Newcomer to MB, looking for some feedback, advice, ideas. Here's my story:

Married 15 years coming June, Son 12, Daughter 10. Marriage great till kids; we began to change and did not focus on meeting each other's needs, instead on family, work, and the grind. Wife appealed to me to meet needs various times over the years to change; 2 previous episodes of counseling, but I didn't get it...I just considered it to be complaining, etc. During 2nd round of sessions she first mentioned divorce. Wife has personal and family history of depression. In July 1997 I gave up corporate exec job to start own business to allow wife to concentrate on her career and to try to remove conflicts from juggling 2 careers, family, etc. December 1998 I gave up on self-employment based on wife's current emotional state, to take a job that would allow my wife to stay home full-time with kids. At this time she appeared close to emotional collapse; after this move she appeared very happy. This required me to travel extensively, doing work that I basically hated. Laid off in May 2001; took new local job with 40% pay reduction and a 2-hour daily commute. We've made up difference in income by liquidating savings and using credit cards, waiting for better times. Position has been tenuous the past year, and I have lashed out at her (verbally) 3 times in the period November 2002 to August 2003. We were in counseling at the time of the 3rd outburst, and she announced her desire to 'separate' at that time. Since that time we have slept in separate rooms, and her desire to separate has hardened into divorce, though when I ask for a reason, the reasons she gives don't make any sense, and change each time we discuss it. I am undergoing individual counseling for my temper, and believed I've changed in the past 3 1/2 months. She has ignored and rebuffed all of my efforts to reconcile, to show love and affection, and to generally be nice; she is not convinced that I've changed and thinks that its just a matter of time till I explode again. During this period she has found a full-time position close to her prior earning potential, and I can see her researching steps to create a separate household.

She now appears to want my stamp of approval on a divorce, which I won't do because (a) I'm still in love with her, and (b)I don't want to do this to my kids.

Note that we don't fight in front of the kids; in fact, we don't fight with each other. We suppress any potential conflict and just ignore it; my reaction has been to explode, while hers has been smouldering resentment and subtle criticism.

Her latest reasoning for the divorce is that it will just be better for everyone: me, her, and the kids; if we keep going this way, we'll destroy each other. This rationale is the latest in a series of moving targets, having changed from money, religion (catholic & jewish; raising the kids in her faith), and other issues, to the current rationale which appears to approximate 'irreconciliable differences'.

I have also been pulling out all the stops to try to convince her of my love and sincerity, and to get us to agree to fix our relationship rather than dissolve the family. I have pointed out that she doesn't need my approval to divorce, but that when it came time to tell our kids why, I would state that I was and still am willing to do anything to save our marriage and keep our family intact, living in one household. The decision to split would be hers.

This week, she agreed to try counseling one more time, but had no belief that it could be successful, and hoped that it would actually lead to my acceptance of her position and a situation where "the meeting" with the kids would follow her preferred format: 'your father and I have decided that we should divorce...', etc.

She also held out a possible trial separation, saying that this what she wanted to originally try in August, but that I wouldn't go along with it. This is true, since I think separation is just a nice way of saying divorce, and I think the time would be better spent working on our relationship via counseling. She then came back with 'Trial separation might be the only way to save our marriage; you said you'd try anything to save it, so why not a trial separation?'

Since I did say that I'd try anything, I'm considering this, in conjunction with counseling. I'm terrified that this might be a ploy to get me out of the house so that she can then go ahead and file for divorce, and use my leaving as 'cover' for decision to end the marriage. I'm also terrified of being seen by my kids as 'the one who left'. I know friends whose kids have never forgiven them for leaving, saying that they should have stayed and tried to work it out. I don't want this to be me, so I've said I'd consider it, but that I still want to tell the kids, during "the talk", that I'm doing this only because mom says its the only thing that might keep her married to me, that I'm working to try to show mom how much I love her, and that I'll be back as soon as mom decides she wants me back in the house. My wife didn't outright balk at this, but did say that 'I don't think they need to hear that right now'.

So...any information, feedback, advice, ideas, especially on whether or not I should agree to the trial separation, would be GREATLY appreciate. I'm a Marriage Builders newbie, who desperately wants to stay married to a woman he loves, and with the children he adores. I'm beginning to see the errors I've made and want to work on them and rekindle love in our marriage...HELP!!!!

Dear Bob:

Have you been counseling with the same MC all along, or have you been trying new ones?

Have you done the EN questionnaires and LB questionnaires on this website? I would recommend reading the book, "His Needs, Her Needs" which is available on this website.

I would also suggest that you try the Harley's as your next marriage counselor.

Good luck, and keep posting,
DB

Bob,

maybe these links can help,

www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.html

www.smartmarriages.com/badcouples.doherty.html

your best bet, is stay here at MB! Or do a search for Retrouvaille,(french word, meaning re-discovery) they have an success rate of 85% recovering marriages.


standing in Michigan
www.rejoiceministries.org

First question, is there an OM? Do you know for sure? you didn't mention that, but as the one, myself, that was the WW (wayward wife), your story and hers sound a lot like mine, only on a much longer time line - and I was doing it all because of an A. Just curious. I want to appplaude you for trying again, and again, and again. Most people would give up by now.

Also, as the one that wanted a "trial separation" to try to save our marriage - from my point of view, that's hog wash. If I would have left for my "trial separation" it was just my way to ease into divorce. I say that if she wants a trial separation that bad, let her be the one to leave, not you. (I have 2 children also, just much younger) Her rationalization that it would be easier on everyone including the kids is flawed (I also used this line on my H to try to convince him a separation was good). Yes, kids do get through divorce, but it's not the best. I agree that you should fill out the EN and LB questionarres, and try to find an MB that has a totally different approach than the last ones. And keep posting here - this site has already made a tremendous stride in starting to mend my marriage, and I've only been here for 3 days.

The other thing though, if she has her mind made up as strongly as it seems she does, it may be very hard to change it. I also caution you against smothering her. My H did that to me in the beginning of my A, (before he knew) and it only pushed me further away from him, and closer to my A. It's very easy to smother someone that you love so much, that you don't want to leave you. Hope any of this helps. Don't give up yet! We are all rooting for you!

Thanks to DazedBlonde, and especially to Stephan. Stephan, these 2 articles are right on the money!!! Our last counseling session started as family counseling, talking about my son's minor behavior problems in school, how our marital conflicts and my temper might have contributed to them, and bringing our kids into the session to evaluate them. It then "morphed" into couples counseling. Then, once my wife mentioned her intent to separate, he immediately shunted us into individual counseling sessions to talk about meeting our own personal needs.

Right now, I am searching for a 'commitment-oriented' counselor who will help us fight for our marriage, as opposed to helping us achieve 'self-actualization' after the breakup of our family.

Thanks again to both of you...I'll keep posting, and keep you posted.

Bob:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he immediately shunted us into individual counseling sessions to talk about meeting our own personal needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This concerns me a little bit. You should be trying to work on meeting her needs and she should be trying to work on meeting your needs rather than each of you meeting your own personal needs. Find a pro M counselor - call the Harley's: 1 (888) 639-1639

I would also tend to agree with Felina, but I didn't want to mention it earlier. Are you sure there's no OM?

As far as moving out....don't do anything you don't want to do. If it doesn't feel right to you don't do it. And I believe it's much harder to move back in that it is to move out. Don't do it.

DB

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: dazed blonde ]</small>

Bob,

the MC W and I are currently with, quite often C will make personal comments, and the majority of them, are directed and "against" me. I really don't think this is very professional!?
Her personal opinions, should be left at home, as she should be the last one standing, to assure the recovery of "any" marriage.

I was also infomred she was divorced years ago, her children are wonderful, as their step dad truly oves them, as they truly love him. I have also left the MC offended,by asking a "one" question,,, anyhow i shook her hand and congradualted her,,,after i was shown her cert/degrees, and where she went to college,,

Often times, i'm left "feeling" this MC is more in support for divorce, opposed to recovering,,, not good.

Do a search for an Retrouvaille progranm in your area, they have a success rate of 85%! I mentioned this to MC, i was informed they probably changed their sucess rate, for their advantage??? or visit
www.marriagesavers.org
or
www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

With Retrouvaille, some marriages have been recovered with just one session, others may/have required addittional week-ends,,
They have also recovered marriages with one spouse hating/resenting the other.
The majority of the time, there is always a draggee,,,and they still are able to recover.
http://www.marriagesavers.org/public/to_those_threatened_by_divorce.htm

MB also has counseling services available???

"Its never too late!"

Stephan

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

Felina, DB, and Stephan,

thanks again for your support...you'll never know how much it means. Then again, if you're regular visitors to this site, you probably do. May God Bless each of you.

Many people have also asked me if my wife is seeing an OM. I have also read, from my research, that this type of insistence on a separation is very frequently a sign of a relationship outside the marriage. I don't believe this is the case, but, then again, I never thought we'd ever get to this point, under ANY circumstances. But I'd have to say no. If there is, then I really don't know my spouse anywhere near like I thought I did. Given our schedules, I can't even see where she'd get the time to do it. I haven't noticed any long (> 1 hr) unexplained absences, etc.

Having said that...the insistence on my stamp of approval on a separation/divorce is troubling to me. With the no-fault laws, she doesn't need any reason to divorce me, I can't fight the divorce, so why does she seem almost desperate to get me to go along? She has to know that, as they get older, our kids will look back on this and make judgments, which she has to know will be less than flattering to her. It's almost like she's looking for "moral cover".

We've always said to each other that, no matter how bad things got, outside of adultery, violence, or substance abuse, divorce wouldn't make anything easier. We also remarked how we could never understand how someone could end a marriage and then quickly take up a new relationship. I'm wondering if, now that she's relaxed the first moral standard, if the second will be the next to fall. In short, I don't think there's "someone else", but I think there will be, shortly after we separate. I also think that her actions to push me away, which have grown more insistent and cold, are almost an attempt to get me to explode at her so that she can justify whatever action she wants to take in order to get out of the marriage.

I have made an appointment with a new MC, and will be firing the "Dr Kevorkian" guy shortly. Depending on how that first session goes, the EM and LB stuff will follow shortly thereafter.

Felina, you're right about 'smothering' her. I need to back off; that's one thing almost everyone says, even Dr. Kevorkian. It is difficult, as you've said, but the people on this site really help alot. Thanks again, and God Bless You.