Woooo hooooo!!!

Something told me to come here, call it intuition, I dunno ....

I'm so glad I did! I was drinking my Starbuck's and reading this and almost lost it thru the nose .. thanks WAT! LMAO

You said things I've only dreamed I could say to my ex. Big hugs, Dave.

Personally, I think after she reads it, she'll tell herself "sour grapes, blah, blah blah" ... but, I'm certain there is a part in her that will tickle and [censored] and knaw, telling her there is an undenialable element of truth in it.

It's amazing to me she wanted you to "HELP HER" beat down someone (OM's EX-W) that was simply feeling the pain and anguish of HER and OM's betrayal. It was like saying, "WAT honey, please help me make this woman go away so I don't have to think how badly I hurt her, she's making my fantasy with OM iiicky, booo hooo". It's also interesting that she thinks you are supportive of them only because you've accepted and been mature in dealing with her. She just does not GET IT.

Much love and happiness to you WAT. You deserve all of whats good.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ November 14, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

WAT, you rock <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good on ya WAT - and hey - looks like your post sparked an MB Oldtimer's reunion!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alberta:
<strong> Good on ya WAT - and hey - looks like your post sparked an MB Oldtimer's reunion!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Alberta, I resemble that remark. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jo, good to hear from you. Howa bean?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2L and Mel, if U 2 can't decide what 2 do w/ those $5, we should add it to WAT's boat afloat fund - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Orchid, speak for yourself I REFUSE to think of my self as an old-timer. and HI to you & Jo too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alberta:
<strong> Good on ya WAT - and hey - looks like your post sparked an MB Oldtimer's reunion!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Alberta, I resemble that remark. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jo, good to hear from you. Howa bean?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2L and Mel, if U 2 can't decide what 2 do w/ those $5, we should add it to WAT's boat afloat fund - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

My dear Sing,

How nice to hear from you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ok, so you don't want to be considered an old timer? Neither do I but I don't think mother nature lies. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

WAT, As usual your reply to XW was right on the money. And you are right, kids are smarter than most give them credit for and will come to the truth within themselves with time and security. I LOVED your response to the X and am glad to hear your are doing so well. May we all have peace and prosper!

It is always good when people can pick up the pieces of their lives and move on positively, so congrats for that...I agree the voicemail made little sense without some explanation, but I am a little confused over the nature of your email (and the kudos many here have offered in that regard).

It is pretty hostile and pointless (except as a vent about your feelings). As a parent, regardless of how I felt about an exspouse I would certainly want to know the details of any possible danger my child could be exposed to. Maybe this woman is going off the deep end and has made threats that include harm to your son. Maybe not, but I would want to know why the ro was sought and given. Maybe she isn't dangerous per se, but regularly intrudes on your exw family, such disruptions would not be good for your son either...that is why we have such tools (restraining orders) to protect privacy and peace from being disrupted by those with malicious intent.

Your tone was almost as if you sort of enjoyed her discomfort, hopefully not (not a very good reflection on any of us when we enjoy others misfortune), and your email kinda drove that home. You sound pretty angry actually. You said you are divorced, indicated you have a happier relationship now, so why the email? A couple things were pretty disturbing. But I am wondering, do you talk to everyone (you don't like) this way. What if your son ever wrongs you just as badly (as you feel your exw did apparently), will you treat him this way too? Is vindictiveness part of healthy behaviour (for any of us).


..You will not draw me into your cess pool and I will not cast <OM's XW> as the villain in your crime.

sufdb....cesspool? It is ok to talk about someones marriage...and expecially your sons mothers marriage this way? Villian? because she is the recipient of a ro, which may very well be deserved? (If not deserved, I agree with you, and since ro are absurdly easy to get, it is possible your exw is acting eggregiously toward the woman). Crime? That she divorced you? If adultery was involved, and you live in the right state, a crime is possible, but that isn't really the point is it....you are angry she left the marriage, that is not a crime, it is a choice, both legally and ethically allowed (no one can own someone).

