Sparkle-- I think there could be a very real correlation between addictive personality and ability to end an A. My FWH still smokes after a heart attack at age 46. Check my signature profile for number of Ddays...

Harley is quite clear about an A being addictive.

At one Dday, H said he was "cutting down" on contact, and I pointed to the nuber of times he would cut down on smoking and then creep right back to the old level. Obviously, I don't subscribe to the theory that small steps are good for ending addiction. It has to be cold turkey in my book.

The thing that finally got his attention-and I so wish I had done it sooner-was the reality of being asked to leave. Consequences more painful than ending the A.

Now, what to do about that smoking... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
--DT

Sparkle:

As for the small steps -- recognizing the problem and an increased level of determination in correcting it, then taking what I deam are positive steps -- including visiting this board, sharing and learning.

The cold turkey approach is perhaps the best. But from what I have read, it is most effective when the person involved is suitably motivated, mentally and emotionally prepared to "survive" any symtoms of withdrawal.

I learned from repeated stop smoking programs -- yes, a repeat offender in this arena -- that the temptation of having "one more cigarette" is not valid. You don't want one more cigarette, you want a lifetime of one more cigarettes.

Whether you are damaging your health from smoking or damaging your marriage, your spouse's physical, mental and emotional well-being and your soul and self esteem from the poisonous addiction of an A, you have to muster the strength to flip that "cold turkey" switch and see it through.

In my humble opinion, when you better fortify yourself with your ultimate goal as your primary objective and focus, the cold turkey process is more tolerable and one is less likely to falter.

I hope this clarifies things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
tend to lock themselves in a course of action w/o giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or consequences
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is EXACTLY how I would describe WAH! Funny, I read that book long time ago but in a different context so hadn't put this together. Maybe I'll dig it up again. He wouldn't be interested and it would be a LB to show it to him but it's helpful to me to have insight.

Hiker

The info about ACA is really fascinating and I find it interesting that it isn't just kids of alcoholics, but of other types of dysfunctional families as well.

Leah

That is what I thought I would hear...replacing one "addictive" behavior with another - call it compulsion if you want. Now the challenge, it would appear, is HOW to channel those energies, those tendencies, those "needs" into a positive behavior - exercise? volunteering? Something the individual can be passionate about that is good for them and/or others.

stillsosad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems hard for H to stay out of an A as opposed to ending an A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a result, I wonder if there is a way to channel your H's energies into something beneficial. Perhaps he needs constant change or new challenges.

desperatelytrying

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At one Dday, H said he was "cutting down" on contact, and I pointed to the nuber of times he would cut down on smoking and then creep right back to the old level. Obviously, I don't subscribe to the theory that small steps are good for ending addiction. It has to be cold turkey in my book. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree 100%. A very good friend of mine tried a number of different approaches over the years to kick a nasty smoking habit. She spent a lot of money. Many programs used the gradual stepping down approach; others cold turkey. While she struggled for years, and her health was suffering, she had most success on cold turkey approaches. That was the one that finally worked for her too. Ten years or more, now.

In any addiction, including an affair, you cannot keep the feeding going on. Your body/mind will continue to hang on to the "substance," even if it is an OP. On the other hand, cold turkey hurts - the early days are excrutiatingly painful. But with each passing day, the pain is less. The memory of the "substance" very gradually fades. My friend, who used to count the minutes, then the hours, since her last cigarette, then for years would proudly exclaim, "I quit on XX/XX/XX (date)" now can no longer remember the date of her last "fix."

This is the way for affairs to end as well. You are right.

Foolish Bird

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the small steps -- recognizing the problem and an increased level of determination in correcting it, then taking what I deam are positive steps -- including visiting this board, sharing and learning.

The cold turkey approach is perhaps the best. But from what I have read, it is most effective when the person involved is suitably motivated, mentally and emotionally prepared to "survive" any symtoms of withdrawal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. So are you saying that the person in the affair - the WP - continues seeing OP, all the while trying to get "an increased level of determination" to end it? Then gradually lessens the contact?

How does one get "suitably motivated, mentally and emotionally prepared to 'survive'" the symptoms of withdrawal if the OP is still in the picture?

Please read desperatelytrying's info above. I think she is on target.

Steps to stopping an addiction - successfully - are commonly known: stop the addictive behavior (cold turkey); remove the source of the addiction (OP) and create an environment where the person can never be exposed to the (OP) again in his/her life.

