</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My gut and heart are telling me to not implement Plan B at this time, but rather just wait things out for a bit, work on me and the kids and be patient.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usually your gut instinct is the best advice you can get. It took me a long time to learn to trust mine, but now that I do, it rarely fails. And when I fight it, I usually end up failing miserably.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I definitely do not want to alienate him further; especially since he has opened that door a crack </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the same time, you don't want to enable him. Set appropriate boundaries for yourself, know why you're setting these boundaries and stick to them. Don't second guess yourself when he attempts to push the boundary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My oldest daughter said last nights visit w/WH, she didn't get to spend much time w/him cuz OW's DD wanted my DD to play with her all night. My DD said things w/ OW's DD were fun/good at first, but things are different now; she's bossy, pinching and hitting still (spoiled little brat). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, it's starting. OW's DD is starting to exhibit behaviors that she is angry about the situation. Assuming she had a somewhat of a father/daughter relationship, she probably perceives your H as the reason her parents are not together anyomore. Consequently, she is subconciously trying to cause as much upset as she can in the household with the idea if she does, your H will leave and mommy and daddy will get back together. Unless H and OW have POJA'd a parenting arrangement that includes boundary setting and consequences for all the children, (I doubt they do) I guarantee you this situation will get worse before it gets better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Either way, if things don't improve w/my DD on this, I may ask DD if she would like me to talk to WH about this issue for her. Probably not good idea, but someone has to let WH know what/how DD is feeling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not talk to WH about this issue, details, etc. Just encourage him to talk with DD. DD has to learn she must assert herself where her feelings are concerned and you cannot fight her battles for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am painfully at that crossroad in this mess, and I just feel that I should follow my heart which says not to go NC, but rather be patient and strong and faithful and trusting in God to heal both our hearts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When in doubt, do nothing. Pray, give it time, things will come about on their own when God wills it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope you understand my struggle even though you have helped me tremendously come this far.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still plan to give WH the prayer/love letter, but maybe for Christmas or maybe just hold onto it for a while longer until I see a thin spot in the FOG if/when that happens. This is what my gut and heart are telling me to do even though it may seem illogical according to SAA.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rule 1: When in doubt, do nothing.
Rule 2: Go with your gut. I don't think you can apply logic to something like this. [/QUOTE]

These two rules have never failed me. When it's time, everything will work out the way God intends it to.

Peace.

Thanks Mimi and Pep,

I have that book title written down on my list of books to get. I have heard so much about it that your guys' .02 of advice to get it is pushing me now to get it ASAP.

Mimi, as for your statement below:
It is about giving the OW chance to meet all of his ENs. He has to see that she will fail.

Currently, I do not feel that I am meeting any of his EN right now and haven't since mid-Sept. The only contact or thing I have w/him is the kid exchanges and that's it. Since he does not seem to want to talk to me or be with me, I have not had the opportunity to even try to meet his needs, except for the one conversation we had the night b/4 Turkey Day when he requested more joint physical custody proposal. So in essence, I am sort of doing a modified Plan B and only limiting my communication and contact w/WH to kid issues only. Now what do you think, having knowledge of this? Thanks for your opinions and advice on the book and faith in God.

FF
.

Faith 1960,

I didn't see your reply on next page.

OW's DD is starting to exhibit behaviors that she is angry about the situation. Assuming she had a somewhat of a father/daughter relationship, she probably perceives your H as the reason her parents are not together anyomore.

Actually, last night the OW's DD was outside in yard playin in snow and when I arrived, the DD ran and jumped into my WH's arms. I didn't know at the time that that was OW's DD. I thought it was maybe a neighbor kid. Otherwise I may have said hi, you must be... to show WH I am stronger about sitch now. Good idea for next time you think?
Anyways, OW's DD is an only child and it appears that she welcomes my WH and my kids as step siblings since she already calls them that. Despite this, my DD is becoming more irritated by OW's DD behavior and may seem to be becoming jealous that OW's DD looks at her daddy as a daddy and gets to see him more than she does.

Do not talk to WH about this issue, details, etc. Just encourage him to talk with DD. DD has to learn she must assert herself where her feelings are concerned and you cannot fight her battles for her.