....When <son> is with me he is in a stable, safe environment and I will determine when I need any help, regardless of any Order. I am above this fray and I refuse to participate in this huge mess that is of your own making. That said, I seriously considered having an Order issued against <OM> after his June 27 threat of violence against me, but I chose not to add any more drama to this sickening soap opera.

sufdb...I agree, and stating ones boundaries is healthy. And although drama it may be, everyday violence and disruption arise out of the emotional immaturity of all parties to relationship conflicts. It does seem though that ro are of little use in actually preventing real violence, so only work against responsible people in the first place. Judging by this email, I wonder what role (if any) you play in hard feelings re your exw and her H. Do you let your personal animosity show through your speech, body language, and such?

.....While I do not condone certain of <OM's XW's> actions (of those I am aware of), your success in obtaining a restraining Order is a good example of misdirected justice. <OM's XW> is not the problem - you are the problem.

sufdb...And you know this how? You are privy to the behaviour which led to the granting of the ro?

....Her actions are the direct consequences of your decisions. What did you expect? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

sufdb....So, now we aren't responsible for our own behaviour, we can just blame someone else, they made us do it? Frankly, I am surprised that women aren't taking you to task for suggesting they have no brains, and can't deal with rejection. Talk about the most debilitateing kind of sexism.

....You emotionally raped me and <OM's XW> and did irreparable harm to the children - for you to now award yourselves victim status is grotesque.

sufdb...So now it is open season on her, cause she didn't leave the marriage in an approved fashion? How about you, and your behaviour, you did not contribute to the marital failure?

....You two are entirely responsible for this mess and it’s unfortunate that <OM's XW's> behavior is giving you something to hide behind to rationalize YOUR abhorrent behavior. If any harm comes to <son> due to actions of <OM's XW>, I will hold you two responsible.

sufdb....You sound like one very angry person. So these "two" are responsible for your and other exspouses behaviour? Nothing is preventing either of you from letting go of your anger, behaving responsibly, and letting your exspouses live their lives with your goodwill....nothing except your own personal animus....why do people do this, it makes no sense, what is done is done, someone did not want to remain in a marriage, that's all....The intensity of reaction, and how people behave after a divorce says a lot about who they are, and what kind of a partner they were. The omxw is demonstrating (apparently) that she has serious behavioural issues, maybe viewed her H as some kind of property, and cannot accept in a healthy way her circumstances....this had to be reflected in her marriage....just like post divorce anger, lack of cooperation, illwill etc.

Everyone experiences the consequences of their actions, including your exw, I agree...so will you and the omxw....to whatever degree you contribute illwill to your exspouses remarriage you put destabilizing pressure on it, and impact (negatively) the enviroment of the children...as well as promote your own inappropriate behaviour, which will also affect your childen as they learn vindictiveness, illwill, and judgemental attitudes from you....that strikes me as pretty self-centered, and indulgent...kind of the same charges made about the ex's I presume.

....That you felt it necessary to obtain an Order is clear indication that your home is neither a stable nor safe environment for <son>. Add to this OM’s propensity for violence and I have serious concerns about <son's> well being while in <XW's> custody. If he was younger or hadn’t already demonstrated the willingness to call me when needed, I would seek full custody.

sufdb...As a parent, I fully concur with your feelings about son. What is unclear is how much you contribute to the mix with your attitudes. Have you contemplated letting your anger go, and being supportive (as much as an exspouse can) of your exw, making it clear your wish her well, have your goodwill, whatever support you have to help her marriage? If exspouses cannot offer each other this, then I have to wonder how they can claim (as they often do) they love(ed) each other....

...<XW> also stated she would explain all of this to <son>. I can imagine what such an explanation will be - <OM's XW> is crazy and she caused all of this and you two are innocent victims. The depth of your denial is astounding. In time, <son> will process everything that has occurred and will arrive at the truth on his own.

....Indeed he will, and I suspect it won't be what either of you think it is. But what is disturbing is the character assasination throughout this email. You imply things she will tell son, you can't talk to people like that, it is just plain wrong...verbal aggession. It is not too difficult to understand why you and wife had marital difficulties. This kind of aggressive strategy/behaviour is anathema to healthy relationships. You could have made all the points of concern in this email in a much more productive manner, which would ultimately benefit your son, whose well-being you claim to be concerned about.....if so, don't you think setting a better example of conflict resolution with his mother would benefit him?

