credit he wants you to do what is best for you (while hoping perhaps you choose the marriage), that doesn't mean you necessarily fit well enough to want more than a kinship (but not intimate) relationship with him, but he does want radical honesty from you, and not a settleing.

sh....I want to, but I feel so bad about hurting my H more than what I have. I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship.

sufdb...These are considerations in how one proceeds, but cannot be reasons to remain in intimacy. Intimacy has to be a completely selfish choice. No one wants to be loved or chosen as a duty, or obligation, or to avoid hurt feelings....doesn't work. But these are good reasons to go the extra mile to be sure you are psycholgically healthy, authentic, and fully understand what you are doing. To that end, the individual efforts (counselling, and introspection such as I said re Dr. Mcgraw) need to be accomplished, as well as a fair shake to ones spouse and marital counselling.

sh....By the way, are there any statistics on how many married couples are just lingering on in their marriage and not truly satisfied? Doing it out of obligation or other reasons?

sufdb....Yes, there are, and the numbers are depressing. You should be able to search them out.

sh...Are there any statistics on how many married couples still feel truly in love with each other?

sufdb....There are lots of marital studies, and one can do there own surveys of family friends etc. Many are obviously not happy, and if one looks hard, even many of the "supposedly" happy ones disply some disconcerting behaviours. It use to surprise me here (not anymore, having heard it so often) how often someone posts people thought they had the "perfect" marriage, but little did they now their charming, likable spouse was neglectful, distant, abusive, etc. I really don't know what to make of it. Sometimes I think a good marriage is just impossible, but then you do see a certain number of successfull marriages, where the enviroment is a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place. But such does not just happen IMO, it takes a real effort at understanding yourself, a prospective mate, and healthy human behaviour....then a radically honest assessment of how an intimate relationship would work. If all this is done successfully, a good outcome is likely. The problem is people often put more effort into buying a car than they do in honest assessent of a relationship.

Many marriages aren't happy. Many PEOPLE aren't happy. I don't know why we expect marriages to be "happy" and "successful" when few of the individuals within them are. Are middle-aged single people who have eschewed marriage "happy"? Happier than married people? Not the ones I know.

The problem is, SH, that OM is not the secret recipe to "happiness," though he might look like it at this point. Your feelings for him, even in a marriage, would subside into the normal ups-and-downs of wedded life.

And from what I can tell, EVERYONE threatens their partner with breakup during a bad fight, or fantasizes divorce or life with someone else or at least has regrets about marriage when they are unhappy. This is human nature. You won't find the perfect person for whom this won't be true.

The problem is, in an A, we string together all those low-points to make them part of a new picture, to prove that we were NEVER happy, that it was NEVER going to work.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship."<hr /></blockquote>Yeah it's great that you now have a good relationship with him, but look at how his absence negatively affected your personal life as an adult. Do you want to do the same and have your children find themselves in the same situation you find yourself right now?

Guys,
I'm bailing on this post...
I can't take it...and I can't be kind and sugar coaty....

It makes me ill...

And I have no personal bitterness since I haven't (thank God) experienced betrayal on either side...)

sorry people...

marriage is what we create of it..it does not just happen..
and no matter how thick your denial..what exists with your other man is of your creation...it does not exist without you tending to it..withdraw all your energy and nicey nicey words and primping and planning...and it will whither and die....

you act happy and creative and interesting and coy and sexy and all those other things with your OP...and you know it...and withhold those same actions and energies from your spouse...not because your marriage is old..but because you let it get old...

love is NOT a feeling it is an action..
and when we act lovingly...it all falls in to place...and when we spend that action other than within our marriage we reap evil and havoc...

going back and drumming up victim status too choices made is old and done to death....and is a lie...that eases your choices that hurt others deeply and profoundly....

What you risk to teach your children about withdrawing love just because you feel like it is wrong...and will profoundly affect their choices in life...

Is it not ironic that you yourself a product of divorce is the one so willing to walk away...
it's easy to you because that it what you were taught as a child....

This statement makes me want to hold down my head and weep...

I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship

It is the same as saying...yeah I was beat as a child..and I came out OK...so I will beat my own children...

I pray you that if you choose this path...that you give sole custody to their father...and YOU visit on weekends when you're not to busy with your little stud-muffin...

I'll even delete it in a bit...but right now I'm gonna go play with my two and four year old...and color a picture for their dad...

ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

S.H.

I'm a FWS who's been through all of the same issues you've described.

One of the greatest epiphanies I had about myself during recovery was that I had tendency to extrapolate my current feeling into the future. I.E. If I didn't feel good at the moment about my marriage, then I would never feel good about my marriage. If I felt great about my OW at the moment, then my future relationship would be great forever as well. This was poppycock, but a bad mental habit I'd fallen into. I sense a lot of this in your posts.

STOP IT NOW!

Just because you marriage is not what you'd like it to be today doesn't mean it won't be different tomorrow. You'll never know if don't try.

Low

S.H.

I tried to tell you that what you are feeling is not real - that it is a fantasy. And that the passion you describe “can” be felt just as strongly for your husband. (CHECK MY 1ST POST). The reason your feelings are not real is they are based on lying and deceit. You and OM lied and deceived your spouse’s. You poor husband was called up to serve his country and his wife couldn’t wait to start and affair and had sex with another guy.

The affair is not like a normal relationship where you openly get to know the other person and get to spend time together. Where the two of you go out in public and go to church and hold hands and talk about what’s going on in your lives and your dreams and aspirations for the future. Where you gradually get to know each other and fall in love – real love.

Instead with an affair you have to lie to spend time together. You have to deceive the people that should be the most important people in your life (husband and children). You have to find someone to keep your kids while you rush to some motel to have sex with the OM. You have to hide the relationship for everyone you know. Don’t you see how unnatural and unreal this type of relationship is?

Further more you have no regrets! You think it is just fine what you have done. And you say you have always done the “right” things all of your life? You need to reexamine your heart and your morals more carefully because what you SAY about yourself and what you are DOING are completely opposite.

Your husband has taken good care of you and the children and made it possible for you to obtain and education and get a good job and you repaid him by lying and cheating on him. And you call yourself a good person? Maybe he is the one that needs to decide if he wants to keep you!

Furthermore, since you’re an adulterer there is no guarantee that you will get to keep your children. You might well find yourself in six months with no husband, no children, no home and no OM because he has left you to go back to his family.

The only person you really care about is yourself. What you feel, what you want, what your needs are. As long as you feel this way there is nothing we can say or do to help you.

Beau

Ark, please don't delete your post. There was nothing bitter or cynical about it. Just the plain and simple truth.

