I found out 3 weeks ago that WH was still continuing A with OW. He had promised it was over and even written a NC letter. I suggested we remain apart for a while to think things over clearly. He has been staying at his moms for the period, visiting twice a day to see the kids. He has said repeatedly that it would be my decision whether to divorce or not. I didn't talk to him about the subject at all until 2 days ago. I told him that I was willing to talk the marriage over and try to salvage it provided the A was completely over and that I was the only woman in his life. He said the A was suspended and that if we were to reconcile he would not see or talk to OW and she would get on with her life, but that if we were to divorce he would probably see her. He said that when his emotions were in rule, 95% of the time he wanted his marriage to continue but he also thought that too much damage had taken place and was worried whether it was salvageable. He said he wasn't ready to come back home yet but he wasn't going to get a place for himself yet either. He said he wished to aggree with me on every topic including divorce if it came to that although he hoped not. He has been very withdrawn and quiet since this conversation. I suspect he was deep down hoping I would ask for a divorce and maybe slightly disappointed. Now I am waiting to see what he will do next. He has not seen OW who lives in another city since exposure of A again. I do not know if they are talking or not. He has lied about this subject so many times I don't know what to believe and what not. I also don't really know what he wants. Whether he wants a divorce or wants to come back. I fear that once our teenage children our out of the house he will just walk out on me.

me BS 39
WH 41
OW 40 divorcee, 2 kids
married for 17 years
two kids, S-16, D-13
DOD first time, 2001
DOD second time, oct.2003

Have you read all about Plan A? That's where you need to start. Don't take his fog talk too seriously, they all say the same things. Keep posting here, you are not alone, and you will get great ideas and support from those who have been through this. Also take good care of yourself during this time, exercise, get out with friends, etc.

Believer,
Plan A is when you are nice to him isn't it? Well he came by this evening to see the kids and he was very cold to me. He didn't even exchange words with me. It was obvious he just came to see the kids and wanted not to see me at all. I went and started to busy myself in the kitchen. That's when the kids who are real upset about the situation started to give him a hard time about what he had done. They told him he was completely wrong in starting the A and lying to us all and that they didn't want the family to be ruined and us to get divorced. He was in the defense all the time and trying to explain to his 16 year old son and 13 year old daughter his just reasons for finding another woman. They really told him off. He left saying that this matter was to be discussed a lot more before any decision was reached and there was no need to rush. He claims that if there is to be divorce, it will be on the grounds of irreconcilable differences to which his son answered, 'no! you went to OW and that is the reason.' I do try to be nice to him despite all he has done and he just chooses to ignore me. I wish I knew where this was going. Any insight from those who have more experience?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is when you are nice to him isn't it? Well he came by this evening to see the kids and he was very cold to me. He didn't even exchange words with me. It was obvious he just came to see the kids and wanted not to see me at all. I went and started to busy myself in the kitchen. That's when the kids who are real upset about the situation started to give him a hard time about what he had done. They told him he was completely wrong in starting the A and lying to us all and that they didn't want the family to be ruined and us to get divorced. He was in the defense all the time and trying to explain to his 16 year old son and 13 year old daughter his just reasons for finding another woman. They really told him off. He left saying that this matter was to be discussed a lot more before any decision was reached and there was no need to rush. He claims that if there is to be divorce, it will be on the grounds of irreconcilable differences to which his son answered, 'no! you went to OW and that is the reason.' I do try to be nice to him despite all he has done and he just chooses to ignore me. I wish I knew where this was going. Any insight from those who have more experience?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A is when you show your love for your spouse, meet as many emotional needs as you can and expose the affair.

As for what the children said ... well give those little darlin's a big hug and a kiss. They let your WH know in no uncertain terms that he is wrong. Good for them!

As for your WH being defensive, of course he is. He also knows that he is wrong. He may be trying to find his way back to you but is unsure if it is "safe" to do that.

You need to continue to show him your love. Meet as many needs as possible.

I hope that when he was leaving you smiled nicely and politely said goodbye. Don't lovebust after your children have just done such an excellent job in communicating their feelings, and I assume, your feelings.

Keep on going forward. You can do this!!

No, Plan A is not about "being nice". It is a tactic to get your spouse to end an affair.

See: What Are Plan A and Plan B?. It is best to work on Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor or coach who is familiar with the concept. There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls.

Thanks for your opinions.