I know; I thought of this. You have a better approach to it than I did. If things don't improve after this weekend, I will approach WH and ask that he talk w/our DD about it.


Okay, I will do nothing at this time and just wait and watch and pray. Thank you again.

FF

Faith1960,

Hi, about that comment that I said re: the OW DD jumping into my WH arms when I arrived, I was mistaken, probably cuz my mind was elsewhere. The DD actually jumped into the arms of the neighbor guy that just arrived when I was arriving.

Anyway, I know some of you said for me to not ask WH to babysit kids, but I just received an email from WH offering to watch the kids by asking if I need him to watch them for me for my meeting tonight. He is offering to pick them up if I pick them up after my meeting.

I don't have my meeting tonight, but do next week. He actually said he would love to watch them if I was willing to share the driving.

I would like to accept his offer, but not if his motives are purely to look good for our custody evaluator this month or next or whenever it starts.

I have never brought the subject up again after last week. He is. What is your thoughts again? Could this possibly be a tiny sign of generosity or additional softening of the heart?

FF

I'm scared for you. I'm not trusting your WH now that I have learned more about your situation.

It's because I learned from my FWH that at some point in his A he had a plan to start all over again with a new family. That relieved his guilt until he learned that he could not get along with OW's daughter. Sounds similar, right?

What worked for me was PLAN B. Especially when I went REALLY DARK as MORTARMAN would encourage me. All he had was his time with her and the daughter without me. Allowing contact with me enabled the situation because I provided welcome relief.

Just like FAITH says, make sure that you are not enabling the A. It will last even longer if that is happening.

You do need to trust your gut, knowing when to have contact and when to cut it off. It's tricky but do develop a PLAN OF ACTION. You're in a WAR here, FIGHTING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE.

Also, by the way, you might get more assistance on the Board if you change the name of your topic. Some people might feel that you are only wanting help from certain people. When I really needed help here, I would scream out by labeling my topic to something like URGENT HELP NEEDED. You can edit the topic name at your first post. I'm the queen of changing topic names. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Sorry, I don't but the step sibling bonding bit. While it may have been explained like that, I don't feel the children arbitrarily accept it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Despite this, my DD is becoming more irritated by OW's DD behavior and may seem to be becoming jealous that OW's DD looks at her daddy as a daddy and gets to see him more than she does. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. That is the (subconcious) intent of OW's DD. As explained by my counselor awhile back, kids will think of several ways to manipulate a situation to get their way. If OW's DD intent is to get her parents back together, she will need to break up her M and WH before that can happen. So she's attempting to create situations that will cause upset. The child logic is this....

....Since I don't get to see my F, I will take away time from step sibling F by demanding she play with me.
...If I can create upset with step-sibling towards F, F will tell M and M won't believe him.
...If I can get M to believe me and not SF than she will leave him and Daddy can move back home.

You might have to start journaling your kids behaviors to see patterns/trends. I know I had to do it with my son and once I figured it out what son was doing, H and I were able to parent as a team, rather than either Father or Mother.

Good Luck!

Remember though that YOUR HUSBAND is not a STEPFATHER but a LIVE-IN BOYFRIEND. I call it playing house. I think it's terrible for all the children involved for many reasons. He's just playing house. He is only responsible for being the father of his own children at this point.

Just trying to give you a DOSE OF REALITY so that you don't get mixed up their ALIEN, FOGGY WAY OF THINKING!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, I know some of you said for me to not ask WH to babysit kids, but I just received an email from WH offering to watch the kids by asking if I need him to watch them for me for my meeting tonight. He is offering to pick them up if I pick them up after my meeting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he genuinely wants to see the kids and it was nice of him to ask, but I think he's testing you also....I agree with Mimi...you don't want it to appear that you are accepting of the situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't have my meeting tonight, but do next week. He actually said he would love to watch them if I was willing to share the driving.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would tell him that you don't have your meeting tonight and already have plans (don't elaborate) with the kids. Let him stay at home with the OW and DD, or by himself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have never brought the subject up again after last week. He is. What is your thoughts again? Could this possibly be a tiny sign of generosity or additional softening of the heart?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said, I think it's a test on your part. Take it a week at a time and let's see what happens next Thursday!! I suspect he will want to help out again, but under the condition you share the driving. You could say something like:

"I know the driving is a hassle and I don't want to inconvenience you, so I've just gone ahead and arranged a babysitter"

If he really wants to see the kids, he'll drive both ways.