Let's look at reality here. S.H., I know as well as you do that you are going to do what you want, no matter what me, your H, or anyone here says. We all know you are going to ignore every piece of advice that has been given you, because "you know better, you know that you are different". You are like that little 2 year old whose mother and father tell him/her repeatedly not to put their hand on the top of the stove. You're going to do, if for no other reason to see what all the fuss is about. And while you may not burn your hand the first time, sooner or later you will get burned. It's just a matter of when and how badly. The worst part is, you know of the pain you are inflicting on your H and children, but believe they will be ok because you are happy. After all, if you're happy, they must be happy, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I hope you will keep posting here, I hope you will eventually learn something. Perhaps you might take the time to seek out some of the FWS's (former wayward spouses) and get their perspective. Could be a real eye-opener for you....

MTD

edited to add:
P.S. You said something about the statistics about people staying in unhappy, unfulfilling marriages. You probably won't find any. People in marriages like that usually end up D'ed, and no more happier than when they were married (usually ever less happy), or they find out what is wrong with their M and FIX IT!!!

[ November 07, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]

^^^^

I truly do appreciate hearing your opinions. Many of you have been the voice that I am so successfully blocking out. And sufdb seems to understand much of how I feel.

H talked to me today and said he really needs me in his life. I agreed. I think it's mostly b/c that is what he wants and I do owe him much and, yes, though many won't believe it, I do still love him. I do still really wish that I had more time alone--without any man--to learn more about the person I am. I learned so much about myself during H's absence. But I will most likely do whatever he wants.

I don't understand that I need to try to create the things that I am feeling with OM in my marriage when they already exist elsewhere. In the hopes that one day--if ever--I will have forced my H to develop the same interests that OM and I already share? That I will have forced myself to enjoy the same things he does? Why does it have to be forced when it has already happened naturally?

Is it possible that sometimes a person meets someone they are just more compatible with and will enjoy life with more after they are married to someone else? Is it possible that maybe all parties involved can eventually go on to live a life in which they feel satisfied? (granted this might take a lot of time)

To all those working on marriages--I hope you feel in your marriage the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.

To all those whose marriages have been collapsed--I hope you find in your life the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.

Please keep giving your insights. Your words stay with me throughout my day and help me to see things from different perspectives. I appreciate the selflessness you display by taking the time to help me.

Never mind...that wasn't helpful.

I think we lost her.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

MTD

[ November 08, 2003, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]

SonofWF: "Your husband has taken good care of you and the children and made it possible for you to obtain and education and get a good job and you repaid him by lying and cheating on him. And you call yourself a good person? Maybe he is the one that needs to decide if he wants to keep you!"

That thought frquently crosses my mind...

madly_truly_deeply: "The worst part is, you know of the pain you are inflicting on your H and children, but believe they will be ok because you are happy. After all, if you're happy, they must be happy, right?"

I know that even when I am trying to be happy in my relationship with H now but am feeling torn, I can see it reflected in my H and our kids. So this would be better?

Are you positively sure that your OM is up to the task of being a step-father to your kids? If you don't know the answer then you better find out soon because if he isn't then you can be sure that your relationship with him will have a very short lifespan. You have to keep in mind that very few men are up to the task of willingly accepting the challenges and responsibilities of helping to raise another man's children.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
... I hope you find in your life the joy, love, tenderness, passion, and happiness that I feel with OM.<hr /></blockquote>this exists for you only because there's no other reality between you. you feel the way you do because -- as is so easy to do in a marriage -- you and your husband never developed the skills that keep marriages happy (or at least continued to hone the skills the keep marriages happy).

as i mentioned in an earlier post, with your husband you have a mortgage, and snotty noses and dirty bottoms to wipe. the om gets all the good stuff.

how does your husband compete with that? it's not possible with om in the picture. right now you have the best of both worlds. another man to meet some needs and a husband that meets the others.

on d-day, my wife said, "i just don't think you get to choose who you fall in love with." you're implying the same thing. the question is complete drama, to quote 2long.

you're getting a lot of good advice here. and you came here for a reason -- something seems to be screaming for you to stay with your husband ... that, despite your love to end all loves with om, you really feel you belong with at home with the man you married.

it might be worth, as others have suggested, seeking out as many former wayward spouses as you can find here.

you might also give a shout to cerri here. she's a marriage counselor schooled in the marriage builder ways. she's also both a former wayward and a former betrayed. she has lots of honest insight not many of us amateurs can give you.

To Whippit:

Thanks for the advice. I think that H and I could both benefit greatly from professional (preferrably non-religious, as this is one of my hang-ups) advice. I don't know about "screaming for you to stay with your husband," b/c what I sense there is more a feeling of duty or guilt.

To Too Much Coffee:

Of the many things I am attracted to in OM is that he is a great father to his children (already off on their own).

To madly, truly, deeply:

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.

To SonofWF:

You said, "Further more you have no regrets! You think it is just fine what you have done. And you say you have always done the “right” things all of your life? You need to reexamine your heart and your morals more carefully because what you SAY about yourself and what you are DOING are completely opposite."

I suppose I meant to say is that--up until the moment that I got intimately involved with OM that I feel that I have always strived to do what was expected of me, what I ought or should do, and what was "right" in society's eyes.

To AM Martin, LowOrbit, Snowbelle, and Deadatheart:

I feel that you can empathize with what I am going thru. But how do I force myself out of the way that I am feeling/thinking (or not thinking)? What I have now and what it used to be (yes, I can remember) pales in comparison to what I feel now. Someone said to start trying. Well, what have I been doing? I had always believed that what I have/had is what was going to be forever, so yes, I have/was already trying.

To ark^^:

I said, "I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship

You said, "It is the same as saying...yeah I was beat as a child..and I came out OK...so I will beat my own children..."

I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." Instead of, "OK, I may feel differently now, but I made a promise and, regarless of my feelings, I have to stay, since I am worth less than anyone or everyone involved." I hope that they find it the first time they take that step, but I will understand if that is not the way it happens.

To SonofWF:

You said, "You and OM lied and deceived your spouse’s. You poor husband was called up to serve his country and his wife couldn’t wait to start and affair and had sex with another guy."

H and I made it thru 10 months of his overseas tour w/o any infidelity. The 10th month was his mid-tour. (Meaning he was home for that month.) It was only a few days after he left again that I felt compelled to tell OM about my feelings. I don't understand this, but it was not about sex. (H and I hadn't missed a day when he was back.)

To All:

No, OM is not married. In fact, his ex left him for another man. He says that at the very least this experience helps him understand what she must have been feeling and wishes her the best if that was the case.

[ November 08, 2003, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: S.H. ]

Dear S.H.

You said,
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But how do I force myself out of the way that I am feeling/thinking (or not thinking)? What I have now and what it used to be (yes, I can remember) pales in comparison to what I feel now. <hr /></blockquote>You know, I came to that EXACT SAME conclusion. You are at a crossroads that will take courage, conviction, and strength of will to get through.

