additional information requested

dude ... i think we scared her away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whippit:
<strong> dude ... i think we scared her away. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so because she posted again yesterday and her post showed no evidence that she felt attacked in any way, shape or form. She maybe digesting the advice we gave her to make a final decision.

i was joking. she seems like a smart person who is here because of as yet unstated purpose. i am confident she will be back, too.

further information requested

This week alone has hardly been a time to think. No, I am not spending time with OM aside from work. However my father is here for a visit--planned before H and I decided to be apart for a while. (He was going to visit to give us some time to go out and enjoy ourselves.)

I have come to realize that I have gotten used to being alone and am enjoying it. When H first left for overseas I went thru a period of about 2 months where I would have panic attacks. But now I like this feeling of independence.

So what is one supposed to do when in this so-called fog? (No, I haven't gotten any of the books mentioned previously. Yes, I plan to. No matter how stubborn I am I still like to get different points of view.) We had been trying to do it together. Seeing if time would help bring us to some new level of our relationship. Also to let my feelings for OM wither away from neglect. I must be honest--I was still obsessed with thinking about him, although he was still under the impression that things were getting back underway btwn H and me. Of course H knew that I wasn't "here" all the time, and when we would talk I was totally honest with him and let him know that I still had strong feelings. That is why we decided that maybe being apart for a while would help.

I am still unsure about how I would like to see this end up. The "happy family" thing seems appealing occasionally. I missed H so bad last night that I called him and asked if he would want to come back earlier than planned. However, today I am back to the same-old indecisive me. More often I find myself yearning for just being alone. Alone meaning without any man. Of course the kids miss him and many people think that I am being selfish (especially where the kids are concerned) by wanting out. How unselfish would it be to remain in the relationship when my heart is not in it? Does that tell my kids that if a person is unhappy in a marriage that they must live out a life-long sentence b/c their feelings and happiness are then secondary to others'? Is it impossible for anyone involved to be happy ever again when a marriage ends?

I was 17 when I met my H and 19 when we married. I went from home to him. I have always been taken care of. I have never been alone. Someone always paid the bills for me and took care of responsibilities like insurance, car payments, leases, etc. I feel a kind of euphoria now that I know I am capable of taking care of myself and my children. I long to be on my own, but I am still scared. If I stay is it b/c I am being selfless or cowardly? If I leave is it b/c I am being selfish or brave?

I talked to H today. He says he can't wait much longer for a decision to be made. I want more time alone. I don't think my H wants me to be with him half-heartedly, and I don't know how to force my feelings otherwise.

I've read every response. (I am confused what messages that read "bump" are supposed to mean.) Perhaps I will respond to individual inputs eventually.

Thank you all for your opinions and personal accounts.

Contrare to what you are saying, I am of the belief that the braver thing to do is to try and save the M. Leaving is the easy part, believe me. You may have already mentioned this but I'll ask anyway. Have you considered what this is doing to your H and kids? Do they deserve what you are doing to them? Despite what people think the simple facts are (statistically backed) that kids of divorced parents are more often than not NOT ok after the D. There are usually lingering emotional and psychological effects that may not manifest themselves untill well into adulthood. I'm not saying couples should stay together because of the kids. But kids are probably the best reason to try and save the M. The children are the most inoccent victims in these scenarios and the parents (both the BS and the WS) owe them nothing less.

MTD

S.H.

I have been "bumping" the thread to the top of the page to make it easier for you to locate the information.

Beau

S.H. let's call a spade a spade and let's accept the fact that if the OM had never appeared on the scene there would most likely not be this glorification talk about being independent and on your own. No, the real reason for this romanticizing of 'independence' is really all about ending the marriage in order to start a relationship with the OM. There is a statistic that says that only 3% of marriages that started out as affairs during previous marriages, become succesful, so if you had any plans of getting married to the OM then your chances of a marriage with him are already stacked against you. Again I ask you to please read nursedg4 thread titled
please give me your opinions. to get a realistic view as to what the future holds for you if you take the route you have been contemplating and which she did to her regret.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read every response. (I am confused what messages that read "bump" are supposed to mean.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When a member posts a message that reads "bump" what he or she is trying to do is bring the thread, in this case yours, to the top of the first page to get more exposure and more feedback from other members that might have missed it the first time it appeared on the first page.

