Yes, I don't come here too much now-a-days - pretty busy with life, really trying to put away my "old" life as much as possible.

In any case, I figured since slowly, slowly things become clearer to me, why not share - it's just one more example of a "success" in the making, I hope.

Basically WW and I have been separated for 17 months now. Back in the summer, I decided to "surface" a little bit, ask a few questions to see where we were at, deciding that based on the feedback, I'd make a decision I could live with. As might be expected with WW and OM in constant contact, the feedback was along the lines of "I don't know what I want - maybe some day". I decided this wasn't good enough for me and filed for divorce, knowing I did all that I could over 2 long years.

WW called me up, crying, stalling, etc. but still no sign of doing the things needed. So the process played itself out, she eventually got herself a lawyer, counterfiled, and we're sitting here now - my lawyer drew up a settlement proposal and we haven't heard squat on it from her side. So he scheduled a settlement hearing for Jan. 27 to keep things moving forward.

In our last exchanges, during the summer, I presented a letter to WW, that I want to give to her family. It's basically a "good-bye" note that provides some of my "truths" - without being an attack on WW. I like to think it's well written, heartfelt, and truthful. WW has complained that she wants to talk to them first - to break the news gently, I suppose. Of course, she keeps coming up with delays.

One of her "delays" was to imply that she didn't want me to send my letter, because she's not convinced our marriage is really over. Mind you, her words are somewhat laughable, such as: "I'm not convinced that our marriage is over. Which,
I'm sure, sounds crazy. Maybe I'm crazy. Holding onto a shadow. Possibly. I don't know." Fog talk.

I cut contact (again) to let her examine her motives and act. But at the same time, I've just come to realize this is not going to happen - an exit affair, a "soulmate" and constant contact. I was far beyond the point of being able to see us together again - ever - even back in September, when I filed - that's why I did it, after all.

Anyhow, about 3 or 4 weeks ago I went on a group camping trip... I carpooled with a really, really nice girl. We had a great time chatting, have gotten together a few times since then - we're very clear, it's about friendship. And I'll be honest, it was very refreshing and liberating to explain my situation - and have someone respond with compassion and understanding. I was almost surprised! And it's enlightening - to not just know, but see that I'm worth some pursuit, too!! I've known for a while that I won't have problems in getting out and dating again, but to be honest, I never had to really date at all before! I know that I can be very picky, and that I do need to work hard on continuing to craft a new life that would be the envy of most - that's the goal to strive for anyhow. Thank goodness we have no children.

Also recently, I discovered that WW and OM are now living together at WW's place. 6 months ago even, finding that out would have been very hard on me. Now - to be honest - I'm actually happy (in a demented way?) - they deserve each other, truly!! Apparently he had some surgery where they discovered some cancer. Now I would imagine they have a new reason to be drawn together - another drama, another tragedy to endure. I certainly don't wish him illness - but it's hard to imagine them suddenly clearing all the hurdles, all the truths that had been keeping them apart, in one moment. Maybe it's magic, however.

I had what looks to be my second last chat with my IC last night. She seemed pleased / relieved that I'd discovered a world beyond my lost M, and suggested we only needed one more check-up, in January. It was good to talk about the path taken - where regrets are limited and how I can carry on relationships without needing to be at their mercy. She seems to think I'm a completely different person than when I walked through her door over 2 years ago now. I know that the story for WW would be rather different. But now, I suspect IC will work with her in a different vein - which is fine by me.

I just sent WW a very brief note, basically asking yet again to please let me know when I could send my letter. I got a quick reply back - that I could send it in January, that she'd talk to them in person at Christmas time. Huh, nice gift!? (And if she wants to complain that "I filed, that she doesn't support my filing, etc." maybe my letter will help clarify the situation a bit... one line in particular: "At this stage, since it takes two co-operating parties to make things work, I realize I’ve done all I can, and it’s time to move on." Interesting too, if she "doesn't support my filing" - she's said this several times - I wonder if she shares that with OM!!? Not likely. A lot of truths are not being told there!)

Interestingly, despite WW and OM living together now too, her last message to me asked that we continue to correspond by e-mail - but that meeting in person would probably not be a good idea - would be too self-serving for her advantage, not mine. My reply? "I'm confused about how communicating by e-mail is any different than meeting, in terms of how you described it, so..." So I'm good with silence ensuing, permanently. It's kind of sad in a twisted way, to know that if she feels even a slight desire to continue contact, life with OM mustn't be "perfect" after all. But then I think we all know how that will work.