....I don’t have to try to explain it. In the meantime, I will reinforce to <son> that our home is a safe refuge for him and he can call me anytime to escape any nasty situations that arise while with you. I suggest that if you two really have <son's> best interest in mind, that you would not attempt to prevent him from spending all of his time with me, if he so chooses.

sufdb...I agree.


Hopefully your anger does not get redirected on me. It is great your life is improving. The concern is attitudes of vindictiveness, or pleasure at an exspouses difficulties (as expressed on this thread by many), and the notion of open season on someone simply cause one is mad they left them. Marriages rarely end well, they are almost always messy. I see no point (once what is done is done) in continuing to visit illwill or meanspiritness on anyone, including an exspouse....but when it happens, I cannot help but wonder if that in itself is enough to validate why the marriage ended.

Good luck in your new relationship....and your son is lucky to have a father who values his well-being so much....sadly many don't.

Sufdb,

You aren't new to posting or reading here right? You are familar with WAT's situation and extenuating issues, correct?

Given that and knowing that these communications are not daily or even weekly, then you should also be aware that the foggy Xws is still foggy and attempting to still pull their A stunts even after the D.

It is obvious WAT does not want to be pulling into the mire (cesspool). You can call poop manure or environmental waste but it still smells the same.

Also expecting the BS to continue to act perfect while the XWS' act continually stupid is beyond human reason.

Really Sufdb, can't say the BS in your life was all perfect right? But she did try her best within her means. I am sure you will be trying your best also.

Is this a pick on SUFDB? No, of course not. You should know better than that. Just looked like you had a memory loss on the real events. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Dave,

Great to see you're doing well!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Sufdb,

You aren't new to posting or reading here right? You are familar with WAT's situation and extenuating issues, correct?

Given that and knowing that these communications are not daily or even weekly, then you should also be aware that the foggy Xws is still foggy and attempting to still pull their A stunts even after the D.

It is obvious WAT does not want to be pulling into the mire (cesspool). You can call poop manure or environmental waste but it still smells the same.

Also expecting the BS to continue to act perfect while the XWS' act continually stupid is beyond human reason.

Really Sufdb, can't say the BS in your life was all perfect right? But she did try her best within her means. I am sure you will be trying your best also.

Is this a pick on SUFDB? No, of course not. You should know better than that. Just looked like you had a memory loss on the real events. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't recall all the details, but the observations are partly due to the comments by others as well (sort of a feeding frenzy of illwill to the exw)....and I don't think anything justifies vindictiveness in thought or deed...not because of any great concern for the recipient of the mistreatment, but because it is very debilitateing to the person doing it. It disturbs me alot when bs (or ws, or anyone) behave in hurtful manners, I don't beleive it is ever justified. I have been sorely mistreated throughout my ordeal, and still am, but I keep my eye on the high road...set boundaries, but still seek the high road...which includes apologizing when I let my emotional responses get the better of me. I have come to believe that strategy is the best way for individual well-being, so I promote it whenever I see a need....do you agree?

btw, if a bs is going to let the actions of a ws (or anyone) dictate their behaviour....where does personal responsibility come in? I don't think it makes sense to blame someone else for your behaviour... As for the actions of the ws in this circumstance, she is not here to defend herself, and if I have learned anything here (or in my own life) at all re relationships and perception..... bs (as well as ws) regularly misrepresent their spouse, and downplay their own contributions to disharmony. That too orchid......is human nature, perception is everything, and it varies...alot.

<small>[ November 16, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong> [QUOTE]
L.
I don't recall all the details, but the observations are partly due to the comments by others as well (sort of a feeding frenzy of illwill to the exw)....and I don't think anything justifies vindictiveness in thought or deed...not because of any great concern for the recipient of the mistreatment, but because it is very debilitateing to the person doing it. It disturbs me alot when bs (or ws, or anyone) behave in hurtful manners, I don't beleive it is ever justified. I have been sorely mistreated throughout my ordeal, and still am, but I keep my eye on the high road...set boundaries, but still seek the high road...which includes apologizing when I let my emotional responses get the better of me. I have come to believe that strategy is the best way for individual well-being, so I promote it whenever I see a need....do you agree?

btw, if a bs is going to let the actions of a ws (or anyone) dictate their behaviour....where does personal responsibility come in? I don't think it makes sense to blame someone else for your behaviour... As for the actions of the ws in this circumstance, she is not here to defend herself, and if I have learned anything here (or in my own life) at all re relationships and perception..... bs (as well as ws) regularly misrepresent their spouse, and downplay their own contributions to disharmony. That too orchid......is human nature, perception is everything, and it varies...alot. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Sufdb, to quote from the WS handbook, 'you can't tell me (ws) what to do.' The point is when a BS shows their feelings, the WS acts like the WS' rights have been trampled on.

