Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime

Welcome to the
Marriage Builders^® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com

Marriage Builders Forums Our Archives Archived Read-Only Posts Inactive: General Questions Some help for a WS (Sally2003)

Print Thread

Page 1 of 2

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099908 11/23/03 05:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	Jesus That has to be the most powerful reading I havent encountered in my life. Tonight is the FIRST night where I have realized that I have hope. I cannot commmit to you or even myself at this very moment that I wont email him....not just yet. But I have hope for the very first time that I can and want to end it. God, I do miss him, his support, and I feel in this dire time of need for support, I want HIM...and thats NOT right. It is like an addiction. I NEVER want to lose my family. I just need to somehow find the courage to say ENOUGH. My husband, through ALL of this, has been absolutely wonderful. He has always been insecure, when men look at me, and he says he knows how men "are" and all the time I berated him all he was ever doing was worrying about me. I will keep a close eye on this board....its my best chance to get through this. THANK YOU SO SO MUCH.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099909 11/23/03 09:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508 S Silverthorn Member
Silverthorn Member S Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508	Sally Listen to LIT she can help. She is very caring. Turn to you H for comfort, you know that he loves you. I know his pain, and dispite it he Loves you. The only way your going to get through withdraw is to NC. THe OM stopped being a friend when you and he desided to be more. For your H's sake, and for your love for him, and for yourself, have NC with the OM. There is lots of hope for a redeemed marriage. But it will take both to do this. Whenever you start to think of the OM, turn your thoughts to your H. He is the one that truly loves you. Seek out his hugs, and comfort. I'm sure he want to help. Its a rough road but you both can have a much better M in the end. Start trying to meet his EN's, and start teaching your H what your EN's are. The ones that the OM filled, and all the others. Post here, vent here, seek support here. Read what you can. God Bless Oh LIT, Listen to your own advice. (See I told you I would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And believe it or not, you really can find happiness with your H again. Just look at some of the success stories on this board. Many times, you will find things with your S that you never had before. Many end up with a better M than before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099910 11/23/03 11:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505 L L.I.T Member
L.I.T Member L Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505	Thanks, Silver <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Was that a padded 2x4?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Consider it done.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099911 11/23/03 11:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505 L L.I.T Member
L.I.T Member L Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505	Sally, I'm really glad that you found some hope on this board. Hope is exactly what I found when I got here also. Hope and courage, actually. I will tell you this. If you do e-mail him, you will never find your own self-esteem. Most likely, before the A, you let your H build you up...(at least I did). And when something went amiss, you felt as if you were lacking - something was lacking. So OM came along, and he started to build you up. Hence the A. Now that he is not replying, you are again feeling like you are lacking - something again is lacking. What is lacking is your ability to build your own self up. You see, as long as you keep trying to contact him, or elicit a response from him, etc - you will be seeking outside support for your self esteem. What you need to do is build your own self esteem from within. One of these ways is to keep NC with him. Oddly enough, beating your addiction (hourly at first, day by day later, and then week by week, and so on) is one way you will build yourself up. You will see that you were stronger (even just for that minute) to resist something you know is not good for you or your family. And the more you do it, the better you will feel about yourself. The hard part is that with each time you do give in, your self esteem will come crumbling down again. My guess is that right now, a good part of you feels like a POS for the fact that you did have an A. So that has just floored your self esteem. After all, you would never have thought you would be in one. You probably never intended to get involved in one. And yet you find yourself being the very person you once chided. Been there, done that. The only way to get out of that black hole is to start doing what you know is right. I know you can do it. We all can. It's simply a matter of sucking it up and just doing it. And it really does get easier. As you do it, you start to see everything a lot more clearly. That will give you strength to keep it up. PS - and also think about what you would be trying to gain by contacting him again. What if he really did just send an e-mail back saying he wanted NC with you. Would that make it any better? Probably not. Or if he just doesn't respond to you at all? Again, doubt that would make you feel better. And on that chance that he did respond, and want to resume things with you? Then you would be back to square 1. The good thing about you being here is that even if you went back to him now, it will be different. You now have an internal conflict going on between what you know you really want, and what you feel you need in the moment. Whereas before you would have been able to supress the guilt by rationalizing why you are with OM, now that guilt, and the perpetuating feelings of knowing what is right, are going to interfere, and being with him will no longer raise you up. Instead, it will put you down. If you get a chance, and have a LOT of time on your hands, read the posts from Truly Madly Deeply (you can look him up under the Search feature at the top). He later posted as TMD. Believe it or not, when he first came here, he was completely engulfed in his A - he tried every single way to rationalize it - to stay in it. But as he kept coming back, his fog started to clear. And in the end, he truly found that being with his OW was not what he thought it was. He went back to his W, and now they are working on themselves. But if you take the time to read (because there really is ALOT) you will see he was so much further in his emotional involvement than you are now. And yet he made it, and was able to do the right thing. You can, too. Just believe in yourself. Quit doubting yourself. Have some faith in yourself, and just do it. Good luck!