All that said... I still wonder if it would have been better to do this differently somehow - to get where I am now, sooner. I realize I'd be imposing a will on top of something that just had to happen as it did: it was all there for a reason, and I had to pass through the fire to come out on the other side.

I'm still somewhat embittered, I'll admit. I hate to think that WW will end up "getting away with this" in that she ends up with OM, they deceive themselves into believing it's "beautiful" somehow. Or if the ultimately unlikely scenario of OM actually dying within 5-10 years happens, could any man end up "replacing" him, given his larger than life status granted by such a tragic end. I know that such thinking is way too focused on her, not me. But I'm human - it's my feelings leading around my mind, at times. I'm getting there, though!

I do lurk a little, but as I said, I've found it hard to spend much time here - it's a symbol of hard, dark days - but it's also taught me a lot too. Maybe this belongs in Divorcing, but I've spent most of my time here in GQII.

I expect that in 6-12 months, I'll have done some traveling, maybe started to date more seriously, spending time with friends (old and new), and I want to be *doing* things that are enriching. It's all about goals and having a plan - another good lesson.

It's nice to see some old-timers pop in - WAT, Seahorse, etc. You go guy / gal!

Cheers all!

What? ol' 2long is just an etc?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

J.R., I'm so glad 2 hear your update. I think you've done an admirable job, considering the hand you were dealt. So many people don't get the oppor2nity even you have had - like hcii for instance. The WS just goes on 2 another A and will likely keep running from their problems for the rest of their dying days. What a miserable existence.

I loved hearing about your friend, 2. I know that some might jump on you for "dating" before you're DVd, but I know you better than that - people who've been through what you've been through and learned what you've learned are probably the least likely 2 EVER perpetrate the same kind of hurt on another human being.

And true friendship is such a precious gift.

♥ol' 2long

Oh 2long, you're definitely not an etc... But WAT and Seahorse have been out of view for a while - you've got presence!

About my friend, yes... I'm not wearing rose colored glasses here - I don't see her as a soul-mate - I expect to meet / date a lot of people - again, I'm *picky* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I have to start on a path, and I'm at the end of one, starting on a new one and she happens to be there, interested in spending some time together, doing some fun stuff, and it's nice! Very nice!

I think a big mental hurdle for me has been in simply letting go of my "commitment" to STBXW. I've turned off the part of my mind that would have me look at anyone else - even during times through this when there were plenty of eligible women prancing across my view. (I'm quite certain some talk must have gone on behind my back, questioning whether I was gay or not!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) I just couldn't do it.

Another fear of mine is that STBXW was truly my "best friend" and I hold such a person to high standards - I share myself fully, and others are important, but by #1 is just that: #1. Could I open up and be silly with someone else? Could I offer up genuine compliments? I thought it impossible for a long time - but it's not! It's just who I am, and I can bring that to the surface for good!

And so if STBXW came to me today, completely remorseful, wanting to make the M work, what would I say?

"I'm sorry, no."

The trust is gone, the faith is gone, and the love is gone, too.

It's pretty sad... She sent me a birthday card (Oct. 27), signed it "Love"... Gah, it's got to be tough for her - to have to juggle feelings like that with this "other" love she claims to have - and try to make it all fit together. I'm *so* much better off, having lost my love and respect in the way I did. I can *focus* now, to the benefit of a future partner.

She will always be haunted by my shadows, my Plan A memories, my patience. They will follow her, no matter who she's with. The truth is the truth, and she can't change it now. She can get angry (again), try to find new ammo - but I'm not handing her any. Even in terms of the Dv, I say, "Take it all, if you want." (Not in my best interests? Well, I know that reality will intervene and it'll end up being equitable somehow. Point being, it's one of the last things she could beat me with.)

And I'll say it again: Being able to be open about my past is *so* great! And I've got a feeling I've only touched the tip of *this* iceberg!

Hi J.R.,

It is good to hear from you - but it sounds funny saying that. What I mean is that we like you - yourself, independent of your story. It is nice to know your attitude is good, that you are happy, and moving on. Once you know it is over, moving on is the natural course to take.

It is said that every cloud has a silver lining, and perhaps it is good that you found out now, while your history with her is still rather short. There is probably plenty of time left in your life for you to find happiness in marriage.

I have to compliment you on your ability in your plans. Perhaps you were less than perfect? Maybe, but I think it was more than most could manage to do. You have my respect for a job well done.

I wish you all the best in your future, and believe you will be a very happy person. When the time arrives, please come by and give us the word.

After reading your story from the beginning, it looks like your W has been a classic cake eater. Always trying to stay in the middle and take from you both. Your case shows clearly that it is not what they say that counts, but it is action. When they protest that they don't want the marriage to end, the proper reply is: "then show me."

She was never willing to back up her words with action.

Hmm, probably enough on this one today. You are a good man, a very good man. I think you will be OK.

SS

*wow ... three-fourths of my personal mb all-star team all posting in one thread. jl, where are you?*

Hey JR. Well, I am and I'm not surprised. It seems your wife is so caught up in the 'feeling' that she doesn't even want to stop to think! It definatly doesn't help that she has an enabling friend cheering her all the way. But still, her choices are hers. She chose a difficult path.

Your path, in my opinion, will be sooo much easier. You're skilled and informed and know what to look for in a partner, and what to look out for! Picky or not, you'll have plenty of opportunities, I'm sure!

I'm glad to hear you're faring well. I wish your wife would have chosen better...since that means there is yet another disfunctional coupling out there.

Do you still have the kitties?

SS, as usual your words are very kind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Early on, this place and folks like you saved my life - possibly literally. I respect those who are in a position to continue to contribute - I expect that someday, after I've finished my final transitions and have found my new niche, I may be able to return with new and/or revitalized perspective.

When you noted that STBXW and I didn't have a long history - I guess you're right in absolute terms, but it's been nearly half our lives. It feels like a long time, a lot of it being quite good. It's amazing how a bad stretch can spoil the good, though. That's not to say I want to walk away, bitter. Quite the opposite, I feel like I can hold on to the good, up to 6:00 pm on D-day. How I relate to my past is still a work-in-progress, however.

"Less than perfect" is an understatement, but yes, I suspect it was "good enough" for me. I tend to judge myself the harshest, and I'm willing to cut myself some slack on this one. I couldn't do that so easily without my trials. I still do have some clean-up to do here, mind you.

In terms of actions versus words - how very true. I think most of the things I said or indirectly warned her about (e.g. losing me and my friendship), she never believed could or would happen. And now, it's either got to be the "OM's *so* much better" or there's some reason to be bitter. Better or bitter. How can anyone live like that? If she was trying to unburden herself (with me), it would seem the burden has only grown tenfold. Talking about building walls, creating illusions and living on a tightrope. 2long is right: I have no interest in constructing anything remotely resembling that. Knowledge is power.

Thinking about it some more... what are some of the signs I'm going to be good?

- In my imagination, I can see myself doing the things I've always wanted to do - with some gorgeous, young girl. (One thing I'll note that's kind of a nice ego stroke - my friend is 27, out-going and adventurous.) Next year, I'm seriously looking at Kilimanjaro, or possibly an eco-challenge going on in British Columbia. Will keep you posted.

- I'm doing stuff - with or without a partner. Before I knew STBXW, I had some ideas about moving to and working in California - well guess what? In many respects, it's as if I've gone that route, I'm here now. The past is present, but not a going concern right now.

- As I mentioned, my IC was SO happy to see me and my attitude last night. I was thinking to myself at one point, "am I going to be going to her forever?" Now I can see there's an end for that too.

Oh whippit, <collective blush>. Your latest update I could find sounds good - keep up the good work!

H4F! Yes! The cats are mine, there's no way I'd give them up. Since I moved a bit closer to my work, I had to give up my nice rented house and move back into a townhouse without a yard - so they're very bitter (and even vocal) right now. But when it starts to rain, however, they wouldn't have had a choice anyhow.

Ack, yes, another disfunctional coupling... to be honest, I hope they'll be happy. A large part of me believes that she believes she'll never end up married to OM - I think she'll be put off marriage, fearing she can never keep her promises again. But it's a drug, and now she'll get to shoot-up as much as she likes... creates a rather unattractive mental image. And talking about a lot of work - trying to twist reality to suit your selfish behaviors, indefinitely. I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

She resisted getting too close to OM for a long, long, long time - made excuses to live far enough away to be able to tell me that she wasn't moving to be with him, etc. And she's known that the cultural issues are not insignificant. Many people find ways to deal with them - but I think the ones that succeed have faith, trust, truthfulness, openess and respect to build upon. (Side note, my friend was in a long-term relationship with someone from a different culture, ended this past summer... Turns out those issues were a huge factor - a controlling nature just doens't mix well with most Western women!!! Gosh, I'm so not like that it's not funny!)