My trouble is that I don't know whether he is telling me the truth about the OW. He has lied to us so many times I don't know at which point I should start reconciliation talks with him if it ever comes to that. WH came by this morning after the kids sacked it to him last night. He was going to pieces. Said he had had the worst night of his life and wanted to die. I told him it was natural for them to react that way and that they weren't probably going to accept the situation any better in the near future. He was shedding tears once again. Of course nothing to do with me, probably just feeling sorry for himself and trying to get himself out of this mess. He even asked; 'what is going to happen to us?'. Sounds real confused to me. He dropped by again in the evening. Stayed for about an hour. Initially didn't talk to me at all but later on tried to start a dialogue about this and that. Nothing about us at all. As he was leaving he told me to take care of myself and be well, and also that he hoped things would get better. He thinks the suffering should end, although I couldn't tell from the way he said it whether he wanted to end the suffering by getting a divorce or by trying to salvage the marriage. He talks in riddles. I think the kids' reaction affected him quite a bit. I would appreciate your comments on this one.

When his actions and words have been consistent for some months youwill start learning to trust him again. If that never happens...well, don't trust him.

Do you understand Harley's plan for recovery? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5061_qa.html

In PLAN A it is important to begin meeting the primary emotional needs of your WS. What are the emotional needs which you have not been meeting that created the atmosphere for the A? I did this during PLAN A. I began to give my WH ADMIRATION, ATTENTION, SF and worked on my PHYSICAL ATTRACTION. I have continued to focus on meeting these needs which the OW were meeting when he was in the A. He realizes now that I will not change back to the person that I was. I will continue to meet his needs. He is IN LOVE with me again.

Read the article that Steve Harley wrote: "Is your spouse IN LOVE with you. He speaks about this. All read up more on PLAN A.

He is most likely continuing to see the OW. He sounds like he is in the fog. Try not to focus on that. Focus on yourself and what you need to do. Believe me I know the pain you are feeling. Last December I remember coming to this site on those weekends when he left me to be with her. I was in so much pain.

However, all you can do is to focus on yourself. I had to learn the hard way that I can't control him. It will be up to your WH to end the A. It is hard though because it is like an addiction.

Hang in there!!!

mimi1254,
Is plan A supposed to start after he ends the A, how do you treat him whilst you are still not sure whether he is in or out of the A? I heard from a very close friend of his that he called him the other day and said that he was thinking about coming back home. He expressed his concern for our daughter as his reason. I don't quite think that that is the right reason. I want him to want to come back for me. My friend said that he was trying to find some noble reason so that he wouldn't look like he accepts complete guilt. I think WH needs psychiatric treatment. They say that after an age people don't change their attitude and behaviour. I don't know how this will work if he is unable to make certain changes as well. I am willing to try to meet his needs but he seems to want to have complete domination and say in all matters in the house relating to the kids and everything whatsoever. He cannot accept not having his way all the time. In my opinion we do not have any major problems but he comes up with all these excuses in order to justify his A. I think if he can quit OW we will be able to salvage this mess. Another point which troubles me is how the OW is viewing the situation. I mean do they keep trying to keep the WH or do they just let go if they realize the M is not going to end?
advice appreciated.

PLAN A is done while he is still involved in the A. It is YOUR PLAN to try to get him to end the A.

Read my last post again and try to do exactly what I suggest.

I wish you the best.

Take Care.

YAY: If you read SAA, you will realize why Harley says it doesn't matter WHY they are willing to work on the marriage, as long as once they start working on it they do the right things. Please read it. That, and a lot of other good resources are referenced in the link in my signature line. I think it is worth reading, or I wouldn't have put it together.

Thanks guys,

A very close friend of his told me that WH had called him and told him that he was thinking of coming back home. Following that event he has made no such comment to me or event hinted to any kind of inclination either way. Yesterday he called the kids and asked them what their plans were. The kids said not much, probably will visit grandparents. He sounded down and depressed. When S asked him what he was doing he said nothing and asked S if he had any suggestions. S told him to call me and nicely ask me for lunch so we could have a family sunday. Apparently he jumped on the idea and within 2 minutes called me. I told him it would be nice and the kids would enjoy it so we all went out to lunch at a pub. The kids chatted away but there was no talk about us at all. He has been very silent about this topic and it is making me very anxious not knowing what he intends to do or what it is that he really wants. I have been nice and polite to him eventhough I find it very difficult to do so especially when I think of the OW and his A. There seems to be a civil dialogue between us but I worry that maybe he is trying to establish that and then get a 'civil' divorce on his terms.