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099912 11/23/03 04:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 576 R Rose55 Member
Rose55 Member R Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 576	sally2003, I'm another FWW who just wants to add 2 cents. I hope it doesn't sound harsh. Remember - I've been where you are, at the beginning of withdrawal from an A. I really do understand the pain you are in. My advice is based on experience and sympathy. From the first post on this thread, it sounds like your OM has already broken off from you and is trying to get back with his W. As horrible as you feel about that right now, he is doing the right thing by deciding to work on his M(arriage). Apparently he is not responding to your calls or e-mails. If you care about him at all, leave him alone. I know you feel miserable and rejected, but the reality is, he has done you a favor. Now you can get back to reality and work on your M, which you have stated that you want to keep. It will be h*ll getting through the withdrawal, and as LIT told you, that can't be done unless you have absolutely no contact with OM! Out of respect for OM's wife and children, and respect for your H and children, resolve to get through this and work on your M. As LIT wrote, self-esteem is important, too, In the first post, you wrote that you "probably looked like a typical psycho girlfriend." Also give yourself some respect. Determine not to be a "typical psycho girlfriend," or even a "girlfriend" to OM. When I finally realized my A was a disasterous mistake, I asked myself, "Where is your pride?" I didn't mean selfish pride, I meant self-respect. I realized that I hadn't shown any more respect for myself than I had for anyone else. It takes a lot of prayer, counseling, and sometimes medication to get yourself back together. Hang in there. Keep posting. There are people rooting for you. God bless. <small>[ November 23, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099913 11/23/03 05:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 676 L Lisa103 Member
Lisa103 Member L Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 676	LIT & Sally I am blown away by your wisdom and insight and I know that it hasn't come easy. I know that if we all had it to do over again we would change a log of things to avoid our mistakes, but look at the lessons we would missed. Out of brokenness God can truly use us to minister to others. Thanks for sharing. Lisa

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099914 11/23/03 07:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508 S Silverthorn Member
Silverthorn Member S Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508	Not a 2x4 at all just a nudge with an elbow and a reminder from a friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Plus, I'm practice swinging the 2x4 for later use. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Lisa, What you say is very true, God can use us all to be a blessing to others. God is faithful. God Bless

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099915 11/24/03 12:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	Hello; Well, I am glad I stumbled upon this board in a moment where I felt so crushed, panicked,helpless and low about myself. I have already, in 24 hours had the thoguht in my head that I may be able to do this. I don't want to lie and pretend that I don't have these feelings, these "addictive" feelings as I do right now. Even as I sit here AGREEING with all you have been telling me I should do to. The OM did specifically ask for this time, and I did fail him by continuing to email. I'm not sure what would help me the most right now though...do I need for him to get mean and write back and say "you have become too attached , its too much I can't have you in my life anymore" or do I need him to send me a message its over by not ever responding...OR, is it what I think you are all probably sitting there thinking right now which is I don't need either, I NEED TO TAKE CONTROL? It's pathetic. LIT: You hit the nail on the head once again when you said "you seek outside support to build up your self esteem". You are right. My husband has repeatedly said that. That when others build me up it makes me feel so worthwhile whereas i feel sh***y about who I am when they dont. Why am I like that? Is that something I can change. It's funny..it must be a pretty obvious trait I display because the OM even said when trying to edge closer towards the "taking a break" email...that he knew this was gonna be so hard for me being how I am and that I could be that strong girl without him. Almost like he could see i was NEEDING him, daily, to feel good and happy. I so want the day to come where I do see everything as clear as you say it LIT. Be out of this black hole. You are right, I can't beleive I WAS A PERSON WHO HAD AN A. It does floor me. If I already had low self esteem, having the affair, confessing it to my husband (out of my own selfish need to not feel guilty) and then contnuning it after I said it was over and now being "let go" has made my self esteem nearly non-existent. To add to my dilemma I have to sit and watch my husband look at me, cry and look at old pictures of me and him and the girls and wish we were back to that time. All this way because of my terrible decisions. AND TO ADD TO ALL OF THIS I STILL yearn to have that affection from the OM....for him to show me I was something and he does care. I really hate who I am right now. Not that it should matter but I have even let him down (the OM) because I couldnt just put my own feelings aside (by NC) and do what he asked for the sake of his marriage. This week will be a challenging week as he wil be back to work Monday and I dont know how I will handle the whole week (we spoke daily). I dont want to look at email everys econd, and yet I do. Guys, how am I going to NOT let myself down this week? You have all been SO great.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099916 11/24/03 12:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 35,996 Shrek's Swamp P Pepperband Member
Pepperband Member P Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 35,996 Shrek's Swamp	Try doing this: Pray for the OM's marriage. Pray the OM re-falls deeply in love with his wife again, and they are both completely happpy. Pray their life together is peaceful and blissful, and that they are loving each other into their old age. If you truely love OM .... then let him go into his bliss. You are an outsider. You have your own marriage, your own bliss .... and your bliss is not in the arms of another woman's husband. Pray for their marriage, a marriage with boundaries that you respect. Pep