And this isn't intended to take anything away from folks who are or hope to save their M's... I was more than glad to be a participant in that for a LONG, LONG time. If it's something you want - do it with all you got. I'd be the last person to sell the idea of Dv as a "solution," trust me.

Well, ole J.R. bud. Fancy meeting you in such, er, familiar territory - double meaning intended.

I see ya, man and raise ya the $5 bet someone had on me here recently.

Not only are you gonna survive, yer gonna thrive. I promise.

I don't remember how close you are to her family. Do you really want to stay in touch with them after the D? Maybe it doesn't really matter. I say, either send the friggin' letter to them tomorrow - or don't send it at all. Take control of the rest of your life and stop letting her influence your decisions. None of this January, after the holidays crap. She had her chance. You gave her PLENTY of reason and plenty of time and now, as you say, it's over. Done. Fini. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. I thought of sending a similar letter to my in-laws, but decided, why? Why bother? Then I realized I needed to launder my shoe laces that evening, so that sealed the decision.

I see you as just about a year behind me. I bet you'll catch up. My life is SOOOOOOO much better and I've found a sweetie that has changed my concept of what a relationship is supposed to be. You will, too.

It does make a difference that no children are involved. This gives you the ability to never see her or talk to her again!! I would give up Jimmy Buffett for a year to have that! (no contact, not no child).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">slowly things become clearer to me</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And they will continue to become clearer. Just wait until you hook up with a worthy woman and apply all you've learned.

So, I say, continue pressing for the divorce and thinking of J.R. first. I would have preferred to remain close to my in-laws, but they chose not to, so, oh well, their loss. We don't have to prove anything to them. We did all we could and have no guilt. We did all the looking back we needed to do, learned what we needed to learn, bettered our selves, and the future is all ours, brother.

Let's go have a beer.

Dave!

Welcome to Hotel MB - you can check-out but you can never leave <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Do I really want to stay in touch with them?" I think staying in contact would be too hard, frankly - to hear about her "future exploits" for example - it's just plain ackward, I'd think.

BUT... they love me, I think they've held on to a lot of hope that it'd all work out... so I'm ok with saying something small. I never went out and exposed STBXW's A all over the place - and so this is as close as I'd come with her family - and I feel a need to do so, realizing it doesn't *buy* me much - other than just that one more ounce of knowing I tried to be the only adult. I even let her "preview" the letter - offered to let her *edit* it for goodness sakes - but of course, I simply recited the truth, and so no edits were forthcoming.

As for when to send... I'm so *there* with saying to *$!@ with what STBXW would want. But then I think... "I'm in no hurry. Why not wait a little and let her have to a) tell them in person that I'm an [censored] or whatever barnyard animal she prefers, b) she has *nothing* to hit me with." It really is killing her with kindness. She would villify me in either case, though, so it's worth considering more.

I think I've lagged for so long because I'm such an idealist. I seem to have faith that the best in people will come through in the end... Especially those who I've put my life into their hands... But... With the head catching up to the heart, I can see her and her antics for what they are. It'd be funny to hear her comment on what she thinks of people who carry one like she has now - at one time I actually believed we shared some values, gasp!!

Applying what I've learned... Wow, I almost feel like we've got an unfair advantage over most (non-MB) people now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Watch out, world <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, I really find the concepts empowering. I used to just glide through my R with STBXW (my bad + her bad). Now with someone new, I know I could stomp on the gas or hit the brake, and understand how to do that, what the dynamics are, and so on - and still get to enjoy some randomness obviously too - that's a given.

Yes, the future is ours... sounds like you're doing great. "What a relationship is supposed to be"... Wow, I think I'll learn more about that in time - I thought I knew, I really did. At the same time, I'm not content to simply re-create what I had with someone else... no thanks. If I've got to start over, I'll gladly hold her and myself to a higher standard. I was willing to do that with STBXW too - could have been really, really great... But I gave away 2 of my "prime" years for this cause - and it's definitely not a lost cause. I'm positive that deep down, STBXW has to respect me on a level, for standing up for myself. Heck, toss in my little "drive and chat" with OM, and I'm Mr. Respect for sure. That can't be easy.

A beer? Don't mind if I do!......... Here's to health, happiness and not being strangers! <gulp>

Well, well, well...

This must be where the oldtimers hang out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hey JR...

Like you, I have endured a lengthy (20-months and counting) separation but we have now gotten down to the nitty gritty of divorce...