Here's some more background...

My H told me that quite frequently I have threatened to leave him as soon as I was financially able. I only remember one time when our kids were 1 and newborn. (Those can be very difficult times.) We had a fight and I was so mad that I really wanted to leave, but I realized that I had no skills or education so life would be very hard.

Now I have earned a degree in a promising field. H worked and took care of our kids, all the finances and all the household chores. I put in the time studying and commuting to the university, managing to cover tuition, day-care and travel expenses with scholarships. We eliminated a huge amount of debt while he was overseas. It is obvious that financial stability is very important to me. So now I feel that I have financial independence.

The only time I would go out without H was to "girl" parties--baby showers, Tupperware, and the like--and to bingo. While he was away "our" friends never bothered to call to see if I wanted to do anything. I realized whose friends "our" friends really were. H is very likable and people love to hang out with him. I feel like I am mostly along for the ride and try to be entertaining. I finally started to go out with friends to shop, chat at the neighborhood bar, play pool, or just go to the movies solo. H never seemed to have a problem doing things without me. Golf would keep him out for half the day. There were times when he would come home in the early hours of morning after going out for "just a couple" of drinks after work with the guys. So now I have my own friends and feel that I have achieved social independence.

This is cold, but although I do love my H, maybe a big part of that is b/c I knew he could/would take care of me. Maybe he is my security blanket. Maybe OM is a security blanket too, but that is why I would want to stay by myself for at least a year before making any major decisions.

SonofWF said previously, "The passion you feel now you once felt for your husband a long time ago." But he must have not read that I had originally posted, "I have never felt this strongly about anyone." That is absolutely true. Yes, I still remember all that I have felt for H over the years. He is still my friend, and he knows me better than anyone else (and still loves me--wow!). But I have never felt the way I feel for OM about H. Less than one month after we were married I remember feeling panicked and talking to H b/c I didn't feel that I truly loved him. I also remember feeling panicked and talking to OM b/c I had to tell him how I felt about him(OM).

Well, I was raised to do the "right" thing. Once married, stay married. Go to school and get a degree. (The way I was raised is that, as a female, you either have to be going to college, working after earning a degree, or raising children to be of any worth to society. If you are a male just toss out the raising children part.) ***long side-note...After a few years of school I was miserable about the major I had chosen. I was too far in to change b/c my scholarships were specifically for my field. I spent many nights crying in the early morning hours hating what I had got myself into, but I finished anyway. I am capable of, and plagued by, doing the "right" thing.*** Go to church. Volunteer. These are all things that I hate/hated to do precisely b/c that is what is/was expected of me. I feel like I have had little control over my life and decisions that have been made.

I am so tired of living my life based on "this is what I am supposed to do" and "this is what I should do"!!! I want to do what I feel like doing!

Yeah, the statistics are not on my side. Maybe things won't work out if I end up with OM. I feel I could live with that. I feel that I regret it forever if I didn't try. My H and some friends of ours have all told me to go with my heart and what I feel. They tell me that is the only way I will be able to make the right choice. I want to, but I feel so bad about hurting my H more than what I have. I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship.

By the way, are there any statistics on how many married couples are just lingering on in their marriage and not truly satisfied? Doing it out of obligation or other reasons? Are there any statistics on how many married couples still feel truly in love with each other?

S.H.,

There are good reasons to end a marriage, but from what you are describing I'd say your situation is not one of them.

From the outside looking in, I'd say you have a wonderful husband who loves you and your child. You say you've never really loved him like you do OM, but I can only tell you there are so many who have said that before and later recanted.