I suppose it's possible one could meet their "true companion" after years of marriage. But what will you do after you marry this guy and meet a "truer companion" still the following week? Will you drop you current love for him?

This is not about your husband or the OM. This is more about how you are going to CHOOSE to live your life. Will you follow the influence of the chemical soup in your brain or will you choose to follow what you know to be right?

We can argue morals all day, but I suspect you know in your heart of hearts what you need to do. What you really need to do is summon the courage to do it.

I certainly don't hold myself up as an example, but if you look back over my posts, you'll see the evolution of my feelings. After I let the OW go, I struggled for weeks with the thought that I let go of my one chance for happiness. But I have to tell you that my wife and I called up the courage to change what we had into something wonderful...something better than we ever had before. Something better than my affair ever was.

Yes, it was work. Make no mistake - all relationships are work. But the payoff was immeasurable.

During and immediately after my affair, my kids were sullen and were acting out their anger at me in all kinds of ways. Poor grades, promiscuity, etc. Thankfully, we're better now. Never kid yourself into thinking this won't have a big impact on the kids. It always does. Some are just better at hiding it than others.

Whatever you choose, I wish you happiness in it.

Low

The recreation of definitions to meet our own needs is a re-current theme you see around here...

Of the many things I am attracted to in OM is that he is a great father to his children

See here's where you change the definition...
Good Fathers are not just good to their own children...but to all children...including your children...Good Fathers do not come between the existing relationship that exists between those people and expect the real father to step out so he can step in...

You can sugar coat and try to make this some deep mysterious path of light in your life....but it's not...
no matter how you change the definition..
It is ripping your childrens lives apart at the seams...
all in the name of a new man in your life and bed...

and that you believe that all your children want if your happiness...is laughable...
children are way to egocentric and narcissistic in their developement to care about your sexual and emotional fullfillment...

If this is true...then they want their father to be happy as well...and if being with you makes their father happy...then why does your "happiness" win over dads...these are the real issues you have to face and wrestle with..
not these whiney..
I've always been a good girl...
NO ONE held a gun to your head all along..
you are no victim..
You are playing victim because not only do you want to ride off in to the sunset with OM..
you want everyone to be HAPPY about it..

can't have it both ways..
there is no honor in your actions ...
there is deceipt and pain...and you will make true victims out of those in your wake....

Do you not see the unfairness of this ??

Or can only see how it is unfair to you...

I don't care what you do..
I really don't..
but again again again...
I hope your Husband gets full custody..for your childrens sake...

I hope you do the right thing and give him that atleast...

cause trying to replace their already good father with a man who has no respect for vows and commitment is sad and damaging...no matter how you bend it...

welcome to my free spin zone SH.

ARK

S.H.

When I was your age, I went through a period of time when I thought that I was missing all of the fun and joy in life because I was married and the father of two kids. Like you, I married very early (19) and immediately began to raise a family. I think everyone goes through a period of unhappiness because we feel “tied down” by our marriage.

I met a co-worker that I truly believed could satisfy my emotional needs and love me far better than my wife. I wanted to be free of my wife. I struggled with my feels for many months. I was confused and unhappy and saddened. The only thing that stopped me was the fact that my dad had been unfaithful to my mother and I saw up close the pain and suffering that resulted from A’s.

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about deciding if you want to continue with your marriage. You have already tried the wrong way. Devote yourself to your family once again and schedule MC for you and your husband. You might want to consider individual counseling for yourself. Read all of the information that has been suggested. Talk to a couple of women on this board that can give you some insight as former WS’s. I believe Snowbelle has already responded to your e-mail and Cerri has been suggested.

If after all of this you still want a divorce, you can leave your marriage with the knowledge that you tried your best.

I hope that you find happiness and joy and peace…

Beau

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." Instead of, "OK, I may feel differently now, but I made a promise and, regarless of my feelings, I have to stay, since I am worth less than anyone or everyone involved." I hope that they find it the first time they take that step, but I will understand if that is not the way it happens.<hr /></blockquote>more drama. both of the "lessons" you state are grossly irresponsible. face it, you're justifying your own lack of responsibility and accountability for your actions. for what? one person's happiness -- yours and yours only.

after i read your words in this paragraph, two quotes immediately came to mind:

those who lack courage will always find a philosophy to justify it. ~albert camus

happiness is a singular incentive to mediocrity. ~michel montaigne

<blockquote>quote:<hr />H and I made it thru 10 months of his overseas tour w/o any infidelity. The 10th month was his mid-tour. (Meaning he was home for that month.) It was only a few days after he left again that I felt compelled to tell OM about my feelings. I don't understand this, but it was not about sex. (H and I hadn't missed a day when he was back.)<hr /></blockquote>first, most affairs are seldom about sex. they are about emotional needs that are not being met by your spouse. instead of asking our spouses to step up and meet them -- or, better still, asking "how can i meet your needs better, sweetheart" -- we just selfishly expect that they will know what they are doing wrong and then change ... which is what most people consider to be the act of "trying." it's horsesh!t and it's no way to behave in a marriage.

second, infidelity does not need sexual activity to exist. your actions are unfathful when your husband thinks they are. in other words, the emotional attachment you developed to om before you had sex with him is an act of infidelity.

i told my wife there were three things about her affair that hurt me the most. First, she had a secret life apart from our marriage that she intentionally chose to keep me from. i was not invited to her 30th birthday party, for instance. second, once she fell in love with her om, she figured i would roll over and let our marriage end without fighting.

and last, as painful as it is to think she shared her body with another man, it is 100 times worse knowing she shared her heart with another man. other men here have said i'm not alone. chances are good your husband is in the club now, too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />No, OM is not married. In fact, his ex left him for another man. He says that at the very least this experience helps him understand what she must have been feeling and wishes her the best if that was the case.<hr /></blockquote>and this is a recipe for success? oy vey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

the one thing you've mentioned that is not complete fogbabble is the need for you and your husband to find a good counselor.

i mean it when is say that it's good that you're here; and that it's not an accident. it's true that a lot of us betrayeds and former betrayeds will be tough. the thing that most of us learned was that we would never be able to change our spouses, no matter how much we wanted them to stop hurting us, themselves, and their loved ones. the change was theirs to make. you are no different.

i wish you the best, sh. things are not going to get easier for you in the near future -- this is tough stuff we're all dealing with. please continue to come here.

To madly, truly, deeply:

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Never read "The Portrait of Dorien Grey" have you? Yes hedonism is a bad thing because the basic principle of hedonism is that the person puts their wants/desires above all else, regardless of the consequences to others, even themselves. Abusers, pedifilers and rapists are forms of hedonism, albeit the most extreme. The concept is the same though..A leads to B leads to C......

MTD

P.S....Me thinks a seminar poster is in our midst.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

"I want what I want without regard for the impact on other people."

Selfishness.

