Me again! He moved back, unexpectedly this week? We had talked about maybe him moving to a family members house (I thought is was a great suggestion from his IC), but there he was on Sunday, stating he left her (The OW) and wanted to be with me (AGAIN, WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD NUMEROUS TIMES!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I was so apprehensive, but he always seems so genuine and "I" so weak and pathetic. I allow myself to be convenience and deep inside I still want us to work. Not to mention how do you say "NO" to someone who for almost 10 years treated you like a princess?

But then, on our way to the movies last night, we unexpectedly took his car and I found a note addressed to her, which it started off by "OW, I Love you and yes more than Marilyn, I am with her because of empathy.........." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> That's all I could read before he tore it out of my hands and ripped it up! I told him that after 15 months I finally understood what marriage builders meant by Plan B, it WAS a protection from his acts tearing the last drips left in my Love Bank from him, <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and that now I fear it's all gone! He stated that those were only words on paper that he didn't send it or talk to her! But his feeling for her where there, such passion, such care. It’s only been four days and he is already beginning to seek her out. And I am the empathy case? We have no children, no mortgage, nothing together, what empathy? I know in my heart this hasn’t ended with her and I just can’t continue to do this. He is to weak to fight for us and I’m to distraught to continue. This morning I found a card from him on my car, stating that “he’s sorry and he loves me even if I don’t love him, that he has enough love for both of us, to please not let him go!”

God I need help! I feel hopeless and so very lost! Please anyone any advice?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Marilyn

ME-BS(34) WS(42) Been together almost 10 years
OW (41) Ex-Coworker, Divorced, No Children
D-Day - 8/27/02 when we returned from a trip to Cancun!
D-Day #2 - April 03 same OW
I Moved away 5/03 he followed and left several times to be with her
Moved back 8/03 we try and he continues to leave.
11/03 end of my rope! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: onebreathatatime ]</small>

On 11/3 you said you were at the end of your rope now here on 11/7 he's back? He should be on the end of a rope somewhere. It isn't productive to say you coulda shoulda. All you needed was one line of that letter to know what his intentions are... Every time you get weak, like when he tries to be nice or sends another card remember that letter. Love bank ? This guy is running on empty. Geeze I wish all I needed to do to prove myself was to give my wife a card. What is this "He has enough love for both of us" is he watching some old black and whites somewere? Try this line on him "Show me the Money!" You are far more valuable than what he is offering. He wants to move back because you are closer to her and living away took away some of his cash flow and his ability to spend it on her. Believe me "I am him", when I wrote similar words on paper I ment them and they were not to my W but to the OW.
H

Hiker,

Why? Why all the betrayals, lies? It so unnecessary, SHE is actually the one in better financial position than I? She is the one that makes him feel special, loved, wanted and desired. Told by him these things are very important to him and he believes I stopped loving him more than a year ago! I stated that November 2003 I feel hopeless, he's been back since Monday and is going through withdrawals, how does one deal with that? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wants to move back because you are closer to her and living away took away some of his cash flow and his ability to spend it on her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did you mean by this?

God, I have so many questions for WS's. Such as why do you even "try" with BS when you keep leaving to be with the OW/OM? Why even bother to but energy into lying, IF whom you want to be with is the OP, nothing is stopping the BS from doing so? Why hurt someone who has been your BEST friend, family, confidant for so many years? How can someone look at themselves in a mirror and do they even remember all the pain they've caused?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Marilyn

ME-BS(34) WS(42) Been together almost 10 years
OW (41) Ex-Coworker, Divorced, No Children
D-Day - 8/27/02 when we returned from a trip to Cancun!
D-Day #2 - April 03 same OW
I Moved away 5/03 he followed and left several times to be with her
Moved back 8/03 we try and he continues to leave.
11/03 end of my rope!

Just wondering, if a WS can answer these questions. or help me with what is going through his head. SHould I take anything coming out of his mouth, as real? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by onebreathatatime:
<strong> Just wondering, if a WS can answer these questions. or help me with what is going through his head. SHould I take anything coming out of his mouth, as real? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer:

No. His mouth holds lies. He is too screwed up at the moment to know any truths about himself or his life. His remains a very high risk individual when it comes to being a "safe spouse".


What difference does it make "what is going through his head" ....???? It is jibber-jabber. He is emotionally directed and not principle directed. His feelings are all about "who I want to be with" .... and this is is going to change with every emotional breeze.

He is not concerned with who he is becoming as a man .... just which woman will reflect a positive image of himself.