You sound like you are headed in the right direction and I know how you feel regarding the "did all I can do."

I feel the same way and now, reluctantly, it's time to move on.

No OM left here (he's long gone) just a WW who tells me she doesn't know how to fix things and that they are probably too broken to be fixed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Like you I have a family of in-laws I love and who love me and who are perplexed by all of this...my only suggestion to you (and it is just that--a suggestion) is to think about what you want to send them in a letter. If it rips on your W, well she is still their family and I am not sure how well it would be received. Sometimes less is more and, while I have been tempted to say some things, my exit from my former in-laws will be with head held high and no recriminations.

But we're all different and you know your situation best.

Good to hear you are hanging in there and, like you, I seldom post or visit here...but it's always good to catch up with someone who has their life headed in a positive direction.

Take care,

E

E, thanks for stopping by, beers are being served!

In terms of the letter being an attack... I hope it isn't. It's pretty short, I'll even include it here.

I gave STBXW a chance to see it a while ago, and her response was "I guess it's okay". And I figure I leave enough things to the imagination that they should be able to infer what's important.

It sounds like your W has built up her justifications (i.e. "it's too broken") so that she doesn't have to blame *anyone*, wow, how convenient! (Translation: I don't *feel* like making things right.)

Oh well, the best revenge is a life well lived.


Dear Family XX,

I don’t even know where to begin. I realize it’s been so long since we’ve talked – it’s been hard to figure out what to say. (“So, how’s the weather?” seems kind of out-of-place in the midst of all this.)

In terms of how we got to where we are… there are two sides to every story, of course. I don’t really feel like it’s my place to sell my side of things at all – I’m not here to undermine your relationship with your daughter, sister, granddaughter, who will be part of your lives forever. (At the same time, I’m certainly not prepared to lie about anything to anyone either.)

Instead, I have to live with a peace I’ve found in myself, a comfort in my growth, path and unchanging truth. I’ve had a few of what I’d call “defining moments” during this which proved some measure of strength and respect, I hope.

I held on for more than two long years, and have come a long ways myself. I feel like if I absolutely had to go through all this, I had to “do it right” – not like there IS such a thing, but I had to try. Part of my time was spent trying to address any of the “shortcomings” that may have been between us, part of it was spent maintaining some distance to protect my feelings for WW. I can’t claim I did either perfectly, but all I could do was try.

At this stage, since it takes two co-operating parties to make things work, I realize I’ve done all I can, and it’s time to move on.

It tears away a part of me, and that’s one of the reasons I’ve found it hard to say (or do) anything for a long time now. But I felt it was important to say something directly to you guys, having asked for your permission to marry just over 10 years ago now. Know that I’ll be okay.

I’ve got to admit that I’m not out to hold grudges, but it’s also very hard to pretend that WW and I can get by as “just friends” in the years ahead – there’s a line that’s pretty hard to “uncross,” and that’s why I’ve had to become very sure of my course with time and questions. I’m not jaded at what’s possible – but hopeful, likely less naïve, and proactive - even proud in some ways.

You’ve been so very good to me, and I wish it were easier on this road. Know that you’re part of my heart forever.

Not being one to sit around, I’ve taken to the mountains, the sea and the sky. I hope to stand on the top of Kilimanjaro shortly and if I lose my sanity, maybe even something bigger, someday. And I’ve met a lot of nice people who make optimism and self-respect easy. But no matter what I’m doing, my roots are always present – “dinner” will always be “supper,” and so on!

The cats are doing well, they enjoyed a yard for a while and I expect to find them one again as soon as I can. They’re my little buddies - I wish I could take them more places – too bad they’d hate it!

Please take care of yourselves, all my love,
JR

Hey JR...

I see the letter you plan to send to your in-laws is pretty straight forward. I wonder why your WW wants you to wait?

You are exactly right in interpreting my W's comments about not really "wanting/feeling" like doing anything to make things right.

Well, as we know you can't make anyone "want" to do anything.

I guess I am like you in that I think I had to go thru all this for as long as I have for myself...it's all part of some process that gets you from point A to point B and for someof us the process takes longer. It doesn't make life any easier but perhaps it adds to the understanding...

I figure there's still lots to learn, yeou know?

Hang in there

E

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

J.R.:

That's an excellent letter. I agree with Elad, I don't see why even your STBXW would care when you send it. WELL before Christmas seems like a better time, even, than after.

But it is your choice. You'll do what's right for you.

...my beer's empty. Where's the fridge?
-ol' 2long