As I said above, the story of my friend and her cigarettes - she is the first to admit you can't just gradually wean yourself from an addiction. It has to be sudden and complete.


jazmom

(From Hikers quote)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tend to lock themselves in a course of action w/o giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or consequences </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not only does that perhaps define your H, but does it not define the behavior of all WS's?

*S*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
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tend to lock themselves in a course of action w/o giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or consequences
--------------------------------------------------

Not only does that perhaps define your H, but does it not define the behavior of all WS's?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">S,

Not sure. I don't think all WSs show that "locked in" behavior and I think a few do consider the consequences but think they won't get caught or whatever. Could it be those are the ones who tend to return quickly to the marriage?

How many WSs have a history of sticking with something that is obviously heading for disaster? My WAH has done this repeatedly in other aspects of his life, particularly the business arena. We've even discussed it--how he won't jump off the train even when he can see the brick wall ahead and hear the other passengers hitting the ground. He would even admit to it. . .but, of course, he'd say THIS time is different!

Hi folks. As you may know before this awful A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I also fought a battle against drug addiction in my son. So I think I know a bit about comparing infidelity with a drug addiction.

When a close family member goes into inpatient care for the addiction, the family members are usually required to take a number of classes to help them understand the addiction and how to help the addict. During those classes one thing I learned is that there is a physiological condition that makes some people more prone to addiction. That is why some of us can have a martini at lunch, a glass of wine for dinner and not become dependent on the alchohol. Others, because of the way their brains are wired (my words) become addicts if they consume alchohol and other drugs.

Scientists do not understand all of this but they are learning. Drug addiction is definetly a physical disease.

I know of NO SIMILAR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that can be used to label an A as an addiction. Assuming there is no mental illness, I do not think that people who have affairs are addicts. However, many of their behaviors are certainly similar to those of addicts. But, then so are many of my behaviors related to chocolate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The little steps I referred to earlier include NC. It's an hour-by-hour, day-by-day decision to maintain focus and NC. Much like stopping smoking, focusing on healthier pursuits during those periods of withdrawal make the transition easier and your goal attainable.

Just my opinion...but I have been wrong far too many times before.

Sparkle,

Let me see if I can quote my FWH on this subject.
He said that he stopped the affair when he realized that he was becoming addicted to the feelings he was having as a result of living his "fantasy life". He said that he felt like the A was becoming an addiction, because he realized he was putting our marriage, family and life as he knew it at risk by continuing the affair.

It's very worrysome; because he liked how he felt, the thrill of getting away with something, the illicit sex, and the relationship with no-strings attached, no responsibility, etc.

Those euphoric feelings combined with the negative ones of guilt, & self disgust kind of sum it up for him.

Whether or not he has an addictive personality, it's hard to say. No signs of any other addictive behavior such as alcohol or drugs; but as the Harley's say everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. WS's have a weakness for having affairs and they will likely repeat their mistake unless they have a successful plan in place to protect themselves from their weakness.

Sort of like in AA there's the 12 step program. Steve Harley had my husband write a personal recovery plan to insure that if followed properly, should keep him from having another affair...which is his weakness. Blessings, CSue

auto009988
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know of NO SIMILAR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that can be used to label an A as an addiction. Assuming there is no mental illness, I do not think that people who have affairs are addicts. However, many of their behaviors are certainly similar to those of addicts. But, then so are many of my behaviors related to chocolate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Dr. Harley certainly seems, by virtue of the successes his approach takes, to have evidence, whether or not you consider it scientific. Consider the fact that early in his career he tried the traditional marriage counseling approach and saw the ongoing failures of the marriages of his clients. Only after he realized the addictive nature of affairs and started dealing with affairs as if they were true addictions did he start realizing success.

But you say that the behaviors are similar to those of addicts, so possibly you are still in agreement to a certain point. Yay chocolate - can't possibly be habit-forming <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Foolish Bird

Now you have me confused. In an earlier post you seemed to be saying that while the cold turkey approach might be the best, it was small steps that were taken that seemed more successful. This latest -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The little steps I referred to earlier include NC. It's an hour-by-hour, day-by-day decision to maintain focus and NC. Much like stopping smoking, focusing on healthier pursuits during those periods of withdrawal make the transition easier and your goal attainable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sounds like the small steps are following a cold turkey stop. Is that what you mean?

CSue

What great information! How wonderful that your H discovered in himself what was going on, and interesting that he came to the conclusion that it was an addiction.