Neither of you will fill the bill .... because he doesn't like himself.

What do YOU want? Of all the options available to you right now. Pick one that suits you.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepperband,
I know.....I Know <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> !

Gosh everything in my heart tells me a BIG Plan Bis waiting for me, not for him, but me. It's not really a plan b with hope, you know what I mean. This insanity or living as though I'm in a lifetime miniseries is killing me slowly. When I send him away it kills me to know that after all the years he helped me and looked out for me, I can't help him! I now wonder was he helping me or was it just me remembering the past through rose color afterthoughts. I just can't imagine my life without him, but my life, heart and head are such a mess right now that I know I can't help him and I need to start living for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do YOU want? Of all the options available to you right now. Pick one that suits you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For life to get better, that the loneliness may disappear and that a bit of happiness re-enter my life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

ONEBREATH,

Don't feel bad.I did the same three times. I think I was living on yesterdays. My H will never be the same. Last time he left he took most of our money from the checking account. For me the alone hurts less then the lies. I'm slowly learning to be alone. I'm not angry any more just numb. It's also less trama on the kids, better to be gone than bounce back and forth.Take care of your self. And take one day at a time.

Wish you well,

Kathy

Likewise Kathy, and thank you. It's nice to know that someone wishes me well!

Again Thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Marilyn

Hi OneBreath...

As a FWH, I'd like to offer my opinion. Now, I never left my wife...I stayed with her after D-Day, because that was where I knew I should be. But I can kind of relate to what might be going on in H's head.

It's all a power trip. Plain and simple.

Now this isn't going to sound really nice, and it may not be what you want to hear, but I think all he's thinking about right now is HIMSELF. Not you, not OW, nobody....but HIMSELF.

He likes how he can feel important, and control your feelings, by moving in and out of your life. He's getting off on controlling both you and OW. He feels like the most powerful man in the world. "Oh, man", he's thinking, "I can treat 'em like sh*t, and they still take me back! I must be SOME STUD!"

If you confront him about this he'll deny it, emphatically; to admit it would be to lose some of his power, and that's the last thing he wants to do.

You need to recognize this, and stop letting him CONTROL YOU and YOUR FEELINGS. Stop being his puppet. It's like with kids....if you tell them "This is the last time I'm going to warn you" 30 times a day, then they soon realize you don't mean it. If you tell H that he's not allowed back until he makes on honest effort and goes a certain time period, on his own, without contacting OW, but then take him back when he hasn't met the criteria, then you're just enabling his behavior.

Take back the control. Refuse to be a game piece in his little game. Redefine the rules of the game; or, better yet, refuse to play at all.

Just my opinion.

Oscar

WOW Oscar! I know what you state is completely true, but I look at him and wonder Is he just lost? Is it the withdrawals? Do "I" have withdrawals (can't be?)too?

Can he be so cruel, or is it that he's just lost his mind? My mother (who is also my best friend, since we are only 17 years apart) use to feel so horrible for him, thought that he and I were just going through a very rough patch (since she herself went through it), but since he has taken this back and forth approach, she has been recently telling that "he is a [censored] and that when he cries, that those are alligator tears " But I can't imagine HOW, WHY, WHEN someone can just change so much? Or was this him all along and I was just blind?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by onebreathatatime:


For life to get better, that the loneliness may disappear and that a bit of happiness re-enter my life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How good are you at accepting life on life's terms?

Are you currently "waiting" for life to get better, and when it does, you can feel happiness?

Did you know there is happiness available to you right now? Every day there is some blessing, all you have to do is to be available.

Today, I cried. I really cried hard. Then I found some joy in other things.

Stop waiting for happiness to find you. Find yours today.

Love,

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi Again One Breath,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I look at him and wonder Is he just lost? Is it the withdrawals? Do "I" have withdrawals (can't be?)too? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll start backwards...

"Do I have withdrawals too?" Yeah, I would bet you do. You've been in a long relationship, you're still in love, and you want things the way they were before. But they're not ever going to be the way they were before. They may be better, they may be "as good", or they might be lost, but they will never be the same ever again. You have to decide if you're going to be an active participant in shaping your future, or whether you're going to let "gator tears" decide it for you.

You also asked about whether he has lost his mind, or was he always this way and you didn't catch it. My answer would be probably "no" to both.

He's not nuts...just acting like it. And no, he's probably not always been this way, he's just reverted to a very immature way of thinking right now. He is the center of his own universe. As someone once said..."You have a religious difference...He thinks he's God, and you don't!"

Something has probably happened to drive him this way. Either he's getting older and doesn't like it, or someone close has died, making him face mortality, or some of his friends have gotten divorced and led him to believe it's a great life. Whatever it is, you're not helping him by letting him come in and out of your life.

I, personally, think the best thing you can do is tell him the truth, make some rules, and stick to it. Don't be afraid to tell him that you love him, and would like to still have a life with him. But his past actions have endangered that, and until he earns your trust back, he can't expect to just stay a part of your life. He has rights AND responsibilities in your relationship, and he should have to live up to them. Don't make threats, but be willing to stand up for yourself, and not let him hurt you any more. Make him realize that he has to make a choice...and stick to it.

The greatest thing my wife did after my A was forgive me. But that forgiveness came with a condition...if it EVER happened again that she'd be out the door. And I don't doubt her at all. She didn't scream, or rant and rave, but she stood up for herself, and our marriage, by making certain conditions known. If I violate those conditions, after being warned, then I only have myself to blame.

Listen to your Mom. She is seeing things more clearly than you right now. She sees the hurt you are suffering, and it's killing her. Trust that she is seeing things with your best interests in mind.

Oscar

Marilyn
I will tell you from my own experiance as a WS DO NOT LET HIM COME BACK. WS's live in a false reality its like a dream but after a few months you really arent asleep anymore. You just fade in and out of reality. You see everyone you truly love hurting and you hurt too when you allow reality to get in. Those days that he wants to be with you he may be getting a glimpse of reality. He may just want his cake and eat it too. Been there done that noone wins we all lose. You have to be strong and tell him NO! The other thing my H did to me was act like he didnt care anymore what I did. Cant pay his rent?? So sorry. No food too bad. Cars broke down? Oh well. He knows you are there if he wants to come "have some cake" and that OW is there if he wants to "eat some cake" From the lips of a WS YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO I have never been a very strong person so I can understand how hard it is to tell him no. It hurts you to hurt him but look at what hes doing to you! Hes playing you like a fiddle hun. If you have to send him an email or a letter and tell him how you feel its better than nothing but if you get confronted face to face about the things in the letter you better stand your ground. He knows were your weakness is and he will use it to get his way everytime untill he really commits to NC with OW. Withdrawl is very hard thing to usually we want to be with our spouse but its too hard and painful so we end up in the easy seat with OP. Its a lot easer to give in than to fight for what you really want unless you want it bad enough and for the right reasons. We dont think about it hurting others we justify it by well if Im happy my kids will be happy, or well he or she did or said this to me the list could go on and on but i think you get my point. We arent thinking of anyone but ourselves, what we want what we need what we like. We lie to you but worse than that we lie to ourselves too. I know all of what I have told you seems horrible but from where i was as a WS its all true. Does OW know H is running back to you every few weeks? You still have something he wants or he would stay gone. Dont give up but dont give in. Good Luck!

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: rachelw81 ]</small>

Oscar and Rachel thank you, Pepperband as always hearing your words its always comforting.

Rachel, to answer your question, yes the ow knows. She has thrown him out more times then I can count. When she finds out he’s contacted me she throws his thing out or she asks him to leave or other times he just picks up and leaves. As sick as it may be hear and I have spoken with her and She doesn't understand why she even accepts him back, but it's "me" who I feel in standing “still”, there are so many things in my life that are standing still and I seriously believe that until I resolve this, or get past this my life won't steer straight or move forward. As Pepperband stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you currently "waiting" for life to get better, and when it does, you can feel happiness? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, This is ME, It's like I'm waiting for happiness to knock on my front door and ask if any happiness needed? Maybe it's because I've never been alone, I moved from my parents home and I entered our home, or maybe its such a sign of weakness, I didn't know I had? I have strong business sense, managing over a million-dollar business, so I ask why this weakness when I know I can be extremely tough?

We can't even try to begin the rebuilding process without him leaving? Then he begs to come back! This weekend I asked him to please make plans to go to his aunt’s home and he agreed very quickly to this, no hesitation, which leads me to believe, he is on contact with OW. If he wasn't I would see signs of withdrawal, it's unbelievable but I can always tell when he in the fog/withdrawal syndrome! I’ve been in this roller coaster to long, when something is becoming this familiar it’s time to head into an alannon (spelling?) treatment center? Would this be considered the same?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

OneBreath:

I've been here since Dec. 02. I can't believe it. Almost a year since D-Day. I have a super long thread on here somewhere. Your situation is a lot like mine in many ways. My FWH was a cake-eater. I think he left me and came back either 3 or 4 times. I'm 90% sure that this is REAL RECOVERY.