You need to really address the problems in your marriage that are causing this disconnect between you and your husband. The first thing is to rid your marriage of the OM. You can't possibly realistically look at your marriage with OM waving to you from the sidelines. Whatever effort you make will be stilted, half-hearted, and doomed to fail.

I think some individual counseling for you would be a good thing. You need help getting through this. Don't assume that the thoughts that you are coming up with right now are the right answers to your perceived problems. How many times I have seen people's positions change from black to white on this board, I can't tell you! From being so sure they were deeply in love with OP to realizing it was their spouse they loved all along!

Unless you are the one in a million, and I doubt you are, you need to consider what everyone here is telling you: your marriage may not be the desert you think it is right now. OM might not be the gift you think he is right now.

You want to end your marriage? Go ahead. But if you don't do everything possible to save it, odds are you will come to regret it.

Ask yourself this question: If tomorrow you were to become totally disabled, who would be more likely to be there for you, your OM or your H?. What then of your much vaunted independence?

sh...I am so tired of living my life based on "this is what I am supposed to do" and "this is what I should do"!!! I want to do what I feel like doing!

sufdb...Then do so, no one is stopping you. But then you are allready doing so. You haven't "left" cause you don't want to hurt your H, that is a feeling, and you are acting on it....staying. SH you may not realize this, but you have always done exactly what you want to do, we all do, it is how human beings function. Your issue is a conflict between how you want to feel, and how you do feel. To address those internal paradigms you have to go through a process of re-evaluation of your life, you have to get authentic (the new buzzword for self-actualization). I would suggest Dr. Phil Mcgraws books (I forget name, self matters maybe...but they are popular, and in the bookstore). He does an outstanding job of exaplaining how we make decisions, why we do what we do, and what to do about it when we don't like how we make choices. You should probably do this before you make any more "decisions". Take a sabbatical for a bit, even seperate if that is necessary to avoid distraction, and find out who you are, and what you want out of life, including religious aspects if such are important to you.

sh...Yeah, the statistics are not on my side.

sufdb...Statistics are important to insurance companies and governments, one should not consider such things in relationship choices, other criteria are more important. If we went on statistics no one would get married cause the majority end in divorce, or are unhappy.

sh...Maybe things won't work out if I end up with OM. I feel I could live with that. I feel that I regret it forever if I didn't try.

sufdb...Here is the crux of the problem IMO. Accepting that one can't have gaurantees is appropriate, such is the nature of relationships. But you cannot "try" in the sense this has anything to do with current marriage. You cannot (in a healthy sense) trade someone in for someone else, is impossible, doesn't work. Your marriage has to recover or fail on it's own merits, that means you have to end the other relationship with no expectations, a clean break. And then make a pact with yourself, you will only pursue one relationship at a time, that is the only way IMO to be authentic. And further that you will not pursue any other relationship unless both parties are legitimately available to do so....

If you are uncertain about your marriage, then continue to focus on it until you are sure one way or another, that is the path through the craziness. All affairs must end, no successful relationship can be build upon a decietful foundation, or a running from one to another foundation, like comparing horses or something. By ending the affair, properly resolving your marriage, and if it ends, then if there is anything really possible with this om, you will be able to assess it with a clear head, and conscience. The downfall is just what you said, you will regret not trying, this is a false fear, the trying is not about the om, the trying is about you choosing to live in a healthy manner. If the om is actually worthy he will agree the affair must end, regret the circumstances, and let you go (no contact) to sort out your life. If he won't do that (or you either), neither of you are good marriage material...which is why the statistics say affair based relationships fail, they are selfish. Marital/relationship success is not based on selfish fear.

sh...My H and some friends of ours have all told me to go with my heart and what I feel. They tell me that is the only way I will be able to make the right choice.