I think Steve H's recommendation to write the plan was great as well.

Thanks you guys!

*S*

Hi
This is my first time doing anything like this. The condensed version of my looong story is this: I had been happily married for almost 23 years in the fall of 2001 when the bottom fell out of my world. We have 4 healthy kids ranging from 10 to 18, our own business, a nice home--what more could a person want? But this was not enough for my husband. After 6 or 8 months of anguish, not knowing WHAT was going on, just that something was terribly wrong, I received an anonymous letter telling me that my very best friend (my husband) had been having a torrid affair with a 28 yr old (we are 46) for the past several months. He left, and 2 days later she took a bunch of pills in an apparent suicide attempt. I say 'apparent' since her main objective is attention - of any sort. A few days later she forwarded their email correspondence to me - indeed it WAS torrid. The sex part I could somehow get past, but his telling her that she was the only woman he had ever loved, almost tore my heart out. He insisted that he had told her "what she wanted to hear" and that was it, that he did not mean any of it, that he was just infatuated with her beauty and bubbly personality. I'm still not sure how I lived through that time. In February 2002 I asked if he would go to a marriage counsellor - things were sooo strange and he was acting so weird, that he had moved out. We sat through several sessions, with me crying, and him lying about how "he didn't know WHAT was wrong with our relationship, but that, no, there was no other woman". After finding out about this affair, we went to two other counsellors - he was eager to go, but then just continued lying about everything that was important. What is the point? A few weeks after he supposedly ended the affair, she told him that she had been pregnant and had an abortion after the suicide attempt. She talked him into sleeping with her again. Then they talked on the phone for weeks after that - all the while telling me he was having no contact. Of course SHE made sure I found out, and so...another plunge on this roller coaster marriage. Upon finally drawing yet another line in the sand and telling him that, IF he swore that this had been the only time he had been unfaithful in our marriage, that we could try to rebuild our marriage....another surprise. He told me he had had an affair that lasted more than a year early in our marriage - with a 16 year old (he was 26 at the time). This would have been when I was pregnant with our first child. I still cannot believe it. If I had to pick ONE time that I was happiest, it would have been then. I had no idea at the time (he is a very good liar), but, looking back, I can remember things that were not exactly right. Each time, he has "sworn to God" that that is EVERYTHING - there is nothing else. And, each time, I find out that was not true - I feel that it will NEVER be true - there will ALWAYS be "one more thing". This summer I finally decided that it would be better if we separated, and finally thought I could have a life of my own (it took me a long while to get to that point). After one week, he begged and pleaded with me to take him back, that he would never do anything like that again, that all he wanted was me. I did not buy into what he was saying, but did not have the heart to turn him down (I know, I know). I asked him then if there had been others - he coughed up two more names. I am convinced that there have been many over the past (now nearly 25) years. The counsellor we had been seeing for more than a year has not changed his view since our first visit - he thinks he has a sexual addiction. Now that I am a bit more 'removed' from the heat of emotions, I agree. I do not think he purposely did these things to hurt his family - I think it was 'bigger than him'. He does have an addictive personality, in everything he does - work, play, even taking pills (if 2 aspirin are good, then 10 would be 5 times better). When this last affair was going on, he was taking about 20 'beans' (uppers that truck drivers sometimes use) a day. This definitely played a part in the strangeness of that time.
Anyway, I have somehow muddled through these last two years, and feel, at last, like there maybe is a light at the end of the tunnel. But now, the next step would be divorce, and it would be me who would be taking the step....aaand, I am not comfortable with it. I know he has done many wrong things and has hurt his family immeasurably, but basically I guess that's on HIS conscience. I made those same vows 25 yrs ago "to love, honour and cherish - til death do us part" and I do not feel right about breaking them. He says he wants to be with me but will respect my wishes this time and will leave me alone. After all that he has done, I don't want to upset my kids any more. I want to do what is right and best for us....I just don't know what that is. I'm not even sure if I think there is help for his addiction, but without some sort of assurance that he has changed, I feel that I would be "asking for it" all over again if I stay with him. I still love him and think he is a good person and a good father, except for this one horrendous trait. Is divorce the answer?

D,

Wow, I'm glad you found us here at MB. You may get more responses if this were on a separate thread you start. People here are very compassionate to new posters and will do all they can to support and advise.

Read all you can here; get Surviving An Affair. At least here with us you'll see you're not alone. Blessings, CSue

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