Hello

It has been mentioned to me here and also our MFC has said that I was not "in love" with the OW but rather I was "in love" with the feeling of being in love. I have seen many books written on the subject of love,but have never picked one up to read. I realize that I must have some "wires crossed" but I do not know how to sort it out. I admit to being confused but I don't know how to "unconfuse me". It is frightening for me because I always thought I knew what love is. I know the II Cor. definition of "love" and I can say yup I understand that and we have what is often called "romantic love" and I thought I understood that as well. Now I don't trust what I think or feel when it comes to love or other stuff.

I know I am mourning the loss of relationship of the OW additionally I recognize the pain and suffering I have inflicted upon my W. I feel very fortunate that W still loves me and wants to rebuild our marriage. I feel that if I don't understand this most basic concept that we cannot rebuild or develop complete intamacy(another flawed concept in my little brain,I better learn how it spell it first).

I "feel" (yikes) that we love people forever. That just because someone dies or leaves we don't stop or maybe even can stop loving them. Most children love their parents no matter who or what they are and even though they might have been unloveable or not deserving of our love we "gave" it to them anyway.

At 56 1/2 I am not sure I have time to relearn what I missed somewhere along the line. I know there are no simple answers, shoot maybe all get lucky and someone will have a simple answer.
H

Hiker,

I am not your MC so I can't explain what he said, you pay him $ you should get clarification from him. This is my 2¢ about your feeling to OW.

Was the feeling real ?, you bet !. You were in-love ! The feeling of losses is real, it feel like broken heart. Now what are you in-love to is the question. Are you really in-love w/ OW as a person or are you in-love to the fantasy (what could be in your mind) with OW ?. Most A broke up b/c it couldn't withstand the truth ... the fantasy doesn't match with the reality of the OP itself.

How your A ended ?

-rh-

Hiker,

This is a great question. This leads to an important part of your truth.

You have said that you loved your OW and love your wife. This is causing you consternation for several reasons, among them (I think) that nobody here will validate your love for your OW because it is contextualized in an extramarital relationship.

Listen to yourself, not others, about what love is. A better question might be "How do I love?". Study things you do/did rather than the feelings. The feelings are important, but you have to come to some awareness of the way in which you follow them.

This is about you, not about your wife or OW.

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hiker:
<strong> At 56 1/2 I am not sure I have time to relearn what I missed somewhere along the line. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure, and if it's important enough to you, you can relearn, or learn anew. My H is 55, and has probably learned more about himself, communication, his own emotions and motivations, in the last 12 months than in the previous 54 years. It hasn't been easy for him, hasn't been easy for me to go through it with him. But he made the decision that keeping our marriage was important enough for him to rethink his entire frame of reference.

He made significant changes between his first marriage and ours. He's made more changes recently. So yeah, you can reshape your life if you want it badly enough. I am so extraordinarly proud of the work H has done, and know that even if something happened to our relationship, he has reached a better place for himself.

RedH,
The A ended when the OW said "I can't do this anymore" and that was it. Then about 1 month later my W discovered the A.
Thanks Term.
I've tried to expalin tat to my wife. It's about me and not her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen to yourself, not others, about what love is. A better question might be "How do I love?". Study things you do/did rather than the feelings. The feelings are important, but you have to come to some awareness of the way in which you follow them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is always good to hear from you because you give me so much to think about.

And Ks41

I was being a wise guy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I hope that my wife can say the same in a year about me

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Hiker ]</small>

Hiker,

I enjoy your posts and it's therapeutic to answer them because you're a man who is trying, and is teachable. I need evidence that such men exist.

As damaging to me as anything else in my affair was X-MM's inability to be introspective and deal with feelings. Of all the good reasons to end the affair, that was my selfish one--it was a tremendously freeing act to ditch a relationship because it was arid and defective in that way. To just say, "Feh!! Go be whoever you are; I'm not interested any more in waiting and watching for you to reveal yourself. Even if you weren't married you wouldn't be enough."

So now his wife gets to deal with him. I truly do wish them well.

Sorry for the digression, but it must have needed to be said.

Hey term

I think you still made a connection here. Because in my search to be "loveable" I was determined to be totaly me with the OW so if she was going to love me it was really going to be "me" and not some facsimile.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As damaging to me as anything else in my affair was X-MM's inability to be introspective and deal with feelings </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I performed some great self "autopsies" for her as well as revealing my deepest feelings. I really had nothing to lose, what could she do? Kick me out of the house? Out of that came this bond that I wonder if I will ever escape.

All my life I've hid or adapted the the wishes and beliefs of others just so I could be "loved". I became so good at it that I even fooled myself into thinking that's who I was. Recently I've been able to assert myself and be a little more of me.

I know I will remove all of my "inerds" lay them on the table and re-examen what is there. I have been on this quest to come up with the new and improved me. It is difficult for me to accept that I am usable just the way I am

For some life seems to be so simple. For others it is a battle. I guess I was ment to fight my way through this. I do want to learn. I do want to understand.
H

So...one question you might ask is why were you willing to take that risk with OW? and not W?