Tell me S, what action on the part of the BS and family justifies all the pain of an A you see, read and experience here? Maybe then and if that only remotely, will there ever be support for a WS' A.

From the looks of the WS experiences (given by both sides), the WS seem to love creating chaos then placing the blame on others, even the dog. Hm.... gotta wonder if they will ever come out of the fog. WS seem to hold a higher standard on the BS then the WS holds on themselves. A bit hypocritical, doncha think?

Btw, maybe we should take this one off to another thread since, this is really WAT's thread and it is now going to another dimension. 'eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Of course sufdb has read (and responded to) the details of WAT's story - I recall reading the discussion myself. Of course sufdb was posting under another name then.

sufdb - yes, I am a flawed, imperfect human being - with emotions fully enabled. This is probably why I cannot imagine wishing XW and OM well in their new marriage. Quite the contrary - I hope it is short lived - for my son's sake.

Angry? Yea, I gotta admit I am a teensy bit angry at my XW - for her "crimes" you are not likely aware of. But any anger I have is far outweighed by my pity for my XW. No, I do not love her anymore. She is not the person I loved for many years. But am I wrong to be a bit angry? I don't think so. I am proud to say my response to the whole story has been admired and praised by close friends and family members on both sides - that my reactions were not exposed in an unrestrained manner. Anger turned inward results in depression - and I had a citation case of it.

Was my message to the infidels a vent? Of course it was - I said so in my initial post.

So, thanks for your lengthy analysis. If you knew the full story, I bet your analysis would read differently - perhaps you'd think of a more vivid description than "cess pool."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> sufdb - yes, I am a flawed, imperfect human being - with emotions fully enabled. This is probably why I cannot imagine wishing XW and OM well in their new marriage. Quite the contrary - I hope it is short lived - for my son's sake.

Angry? Yea, I gotta admit I am a teensy bit angry at my XW - for her "crimes" you are not likely aware of. But any anger I have is far outweighed by my pity for my XW. No, I do not love her anymore. She is not the person I loved for many years. But am I wrong to be a bit angry? I don't think so. I am proud to say my response to the whole story has been admired and praised by close friends and family members on both sides - that my reactions were not exposed in an unrestrained manner. Anger turned inward results in depression - and I had a citation case of it.

Was my message to the infidels a vent? Of course it was - I said so in my initial post.

So, thanks for your lengthy analysis. If you knew the full story, I bet your analysis would read differently - perhaps you'd think of a more vivid description than "cess pool." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not about being perfect, it is about trying to improve ourselves by our choices. I am sure you have emotions, were mistreated, and feel justified in your anger. But rather than vent, anger gives us an opportunity to practice other valuable traits, such as restraint, forbearance, forgiveness, stress control, clear thinking... In so doing one controls their life, not the other way around.

Feeling anger is part of being human, how we act on it is a choice, and venting (on someone, as opposed to venting in a safe manner to others) is very poor choice most of the time, accomplishes little of value, and is more hazardous to the ventor than the ventee. Perhaps I am deficient in this area, I personally have never been able to sustain much anger directly at anyone (and apologize when I do), I have tried to hold grudges, be vindictive, never works long, and I have been sorely used by some in my life as well...but don't want to get into competeing "wrongs".