Yay,

I can relate to much of your story, while my H was having his A, he also came up with many strange complaints about me and our M. It was really bizarre at the time bc many of his points seemed so meaningless and just plain stupid. Of course he had no comments about himself and at the time accepted no responsibility for any of these "problems" now, I was not a perfect W, and had a way of being emotionally unavailable, this was true. During the A often he seemed sooo cold and distant, it hurt me so deeply and was so unlike him, yet he kept coming around. He was all over the map on everything. It was so exasperating. Constant mixed messages. He refused to tell me the truth about his A, or even confirm its existence. Also refused to tell me his plans for our marriage. I begged him to seek counseling if he was so unclear about what was going on with him. He became furious.

Anyway my point is, he was in his A fog. I didn't have this site at the time so had no idea what was going on. It was like a clone that looked like my H had showed up one day. IMHO his cold treatment were his feelings of guilt, as was all his strange complaints about me. He was trying to justify his behavior and hurting me by acting like some cold stranger. Others here have mentioned the A fog. I am sure this is what is going on here, you cannot take anything he says right now to heart. It is as if they have an A handbook of what to say, as they all seem to say the same types of things. If he was really sure he wanted out he would take the steps to make that happen. Obviously the OW is not meeting all of his EN, but as hard as it may be to hear, either are you. The people here are giving you good advice.

Have you read all the information available on this site. If not, I highly recommend you do it is full of useful information. Once I found MB I spent several days reading and rereading. Time consuming, yes, but explained so many of the "why's" and what you can do. Dr. Harley is the real expert.

Good luck, I really feel a lot of hope for your M. keep reading and posting, it helps.

Help!

The kids are really upset. Today WH came by the house and spent 4 hours at home. S was not around, but D was. She spent a mere 10 minutes with him. She is pulling away from him and told me that she doesn't miss him at all. He had a piano lesson in the evening that is why he spent the time at home where he could practice on the piano. I was very civil and nice to him. I even sat and listened to him practice. He small talked, but very little. Nothing serious. At 5 he picked up some shirts kissed D, tears in his eyes, coldly said goodbye to me and left. In the evening I was visiting a friends house, he called home. Spoke for 40 min with S on the phone. S told him it had been a month since D day and that they would not accept parents divorce, nor would they accept him seeing any OW, particularly this OW. He urged him to patch things up with M. WH claimed that the problems were irreconcilable differences and that he was apprehensive about trying to make it work, because he believed all would be unhappy. He tried to justify to S it was ok to have other partners if the M didn't work. S objected strongly to this. WH told S not to pressure him because he hadn't decided what to do yet. S asked him how long? WH told him not to rush him, he needed time. S repeated that him and his sister will not accept divorce or OW. S was very upset as a result of this conversation and thinks that his father has no intentions of coming back or making up. One day he seems so willing to make up, other days he seems cold and distant. One remark of his makes you think he wants to come back, then he sounds completely the opposite. He also told the kids that he was seeing him the same amount and this was no problem. Now I am thinking 'are we being too convenient and making things too easy for him'? Should we be less available? I don't know what to do? I am being nice to him and now he seems to be relaxing into this schedule. WH must definitely be talking to OW. After his conversation with S, he called D on her mobile. D said he sounded awful, said he was not hungry, had no dinner and was going to bed at 8.30. Conversation with son must not have had a good effect on him.

It seems to me that your kids are too involved in this situation. This is between you and your WH.

I made the mistake in my marriage of not putting my H first and we both made the mistake of being overlyinvolved in parenting.

Plus, it's too much of a emotional burden to have your children involved in grownup issues.

Please stop triangling them in. It's not good for you and it's not good for them.

JMHO.

mimi1254,

I aggree. It's just that the kids are quite grown up, they tend to get involved by themselves. The thing is, WH seems to be swinging back and forth between staying or leaving and I don't know what to do or how to handle the situation. Should I just wait to see what he will be doing next, or should I be nice to him, or should I show him my anger and frustration. Is he just playing with us? I am really confused here.

