How do you know when to end the marriage? What needs to be going on to make one say, Enough is enough!

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: Lovely ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DIAMOND GIRL:
I have not been 100% honest with him yet here I am judging him. I can justify my actions til the end of days but can't find any valid excuse for his. Does this make me a hypocrite? I don't feel my actions are a threat to our R the way his actions are a threat.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes, you are a hypocrite.

and your actions are a threat.

think for a moment about the possible outcomes of telling your husband about your affair.

1. he divorces you.
2. he decides to stay and rebuild your marriage.

in your own words, you feel you are at the end of your rope ... that divorce is a likely outcome based on how you feel right now. but you also seem to want to keep your marriage.

now look again at numbers 1 and 2. i agree there's lots to lose -- but you've already decided that that's the conclusion you believe you're headed toward.

so it seems with this scenario that you have everything to gain by coming clean, yes? (if someone gave you fifty-fifty odds on winning powerball would you take them? of course you would.)

now look at the outcomes if you decide to continue your charade.

1. you and your husband divorce.
2. you stay married but solve nothing because dishonesty is a barrier to intimacy -- AND IT IS A BARRIER TO INTIMACY.

where is the upside in this second scenario? there isn't one.

Plan B now.

He is cake eating. It will NEVER help to cake eat.

Look at my posts on Want My Wife Back's thread.

Shut him down from getting a fix from both of you. Send the Plan B letter (and we can give you examples to use to make your own) and then go dark. You are ENABLING him.

The answer to your question on when do you know it is over...you WILL know. If there is a question in your mind, it probably isnt over.

Both of you have screwed up. There is NO justification for either of your actions. You are two married people, and neither of you have conducted yourself as such.

He is being totally selfish and totally disrespectful of you. Stop it now. Go to Plan B immediately.

In His arms.

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Just a word to the wise: don't believe anything he says. He says you will always be his wife? Rubbish. He said something entirely different two months ago. Two months from now, he will be saying something different again. If you listen to his words, you will be psychologically bouncing all over the map.

He doesn't have a plan. He is reacting to temporary emotional enthusiasms. You have to have a plan.

how can there be a 'plan anything' if she won't abide by radical honesty?? how can she set boundaries on her husband when she's hiding her own affair??

Diamond Girl -

I mean NO disrepect by this post - just some tough love....

Now is the time for YOU to decide what YOU want.

You don't have a whole lot of time left to make the decision.

Do you want to stay married????

If so, then:
1. Go NC with your OM
2. Tell your H about your A and then WORK to make you a better person that your H will want to be with.

If not, then:
1. Do as you are doing.

Two weeks ago you asked us for advice but didn't take it.

Now you are back here asking again for more advice. Do you think our advice will change? It's still the same advice....are you gonna take this challenge????

DB

DG you said that he views you as someone who would never do what he did, and so he feels that he can be a cake eater because the little woman will wait faithfully for his return like Penelope for Odyseus. Now imagine, what a blow to his mr macho ego to realize that you are just as human as he is, and that if he continues his affair with the OW, that he WILL lose you for good and that you will move on with your life with this OM or with another.

DG at this point in time you have much more to gain than to lose.

Hey...

Whippit and Db raised a good point. You must get everything out on the table before going to Plan B. Everything must be told.

If not, this will never work. None of it. At the end of Plan B, the goal is to start a new marriage, one that is healthier and better. That cannot happen until the old marriage is dealt with. And it cant be dealt with until everything is laid out at the table.

Both of you are seriously disrespecting the other. BOTH of you are the problem. One of you had better step up to the plate and change...because this marriage is about to explode.

Diamond...time to do the right thing, before it is truly too late. Sit him down, tell him everything, tell him what you want. If he doesnt want to leave OW and try to work on the marriage, then immediately go to Plan B. In the meantime, no more men for you! NONE! You are a married woman...conduct yourself as such until you are no longer married. You dont want the marriage? Well then, you know where the courthouse is.

If you want it, you will only get a marriage that will last if you go thru these steps. </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get it all on the table.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lay out your plan for reconciliation...which includes NC with all people other than your spouse...that goes for him too!</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Immediate counseling for both of you</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Write a NC letter to your OM now, no matter what your husband does</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your husband, after hearing about your betrayal, doesnt want to end the affair he is having or work on the marriage...then you write the PBL, send it...and go dark until something happens (reconciliation or divorce).</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Diamond...you are running out of time. Like was stated above, your odds may be 50-50 right now. But, with time, they will only get worse unless you stop this.

So far, both of you have been acting like teenagers. You look at him, and say he has done "worse" than you. It's like two pigs trying to decide who is dirtier. Who cares? Both are dirty.

Clean yourself up. Show some respect for yourself by ending your affair, being honest with your husband...and doing what it takes to save your marriage...or end it.

Time to grow up Diamond.

In His arms.

DG:
Sorry but I just realized that I didn't answer the question in the topic line:

How do you know when to give up?

You give up when you can HONESTLY look yourself in the mirror and HONESTLY say that you have HONESTLY done the best you HONESTLY can to save your marriage.

Can you do this right now?
DB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DIAMOND GIRL:
<strong> How do you know when to end the marriage? What needs to be going on to make one say, Enough is enough!

How does one make this judgement when they are so emotionally biased? Things have lately headed south for me and my H. His recent trip has reignited previous fading feelings for OW. Says" he feels he NEEDS to venture out (with her) for himself. To find out for himself. Then turns around and says I can't help it, I love you both. Says he's torn. Needs a change. Needs to bond with OC. But no matter what happens, this is always going to be my home. You'll always be my wife. I will never divorce you. It's not like I'm never coming back! You'll be on my mind everyday. I have alot of love for both of you. She knows I love you too. She understands. She knows I'll be calling you all the time."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DG, Either he's gone off to the West Desert of Utah and joined up with Tom Green's trailer-court fundamentalist religion (Tom Green's in prison for bedding 14 year olds; has six wives - all of which were under 18 when he married them), so he believes that two women are perfectly fine sharing one man...

Or he thinks no one else wants you.

I'm with TMCM - you have nothing to lose by disclosing your own affair. It may burst his little bubble that you'll wait for him and share him because you have no other options.

At the same time, girlfriend, I'm wondering where your self esteem is at, since you must have contributed to his idea that you'll endure any and all put downs and abuses for his most inflated ego - pfhaw! It's time to burst his flatulence that two women find him irresistable while he's openly philandering and cheating on both of them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DG:

I respect you as an honestly confused BS/WS looking for answers. Having said that, I can't figure out why I keep posting 2 you. You've ignored every post of mine 2 your other threads. At the same time, I'm nobody special. My "advice" should be taken with a grain of salt just like any of us non-professionals here. My best advice for you is 2 get in2 counseling. NOW. You're not even asking the right 2uestion. It's not "when do I give up?" it's "why can't I let go?" If you think about it, you'll realize that "giving up" is not an end. You'll have that ton of emotional baggage you're carrying around for the rest of your life. "Letting go", on the other hand, is LIBERATION.

You need 2 let go of the things that are hurting you emotionally:

♣resentment of your H's A and OC
♣the need 2 have any control of what your H does.
♣the need 2 keep your SECRET, which is just as harmful 2 you and your H as his A is.
♣the damned DRAMA of all of this.

Be honest and truthful with your H. He deserves that much. And so do you. You have no idea how liberating it will be for YOU 2 be honest with your loved ones.

"How do you know when to end the marriage? What needs to be going on to make one say, Enough is enough!"

You're looking for a "level of drama" that's "over the top" so that you can feel justified for ending your M. I'm not going 2 answer that, because it's the wrong 2uestion for you 2 ask.

"Things have lately headed south for me and my H. His recent trip has reignited previous fading feelings for OW."

Just as you experienced whenever you were alone with your OM. What did you expect your H 2 do? I wish he had known about your A before he left. He probably wouldn't have left. My prediction, which we'll never know whether it was right or wrong. Like whippit said, though, it could go one of 2 ways. And in most cases like this, the WS would not choose 2 end the M, because they almost universallly will choose not 2 choose. It's part of the script. You continue 2 postpone any chance of real progress in ANY direction by witholding your secret from your H.

"Says" he feels he NEEDS to venture out (with her) for himself. To find out for himself. Then turns around and says I can't help it, I love you both. Says he's torn. Needs a change. Needs to bond with OC. But no matter what happens, this is always going to be my home. You'll always be my wife. I will never divorce you. It's not like I'm never coming back! You'll be on my mind everyday. I have alot of love for both of you. She knows I love you too. She understands. She knows I'll be calling you all the time."

You need 2 push him off the fence. GET COUNSELING. Tell him about your A. End your A. Be the person of integrity, love, and devotion that you want him 2 be. Set the best example for him and your children that you want them 2 follow. Follow the MB plans. And be patient.

"He'll find out soon enough the mistake he made."

He'll figure this out sooner if he knows the mistake YOU made. Not telling him prolongs this insidious drama. It's making you ill, and you know it.

"Once he leaves this time, there's no going back for us. Then I read about other posters whose H's have left and come back several times."

And those have 2 be considered on an individual basis. My W never left, and we STILL lived through a lot of the self-inflicted dramatic nonsense that many people who have done what you read about have gone through. And it only started 2 change for us when I chose 2 LET GO OF THE DRAMA.

"What about the kids??? How can I allow my kids to be exposed to this??"

They already have. How do you propose 2 repair the damage that has already been done? What about the damage that's ongoing? What about the fu2re?

"There is no way I could accept him back right? Even though I still love him?? What would have to happen to make coming back acceptable??"

ALL of these 2uestions are entirely up 2 you 2 find the answers 2. Nobody can answer them for you.

"Right now he is being totally honest with me about his feelings, regardless of how real those feeling are, to him they are REAL and even though I don't like what he's saying, he IS being honest."

And I respect his honesty. He's honestly confused, as are you.

"I have not been 100% honest with him yet here I am judging him. I can justify my actions til the end of days but can't find any valid excuse for his. Does this make me a hypocrite?"

Is a duck's butt waterproof? Of course you're a hypocrite! But you could stop being one by simply telling him the truth.

"I don't feel my actions are a threat to our R the way his actions are a threat."

Ask him if he agrees. I doubt he will. But, more importantly, WHY do you feel this way? I find it surprising, considering what you've learned so far on the boards.

"I'm telling him that that's how I must deal with this is to think of it as permanent, I can't hold onto hope of him coming back but I KNOW he will want to. He is not allowing himself time to grieve over our R. He thinks he can maintain both I guess?? Why do I still love him and envision so many happy future memories with him?? Why do I feel as if everything ends with him??? Why do I define myself through him?? In my mind I keep saying that I will avoid him, ignore his calls until he gives up. I fear confrontation. That's why he STILL thinks I'm the sweet angel at home and that's why I don't have the nerve to tell him once he leaves he can never come back. Probably because I'm not so sure myself if that's what I'll do. Maybe it's just easier for me to avoid him and his calls until he gives up trying - and he WILL give up eventually. Everything that gets hard for him, he gives up - quits - stops trying as hard. Like our marriage?"

This whole paragraph made me very sad. It's so like what every one of us here goes through in our minds at one time or another. Again, I urge you, STRONGLY, 2 seek the help of a professional. There is so much that you have revealed in that one paragraph about what you're feeling that's SO familiar that it's scary. Remembering when I felt those things, I remember also how impossible it is for someone feeling that way 2 get ANYWHERE until they change that line of thinking. If you won't go in2 counseling, please read and re-read all about the MB plans. Pay particularly close attention 2 the sections that describe how you need 2 take care of yourself and your children before you can hope 2 recover your broken M. You need 2 be an emotionally healthy human being anyway, so why not work on it now in the context of rebuilding your M?

I hope I didn't put you off in the first sentence this time. Again, I don't expect you 2 follow any of my advice or even 2 respond 2 me at all. I just hope that some of what I have said is of some use 2 you.

-2long

too sad

<small>[ February 08, 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Lovely ]</small>

well said, 2long. well said.

DG,

Your OM gives me the absolute creeps. He goes after his best friend's girl friends? and now wife?

Dear, your self esteem MUST be in the toilet to give this guy the time of day.

You're defintely a pawn in his sick game. You'd better tell, because if you don't, he will, just to twist the knife on his "best friend" again.

You may well be right. Time to go rent the video "Sweet Charity" - because you've been used for the last time, the minute you break through this fog and realize that neither man is worthy of you.

DG, sometimes it's better to be single for a while until you know who you are and what you are worth.

DG:

COOL! You saw my post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

"OM and H are close - like brothers. So close they call each other brothers. OM has hurt H in the past with past GF's by doing the same thing. Everytime H found out, he ended it with the girl, fought with OM but they would always make up and move on."

This says a lot about their "friendship." Your H is better off learning the truth. He needs 2 decide whether this "friend" is more important 2 him than his family. He'd be a fool 2 think so.

"I know this is all my H would need to hear to push him straight to OW even faster than he's going now."

This statement is ALL ABOUT DRAMA. This is the kind of mental masturbation you need 2 jettison. Replace it with thoughts like "what do I love about my H?" or "What are my redeeming qualities that I can take in2 my fu2re, improved M with my H, or with another partner if we can't rebuild?"

"H told me the other day he had a dream me and OM were "together" and he walked in on it. This came about because he woke up in a pissed off mood and I'm like what's wrong? Tell me tell me! Then he says that. He says it with his arms folded, eyebrows wrinkled, wouldn't even look at me. I asked him why he would dream about that. Said he was just having bad thoughts about what I would do after he leaves."

I suppose there's a snowball's chance in the fyring pan of Haydes that I'm wrong, but I think your H knows you're having an A with this twit that professes 2 be his friend.

"Maybe I'm just like my H because I'm taking the easy road out. I will tell him - after he leaves. The way I see it, if he leaves, we couldn't go back anyway. So this info will seal the deal."

More drama coreogrphay. Stop this! Either tell him because it's the right, HONEST and TRUTHFUL thing 2 do, or don't tell him because you don't mind being a liar. You're making up scenarios and even playing them out in your head, apparently 2 satisfy yourself that you're making the right decisions - that his "wrong" is worse than yours. You're never going 2 be able 2 heal until you give this up... ...I mean, LET IT GO!

"He does think no one else wants me. His attitude has eaten at my self esteem all these years. I almost believe him too."

And it's entirely up 2 you whether you want 2 continue 2 believe that you aren't wanted. You know different. At least 2 men "want you", only they don't want YOU, they want how you make them FEEL. For a while.

DG, you are better than this. You are better than this because you are a human being just like the rest of us.

Claim your birthright!
-2long