OM is selfish, too. He was willing to help you break your wedding vows.

Great basis for a marriage. It's interesting... infidelity tends to run in families. Sting wrote about the impact of his mother's infidelity on him and his willingness to leave his wife and two children to remarry, a marriage that has lasted 24 years and is happy.

Well, less than 5% of marriages where the relationship starts as an affair last. Let's see... That's considerably lower odds than for marriages in general. Wonder why?

Maybe it is something about the people who find that an affair is acceptable under certain circumstances...

I really admire that you are willing to look at your behavior. You don't want your children thinking grabbing the next golden ring is acceptable; they'll be more likely to marry people who think grabbing the next golden ring is acceptable.

You have no idea the pain you are causing. There is a saying in the Bible: "The sins of the fathers will be visited on the children." Now I know why. My own children are more likely to have affairs or have partners who have affairs becasue of the actions of my H. It turns out my FIL had an A and so did the mother of OW.

S.H., Please believe me when I say you are deep within the "fog." It's very obvious to all of us here, though some of us may express it more impartially and effectively than others.

It will be obvious to you, someday, too -- at least if you're lucky. (There are some people who just drift from one fog-inducing event in their lives to the next.)

Hedonism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sufdb....YIKES.

he·don·ism from dictionary.com

1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.

2. Philosophy. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.

3. Psychology. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

Maybe you misused the word hedonism SH, but if not, if you meant these things, you would be well-served in reconsidering your view, it is a self-destructive one...for yourself, your children, and anyone you come into contact with.

1. Is animal instinct. As another poster pointed out, that means anything goes if it "feels" good, completely turn off our rational brain. Drugs, sexual perversion, pain, greed, lust, guttony, coveting, whew....scares the bejeepers out of me to even contemplate the ramifications of associateing with a hedonist, never know what they will do next if it feels good.

2.Philosophy...gosh SH, even a cursory look at defining "good" by how something feels is crazy. Do I even need to give examples?

3. Psychology, this is a little trickier. We do seek value pleasure, and avoid pain. Those are hardwired primal survival characteristics. But we also have cognitive brains, which give us the ability to assess our actions in other terms than instinct. We have the capacity to do short-term hard and painful things because of longer term benefits. This is a huge advantage, as it enlarges the scope of our existence in many wonderful ways. I don't think I am willing to give that up, how about you? Psychologically and physically at a primal level we are hardwired to make as many children as possible, with as many different partners as possible, we can do this...but no sane person would argue it is a good thing to do so, the long-term cost is far too high for the individual....since we are able to see that, and decide not to do that, hedonism cannot be the way we are supposed to live. On the other hand, we can prove moral behaviour is hardwired into human beings (as opposed to taught or learned).

So clearly we have other factors motivateing behaviour....hedonism is amoral, so one would have to wonder why we would embrace it...the only amoral human beings are psychopaths (and their kissing cousins sociopaths), and I doubt you are a psychopath.

[ November 09, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

SH - Please continue to post here. What you're saying is so similar to the things my WP said that it's beyond eerie. I want to understand better how my WP made the choices she made, and I suspect I'll understand that much better through watching you.

Having said that, here's something I'd like you to think about. You say that your husband has put a tremendous amount into your marriage and family.

You, on the other hand, have learned to value your independence and freedom. You're also learning that society's strictures feel too tight.

Here's the thing, though. There are huge chunks of society that would wave and cheer you on -- to "do what you feel is right" and to "follow your heart." You're hearing that seductive song from your friends and family already.

So... society is not, in fact, really drubbing you in the face for your relationship with OM. Oh, sure, everyone HERE is, but not the rest of society. So why are you here taking the drubbing? Why are you listening to all these voices that are saying these things?

My suspicion is that our voices match some of the things you're hearing in your own head. We almost always search out words that reflect what we are already hearing in our heads. That allows us to clarify and expand our own thoughts.

So. You also said you want your children to be able to live free of society's strictures. I think that what you really mean is that you want the voices of guilt and fear and general yuckiness out of your OWN head.

(You don't know, after all, what's really going on in your kids' heads, nor what they're really going to think as adults.)

I think you want us to fight you on this. And in fighting it, you want to justify all of it to yourself. You want to fight and rebel against us and against your husband, and you want to then be able to say, "See? I won my independence! I won my freedom!"

Well, I'm not going to fight you, though plenty of others here will.

Go ahead. Be a strong, free, independent person. Don't do something just because it's what your husband wants. Accept that you HAVE A CHOICE. YOU CAN SAY NO. And if you don't, then it's YOUR PROBLEM.

Not his.

His problem is an unfaithful wife who refuses to take her vows seriously. His problem is a wife who has not put enough into her marriage, and who is running away from the guilt that she feels because of it. His problems are just as big as yours. But they're very different.

Just J: I, too, was wondering where all those societal strictures that repress us are. Certainly my H didn't seem to feel any when he pranced off with crazy OW.

As often with popular culture, we are taught to fight straw men. The generous 19th-century message about fighting social strictures (cf., Flaubert, Hugo, Tolstoy) have somehow survived into the 21st century, which could use a few strictures on its rampant self-indulgence and self-absorption.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:


I see it as a chance for our kids not to feel so restricted by societal rules that they feel they have to sacrifice their own desires b/c they had to remain in a relationship that was spiritless even though they may have an opportunity to experience, later on, a truly fulfilling bond. It may teach them to say, "OK, I may have grown since I entered this relationship and now realize that it may not be right for me." <hr /></blockquote>Those "societal rules" you so hate are really your conscience speaking. You are trying hard to drown out your conscience and hoping that you can do the same to your children.

Your children have a special relationship with their FATHER and need an intact family. You are only teaching them that it is ok to destroy their lives in pursuit of some co**. They will never forget that you did that to them.

Children are scarred for life from divorce and you are willing to sacrifice their well being so you can act like a cat in heat and chase your feeling de jour. Your kids will NEVER be the same because you have no control over your feelings and are not man enough to acknowledge right from wrong.

I say acknowledge, because I know you know the difference by your efforts to drown out your conscience.

Drown it out at your demise, my dear, because it will haunt you and kill you. Mark my words. It will scream and scream until you can't take it anymore. You might have to even drink or do drugs to drown the voice out.

And then the depression will follow. You won't know why you are depressed for a long time. You will look around and everything seems just fine. You will be baffled. So you will start taking anti-depressants. That will help drown it out. But you will be a zombie. Because in addition to drowning out the depression and the voices, you have now chemically drowned out joy and happiness. You are now a walking dead person.

You will never feel the thing you wanted all along because you went about it the wrong way. You don't understand the greatest truth of life:

HAPPINESS IS THE RESULT OF LIVING RIGHT.

It is not acheived by chasing the feeling de' jour, [hedonism] but by abiding by one's conscience and doing the right thing, NO MATTER HOW HARD. It is acheived by caring for others and being decent, honest, compassionate, prudent, disciplined, truthful and GOOD.

It hurts my heart to read moral relativistic thoughts that believe that children are disposable commodities that take second place to fleeting, silly infatuations. It hurts more to read sick, twisted rationalizations of such evil.

But it makes me glad to be alive to know that I am in the same world as courageous good people like ark, whippit, sufbd, LowOrbit, Just J, Annamarie, madlytrulydeeply, brokenheartandarm, Toomuchcoffeeman, Sonof WF, and Snowbelle, who know right from wrong and have the courage to say it. You folks are awesome and I am proud to know you all.

[ November 09, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

S.H. I just need to comment on something you said, about OM's wife left him and now he understands why she needed to what she did...That is absolutely infuriating, I am the BS and I could never imagine putting another W through what I myself have been through, and believe me, there was a married man whom I was very good friends with that showed a true attraction to me, his W is a complete B***h to him most of the time and has admitted to the almighty $$ being very important to her, BUT he has still chosen to stay in that marriage loveless or not, I couldn't imagine being the other woman after the pain I felt myself. I remember saying to my H's OW that I truly hope she never has to go through what i am going through and if she has then that makes her even worse of a person than I thought...You may not be able to control immediate feelings for someone but you can control the actions you take, you chose to not try with your H, chalking it up to the passion being gone...Give your marriage a chance and at least see if it just went to "sleep" for a period of time, something you are both responsible, then if there is nothing there, make a decision. But for your kids you need to at least try..

Sorry but your comment touched a button...I hope you make the right decision not just based on hormonol feelings..

[ November 09, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]

Melody, Thanks for the praise, but I really don't deserve any awards for virtue. I've made some big-time mistakes in this area in the past, real whoppers. It's in the nature of the times.

We live in a time when we are trained to value nothing except the "self," the "real me." So eerything, in the end, comes down to "loving yourself." "You can't love anyone till you love yourself," it's commonly said nowadays, which gives rise to an endless self-absorption. Whatever happened to the ancient idea that you can't find love except by giving of yourself? Nowadays, I tend to go much more with Oscar Wilde:

To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance.

Youth comes and goes, but immaturity can stay with you forever.

If I sound different now, it's because I've learned by hard experience, and a lot of stupid relationships in the past.

Just read this whole thread.

Thanks for all who have the patience to reply to S.H.

What a display of courage and passion to save someone from the pitfall of an A!

Your posts made me cry.

S.H,

I can't add anything, nor can I hope that whatever I say will change your mind. You're heading where every WS is heading to. Print Melody's last post to you and I challenge you to deviate from the outcome that she's given, if you chose to continue with your affair. You won't be able to (so much for your "independence"). If I could bet on it, I'd sell my house.

Regarding your kids...

My daughter (12) expressed the desire to tatoo "I hate OP" on her arm, so that her mother can understand how much she's hurting. Think about it. Your children will put a brave face and will smile to OP when they meet, but don't trust that facade. An affair destroys their childhood, their safety, their world. Can you take the heat for doing that? All because you found a "soulmate". They will hate the "soulmate". The "soulmate" will hate them. You will be the one to take sides (how "independent" your choice will be then?). Who will you defend? OP? Your OWN kids? It's a tough choice. One should never put him/herself in this position. That's what you're doing now. Stepping into the trap laid up for you.

S.H., I know you don't want to hear what everybody is telling you. You haven't experienced the aftermath yet. You're experiencing the "high" of the affair now. I admire your courage to have come here whether accidentally or not. Comeback when you really get hurt. It will happen sooner than you think.

BigStar

P.S.

There is a reason why pro-marriage counsellors don't accept couples when one of them doesn't want their marriage. YOU have to want it first, but to get there, you have to hurt yourself. Go ahead, hurt your husband, your kids and yourself, but if your husband is with someone else when you want back, don't blame him. Blame yourself.

I wish you all the best.

My first post!!!
A bit about me...
-4 year marriage/no kids
-noticed wife's best freind avoiding eye contact with me
-started snooping and found wife involved with her boss
-my d-day was hell, theirs was probably more so
-divorced 8 months with no regrets
-I'm kinda forensically filling in the blanks, great website

I work with a woman with kids about your children's age and who was unhappy with her husband returning from an 11 month reserve deployment. There was no infidelity involved, she just kinda wanted her hubby to start looking for a new place to live the day after he returned.
They had problems before he left.

Her husband got a lawyer and she was removed from the house about a week later. It seems the judge felt her husband needed to re-establish his relationship with his children and that she could have handled things differently. She was given lots of incentive to work things out with her husband.

My point is that you're only in a position of strength because of your husband's...kindness. I'm not judging you, your soulmate/guy you're banging sounds like a real winner. I'm just saying your problems at the moment are nothing compared to what may happen if your husband gets an aggressive attorney and pushes for full custody.

I don't mean to sound harsh, its good that you're full of self-confidence. But you may well lose your kids, lose your job, and wind up a single woman who has to explain why she doesn't have custody of her kids and why she felt the need to cheat on her hubby while he was serving his country in time of war. There are some judges out there who may take a very, very dim view of your smug journey of self-discovery.

I have been following this thread and find it amazing how so many people with experience have been trying to lift S.H. from the fog. Also, it is wonderful to see that S.H. has the incredible courage to visit and post on the site, and be willing to at least educate herself.

I truly hope that you, S.H. can find it deep within your heart the same love and passion you once did feel for your H that you now think you feel for OM. I'ts there, and you KNOW it deep down in the back of your mind. Please, I implore you to just let it re-surface and give him the chance to start meeting your EN's again and I believe the passion will return with time and committment.

I also, truly wish that my WH would have the courage to come to this site, because I did tell him about it when he asked me where I learned about the FOG I told him he is under. Unfortunately, I don't believe he has visited it yet, simply because I think he is not as courageous as you S.H. to seek out help or to see if what he is experiencing is just infatuation and fantasy.

I apologize for venting on your thread, but please keep educating yourself, and don't shut out the great people who are fighting for you and your marriage.

God Bless,
FF

^^^

Saving your marriage is always the right thing to do!!

Beau

H is back and things still seem awkward and forced. I find myself thinking more about the hurt I have already caused H and how I would hurt my kids if I do not try to make this work. H and I talked about seeing a MC. He called me this morning at work to tell me that he thinks I should be the one to call. I haven't yet b/c today at work was hectic. I have tomorrow off and plan to call. I tried to find Harley's book, Surviving an Affair, at the library. Of course they didn't have it. Our library kind of sucks. I did find a pretty good one. When I got home I found out H called OM. He wanted him to come over and talk. (They had spoken about the A previously.) OM insisted that I should be here when they met. I had H call OM back and tell him that I didn't think it was a good idea. Partly b/c H had been drinking all afternoon. Partly b/c that would be just too awkward and I would feel forced into talking about things that I feel should be left alone until I am thinking more clearly about them. Partly b/c I think H and I would benefit more from talking about this with a MC than with OM.