How can you say (as in other posts) that the love you felt for OW was a fantasy and the love you feel for W is real? I think you have to re-cast that whole notion. Both are real. Until you acknowledge that they are (having both come from you) you will feel 'split'.

About taking the risk of laying yourself bare in this relationship with OW: what did that represent? an escape? an opportunity? did you think W was not interested but OW was? did you trust OW more? what was it that made you do it? did you just recognize on some level that OW was 'like you' and were compelled on that basis?

See, this is scary. But I admire you for going on the quest.

Term

It was easy to be open with the OW because I had nothing to lose... she wouldn't kick me out of the house.

No I do think the love I felt/feel fot the OW is real. But the relationship was a fantasy because we had no where to go with it. She wasn't going to give up her marriage,children etc. As she said when she ended the A, "we've gone as far as we can go", "the guilt is too much for me to bear".

About opening up to OW. All my life I hid the real me from others including my W because I felt I wouldn't be acceptable as the real me. With the OW if I showed her who I really was and was rejected I wouldn't have lost that much, if she accepted me then I had won the lottery and confirmation from at least one person thought that was OK. I didn't like me and am still struggeling with me... There is much more to say but I have to go.
As Always you help me to think and learn I like that.
H

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hiker:
<strong> Term

It was easy to be open with the OW because I had nothing to lose... she wouldn't kick me out of the house.

No I do think the love I felt/feel fot the OW is real. But the relationship was a fantasy because we had no where to go with it. She wasn't going to give up her marriage,children etc. As she said when she ended the A, "we've gone as far as we can go", "the guilt is too much for me to bear".

About opening up to OW. All my life I hid the real me from others including my W because I felt I wouldn't be acceptable as the real me. With the OW if I showed her who I really was and was rejected I wouldn't have lost that much, if she accepted me then I had won the lottery and confirmation from at least one person thought that was OK. I didn't like me and am still struggeling with me... There is much more to say but I have to go.
As Always you help me to think and learn I like that.
H </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am confused, what do you mean by losing if you reveal your "real" self? Do you mean your wife wouldn't love you, and ask you to leave? If so, so what? Usually the reason people are not forthright is a history of conflict when doing so, that is conflict avoidance and makes a kind of sense....but fear you won't be liked, that I cannot understand...how is better to have a spouse who you think is only with you cause they don't know the real you? Frankly, that is worse than any affair ever could be IMO. It is a sort of an affair with yourself, secrets and all. Far better to find out the truth, and get it over with so you don't live with the fear you wouldn't really be liked, seems to me. There is literally nothing to lose. You find out she likes you anyways, or you find out your fears were correct, and you live by yourself, but honestly, not by tricking someone into being with you. Either outcome is better than living deceptively.

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb,
I will try to give you the RDV(readers digest version)

What has complicated my life is that I am an ACA(Adult Child of an Alcoholic) There are lots of books out there with the characteristics that are common to people like me(Adult Children of Alcoholics by Janet Woititz). One of the characteristics is that we have difficulty with intimate relationships and we simply do not know how to have healthy intimate relationships. We fear them and do not let anyone in. Part of the fear is the unknown. Tied to our history is the constant "hiding" that goes on in a household like ours. Hiding what’s going on, hiding from others, hiding emotions and on and on. We become very good at it so good it becomes second nature to us. Another characteristic is that we lie when it is just as easy to tell the truth. Put this all together with someone who is willing to listen, show acceptance, and love makes for a deadly combination. I could risk, it took me 56 years, with the OW and not lose too much. The other part is if I felt my W to be judgmental then I would withhold from her what was going on within me. I know it is difficult for someone who might be on the outside. The good news is that I have come to "know" all of this and I am focused on building a complete relationship with my wife.

H

Hiker

So many of us guys don’t have a clue as to what we feel. We are taught from childhood to stuff our feeling and not cry or show our emotions. So, the question: “what is love” leaves a lot of us unable to answer. I too have thought about love for quiet a while and have come to an understanding that goes like this.

What we really desire is to have someone care about us more than anyone else in this world. We want to feel that we are of ultimate importance to at least one other human being. We want to feel that there is always that person who cares about the way we are feeling and concerned with our wellbeing. The person that feels that way about us has made a conscious decision to “love” us.

When we “love” someone, we have decided that they are the person that we care about above anyone else. That person is of ultimate importance in our life and we desire to always be there for them and to be concerned about their feelings and their wellbeing.

In our youth love is about desire and lust. But as those feeling fade we begin to realize that life would not be nearly as sweet if we didn’t have the person we “love” in our life and we can’t imagine life without them.

For me love is about commitment and concern and caring for just one special person. If we are very lucky the person we “love” also “loves” us back.

Beau

SonoWF

I think your definition is limiting us to one "special love" for a lifetime. I believe that we can love more than one person in a lifetime. An example would be someone who's spouse dies and then finds someone new and remarries. I don't think that the love for the first ever diminishes it is that the person is "no longer with us".