I spent the entire day alone whilst I sent the kids off to the village to visit relatives with their grandparents. They had a great time and came back with big smiles on their faces. I think that they should be spending more time with grandparents who provide a very stable atmosphere. There was NC with WH at all today and he didn't get to see the kids either. He called S in the evening asked about their day, sent his love to his sister and me as well. I am of course thinking about WH all day but resisted the urge to call him. Since he has said he needs time, then I shall leave him alone and wait and see what he will come up with. Waiting is so difficult though. I get anxious and run out of patience. I wish everything just sorted itself out.

yay, your latest posts seem more relaxed, that's great. Many of us here can identify with the situation of a WS that cant seem to make a decision and sending mixed messages. We are all here at various stages in the process, to offer support, encouragement, share experiences, and give suggestions. It is a sort of group therapy, while posting/reading helps a great deal, it generally isn't enough alone.

I am wondering if you have read through all the materials available on this site from Dr. Harley. He explains the steps and process very clearly. You seem a bit confused about the plan A/B philosophy and execution. He has a section that explains this type of behavior that your husband is displaying and offers insight on all the why's.

Also you may want to go into the plan A/B section of these message boards to see how other people are using the techniques, and at what stage. Plan B is to be used once you can no longer continue plan A, to protect yourself and love for your WS.

It is not my intention to sound judgmental, I am trying to help you, as have many others who have posted to you. You have received so much great advice, links, and additional reading material suggestions, but it seems you have not chosen to use.

I honestly feel it would help you to feel more empowered, please consider.

Good luck to you!

xguzme,

You are right. I have read Dr. Harley's site and am trying to adapt it to myself, its just that my feelings flood me and I hurt so much. WH dropped by yesterday, was nice, S wanted to go spend the night with him, so I let him do so. As WH was sitting very comfortably in our lounge, he suddenly said that he was thinking of moving his piano to his mothers house. I said isn't it early for something like that? He then started to say things like, life goes on. let's leave it to time to show us what will happen, he doesn't want to make up because its a big risk, he's not sure it will work, he doesn't want to divorce yet, he doesn't know, he wants to remain friends and have good relations, he is contemplating divorce etc. I did get very upset over this talk because I was expecting some kind of positive mind frame from him in the way of reconciliation but it seems he is thinking completely no reconciliation and trying to get me to warm up to the idea of divorce. He didn't once mention OW. He probably has made his choice and is just playing for time. I don't know what to do.

All you can do is be the best you you can be. As others mentioned read the site, be sure to understand the concepts, apply them, and let the chips fall where they will....Improve yourself, and any issues about that....short plan A....followed by plan B......then by permananent seperation/divorce. Things are still early, this takes time to play out, your H is obviously confused, but that is normal.....does everyone know about the affair? If not, reveal it...IMO even if she is single, a conversation with the ow is in order too....just so she knows the truth, many times spouses lie about the BS.

I also think the kids are way to involved....it is very inapropriate for your son to try and control his fathers choices, the last thing you want is a reluctant/coersive recovery effort....and is extremely damaging to your son to think emotional blackmail is a legitimate means of conflict resolution. I wonder where he got that idea? He should confine his involement to expressing his feeling he would like his parents to make an effort at reconcilliation, and his father to stop the affair (because that is an unhealthy way to live). Anything further is inapprpriate controlling behaviour, your son cannot live his fathers life for him.

You are correct in determining you want the marriage restored because your H thinks it can work with YOU, the kids are (one of several) the reason to make an effort...but cannot be a reason to ignore irreconcileable differences, if such continue in either of your minds. Sacrificial marriage just breeds resentment and unhappiness for everyone involved, allthough it can be done, and some do for religious or other reasons, they just experience the consequences of doing so.

It is unclear what these irreconcileable differences are, (unless you posted eleswhere), and it seems your H is not being emotionally honest, and/or probably is still in the fog and unwilling to "give" up this woman, and reorder his life in a more healthy fashion....ie resolve his marital circumstances first. I think your fear that he may hang around a few more years then desert you is a reasonable one, given his behaviour, and that all his focus and concern seems to be about the kids....not you. Obviously you need counselling, honesty, and such...and he needs to feel safe too, not being held hostage to the kids...They are old enough that co-parenting is workable if both parents work at it, and remain in close proximity....but that effort (if it comes to divorce) is being harmed by putting the kids in the middle of this. IMO you should tell the kids you understand their desire their parents work out their differences, but that it cannot be because of them, it has to be for the parents....and that if you can't, it is best not to live in household of tension, neglect, anger, etc...and you are ok with that...and that they should focus on their relationship with each of you, not the marital relationship.