sufdb....They are correct to a point, but they can't tell you to go or stay, and your feelings have to be tempered by rational oversight, as I have suggested here. If your H is being honest, it is to his credit he wants you to do what is best for you (while hoping perhaps you choose the marriage), that doesn't mean you necessarily fit well enough to want more than a kinship (but not intimate) relationship with him, but he does want radical honesty from you, and not a settleing.


sh....I want to, but I feel so bad about hurting my H more than what I have. I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship.

sufdb...These are considerations in how one proceeds, but cannot be reasons to remain in intimacy. Intimacy has to be a completely selfish choice. No one wants to be loved or chosen as a duty, or obligation, or to avoid hurt feelings....doesn't work. But these are good reasons to go the extra mile to be sure you are psycholgically healthy, authentic, and fully understand what you are doing. To that end, the individual efforts (counselling, and introspection such as I said re Dr. Mcgraw) need to be accomplished, as well as a fair shake to ones spouse and marital counselling.

sh....By the way, are there any statistics on how many married couples are just lingering on in their marriage and not truly satisfied? Doing it out of obligation or other reasons?

sufdb....Yes, there are, and the numbers are depressing. You should be able to search them out.

sh...Are there any statistics on how many married couples still feel truly in love with each other?

sufdb....There are lots of marital studies, and one can do there own surveys of family friends etc. Many are obviously not happy, and if one looks hard, even many of the "supposedly" happy ones disply some disconcerting behaviours. It use to surprise me here (not anymore, having heard it so often) how often someone posts people thought they had the "perfect" marriage, but little did they now their charming, likable spouse was neglectful, distant, abusive, etc. I really don't know what to make of it. Sometimes I think a good marriage is just impossible, but then you do see a certain number of successfull marriages, where the enviroment is a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place. But such does not just happen IMO, it takes a real effort at understanding yourself, a prospective mate, and healthy human behaviour....then a radically honest assessment of how an intimate relationship would work. If all this is done successfully, a good outcome is likely. The problem is people often put more effort into buying a car than they do in honest assessent of a relationship.

Many marriages aren't happy. Many PEOPLE aren't happy. I don't know why we expect marriages to be "happy" and "successful" when few of the individuals within them are. Are middle-aged single people who have eschewed marriage "happy"? Happier than married people? Not the ones I know.

The problem is, SH, that OM is not the secret recipe to "happiness," though he might look like it at this point. Your feelings for him, even in a marriage, would subside into the normal ups-and-downs of wedded life.

And from what I can tell, EVERYONE threatens their partner with breakup during a bad fight, or fantasizes divorce or life with someone else or at least has regrets about marriage when they are unhappy. This is human nature. You won't find the perfect person for whom this won't be true.

The problem is, in an A, we string together all those low-points to make them part of a new picture, to prove that we were NEVER happy, that it was NEVER going to work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah it's great that you now have a good relationship with him, but look at how his absence negatively affected your personal life as an adult. Do you want to do the same and have your children find themselves in the same situation you find yourself right now?

Guys,
I'm bailing on this post...
I can't take it...and I can't be kind and sugar coaty....

It makes me ill...

And I have no personal bitterness since I haven't (thank God) experienced betrayal on either side...)

sorry people...

marriage is what we create of it..it does not just happen..
and no matter how thick your denial..what exists with your other man is of your creation...it does not exist without you tending to it..withdraw all your energy and nicey nicey words and primping and planning...and it will whither and die....

you act happy and creative and interesting and coy and sexy and all those other things with your OP...and you know it...and withhold those same actions and energies from your spouse...not because your marriage is old..but because you let it get old...

love is NOT a feeling it is an action..
and when we act lovingly...it all falls in to place...and when we spend that action other than within our marriage we reap evil and havoc...

going back and drumming up victim status too choices made is old and done to death....and is a lie...that eases your choices that hurt others deeply and profoundly....

What you risk to teach your children about withdrawing love just because you feel like it is wrong...and will profoundly affect their choices in life...

Is it not ironic that you yourself a product of divorce is the one so willing to walk away...
it's easy to you because that it what you were taught as a child....

This statement makes me want to hold down my head and weep...

I know our kids will miss their Daddy. But hey, I made it thru w/o mine, and now we have a good relationship

It is the same as saying...yeah I was beat as a child..and I came out OK...so I will beat my own children...

I pray you that if you choose this path...that you give sole custody to their father...and YOU visit on weekends when you're not to busy with your little stud-muffin...

I'll even delete it in a bit...but right now I'm gonna go play with my two and four year old...and color a picture for their dad...

ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

S.H.

I'm a FWS who's been through all of the same issues you've described.

One of the greatest epiphanies I had about myself during recovery was that I had tendency to extrapolate my current feeling into the future. I.E. If I didn't feel good at the moment about my marriage, then I would never feel good about my marriage. If I felt great about my OW at the moment, then my future relationship would be great forever as well. This was poppycock, but a bad mental habit I'd fallen into. I sense a lot of this in your posts.

STOP IT NOW!

Just because you marriage is not what you'd like it to be today doesn't mean it won't be different tomorrow. You'll never know if don't try.

Low

S.H.

I tried to tell you that what you are feeling is not real - that it is a fantasy. And that the passion you describe “can” be felt just as strongly for your husband. (CHECK MY 1ST POST). The reason your feelings are not real is they are based on lying and deceit. You and OM lied and deceived your spouse’s. You poor husband was called up to serve his country and his wife couldn’t wait to start and affair and had sex with another guy.

The affair is not like a normal relationship where you openly get to know the other person and get to spend time together. Where the two of you go out in public and go to church and hold hands and talk about what’s going on in your lives and your dreams and aspirations for the future. Where you gradually get to know each other and fall in love – real love.

Instead with an affair you have to lie to spend time together. You have to deceive the people that should be the most important people in your life (husband and children). You have to find someone to keep your kids while you rush to some motel to have sex with the OM. You have to hide the relationship for everyone you know. Don’t you see how unnatural and unreal this type of relationship is?

Further more you have no regrets! You think it is just fine what you have done. And you say you have always done the “right” things all of your life? You need to reexamine your heart and your morals more carefully because what you SAY about yourself and what you are DOING are completely opposite.

Your husband has taken good care of you and the children and made it possible for you to obtain and education and get a good job and you repaid him by lying and cheating on him. And you call yourself a good person? Maybe he is the one that needs to decide if he wants to keep you!

Furthermore, since you’re an adulterer there is no guarantee that you will get to keep your children. You might well find yourself in six months with no husband, no children, no home and no OM because he has left you to go back to his family.

The only person you really care about is yourself. What you feel, what you want, what your needs are. As long as you feel this way there is nothing we can say or do to help you.


Beau

Ark, please don't delete your post. There was nothing bitter or cynical about it. Just the plain and simple truth.

Let's look at reality here. S.H., I know as well as you do that you are going to do what you want, no matter what me, your H, or anyone here says. We all know you are going to ignore every piece of advice that has been given you, because "you know better, you know that you are different". You are like that little 2 year old whose mother and father tell him/her repeatedly not to put their hand on the top of the stove. You're going to do, if for no other reason to see what all the fuss is about. And while you may not burn your hand the first time, sooner or later you will get burned. It's just a matter of when and how badly. The worst part is, you know of the pain you are inflicting on your H and children, but believe they will be ok because you are happy. After all, if you're happy, they must be happy, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I hope you will keep posting here, I hope you will eventually learn something. Perhaps you might take the time to seek out some of the FWS's (former wayward spouses) and get their perspective. Could be a real eye-opener for you....

MTD

edited to add:
P.S. You said something about the statistics about people staying in unhappy, unfulfilling marriages. You probably won't find any. People in marriages like that usually end up D'ed, and no more happier than when they were married (usually ever less happy), or they find out what is wrong with their M and FIX IT!!!

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

^^^^