We can allow ourselves to get into situations where we may "fall in love" with OP. I am not trying to justify the action but to say that it is possible. I think much of it has to do with our pasts, our home environment and the models we had as we grew up. Furthermore other relationships may have influenced our perception of the world of relationships.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me love is about commitment and concern and caring for just one special person. If we are very lucky the person we “love” also “loves” us back</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What happens if they don't love us back? Are we then incapable or not permitted to finding someone to share our love? Or are they stuck with us since we love them?

I believe that we can develop the love needed to fulfill the needs of others. They give us reason to love them and we hopefully give them reason to love us in return. Dr.Harley refers to this as our "love banks". We have to dicover ways to keep them full and to continue to replenish our accounts with more love units.
H

Hiker:

I agree completely that we can love more than one person. I was responding from the perspective of a husband’s love for his wife.

Beau

I know that we have different kinds of "love" depending on whom we share our love. Do we have an "endless" supply or are we only given so much to share? It didn't occur to me that the love that I have might be finate. Is God the only one who has an endless supply and we mere mortals have a limited supply and should be careful with whom we spend it on? I know that I am having to reach into the depths of my soul to once again discover that emotion. Perhaps it is because of the grief process that I feel so empty. I do hope it will return to me.
H

Hiker,

Maybe the following thread (on the nature of love) will give some insight and answers on your questions. Hope it will be helpful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=012896

Suzet

Suzet

Very helpful thanks
H

I have been trying to "fight" several battles within myself and perhaps the greatest is what do I do with these "left over" feelings I have for the OW. She(OW) doesn't want them and my W doesn't understand them and truthfully I struggle with knowing why there is so much turmoil within me. But I have come up with the Hiker theory and you may want to take some shots or and replies as the case may be.

When I met my W to be over 35 years ago I became very involved in the process that we often call "falling in love". I did my very best to cast myself in the very best light possible. I worked at "cleaning up my act". I did this to please her because I "wanted her". I wanted her to love me, I wanted her to want to be with me, I wanted to make her happy. I gave it my whole effort. I changed who I was because I didn’t' think I was acceptable to her the way I was. If she saw me the way I knew me she wouldn't love me. This was easy for me to do because this was one of the techniques I used with my friends. This was how I became acceptable to my friends and family.

W and I became very active at building the "perfect" marriage". She didn't want what her parents had nor did I want to repeat the scenario that I was experienced as a child. We poured our lives into our education, careers, church and raising these perfect creatures called children. But we neglected the glue necessary to keep it all together. We thought we were sharing but we were sharing in the tasks of life and not the tasks of a relationship. We felt communication was good but we were communicating on the necessities of life and not the building blocks of love. Since we shared so much and understood each other so well we did not see that what we began building in the initial stages of courting and our early married life we had set aside to do the necessities of life.

I think what happened was not too much unlike what takes place in many homes. We start a love relationship and think that once the fire has been started that it has enough fuel to last a life time.

Even though I had these feelings that could have lead into an A early in our married life I ignored them and was able to live without going in that direction. I dismissed them as "guy" feelings and these just weren't the kind of things one shared with his W.

The process I/we went through can be compared to those of us who have found ourselves on the "up" side of a scale. One day we wake up and we are fat. I wanted to be "thin" again but I didn't want to lose the weight at 2lbs or less per week. I wanted it off now. I "looked" over at my wife and realized that she was a long way off and here was someone who was so very close without all the battle scars and knowledge of my imperfections.

This time I wasn't that 22 year old college student I was now this "mature man" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> full of "wisdom" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (duh). Now with much more power and direction and able to be the real me(what a load). If OW was going to love me it was going to have to be for me not what I was going to change into like I did when I was 22. Then came the biggest of all surprises. She did love me. Or at least I thought she did and I think that she thought she loved me too.

But this time there were no battles to fight together. There would be no children to struggle with or small paychecks to just get by on. Then OW realized that we went as far as we could go and all that was left would be to destroy what we had built in our individual marriages we had spent a lifetime building.

So I was left like so many other wayward spouses holding a handful of sand desperately trying to keep it from running between our fingers. Suddenly the sand castle was just a memory, the day was over and we had to return home to reality. Now it was going to take a long time to get all the sand out of our lives. We would be able to wash much of it off our bodies but we continue to find these little grains here and there. Just when we thought we are clean we would rediscover a handful or perhaps just a grain. Finding it impossible to drive by the ocean and see the sand where the castle once stood it was easier to avoid those places even ignore that it even existed but the ocean is to vast. Admitting to it ever being there is difficult because the evidence is to great.

Dear BS's please try to understand the weight your S is trying to shoulder. They know that you have been crushed and long to have them back as they once were. They want to empty there souls of the sands of their past but somehow these grains keep appearing sometimes in the most unlikely of places. Of course I can only speak for myself but I think many find themselves in my place. Thank you for loving us, in return you have our love.
H