I am going to go start reading the book and perhaps browse this site some more--looking up things like FOG, Plan A, Plan B, etc. Thank you everyone for your valuable inputs.

sh ... this is very good news. it's going to get harder before it gets easier from here. but i, for one, am proud of these first setps you've taken.

it would also be a good idea for your husband to start coming to the site and learning the mb principles. when you can, maybe instead of going to library for surviving and affair you go to the bookstore and purchase two copies: one for you and one for your husband.

please keep coming here.

On occassion all the parties do have a group conversation, but it is rare, and of dubious value because of the intense issues. If you can all be highly rational, altruistic, and healthily focused, more power to you, but I doubt it. The only time this makes any sense is two couples, hashing out the issues, each coming from common ground, balanced so to speak. The moment you have a threesome, where 2 suitors are haggling (or euphemistically discussing in any context at all) over one mating opportunity, you got trouble with a capital "T". When you throw in children, and financial issues, well..... lucky if it ends simply without violence, but nothing good will prevail. The best would just be the op showing up long enough to apologize, pledge NC, and leave....and that can be done one on one with the bs, or by other means (phone etc.).

If perchance you all decide to do this, it should be done on neutral ground with a facillitator (such as a counselling professional, or religious leader).

SH I have a question (and it is not meant to be disrespectful). At some level are you feeling anything "good" (so to speak) about having 2 men want you, and being the center of that kind of struggle?

[ November 11, 2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

S.H.
Congratulations…you made the correct choice to discuss OM with husband during MC. I am proud of you for taking the first step on the road to self-discovery. Continue to post questions and we will do out best to guide you as you go forward with MC.

I know that you get tired of us saying to stop all contact with OM and direct your energies toward making your marriage all that it can be. The reason is simple – if you continue to see OM your head will be telling you one thing and your heart will be saying another. You will continue to be conflicted about your choices.

Look other e-mails of recent and you will discover that every wayward spouse says the exact same thing about the OP, e.g., “the love of my life”, “my soul-mate”, “ I have never felt this way about anyone.” Sound familiar?

Well, if you follow their stories a little further you will also discover that they come to understand (fog clears) that their thinking was irrational and their feelings were totally unfounded. In fact, OM is not special, not the love they though he was, and in fact he may have more problems than husband.

If you read the story of Nursedg4 - the short story is that she took her children and left her husband and lived with OM for 3.5 years. At the end of the affair she discovered that the “love of her life” had a series of affairs while she was living with him. The pain that she caused her husband suddenly rained down on her. And she grieved terribly.

She left OM and moved back home. She is now living in the same town as H and has maintained a certain level of contact with him because of the kids. Now, she “sees” the terrible damage that both OM and she caused and is hurting every minute of the day because of OM’s betrayal of her. Betrayal is about the worst thing that you can do to a spouse.

Remember we said, “if they do it with you they will do it too you.” That expression is based on many years of experience. If OM, who has been cheated on and is a cheater himself, has no real appreciation of the pain that his affair with you has caused and no commit to marriage because he helped you break your vow, what makes you believe that he will be faithful to you? I know, I know, he is the “love of your life” and he would never do that to you. Just look around on MB and you will see just like Nursedg4 did that “if they do it with you they will do it to you.” The reason is simple – they have no respect for marriage. They have no firm beliefs. Their belief system is very poorly developed and when a new skirt comes along…watch out! There will always be prettier, more attractive, sexier women than you. Had you met a real man at work and developed and emotional connection, the real man would have said, “ I am sorry but I love my wife and kids and I can not be more than friends.” See OM’s are only interested in short-term pleasure. Oh, I know, I know, he would never do that to you.

Beau

^^^^ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ~

my turn ... ^^bump^^

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by whippit:
 my turn ... ^^bump^^ <hr /></blockquote>In your case I was hoping a cracking whip sound. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

only if she continues to linger in the fog!

She is a smart woman and shows alot of courage to come here and expose her feels. I hope the fogbank begins to breakup soon.

Beau

~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ~

As the wife of a reservist that has been overseas for the last 7 months, this thread makes me absolutely sick. I am going to go hurl now.

AnnieK:

Agreed. That's why *I* haven't been back in a while. I remarked 2 her original statement that "we didn't make it through his deployment" that, NO, it wasn't "we". SHE didn't make it. He appears 2 have. Then she repeated the we remark.

I do acknowledge her willingness 2 come back and post for feedback, but I still 2uestion her motives.

2 answer her 2uestion, the subject of this thread:

2: "Trying 2 save marriage always right?"
A: Yes. Trying 2 save anything worthwhile like the bond of marriage is always right. SAVING may not be always the right thing 2 do, but trying always is. Because, no matter what she does, she needs 2 get rid of this baggage she's accumulated.

2 answer another implied 2uestion, paraphrasing the subject of this thread:

2: Trying 2 build a fu2re with an OP EVER right, once an A has started?
A: No. Never. End of discussion.

-ol' 2long

~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ~

S.H.

Just checking to see if you are alright.

Beau

S.H.

Please do come back. I hope my posts 2 you haven't offended. What you, and many of us, are dealing with can be very, very painful. My remark was intended 2 help you see the pain that your H must be feeling, and realize that they stem from your recent choices.

It was not intended 2 paint you as a villain and your H as an innocent victim, because the "reasons" for infidelity are bigger than just "finding passion". It's the bigger causes that need 2 be addressed in order for personal sanity 2 prevail, but while an A is going, particularly one just starting, it's hard 2 even recognize these.

...of course, it sure helps if the elephant can be shot summarily with a big gun packed with high explosives... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Please come back.

take care,
-ol' 2long

S.H.,

The longer you are gone, the more I think you have made your choice to follow your foggy heart into an affair with OM.

Please post and let us know how you are.

I hope you are OK. Let us know how you are doing.

Beau

I told H that I was coming to this site. He has read some of the material on the site and has also read these posts. Believe it or not, I hate to keep things from him (or anyone). Keeping secrets weighs too heavily on me. (I don't know why I thought I could keep the A a secret!?) I am mostly a blunt, straight-forward, honest type of person. Perhaps that's why A started in the first place... I couldn't keep feelings buried inside... I haven't been posting b/c I feel funny knowing that H can come and read them. No, we haven't been to MC. But we might start. We found out that the military offers free MC. Yes, the financial thing was a concern. I read a bit about how much it could cost. Finance is yet another issue. H is retiring. Will only be getting retirement check after the end of this month. We are counting mostly on my income. (Panic!) I will have to wait and see if I am still brave enough to post, knowing that H will come here and read everything I say.