Good Luck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> Remember though that YOUR HUSBAND is not a STEPFATHER but a LIVE-IN BOYFRIEND. I call it playing house. I think it's terrible for all the children involved for many reasons. He's just playing house. He is only responsible for being the father of his own children at this point.

Just trying to give you a DOSE OF REALITY so that you don't get mixed up their ALIEN, FOGGY WAY OF THINKING! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AGREE!

Just kinda curious.

strongly encouraged my DD to talk w/her dad and let him know she does not want to spend all her time during his visits w/OW's DD, but rather w/him more.
Do you think the ow's daughters are really darling? Or are they just ow daughter?

Thanks to everyone who replied on this one.

Here it goes to answer back.


What worked for me was PLAN B. Especially when I went REALLY DARK as MORTARMAN would encourage me. All he had was his time with her and the daughter without me. Allowing contact with me enabled the situation because I provided welcome relief.

I really think in my situation at this time anyway that Plan B would backfire as it did in August. It would further alienate WH and make him mad. We are getting along decent, although not much communication going on anyway.

That relieved his guilt until he learned that he could not get along with OW's daughter. Sounds similar, right?

This may very well be the same for my WH. If OW D is truly a little spoiled brat, my WH will get sick of this. It already sounds like OW's D gets her room remodeled first and this and that before our kids.

make sure that you are not enabling the A.


I am being very careful to not do this by not giving in and not being at his mercy of kindness and cooperativeness.

You do need to trust your gut, knowing when to have contact and when to cut it off. It's tricky but do develop a PLAN OF ACTION. You're in a WAR here, FIGHTING FOR YOUR MARRIAGE.


I do realize that I need to sit down and write some boundaries down for myself and develop a plan. I'm not even sure myself what this will consist of.

Also, by the way, you might get more assistance on the Board if you change the name of your topic.

Good idea. I knew I should but didn't know how to and also keep the current info on it. I will try it.

You might have to start journaling your kids behaviors to see patterns/trends.

I have already been journaling including this stuff since August 03. You are probably very accurate in your subconscious theory of OW's D's strategy. According to OW's H, he and his D have a decent relationship and the distance between them is 6 hours so this will eventually get very irritating and tiresome to be transporting the D this far back/forth.

Remember though that YOUR HUSBAND is not a STEPFATHER but a LIVE-IN BOYFRIEND. I call it playing house. I think it's terrible for all the children involved for many reasons. He's just playing house. He is only responsible for being the father of his own children at this point.

I totally agree too. I even told WH in July that adding a 4th kid to picture was like adding fuel to fire since he said our 3 kids are too many. I did already correct our DD on the step thing by saying the kid is your dad's girlfriend D.

I think he genuinely wants to see the kids and it was nice of him to ask, but I think he's testing you also....I agree with Mimi...you don't want it to appear that you are accepting of the situation.
I would tell him that you don't have your meeting tonight and already have plans (don't elaborate) with the kids. Let him stay at home with the OW and DD, or by himself.

He may be genuine, but the fact that he will see them tomorrow for the whole weekend is what has me suspicious. Also, I did already plan to respond as you suggested. You're also right about time will tell when next Thurs. arrives.

"I know the driving is a hassle and I don't want to inconvenience you, so I've just gone ahead and arranged a babysitter"

"I know the driving is a hassle and I don't want to inconvenience you, so I've just gone ahead and arranged a babysitter"

I agree if he really wants to see them next week, he'll do the driving. Good idea for response above.

Chris,

Do you think the ow's daughters are really darling? Or are they just ow daughter?

No, I definitely do NOT think that OW's D is darling, just using the abreviations from the list for MB. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thank you to everyone. Will let you know how WH responds.