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099917 11/24/03 12:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	I really do care that he is happy and i am trying to get to the point where I put my selfish needs aside for him. I want him to be happy. Iguess I thought he could be happy and that I could just make him "happier". I know that he cheated too, but I do think he is a good person...sounds contradictory, but I know I have always been a good person until this so I think the fact that he is scared about his feelings and that he has to re-connect with his wife makes me realize he really does love and need his wife, and not me. I am going to try so hard for both of us. I want to do stupid things like email one line and say that I am thinkin of him...I just dont want him to think that because I dont write that I dont care...but maybe he will think I actualyl do care by leaving him alone? It's all so confusing.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099918 11/24/03 01:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508 S Silverthorn Member
Silverthorn Member S Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508	Sally, The one thing you need to focus on is your M. Not the OM or his M. You need to maintain NC, I can tell you that it really will get better, you just need to give yourself the time to get better. Time, Patience, and Love When the erge to contact the OM comes to you, go to your H, share your pain with him. Prove your Love to him, maintain NC, go to him when you need his support. Help him, teach him your EN's. He wants to help you, let him. You will come to realize that he can meet all of your EN's. What you had with the OM was a shadow. A couple of weeks after D-day, Poe and I were driving back from a road trip. We passed by where she and the OM met. She was in pain. I comforted her, I held her as she cried. I won't tell you it didn't hurt, but I was also glad I was there to comfort her. Let your H do the same. He Loves you, and he wants you to heal. We will be praying for you. PS: When these erges hit, pray first for help, then go to H. Prayer does help. <small>[ November 24, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099919 11/24/03 02:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	I have a question. I deeply love and care form my husband but because I was greatly enjoying that "spark" and "Rush" the OM gave me, I seemed somewhere in this mess to have lost that for my H. Does that mean I am not "in love" with my H or does that merely mean the infatuation with the OM just overshadows my love for my H right now? I do know I never want my little family to be apart,ever. I know I care alot abot my H and that I dont think he deserves any of this hurt. The way I felt with the OM , the little things he said to me to build me up, how he thougth I was so awesome....how do i teach my H to give me that and will I feel as "fufilled" when it comes from my husband and not the OM? I beleive my low self esteem has played a larger factor in this mess then the fact that my husband wasnt giving me the attention I needed. Is it possible that I had this affair because I feel not good enough and that it had nothing to do with what my H wasn't giving me? I want to feel that magic and spark and those feelings I have when I talk to the OM with my H. How do we get there? silver..I read the story on Poe...very sad. I will pray for you both, as well as myself.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099920 11/24/03 03:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508 S Silverthorn Member
Silverthorn Member S Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508	Most people will tell you that Love is really a verb and not a feeling. Its a choice that you make. As for your question, yes I think you can. I'll have to think about how to answer, my mind is so fuzzy right now I can't really think, Poe and I were untangling about 7 skeens of yarn. My fault, I moved it a while ago, and it got all messed up, and I'm really tired. But for the simple answer Yes, I think you will find in your H everything the OM was giving you and more. With your H, there won't be any quilt involved, it will be a more pure and honest love and feeling. Good night and God Bless. <small>[ November 24, 2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099921 11/24/03 05:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	So, are you implying that love is a choice? I find it so very difficult to shut off feelings....to compartmentalize...very difficult. Maybe you are right...I don't seem to have lots of answers at this point so maybe that is so. Regradless, this really sucks. Have a good night.

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099922 11/24/03 09:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,950 T T00MuchCoffeeMan Member
T00MuchCoffeeMan Member T Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,950	Sally here's something that you might be interested in (I hope it helps): </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marriage and the Family Affairs Mean Don’t Mean Your Marriage is Bad Do you think you had an affair because your marriage was bad? Here's a little test you can try at home. Ask yourself when it was that you had the lowest opinion of your marriage? Was it the week or the day before you started your affair? If you are like most people the answer is no. This is not to suggest that your marriage or anyone's was always in a state of perfect nuptial bliss. But if someone asked your opinion back then the chances are you would have said your marriage was a good one and that you expected it to last. A basic belief in its worth and long-term survivability is something you held close and didn't seriously question. An affair is most often not something carefully planned in order to remedy a bad marriage. In truth, they usually begin rather haphazardly at a Christmas party or on a business trip, vacation, or something like that. Affairs can happen in good marriages because both partners are responsible for their marriage, but only one partner is responsible for an affair. Now ask yourself when you had the lowest opinion of your marriage and felt the greatest amount of doubt that it would last forever? Let us guess, during your affair perhaps? Suddenly you began to feel like you loved your spouse but weren't in love, that you were comfortable but not very excited, and you were no longer certain that your marriage would endure. Some people say that as their affair progressed they could "feel their marriage dying" as the search for happiness turned away from the spouse. Before long you begin to think that "real love" is outside the marriage instead of inside the marriage. All the while your marriage is engaged in a competition with the thrill and newness of the intimacy of the affair, something no long term relationship can really be measured against, and with one of its partners, you, putting your best energy and effort into the affair. Now the affair relationship has two people fully devoted to it and the marriage has only one, your spouse. Not surprisingly, against such competition the marriage slowly weakens or dies. The spouse is perceived as dismissive and uncaring, the affair partner as more appreciative and caring. The spouse seems remote or distanced, the affair partner close and connected. Sometimes you even begin to feel angry with your spouse. Most significantly, you are more satisfied with yourself outside of the marriage than in it because you feel successful in the affair and failing in the marriage. So what is now missing from the marriage that was not missing before? The answer is you. Your passion, your interest, your affection, your devotion, your honesty, your reliance, your faithfulness, and the fullest measure of your love are no longer present. Now, suddenly but not surprisingly, the marriage doesn't seem so good, not as good as it was before, and it has become stale and lifeless primarily because you are not fully in it. The distance you correctly sensed between you and your spouse is the distance you created in order to have your affair close. The loss of intimacy you felt is the intimacy you had to give up in order to let another form of intimacy exist. It is impossible to be intimate with your spouse when you are walling off your spouse in order to lead a secret life with someone else. The deception and secrecy of the affair, the sharing of one's deepest feelings with the affair partner, as well as the diversion of interest, are all incompatible with spousal intimacy. For in the end, intimacy is born of privacy, when you give up the privacy of your marriage you are simultaneously giving up the intimacy of your marriage. Much of this is the simple result of losing the sexual privacy of your marriage because it is so powerful in breaking down all other barriers. Many have noted the instant connection and powerful attachment formed from but a single sexual liaison with someone outside the marriage. It seems like there is no going back. Once you have let someone see what you are like in the most private part of your marriage what is left to hide? Soon the remaining areas of privacy are lost as well. Not only are your vulnerabilities given up, but the frailties of your spouse, the arguments you had, the things he or she said or did, and how those things made you feel are trotted out for the affair partner's comments and sympathies, however biased those may be. Your marriage is now open for inspection by an intruder, it is no longer private, and the intimacy you think has been lost is the intimacy destroyed by the affair. In contrast, preserving the secrecy of the affair actually builds intimacy with the affair partner and this begins to replace the diminished intimacy of the marriage. The affair and not the marriage becomes the joint enterprise, the place for sharing and building. People having affairs feel that their affair partners “know” them better than their spouses without realizing the paradox this presents. Their spouses cannot “know” them because they are acting in unknowable ways. Almost by definition the person you are having an affair with suddenly knows you better than your spouse because that person knows more about your life at that point than your spouse does, and of course accepts you fully. This feeling of being “known” is often the affair’s most powerful lure, even though it derives from the inherent nature of the affair itself. The more secrecy and involvement that occurs in the affair the less “known” people feel by their spouses because the ability to live in secrecy automatically distances the spouse. People also become more open and relaxed in their affairs than they are in their marriages and enjoy the feeling of being able to do or say anything without constraint. When people are open in their affairs and hiding in their marriages it is no surprise that they soon begin to feel better in their affairs. In the affair the partners can discuss their spousal relationships and even their spousal sex lives with each other but the reverse is never true, they cannot discuss such intimate aspects of their affair with their spouses. Likewise, they can talk about other things without the weight or consequence of spousal reaction or disapproval and feel more accepted. “Our special thing,” is how the participants usually describe it. Needless to say the marriage is no longer a special thing because of the new connection formed with the affair partner based upon the breaking down of reservations and the selfishly appealing enjoyment of talking with someone who always wants to know more about you. It is strange that people never seem to stop and realize that when their spouses first came to “know” them they liked what they saw so much that they committed their very lives to them and still would. How many affair partners are willing to do that? Yet the affair partner soon becomes more valued based solely upon this superficial interest, even though the interest is, in a very real sense, bought and paid for by the favors given in the affair. A patient once told me in a very revealing statement that it was more exciting and attracting for him to be “in consideration” by his affair partner than it was to have already been chosen by his spouse! The way he shifted his energy from trying to make his spouse love him, something he basically took for granted, to making his affair partner love him reminded me of the difference in the way we behave in job interviews and after we have been hired. We go from putting our best foot forward to confidently relaxing, and soon we also notice that the people who hired us never seem to reach that level of intense interest and careful attention than they did when we were only “in consideration.” We like being chosen but we miss the chase because it energizes us. Once this shift in energy to the affair partner occurs there is a contributing and reciprocal response from your spouse. When you are not putting all your effort into the intimacy of the marriage guess what your spouse starts to do? He or she gets the hint and stops contributing too. It is like taking food off the table and then complaining that you are hungry because there is not enough there for you both to eat. Throughout the course of an affair the involved spouse is sending out a very powerful but often subtle message to be left alone, to be allowed to have the affair without interference from the spouse, a message that says I can't be intimate with you now. Spouses having affairs want to do their own thing, closeness makes that difficult and also risks detection or the giving of a sense that something is wrong. The unknowing spouses must be isolated and kept at a distance, causing the marriage to suffer. Sadly, during the course of the affair they are often their own worst enemies. They know something is wrong but can’t comprehend what it is. Unknowing spouses sense their diminished importance and frequently react with withdrawal, anger, resentment, anxiety, depression, hostility, even violence, and in some cases an affair of their own. Unfortunately, these behaviors only reinforce the decision to have the affair and ratify the sense of justification and entitlement that sustain the affair. In many cases the spouse having the affair actually blames the unknowing spouse with an inverted reasoning that suggests that if he or she weren’t so neglectful or thoughtless the affair wouldn’t be happening, even though the affair itself in the epitome of thoughtless neglect. It is not uncommon for the spouse having the affair to actually be angry with the unknowing spouse throughout its duration and sometimes longer. This anger serves as both a badly needed justification for the moral implications as well as a distancing mechanism. The unknowing spouse gradually senses shortness, impatience, and anger, until he or she withdraws, which is the precise result consciously or unconsciously desired by the spouse having the affair. Now both spouses are headed in different directions. Both are angry at each other, both feel distanced, and both have lost the marriage’s greatest asset, spousal intimacy. So, short answer to our test is that bad marriages don't really make affairs, affairs make marriages really bad. A typical case is one of my recent patients, a thirty five year old woman married for 12 years before having an affair lasting 18 months. Her lowest opinion of her marriage occurred during her affair and her opinion of her marriage prior to her affair was that it was pretty good. In other words, she was like most people. So when do you think she had her highest opinion of her marriage? After her affair ended and when she was reconciling with her husband, even with alienating and hurtful effects of the affair now confronting them both. But the key fact is that this perception occurred in the absence of the affair relationship and during a period in which she had given her time and energy solely to the marriage. Intimacy grew from her confiding the details of her affair to her spouse rather than confiding the details of her marriage to her affair partner. To be sure this is no coincidence, only a reflection of a time honored truism, marriage is what you make it, or in the case of an affair what you are not making it, your primary focus. What is the point of all this? It is to recognize that marriage counseling in the aftermath of an affair is a useful component to reconciliation and recovery, particularly in dealing with the damage and pain it caused. But we should remember, and couples in counseling need to understand, that the affair was more a product of bad conduct and bad choices than it was the product of a bad marriage, and the marriage itself is probably stronger and in better shape than we give it credit for being. Simply put, if the marriage did not have more love, more happiness and more vitality than the affair, it would have ended long ago, especially given the self-gratifying intensity present in most affairs. Counseling is helpful to improve the way couples handle the challenges of a successful long term marriage, but in a basic sense, most of what it requires to endure is just the undivided commitment of both partners. Making a marriage better is always a worthy goal, but affairs are not really marital problems at all, they are personal problems rooted in some very deep-seated individual causes ranging from ordinary emotional problems, ego traits, substance abuse, and personality issues, to more serious neuroses and complex personality disorders. A marriage can't be affair proof until the people in them are affair proof and this requires curing the individuals not the marriage. On Marriage and its Reward It is an interesting thing that our creation from its earliest point on earth resulted in the presence of two sexes and all reproduction from that point required the union of these two sexes. There is no particular reason why it had to be so. There are other organisms on the planet that reproduce differently and it was certainly within the power of our Creator to have human beings reproduce in a limitless number of ways. Since childhood we have learned of the conception and birth of Jesus merely at the will of God without anything more. If He had wanted, presumably we all could have been given life in the same manner. So our creation itself comes from a union designed and favored by our creator Himself. We can only speculate as to why, but there must have been some advantages. All we can know is that it was our Creator’s first and only choice for humanity, and in addition to our religion most all religions and cultures revere the union we call marriage. In our church it is a sacrament, but we are not the only ones by any means to hold it sacred, even though it’s very essence entails considerable sacrifice. I have found it interesting that in the biblical story of the wedding of Cana, it was Jesus who supplied the wine. It is the only example of a miracle performed at a wedding and according to an eyewitness, John, as well as biblical scholars, it was the first miracle Jesus performed on earth. What powerful evidence this is of God’s love for marriage that Jesus would employ this power in this way at this event for first time ever. I have wondered if, at that ceremony, He drank from His own cup as He invited all to join with Him in celebration of the unselfish sacrifices the two marrying people would make as result of their love for each other, just as He would one day drank from His own cup and invite His disciples to join Him in celebration of the sacrifice He would make as a result of His love for humanity. Perhaps He contemplated his mother Mary as well, who also attended this wedding and who requested Him to do something about the absence of wine. Maybe in granting her request in such spectacular fashion He considered her sacrifice in giving birth to a son who she would raise to see crucified before her own eyes. In each of these sacrifices there is a giving up of one’s self. But why celebrate that? Who wants to sacrifice his own selfish interests much less his own life? The answer can only lie in the good that comes of it. Let’s take the sacrifice of Jesus first and the sacrament that celebrates it. We can all go to the finest restaurant, drink a whole bottle of the most expensive wine and eat a delicious loaf of fresh baked bread to go with it. No doubt that is a pleasurable experience. But does it compare to the pleasures gained from the small sip of consecrated wine and the tiny wafer of tasteless dough given to us as the Eucharist? In the restaurant you dine alone, at the Eucharist you’re invited as a special guest at a very different kind of table. Which would you gladly give up forever in order to have the other forever? In this case we are not asked to choose, but we all know the good that came from the sacrifice of Jesus. But in the sacrament of marriage there is a choice. We are told that to enjoy this sacrament we must forsake the pleasures of sexual union outside the marriage, and this is a sacrifice indeed. But like the choice above, it is a sacrifice worth making for the good that comes of it. How much better is the union sanctioned by God’s choosing and made in His presence than the one that we can only sanction ourselves and from which He has been excluded? How profound is the joy obtained by a lifetime of permanent commitment compared to that of temporal relationships? How much do we value the family that results from this union? Which would you gladly give up forever in order to have the other forever? In Mary’s case there was a choice as well. She could have fled, aborted her child or abandoned it at birth, all of which were common options in cases of out of wedlock pregnancies, even in ancient times. Surely every parent can appreciate her sacrifice. Marriage requires many sacrifices but its central tenet is fidelity, true loyalty above all. This notion of fidelity as required in marriage seems to have been a favorite of God’s also. His first commandment to His people was to have no other God. He further commanded fidelity to one’s parents in requiring us to honor “thy mother and father,” to one’s neighbors in not “bearing false witness,” and to one’s spouse, “thou shalt not commit adultery.” That covers just about everyone doesn’t it? Jesus commanded it also, “no man cometh to the Father but by Me.” Needless to say, He knew also the consequences of the betrayal of loyalty. There seems to be a very clear understanding in all of this guidance that for the relationships we need and want to have with God, with Jesus, with our spouses, with our children, and with our neighbors, to flourish or even to work at all, faithfulness will be a prerequisite. So we have a compelling instruction to live in a sanctified marriage of fidelity regardless of the sacrifice that may entail and we should not make the mistake of thinking that no sacrifice is necessary. Like all of the seven sacraments some form of sacrifice is present, baptism and the raising of children, confirmation and the sacrifice of commitment, penance and the sacrifice of sinfulness, selfishness, and pride, the Eucharist and the sacrifice of Jesus, extreme unction and the recognition of the sacrifices made in one’s life, holy orders and the sacrifice of devotion, and marriage and the sacrifice of one’s self to become one flesh with another. But in the end it is not the sacrifices that we will remember, only the product of these life-giving sacrifices, the greater good that will come of them and sustain us like nothing else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099923 11/24/03 10:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 987 L Lisa in London Member
Lisa in London Member L Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 987	Sally I typed out a long post and then lost it - gosh I hate it when that happens!!! Briefly, and because I hate tags, I am the FWS. I am now DV'd (August this year) and X (Pound Man) had a revenge A and is now living with Shiney Head (told me he was moving in the day after the DV). There are a couple of things about your posts that touched me, because it was like looking at myself a long time ago. I know some here think A's are very selfish, but I believe that more than that self-esteem plays a large part. Anyone that knows me would probably laugh that I had self esteem issues, but I did back then. I felt so low - I hadn't worked for 4 months, I had no money, Pound Man was living away in another country, my car kept breaking down and on and on.... Along came OM - a knight in shining armour. Boy did he help right then when I needed it the most. But Sally, it's fantasy. Your OM doesn't have the guts to tell you outright that he's ended it, but that's what he's done. Respect that choice as I had to when OM stayed with his W and 4 kids. I still respect that choice to this day, although I sitll hear the rumours of his unhappiness and he stays because of the children - well that's his issues not mine - and frankly the children excuse is such an old chestnut isn't it? I know the pain you are feeling. Every day OM would call me on his way to work, several times through the day and I missed it so much. The pain at times was unbearable, and I didn't know if I could get through the next hour let alone day. On top of that, I had the pain of Pound Man and his constant anger and abuse. You have a loving husband who wants to make your M work - don't under-estimate that and that he may not wait for ever for you to decide that too. When I first came here, a very wise poster Just Learning told me to give myself 6 months, to let things settle. In the wider scale of things, that's nothing is it? Sally, if you and OM are meant to be (sorry, but somehow I doubt it), it will happen. But surely your H deserves some respect? One thing I never did after Pound Man found out was continue contact, it stopped almost immediately, and I have to say those WS who continue contact are beyond me - please think of your pain and double it for the pain your H is probably feeling knowing that you have still been in contact and are now pining for OM. Write OM a NC letter. Find the info her on this site. I sent OM a NC text (before I found this site), and I have to say, I immediately felt better that I had started to take control of my life again. You need to do that and mean it. Get a copy of SAA and read it with your H. Book some MC and give yourself 6 months just to calm down and get things back into perspective. One other thing JL used to say to me every time I posted was - time and patience. Your feelings for OM won't go over night, neither will you mend your M overnight. Truth be told, I still have feelings for OM, which I hate to admit. But I respect that he stays with his W and family to work on his M. Take care Sally, please start with NC with OM. Wishing you well from London. Lisa

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099924 11/24/03 11:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508 S Silverthorn Member
Silverthorn Member S Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,508	Hi Sally The fuzzy brain is gone. Well for the most part. The article that TMCM posted is good. Yes this does suck, the confusion that your going through. Again you need to give yourself the time to work it out, have patience. Time, Patience and Love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Real/true love, ego boundaries, romantic love and feelings of love (also dependency) This was discussed a little while ago. You can all the Love back into your M. It is your choice. The best thing for you to do is your own NC letter and then do NC. What your feeling can't be turned off in an instant. God Bless Thanks for readin Poe's history, and thanks for the prayers. Prayer has helped me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099925 11/25/03 01:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505 L L.I.T Member
L.I.T Member L Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,505	Hey Sally, My H got home yesterday afternoon, and I'm not as consistent about posting.....wanting to spend the time with him (if you know what I mean) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> To be honest, Sally....at the point where you are, your feelings are going to still be very confusing. You have a lot of conscious and subconscious variables at play. Just look at your last post. You recognize that you get all your self esteem from outside sources, and that you need to build yourself up. Yet you keep thinking you want the build-up from OM. And if you can't have that, you want the same from your H. Yet you really have very little self esteem left at all (even knowing that you are still contacting OM)....it's all a mess, and you've just got to sort it out....one by one. First thing is NO CONTACT. I realize you are closer to doing it. But like I said, you just have to do it. You cannot heal if you are still pining for that affection. Take that one factor out of the equation (you know he really doesn't belong there anyway...). This will make the problem easier to solve. Second, make it a point to work on your M. Just like your H will have to take a HUGE leap of faith that you are going to learn from this, and never hurt him again in the same way....You need to take a HUGE leap of faith, and move head first into working on the M so that it can be what you want. Third, realize that YOU will make your M a happy one. YOU decide what was missing. YOU work on yourself to figure out what is going on iside you. Then TAKE ACTION. Find the MESSAGE BEHIND THE A. You want the same spark and fun that you and OM had? Well, the real point of the matter is this...my guess is you had something similar with your H in the beginning. Although you think (or rather feel) that it would go on forever with OM, that spark will always fade some - the things which make it fade are time, living together, marital problems, money, children....basically real life. But it doesn't mean that you will lose all of the spark. You can reintroduce it in times which you and your H are able to "escape reality" - ie vacation. Think about it - OM was probably an "escape" for you. No strings, no problems - just someone who made you feel good in the moment. Add in all of the regular life issues, and all you have done is trade one set of problems in for another. You want to feel the love again for your H? Well, you have taken the first step in knowing that it is there. What you now have to do is allow yourself to feel it. With OM in the picture, you can't. All you will feel is him. The truth is when you compare the two with your head, rather than with your feelings, it's a no brainer... Who is willing to stay with you even after such a horrible thing as betrayal? YOUR H Who wants to give you up for his family even though you have given him everything you could? OM Who wants to make you happy and to give their life to you? YOUR H Who doesn't give a crud whether you are really happy? OM I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. About your question if your A could have been because of you instead of your H not meeting your needs...I am a true believer that it is usually a combination of unmet ENs and a good dose of a fundamental decision-making flaw in the WS. Your fundamental flaw may be the same as mine...for some reason, you have never felt as if you were enough...at one point, you obviously did feel like you were at least somewhat enough for him. Maybe not everything, but at least decent. Otherwise, you would not have married and had a family with him. But something happened, and you no longer felt as if you were worth anything to him. My guess is that OM came along, and made you feel like you were everything to him...after all, you were vulnerable. So yes, I think it can be an internal issue with you. But it is probably combined with something that happened in your M that no longer satisfied that issue (when before it did). This is where counseling comes in very handy. Also explore yourself here. Lots of people will help you identify some traits and tendencies. Read over on the recovery board as well...lots of good info on both. And get TORN ASUNDER by Dave Carder. Cannot stress that enough!!!!! What everyone else said about thinking of the OM's family, his, your children, your H's well being couldn't be better said by me. But take note....almost every one of these feelings you are having....they are all about you. If you really look closely, you are still in selfish mode. That's a tough pill to swallow, but you can do it. Try to move into doing what's best for your family. You would never knowingly touch your child's hand to a hot stove....that would hurt like HE*#! Same thing with this - you are knowingly hurting your family now....it's really time to stop worrying about yourself and OM, and start worrying about the people who care about you. Sally, I have already seen you make a lot of progress just in these few hours. It's funny, but almost every WS who comes to these boards comes with the same mindset....me included. Then we get many 2x4's, kicks in the rear, and a few beat downs, and we are back in line. Keep coming here, and start doing what's right - you will not only be able to see clearly, but then you will also begin to find that you can help other WSs in finding the road back to their own M... Good luck!

Re: Some help for a WS (Sally2003) #1099926 11/24/03 04:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168 S sally2003 Member
sally2003 Member S Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 168	TOO MUCHCOFFEE; Thank you so much for that informative piece. You have all obviosuly helped me because I have not written in 3 whole days. VERY big step for me. I cant guarnatee I can keep this up. I dont want to fail myself. I feel like such as loser already with the way I have contacted and probably smothered him by this point. That may be what perpetuated the break now that I think of it. He could have been feeling torn , that i was WAY to needy for him and what he could offer. I just want to die...or sleep till this feeling leaves me. I want to be at that point where I say "damn, 6 months ago, I was so sickened and now I AM OK". I will continue to come here DAILY, if not more frequently to get though this. Thank you all..

Page 1 of 2

Moderated by Fordude

Hop To

Link Copied to Clipboard

Forum Search

Welcome to theMarriage Builders® Discussion Forum

Marriage Builders Forums Our Archives Archived Read-Only Posts Inactive: General Questions Some help for a WS (Sally2003)

Welcome to the
Marriage Builders^® Discussion Forum