Thanks for still posting. Please be blunt and brutally honest. That is my style and I appreciate that in others as well.

You might start a separate thread on this new subject -- I know a lot of people have their spouses reading, too. So you aren't alone in dealing with that...inhibition?...

S.H.

If your honest with your husband he will not read anything that you have not told him.

I want you to know that you have shown alot of courage to come here and take the heat. I know that you can do anything that you set your mind too. Give your marriage a fair shake.

Beau

<blockquote>quote:<hr />First of all, STOP ACTING NEEDY AND STOP PURSUING HER. Nothing is as unattractive as a BS trying to 'reclaim' his/her WS with showers of attention or affection when he or she is in withdrawl and in contact with the OP. Not only does it not work, like you have seen for yourself, but it makes the WS beleive that the BS is doing it more out of fear of losing him/her than out of true, genuine love for him/her. I recommend that you start making yourself scarce when your W is around. If she tries to engage you in small, meaningless chat, answer her in a cold and emotionless fashion and leave the room as soon as you answered her. DO NOT BE MEAN OR DISRESPECTFUL TO HER and if she asks you what is wrong convey to her CALMLY, RESPECTFULLY AND QUIETLY that since she puts her contact with the OM above your personal devastation, that it is extremely painful for you to see have any contact with her and that until she OF HER OWN FREE WILL choses to have no more contact with the OM by going to that dojo, that it is best for you that she stay away from you as much as possible. You see if you ACT like nothing is wrong and convey to her with your silence to 'Don't worry about me honey and go see the OM', then she will with a clear conscience. If she truly cares for you she will not enjoy leaving you to go to the dojo where she is going to be in contact with the OM, and she may decide that it is not worth to risk losing you by going to that dojo. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oh and go sleep in another room so that she sleeps alone in the bedroom. Let her experience some of the loneliness you feel because of her selfish choices. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> At step you might consider is EXPOSING the affair. It would be appropriate to contact the OM’s wife and let her know about the affair. The OM’s wife needs to know what her H is doing behind her back.

The purpose of exposing the affair is NOT REVENGE. It is an effective way to stop the affair.

You might consider exposing the affair to friends and family that are support of your marriage. Again this approach is NOT REVENGE but to increase the pressure on W to have NC. The people you tell about the affair should have some influence with your wife and be willing to call her and support your marriage.

I know this is hard and embarrassing but if you want your marriage to work you have got to be insistent on NO CONTACT. <hr /></blockquote>

The previous three quotes I posted were from damian's post entitled "Continuing Contact." They were from Coffee (first two) and Beau (last one). I was wondering why you hadn't replied to me in this type of way? Is it b/c my job and our livelihood depends on my income now?

Just wondering...

SH, I am not sure to whom you are addressing your question, but I would guess those questions weren't directed at you because your situation is entirely different. Do you think they apply to you? How so?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
The previous three quotes I posted were from damian's post entitled "Continuing Contact." They were from Coffee (first two) and Beau (last one). I was wondering why you hadn't replied to me in this type of way? Is it b/c my job and our livelihood depends on my income now?

Just wondering...<hr /></blockquote>Because you are NOT the BS who is trying to cut through the 'fog' of the WS to help him/her see with his/her own eyes the devastation he/she has wrought. If a BS tries to conceal his/her feelings (not the same as lashing out at the WS) for fear of upsetting or getting the WS angry, then he/she is non verbally conveying to the WS that 'I'm ok, your affair is no big deal' and thus the WS doesn't get to see the devastating consequences that his/her affair has had upon the unsuspecting BS. If the WS still choses to have contact with the OP, there is nothing that the BS can do to stop him/her from doing so, BUT the BS can make sure that the WS KNOWS that his/her pleasure comes at a great emotional cost to the BS. If the WS still has some conscience left, he/she enjoyment of his/her encounters with the OP will be now marred with thoughts of the devastated BS. Ask yourself if you can truly enjoy your encounters with your OP as much as you did before your H knew about your affair and experienced the emotional toll he is now experiencing. If you can answer yes then I'm sorry to say that your conscience is no more.

S.H.

I didn't respond to you in the manner described because you are the WS. If, I had an opportunity to talk to your husband, I would have encouraged him to confront you with what he knows and expose the affair and insist on no contact.

My comments to you were directed at getting you to be honest with your husband. Because you pride yourself on honesty, my I once again respectfully remind you that your behavior was dishonest, cruel, hurtful, and selfish.

Beau

SH, what SonofWF said is right on. Those comments are for the spouse who is not having the affair. They are the things we would all advise that person to do. In essence, they boil down to treating the unfaithful spouse with respect while making clear that the unfaithful spouse's actions are devastatingly painful.

S.H.

Your husband may want to post a topic so that we can respond. He can identify himself however he pleases but if he uses “Mr.S.H.” or something of the sort, we would get the message and be supportive of his efforts to reconcile the marriage.

Since both of you are reading MB nothing would be hidden from the other. This is just a thought and a response is not necessary.

Beau

Went thru tough wake-up call this weekend. We start counseling tomorrow. Might be some time before I post again.

Thanks again for your input everyone.

S.H.

I hope it's NOT a long while before we hear from you again, but I will respect your desire 2 stay off the boards if that's what you want, or if that's what your therapist recommends.

It is possible 2 lurk, or even post about general self-help thoughts, if you're not comfortable talking about your M. We'd still like 2 try and help if we can.

-2long

S.H.

I will be praying for you and your family.

Beau

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by S.H.:
Went thru tough wake-up call this weekend. We start counseling tomorrow. Might be some time before I post again.

Thanks again for your input everyone.<hr /></blockquote>When you are ready to share some more info we are here to help you and your loved ones in any way we can.

Take care and God bless you and yours.

Originally Posted by S.H.

I also fell in love with a co-worker.

H and I still love each other, but there is a lack of passion. I feel fiercely passionate about the OM and that I may be missing my chance if I try to stay in a marriage that is merely not bad. I have never felt this strongly about anyone. I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H. I feel that trying to keep the marriage is not always the thing to do. I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover and find happiness and hope he does.

I believe my kids will do well thru it b/c there is a lot of love. H & I are dealing with this calmly and rationally, but slowly. If my kids found this kind of passion, even if they were married to someone else, I would want them to pursue it and live it. But I also know if they were on the other end it would really eat me up.

I am interested in hearing opinions from all sides on this one...

SH,

You asked for opinions (none of this should surprise you), so here goes...

You have "fallen in love" (i.e. become temporarily emotionally-addicted to) a man who is NOT your husband. Falling-in-love is a complete misnomer--it has NOTHING to do with real love but merely represents a transitory bio-emotional state of attraction. It is nothing more than the humanized state that animals have when "in heat" or in "breeding season". Yes, the human form has been romanticized and glorified in literature, poetry, movies, and song (it feels good!) but it represents nothing more than a call to reproduce and perpetuate the species. People, when "in love", have sex...lots of it. The only non-natural barrier preventing casual reproduction (among pre-menopausal women anyway) is the easy-availability and efficay of modern contraceptives.

I know you will deny all the above and insist that your current emotional state is "much more", "unique", "special", and far more significant ("meant to be"). You will also deny (for purely self-serving 'appearances' sake only) that lust is a factor. Not wanting to be considered (by others or yourself) to be sexually-unfaithful, you will insist that it really is "just about pure love only, nothing else". Of course this is utter nonsense--you have already had sex with this man or, at the very least, are planning in your mind to do so soon. The sex/thoughts-of-sex are merely the manifestation of the attraction/emotional-addiction state...you have already been unfaithful in your mind and probably elsewhere too.

You must end the relationship with this OM immediately, go to complete NC with him forever, and come clean to your husband about all of it. Your "magical feelings" toward him are not magic...they will evaporate gradually over a few weeks-to-months. Meanwhile, if you follow Dr. Harley's advice by spending QT together and meeting each other's key ENs, you will regain the "lost" connection and passion with your husband that you are foolishly seeking to replace with your adultery/lover.

All the justifications and rationalizions you gave...

'I don't have passion with my H, but I do with OM' [see above]
'I have never felt like this with anyone else before' [BS--there is NOTHING special here]
'I may be missing my chance' [it's a 'chance' that fails 95% of the time & ruins lives and families]
'I don't regret the A and have only apologized for the hurt that it caused my H' [cruelly insensitive & selfish]
'I believe my H is strong and can go on to recover' [self-entitlement + guilt-covering here]
'I believe my kids will do well thru it' [the ole "kids will understand" nonsense--pure fantasy--this will damage them for life]
'But I also know if they were on the other end it would really eat me up' [so, you are entitled to unto others that which you would NEVER want done to you?]

.......are the EXACT SAME EXCUSES USED BY EVERY WAYWARD SPOUSE SINCE THE DAWN OF HUMANITY. There is NOTHING SPECIAL, NOBLE, OR UNIQUE about your situation. I heard virtually everything you wrote word-for-word from my WW as has virtually every BS on these boards.

Adultery destroys marriages, families, friendships, and children
Adultery almost never results in the "happy-ever-after" fantasy that you envision
Adultery corrupts the mind, stains the soul, and devastates the heart
Adultery wrecks lives eventually, especially that of the adulterer

"Following your feelings, in the absence of your values and standards, is the surest path to personal ruin"
--Dr. Gary Chapman

You are aware this thread is from 2003, right?

Wow, SDCW_man, if I thought for one minute that my wife would read it, much less have any impact on her, I'd ask you to send this to her!

Originally Posted by Pepperband

You are aware this thread is from 2003, right?

So it is, It's a great notable post though.

Wow, I loved the post to pull this thread current!!

Originally Posted by Pepperband

You are aware this thread is from 2003, right?

Obviously, I didn't notice the date and assumed it was current. Thank you for pointing that out. It won't assist the original poster and, let's be honest, probably would have been ignored by her anyway had it been made available back in 2003.

Otherwise, I stand by what I wrote as it is timeless and universal.

I'm just curious how these old threads get resurrected. I have to really go back and spend a long time finding something specific that I'm looking for. These just don't accidentally rise to the top of the current boards without some research.

What were you looking for when you found this one?

Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA

Wow, SDCW_man, if I thought for one minute that my wife would read it, much less have any impact on her, I'd ask you to send this to her!

Fred,

Ever watched snow flurries fall onto warm pavement and melt away instantly to never accumulate?

The futility of trying to "reason" with an emotionally-addicted WS is just like that. Been there as you have as well, I'm sure. Thank you for the compliment though.

Originally Posted by KaylaAndy

I'm just curious how these old threads get resurrected. I have to really go back and spend a long time finding something specific that I'm looking for. These just don't accidentally rise to the top of the current boards without some research.

What were you looking for when you found this one?

I wondered that too.

Since it was "near the top" of the SAA forum when I saw it, I simply assumed it was current and didn't look at the old date.

Hi there, SDCW_man!

May I make a suggestion? Start a new thread for this post - it's that good! I know that you feel like it will fall on deaf ears, but you never know what might get through - and though it won't stop a wayward that is hellbent on leaving, it absolutely can help a wayward starting to peek through the fog - of that I am sure...

The first thing that got through to me back then? Something from the "31 Reasons to Stop an Affair" document that Mr. W had printed and left lying around the house...There was a part that said "Is this who you would choose if you were single right now?" [paraphased]...My answer was a resounding "NO WAY!"...and with that, the fog began to dissipate little by little...As I said, you just never know...

I hope you will consider the new thread...that post of yours is good stuff!

Mrs. W

Originally Posted by MrsWondering

The first thing that got through to me back then? Something from the "31 Reasons to Stop an Affair" document that Mr. W had printed and left lying around the house...There was a part that said "Is this who you would choose if you were single right now?" [paraphased]...My answer was a resounding "NO WAY!"...and with that, the fog began to dissipate little by little...As I said, you just never know...
Mrs. W

This is a key question and one that I and many other BSs have pondered. Unfortunately, few WSs ever consider it seriously, so I commend you for doing so.

It really cuts to the core of how ridiculous and bizarrely-fantasy-induced most affairs are. It strips out all the moral, ethical, and emotional trangressions involved (which are massive of course) and gets down to the practical aspects. It removes the marital "problems" and BS-scapegoatings from the picture as well. Simply put:

If the WS had never met their spouse, had never married, and was single and emotionally "Head-screwed on straight", would the OP really be someone you would want to 'date' and pursue a romantic relationship with? If the WS had a same-sex friend who told them about this OP and wanted to 'fix them up', would the OP be someone that the WS would knowingly say "sure, I would love to meet him/her...Set me up" ???

The truthful answer to those questions is a resounding "NO" in 99% of cases. Dr. Pittman explains:
An affair with someone grossly inappropriate�someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own�is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

My xWW's OM is/was/has/had:

17 years older
a high-school dropout
married
on his 3rd marriage (the current-AM is now his 4th)
cheated on ALL 3 previous wives to take up with each succeeding affair-partner in turn
completely abandoned 2 of his 3 kids (from 3 different women) financially & emotionally
virtually no involvement with his one other offspring and didn't care (Father-in-name-only)
a history of shady financial dealings and bankruptcy
been jailed for non-payment of spousal/child-support
ABSOLUTETLY NOTHING in common with her beyond working for the same employer and hanging out at the same club

When I asked her "is this really someone, 'us' aside, that you would have ever considered being involved with before?", I got an angry and vindictive "YES!" in return (how dare I suggest otherwise?). Completely untrue and truly insane...