FF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He may be genuine, but the fact that he will see them tomorrow for the whole weekend is what has me suspicious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes. This was definately a test. Be very careful about trying to guess what he's thinking or what his reaction may be. This had more to do with him trying to assuge his guilt and nothing at all to do with the positive changes you've made in your own life, and he was testing you on it.

This is a great example of your gut instinct being dead on!!

When is H picking up the kids? Why not look your best Hair, makeup, new outfit, etc....and see if he notices. If he does and says something, imply you are going to a holiday party, out, shopping with friends, or something. Keep him guessing!

Faith,

Thanks for confirming my instincts. You very well could be right on as for the testing me part. I used to be pretty passive, but have tried becoming at least a bit more assertive and he could have been checking on that or whatever else.

I replied to him saying Thank you for the offer, but I don't have the meeting tonight, and I already have plans with the kids. BS

WH never replied back to me. Then when he called for the kids tonight, I answered. WH said hi BS, how are you? I said good, thanks how are you? He said good. I asked do you want to speak to the kids? He said yeah. After they were done, WH wanted to speak to me again. He asked what time I will be dropping kids off tomorrow night. I said by 5, and I said my thing (plans) got changed to 5:30ish so I may try to be earlier. WH said well, I will try to re-arrange my schedule and you may drop them off at 4:45 if you like. I said that sounds good to me. He said see you then, bye. I said okay, bye.

Why not look your best Hair, makeup, new outfit, etc....and see if he notices. If he does and says something, imply you are going to a holiday party, out, shopping with friends, or something. Keep him guessing!

I have already made a beauty apt. w/my neighbor who is a mary kay consultant. I haven't decided on what to wear yet, but it will be something WH hasn't seen me in or at least not for a long time. I am truly going to an event, and not just making it appear so. I'll let you know what WH reaction is, probably nothing, I don't expect any reaction these days.

He seems to be asking about my well being lately. I do know that this is one of the signs of fog possibly lifting a bit, but in my custody situation, I'm still cautious and neutral about his motives for doing so. I'm trying to not get my hopes up.

Also, I learned from my DD that OW's D thinks her mom likes our kids better than her own kid when our kids are there for visits. Interesting if true, but I have no real reason to doubt my DD truthfulness, so it makes me a bit more hopeful, and also very agreeable to what you said about the D's subconcious agenda.

Now, thats it for replying. I am going to take Mimi's advice and re-title this thread if I can get it to work. The new title will be: "Is WH's interest genuine and FOG lifting?... OR an act/ploy?..

I would love it if you would continue to respond to this new post. I will enter it tomorrow once you have had the chance to see that I'm changing its name.

Take care,
FF

FOREVER:

Having been in your position, I would recommend that for your own sanity that you try to focus on yourself at this point. Try to stop wondering whether the fog is lifting on your husband. I hate to tell you that it probably has not lifted yet. Don't trust anything that you hear him say or see him doing. Please just work on yourself. Folks on here told me the same thing that I am telling you and it was difficult for me to listen. The fog will not lift as long as he is under her influence. The A is like a drug addiction. It will be helpful for you to begin to see it that way. It sounds like she is dealing it out immensely, even using her daughter. The OW in my case did the same thing. She even told him that she would "get rid" of her daughter which ended up being a turnoff to him because he wanted a new family. YUK!!!

Hang in there and focus on fixing yourself up tonight and enjoying your activity.

FF:

Mimi's advice is dead-on. Continue to focus on yourself. It's all about you. H has made his choice and now he needs to live with it. If and when he changes his mind, we'll cross that bridge at that time. Everythingt that you do needs to be done for you with little or not thought about WH. I'm happy to hear you're going out tonight. Have a great time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He seems to be asking about my well being lately. I do know that this is one of the signs of fog possibly lifting a bit, but in my custody situation, I'm still cautious and neutral about his motives for doing so. I'm trying to not get my hopes up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember the letter. Revisit it and edit it if you must, but it must be sent sooner or later. You'll know when the time is right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, I learned from my DD that OW's D thinks her mom likes our kids better than her own kid when our kids are there for visits. Interesting if true, but I have no real reason to doubt my DD truthfulness, so it makes me a bit more hopeful, and also very agreeable to what you said about the D's subconcious agenda.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If true, this is indeed sad about OW's D. She is probably upset about living so far from her own F and beginning to resent it. I suspect this child's behaviors will get worse before they get better. Make a note to self to monitor how the situation progresses and you may need to discuss with H if he brings the subject of the kids up (I suspect he will) But don't go there for now.

Good Luck!

bump

FF: How was the party?

Thanks everyone.

The party was a lot of fun. I received an email from WH late that day asking if I would work with him to reduce child support payment for the next month due to his company closing on the day after xmas and new years w/o pay. All employees are allowed to use vacation time for those days if they so choose. WH said he had same sitch for day after Turkey day but didn't ask me to work it then. I initially told WH we could work something out; I have a few ideas. But after thinking about it, there is a court order for the amount w/no underlying conditions that he be excused if he doesn't get paid for a day or two. I am therefore going to politely suggest that he use his vacation time for those two days thus sticking to the court ordered amount. I also think this was yet another test he's thrown me to see just how far I will bend or how passive I still am. I need to stand my ground here, but I don't want to come across as a money hungry blood thirsty witch.

I'm glad I went to the party. I called my kids that night from the party. WH handed phone to our 3y/o DD whose first words were Hi OW's name, I mean mom. I was stunned to say the least, but put it past me since she is only 3 and it was honest mistake. Nonetheless, it didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside either.

I showed up to drop kids off looking mighty fine I may say. I believe WH noticed but as expected did not comment about it in any way. It didn't bother me which is also new to me.

I went out also Sat. night with friends. Met another new friend of a friend. She's going through something similar but not infidelity. We got along great. I actually smiled a lot more. Had a great time.

Found out last night from my kids that the OW got a puppy for the house (inside). My WH alwasy was dead against indoor animals. Now you can think of their household as having 2 FT kids and 3 PT kids and having 5 kids every other weekend. Should be very interesting. Hope my kids enjoy it like they do their kitty at my house.

I have an unrelated question here now:

One of the friends that I went out with Sat. night knows about this website, and just from us talking and him visiting the site, he saw a post and knew immediately it was me. If he could identify my code name, should I start to decrease and limit the details that I write on my posts so WH does not discover my code name?

I want WH to come to the site, but am not ready for him to know and see what I write here. Any suggestions?

Thanks again.
FF

FF:

Start with changing your signature line. That should help. Very few new members actually read back through the history of other members so I wouldn't worry too much about what you've already written, unless he actually looks. You can also change your name if you think he knows it. Most of us who have been replying regularly to your posts will figure it out.

As far as the CS is concerned, I think asking him to use his vacation is fair. If he has none left however why don't you ask him what he has in mind. This type of approach throws the ball back in his court rather than appear you having control of the situation. If you must POJA, I would not excuse him of the payment. Rather, draft a written agreement to reduce the December payment and increase the next payment or two with the December reduction.

Good Luck!

Thanks Faith,

I will try making one of those changes. WH was crying again when he showed up tonight to drop off kids. I told him I'm sorry, but I cannot reduce the CS. WH said ok, and immediately started heading for his vehicle to leave. I said to him I think asking you to take vacation is fair. I also said (probably shouldn't of) that I want to be there for you, but I just don't know what to do anymore. If there is anything I can do, let me know.

I know, dumb statements, but at least it's the truth.

Now I am preparing for the next challenge; Thursday's meeting. Take care & will update as needed.

FF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WH was crying again when he showed up tonight to drop off kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him I'm sorry, but I cannot reduce the CS. WH said ok, and immediately started heading for his vehicle to leave. I said to him I think asking you to take vacation is fair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does he have vacation available? Don't feel guilty. You did the right thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also said (probably shouldn't of) that I want to be there for you, but I just don't know what to do anymore. If there is anything I can do, let me know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not bad. Hold your ground and stick to your boundaries.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I am preparing for the next challenge; Thursday's meeting. Take care & will update as needed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What meeting is this? Have you thought about giving him the letter prior to the meeting?