The post was to encourage folks contemplate the benefits (or lack thereof) in visiting anger on another...and as orchid pointed out WAT, when you point at the "other" person, 3 fingers are pointing back at you....I suspect your exw is every bit as mad at you, and feels just as righteous and justified as you do, so by that criteria she should treat you with anger as well....hopefully she tries to control herself, hopefully you both do, each of you benefit, as does your son. Re wishing her well, but hoping the marriage ends, I don't see those as conflictual. If you love someone, ever actually loved them, you should always wish them the best IMO, or you really never loved them at all (which isn't good or bad, just an observation about how often we misinterpret love). At the same time correctly assessing the health or not of your wifes marriage is perfectly ok, and if it is not a healthy place then absolutely hoping it ends for you sons sake makes sense to me.....but deliberately sabotageing it any way you can is not ok (not that you are). Sometimes exspouses do such things, and makes them no better than any other "homewrecker".

My comments are usually about principles, behavioural principles...that is why the circumstances don't make any real difference. Anger visted on another is never justified, unless you seek power over them, or to injure them, then it is a tool and should be used with discernment and surgical precision....not an excuse to vent personal animus arising from feelings of rejection. When marriages end it is all about rejection, just the way life works, the risk you take when you marry...and the more you fight for the marriage, the more emotional resources you vest, and the greater the feelings of rejection (and anger) will be.... I don't understand why people don't realize that, seems obvious.

Again good luck in your new relationship, and thx for not going off on me.

double

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

As a point of detail, my message to XW/OM was not in anger - I was not "visiting" anger on them. The "anger" component - the very little that exists - was introduced by you. My message was intended to be a statement of feelings and position. The fact that it gave me pleasure being defiant was gravy.

I cannot quibble with your conceptual arguments - that the higher moral ground is always best to take and it exists in deference to unselfishness. I’ve demonstrated all along to be squarely on top of the moral high ground - not that I’ve completely avoided a step or two down the slippery slope. I am a better person now than before my younger son died and my wife ran from her pain with her best friend’s husband whom I had trusted so much that I asked him to help lay my son in the ground. I was not a perfect husband, but any wrongs of mine pale in comparison to those acts. So yes, I propose that competing wrongs are rarely balanced and not all pointing fingers can point equally as far.

I come from the school of "play the role, pay the toll." I believe until we take individual responsibility for our actions, we can not hope to approach attainment of all your conceptual, desirable attributes. Accordingly, I do wish my XW well and I can forgive her - but I am not capable of this until she seeks forgiveness. She needs to pay the toll. I have told her as much. My well wishes are for her to look in the mirror and see what she has done and begin to restore her integrity and dignity. This is not a grudge or anger. It’s expectations of being accountable, admitting mistakes, and, thus, having integrity. These are my principles and I cannot stray from them. No free rides. So far, this has not occurred, but I know she’s capable. As for OM, he is not capable of this whatsoever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> Accordingly, I do wish my XW well and I can forgive her - but I am not capable of this until she seeks forgiveness. She needs to pay the toll. I have told her as much. My well wishes are for her to look in the mirror and see what she has done and begin to restore her integrity and dignity. This is not a grudge or anger. It’s expectations of being accountable, admitting mistakes, and, thus, having integrity. These are my principles and I cannot stray from them. No free rides. So far, this has not occurred, but I know she’s capable. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dave,

I just had to respond to this. It is the very center of the subject I covered with my therapist at our last meeting. My wife and I were divorced last week and she is Hell bent to keep everything just the way it has been these past three years. My intial response was to have as little contact as possible. But when you have two teen age daughters that bounce back and forth between two households every week, this is next to impossible.

My therapist believes that my wife will express remorse one day. The best thing I can do right now is to continue to work on me. That is the only thing I can do to hasten this moment.

Sorry if I hijacked your thread... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi AH - sorry to hear your D has completed. But please take it from me - this could be the beginning of a vast improvement for you - not for your girls, but for you.

I think this concept of wanting some remorse from the WSs by people like us is pretty universal. At its base, we want to be right. Remember the common phrase here on MB, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" Well, now you and I just want to be right. Until then, we have a hard time forgiving. We could be flawed, but I think at least we're normal.

I wish you and your daughters well.

WAT

WAT,

Glad to see you posting!!! You are missed here and thought of many times I am sure. Your thoughts were always welcomed unlike others, yours were wanted and understood, I didn't need a degree to figure out what you wanted me to know!!!! I miss that!!!!

Happy floating to you and your sweetie!!! Continue taking care of yourself (I learned a great deal from you on that subject) and your son!!!

God Bless,
Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />