yosh:

Sometimes, particularly for posters like MM who've got a lot of experience on the boards, a post like yours can ac2ally serve 2 remind them 2 fight harder FOR their broken Ms. And so, for that, I think your post is helpful.

"I have been reading your posts and have come to the conclusion that you are correct in filing for divorce."

You've been here for a couple months now. MM's story goes back well over a year. He's a prolific thinker and poster, so I would bet you've missed a lot. I don't think it's this simple.

"You have tried to forgive her for having the affair and rebuilding the marriage but she has not forgiven you for things you may have done in your marriage before the affair."

Good point, and it's probably true. My W hasn't forgiven me entirely for the things I did before and during her A, either. But think... for 2long, I kept right on doing the things that bothered my W before and during her A. MM is doing the same. He needs 2 figure out how 2 stop this behavior. Hard 2 do, truthfullly. But better than simply jettisoning the M, because she'll never be out of his life since they have a family 2gether.

"Instead of trying to create a new marriage she is still trying to justify her affair."

I don't believe this for a New York Minute. She's not trying 2 justify anything, she's trying 2 reach out 2 someone who is very hard-headed, with a firmly-held belief system (this is NOT a criticism of his religion), and a very strict set of expectations of her that are very hard for her 2 meet. When she tells him how she honestly feels, he gets hurt and reacts by threatening divorce rather than truly trying 2 empathize with her feelings (believe me, I did that for so long my head is still spinning from the realization of the idiocy of it all).

"She states that she does not want to have a divorce but wants to have a legal separation. IMO this attitude to run away shows a lack of commitment to rebuilding a marriage."

Possibly, but I think it's more due 2 her frustrations with feeling like she's met an impasse with MM. He doesn't listen, he gets angry. If she KNOWS that he'll get angry when she opens up, why would she want 2 open up?

"This is the same thinking that she exhibited during her affair when she was having an affair. She didn't want a divorce but still wanted to continue her affair. Only when she saw that you were serious did she break off the affair and come back to you."

Coming home and blowing off the OM was a BIG STEP for her, and one she made several months ago. It was a risk, because she faced the very real possibility that the changes MM made during his plan A would be only temporary, and that their R would soon be right back 2 the state it was before she had her A. I believe that she's still trying 2 connect with HIM (not his rules and regulations) even now, but is just as afraid as she was before her A. That she hasn't gone back 2 the A shows that she's realized that THAT isn't a viable option, but a self-destructive lifestyle that she no longer wants. Now, it's determining whether living with MM is better or worse than living alone. Harsh, but if any of us BSs really make the effort 2 try 2 understand the WS' behavior and choices, I think I'm pretty close 2 the mark with that assessment. It's certainly demonstrable in my own sitch.

"MM you cannot rebuild a marriage by yourself. The fact is that your wife's past and present actions show that she is not interested in being married to you."

I don't think it's at all this clear.

"If she was she would be telling you right now that she does not want to separate but will be doing everything to help build a happy marriage. By saying that she will go along with your decision to file for divorce shows even moreso that she is not interested in staying married by not wanting fight for the marriage. "

More like it's saying that she's just as frustrated trying 2 get through 2 MM as he is by not having SF all these months. Again, harsh, but true.

MM, I believe your W wants 2 be Md 2 you, but she wants it 2 be a happy, mu2ally rewarding M.

♥2long

MM: What Lupolady and 2long said struck a chord with me, and I thought I might be able to say something similar in a slightly different way.

Many times during recovery, my wife would say things that made me angry. I would get in to a place where I was so angry I could not talk about it, so I would stew and stew on what she said, frequently for days (and nights). In almost all cases, when I finally had calmed down enough to ask about it, I found out that what I thought she meant, and what she really meant, were two different things. It has gotten to the point that now, when something she says makes me angry, I am pretty darn sure that I am mis-understanding something. Frequently, when I am frustrated, hurt, or afraid, (the three causes of anger) the same is true.

When she told you about feeling that you were in it for yourself, what she was trying to tell you was much different than what you heard. I am not saying that what you heard is not true, however. What I am saying is that she was trying to tell you something REALLY important, and you missed it.

Let me give you a further example from my own experience. My wife have an ongoing problem related to our sexual realtionship. When I asked her to change some things, she said something to the effect of: "I can't." What I heard was: "Your needs are not important enough to me to look at myself honestly enough to do this. I will not deal with my issues for your sake. All my words about how I will do WHATEVER it takes to be the wife you need are just more lies."

Do you think that is what she meant? I am sure it was not. Was what I "heard" true? Maybe. But until I get to the bottom of what she really meant, I won't kow for sure. Just writing about it now I think she meant something like: "I am afraid I am not capable of that much change." Being afraid you are not capable of doing something is quite different than not being able to do it, but if the fear is strong enough, it can FEEL like not being able to do it, so maybe that is what comes out of your mouth.

Furthermore, the difference is crucial to how I respond. If what she is saying is simply about stubbornness, obstinacy, hard-heartedness, and a lack of commitment to our marriage, my response is going to be quite different than if it is because of fear. In the first case, once I take care of any ways in which I may have contributed to her attitude, I will leave her to the consequences of her actions. In the second, I will give her encouragement and make it safe for her to express her fears, and explore ways I can help her overcome them.

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM, I don't think I've ever posted to you, and I rarely even peek into GQII anymore, but somehow I ended up here today, so here are some of my thoughts for you.

TMCM's post regarding SF is bang on. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more a woman perceives pressure for sex from her man, the less she is going to want it. A man's resentment is and never will be an aphrodisiac to any woman. If you want to fulfill your role as lover, then you have to demonstrate to her that your love for her is NOT dependent on her giving you sex. The greatest lovers in history have always conveyed that message to their women. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H's insistant need for sex, but unwillingness to work on our friendship and to spend time with me doing things that do NOT include sex has driven me away from him. I don't sense that he genuinely loves me anymore, it's more like he still just physically needs or wants sex with me. I repeatedly have had the feeling that I am just a sex object for my H, and it's a huge part of what has driven me to divorce. (Although, keep in mind that in my sitch that my H reserved his emotional attention for his 2 female friends, and how that compounded the pain for me.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should indeed not just expect sex from your wife, regardless if it's your #1 EN. You've got to meet her non-sexual ENs in order to have her be interested in SF. It's the way we women are wired. If we don't feel that you are emotionally connected to us, why have sex with you, why give away part of ourselves to you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY. And on that day that you went for counselling, when you took her comments personally and jumped to talking about divorce, I'd say you pretty much told her, "Don't share your feelings with me, especially if they aren't positive feelings towards me, because I don't want to hear them, in fact, when you talk to me about your feelings, I want to leave you."

I may be way off base here, but maybe she had her A in the first place b/c she felt like OM really listened to her, and validated her feelings. I know that is a huge part of the reason I ended up havig an A myself. My H was too busy soaking up admiration and appreciation from his 2 female friends to be bothered with having to listen to me wasting his time talking about my feelings, but OM listened.

So focus on being a good listener to your W, especially if she's talking about her feelings. And don't expect sex without first making her feel a genuine emotional connection with you.

You and your W really do sound like if you can communicate better (directly to each other and not through her female friend), that you'll have a really good chance at recovering your M. Little things like her wanting to go grocery shopping WITH you....she cares about you and wants to spend time with you. What I wouldn't do to have my H ask to go shopping with me, and to do something with me other than try to initiate sex.....

I hope what I've said gives you some food for thought.

Jen