I want you to believe me when I say. The most essential and important thing that I did for our recovery was PLAN B. I was such an enabler. That made the A last longer.

Just like you I fought the idea and concept of PLAN B. I've been married forever. I've never been with another man. I didn't think that I could live without my husband. However, I am now thoroughly convinced that the only reason that we are together is that he knows for sure that I will and can go on without him. I know that too.

The A is like an addiction and I was codependent. I was even told by Steve H. to go to ALANON meetings. We have to be willing to let go and let them feel the pain of doing without us. I let him learn how it would be for him to have to depend solely on the OW to meet all of his needs. Of course she failed miserably.

I could go on and on with this. Search for the topic WHAT I LEARNED where I said a lot of this before.

Take Care

mimi1254,
How did you know it was Ok to take your WH back after three months of legal separation? What did he do make you want to try again and trust him? or rather what did you do to make him want you back?

BS-ME 38
WH-41
married 17 years
S-16,D13
D-Day 1 2001
D-Day 2 2003 same woman
currently separated

mimi1254,
Funny you should mention an alanon meeting, as I am actually looking into that. Codependency would be the only explanation to my craziness permitting someone to continue to walk over me.

NEW UPDATE:

I took a day off from work yesterday to spend the day together, and while we where visiting a 2004 new car auto show WS gets a call, (the phone was on silence) but he looks at the phone and places the phone back into his pockets and tells me he is going to go grab a cup of coffee. I continue to walk around and look back to find hime on the phone and looking around to see if he could find my whereabouts (I can see him clearly) and he proceeds to leave the area with no coffee. He meets up with me maybe 10 minutes later and I asked him blatantly "What did she want", he looks stunned and says nothing, I was so mad! Not at her calling, but at him lying again. He say's he "didn't lie", I stated that "an omission is a lie and that when he noticed it was a blocked # calling he should have answered the call infront of me!"

Well we went home and I asked him to leave, that I could stand it anymore, he stepped out to take stuff to his car and when he didn't come in for about 15 minutes I went out to find him, since none of his items had beem removed from my home. Yes! I found him in his car, speaking with her! He stated "She called him again, to tell him how much he hurt her and how he lied and would never let me go" I looked at his phone and he did rec. a "Private" number call about 15 minutes before. But I just wanted him out! He begged to let him stay the night and he would leave in the morning. I (AS A FOOL I AM) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> agreed, and then about 1 hour later he tells me he needs to drop off his son’s passport, since he lost his ID. The same son that lives blocks from OW, the son that lives on HIS way to work, which he could just as easily have dropped the passport on his way to work and not at 9:00 P.M. and not to mention a 40 mile drive from my house! I knew what he was doing, so I told him to leave and not return, which he did.

I AM DONE.....I AM SO DONE.....AND I AM READY TO MOVE ON!

YAY

Your question is my fear that I try and try and a few years later he does it again, with the OW or a new one. As mimi1254 stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the A is like an addiction and I was codependent </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the codependency needs to stop, when does the humiliation, lying, deceit and betrayal stop? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> When "WE" stop them! I have no doubt that if I would have stopped this a year ago and forced him to be with her and only her, WE could have had a chance! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

TIme for a PLAN B letter and PLAN B.

Gave him a plan b letter yesterday, and he should be picking up his stuff tomorrow. Wish me luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thought I would let you all know, how grateful I am to have had a place to bare my soul and read thread after thread, I've learned so much on a topic I wish I never had to know anything about.

Update: WS moved out on Tuesday and changed all his phone numbers (just found out), and even though I tried not to contact or think of him these past few days (7 days and counting) I am terrified, and he knows it. I pray that god hears me, but I am also skeptical as they say, "be carefully what you wish for?" I’ve recently have been courted by a gentleman and I don't even want to think about going there, since I think I need to heal myself first before I even think of going out w/ someone. He has been quit persistent, and I feel so disregarded?

With regards to WS, I received a call today, stating the same things.....I guess the FOG has lifted briefly, what a shame it's not for good. Told me he is moving-in with his aunt and wanted me to have the #. I didn't accept it because it's easier to be in a plan b if I have no knowledge of his whereabouts and with whom he is with. I think it takes strengths and/or maybe the knowledge that I am gone for him to leave her!

But I am so scared of the unknown! The holidays are approaching, my first alone in almost 10 years, ouch!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />