My H had two PA in the past twelve years. He also started spending time talking to another female co-worker after OW#2 ended the sexual part of their relationship. This third woman works in his department (she is their administrative clerk) so he was talking to her at work every day and also got her home phone number. He had been secretly calling her house on his cell phone when he told me he was walking the dogs or running an errand. When I asked him about all the calls on his cell phone records, he first said they were "just friends" but later admitted he was physically attracted to her and wanted to have a sexual relationship. He told her about one of his affairs (this was months before he told me) and that he was in an unhappy marriage. He also complained to her about me.

I found out today that he is still spending time with her during breaks. She smokes (which means they have to go outside the building) and he recently started smoking again after quitting for 14 years. I asked if he took breaks with her outside while she smoked before I asked about the cell phone calls and he said "yes."

Question: Is it wrong (paranoid) of me to ask him to quit spending time/talking with her unless it is necessary for business reasons? I told him that it bothered me that he was doing this because I knew he was attracted to her. I asked him if she knew he wanted to have sex with her and he said "no, and that he didn't feel that way about her anymore." He promised me that he was committed to me and working together on our marriage. He said I just have to trust him and believe what he says. This is a hard request based on his twelve years of lies and deceptions. When we ended our conversation about this, I felt he still didn't understand why I wanted him to stop taking breaks with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Toofargone:
<strong>He promised me that he was committed to me and working together on our marriage. He said I just have to trust him and believe what he says. This is a hard request based on his twelve years of lies and deceptions. When we ended our conversation about this, I felt he still didn't understand why I wanted him to stop taking breaks with her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you won't just trust him and believe what he says. Only an insane person would trust an untrustworthy person. It is a ridiculous request that should not even be considered. You have learned that he cannot be trusted AT ALL and need to diligently protect yourself from him. He has to EARN that trust back and I assure you it will take YEARS to rebuild, if at all.

He should not put himself in any position that will leave him vulnerable to temptation and should end contact NOW. He needs to cease all contact NOW and look into getting another job. He should NEVER see any of the women he had affairs with again.

In order to begin restoring trust in your marriage he needs to take steps to rebuild it and to protect you. That means he ends all contact with his OW with a NO CONTACT LETTER stating his committment to his wife and his deep sorrow about his involvement in a sleazy affair. That is the LEAST he can do to begin to restore his marriage.

All three women work at the same company as him but the first two (PAs) are no longer in the same department with him. I know you are right about NC and he sent a NC letter to OW#2 at my request. The first A ended in 1992/93 and he has only run into her once since then, passing through the plant. I don't know how he could manage NC with the woman that is in his department. He is a supervisor and she is the department clerk. As long as he is working there, he can't avoid talking to her about business but it's the unnecessary contact/conversations I worry about.

Finding another job is not a option at the moment. I have been unemployed since being layed off two years ago and we are having a hard time making ends meet as it is. He has worked at this company since 1981 and we can't afford for him to take a pay cut -- we would lose the house.

I have thought to ask him if there is a chance he could transfer to another state - same company - but our younger son is a senior in high school and plays varsity baseball. There is no way he would agree to move before June.

I don't know what to do. I can't control his behavior and I know he has to WANT to remain faithful. It just bugs me because I know he was attracted to this woman just three months ago -- spending time with her could make those feelings return or become stronger.

He hasn't changed his behavior..he hasn't LEARNED anything about himself and boundaries. Yes..huge red flag..and yes..this IS something to take a stand over.

No more phone calls to her house, quit smoking, and more time with you. None of these things will definately avoid another A..but it's obvious HE doesn't know how to draw the line. Perhaps some counselling?
T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Toofargone:
<strong>

I don't know what to do. I can't control his behavior and I know he has to WANT to remain faithful. It just bugs me because I know he was attracted to this woman just three months ago -- spending time with her could make those feelings return or become stronger. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you can't control his behavior, but you can control YOURS. And you can tell show him where your boundaries are and explain to him that you can't possibily recover as long as he is still in touch with the OW. To stay in touch with her is nothing more than sheer cruelty and absolutely counterproductive to your recovery.

P.S. He has been and *IS NOW* having an emotional affair with this woman. Calling her a "friend" does not change that. He can't ever go back and become "friends" with her.

And if they are such great "friends" then why not bring her home and you can ALL be "friends?"

I didn't think I was being paranoid about his contact with this woman. I worry sometimes that I will become too controlling. My H just doesn't seem to understand my concern. He has been in IC the past two months -- I am thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his counselor to voice my POV about contact. Maybe his C could help him understand.

Here is a good article written by Dr Harley. Keep in mind that he is one of the most successful marriage counselors in the nation and specializes in adultery:

"Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Toofargone:
<strong> I didn't think I was being paranoid about his contact with this woman. I worry sometimes that I will become too controlling. My H just doesn't seem to understand my concern. He has been in IC the past two months -- I am thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his counselor to voice my POV about contact. Maybe his C could help him understand. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Toofar, the bottom line is that you will never recover as long as he is in contact with the other women.

My H is fighting me on this. He says it is like I am saying he can't have any friends that are women. That is not the case. The difference with this woman is I know he was physically attracted to her and was having an EA with her. I know he has to talk to her for business reasons but I'm afraid he has no plans to stop unnecessary contact/conversation.

redflag.....heck I would say its a four alarm fire bell.

I bet money he doesn't have the cell number or home phone number of very many male coworkers and the ones he has are ones that report to him or he reports too.

Getting the home phone number of a female coworker probably violates his company's sexual harrassment policy if it is not a direct necessity of the job. Most major companies now spell out pretty serious restrictions on such non business contact.

Another thing does he secretly call his male buddies on his cell phone when walking the dog?

Come on he is way out of line especially since he has had two affairs you know of.

I don't want to be a downer but if he has had repeated affairs that you know of I would bet there is a high probability there are some you don't know about it.

Usually the person the most likely to loudly protest is the person most likely to be guilty.

I'm glad you all don't think I am being a pill about this contact. My H has the home and cell phone numbers for a lot of his direct employees, supervisors, and others that he works with daily. I mean he keeps a list. I voiced my concern about sexual harrassment when I learned one of his affairs began when the OW was a direct employee of his. He could have lost his job!! But he never even thought about that.

He is no longer using his cell phone to call this woman he works with now. This stopped in September when he told me about one affair.

I view the cell phone calls on line and I blocked all numbers (incoming and outgoing) of the three women I know about. He knows I review the call records and blocked the numbers and says he understands why I need to do this.

Hi toofar,
I agree with the other posters, you are dead right in being concerned, and as far as trusting him goes....he has to gain that trust back. I would also tell him to quit the smokes and unnessicary phone calls seeing as you stated that you are under financial pressure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Toofargone:
<strong> My H is fighting me on this. He says it is like I am saying he can't have any friends that are women.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you are saying that. He cannot be trusted with other women, he can't be trusted to have women "friends." He has betrayed that trust. Tell him he is right, that is exactly what you are saying.

He needs to first concern himself with rebuilding the trust he destroyed in his marriage and he sure won't do that by cultivating more female "friends" outside of your marriage. You need to cultivate friends TOGETHER as a couple. Make friends with COUPLES, not lone women.

If he won't protect you from all this, then you need to lay down boundaries to protect yourself. He is laying an awful lot of crap on you and I would suggest that you calmly and civilly tell him what he needs to do repair the damage he has caused. Please be firm with him and make it very clear, ok?

Here's my view on this which I hope will be helpful...

You wrote
"He had been secretly calling her house on his cell phone..."

Secrecy is a red flag on its own. If it was innocent he could call her from home.

"...he first said they were "just friends" but later admitted he was physically attracted to her..."

This is better. If the attraction is acknowledged then boundaries can be set. Marriage doesn't prevent us from meeting people we're attracted to and we musn't pretend that it does. But it does mean that we have to resist temptation and its common sense to avoid situations where the temptation is strong.

"...and wanted to have a sexual relationship."

Not so good!

"He told her about one of his affairs (this was months before he told me) and that he was in an unhappy marriage. He also complained to her about me."

This is very bad and another red flag. Running down your partner and your marriage is a step towards justification of an affair. The underlying logic is that the marriage isn't a proper marriage - my wife doesn't understand me is the cliche. I guess every OW in the history of the world has been told something like that.

"I found out today that he is still spending time with her during breaks. She smokes (which means they have to go outside the building) and he recently started smoking again after quitting for 14 years. I asked if he took breaks with her outside while she smoked before I asked about the cell phone calls and he said "yes."

Another question is did he take up smoking again in order to spend time with her?

"Question: Is it wrong (paranoid) of me to ask him to quit spending time/talking with her unless it is necessary for business reasons? I told him that it bothered me that he was doing this because I knew he was attracted to her."

Normally I'd say that it's about setting boundaries and keeping to them but in his case he has a track record of previous affairs, there's the secrecy issue, the stated desire for a sexual relationship and the criticism of you and the marriage. In the light of all these items I'd say your attitude is perfectly reasonable.

"I asked him if she knew he wanted to have sex with her and he said "no, and that he didn't feel that way about her anymore." He promised me that he was committed to me and working together on our marriage."

Have you done the ENQ and used the other materials on this site. I can testify that they do work and the best long term defence against an affair is a great marriage - not just an OK one or a good one but a great one. And I had an OK one for nearly 20 years. Until I discovered MB I thought that was what marriage was like.

"He said I just have to trust him..."

No. Marriage is not based on trust, it's based on honesty. We're all wired to be attracted to the opposite sex and marriage doesn't change that. The defences are total honesty and adherence to boundaries of behaviour where the opposite sex are concerned. You H has demonstrated that he is unreliable on both these points.

Your concern is absolutely justified and reasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Toofargone:
<strong> Finding another job is not a option at the moment. I have been unemployed since being layed off two years ago and we are having a hard time making ends meet as it is. He has worked at this company since 1981 and we can't afford for him to take a pay cut -- we would lose the house. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Focus on what you CAN do for the moment. You know already that he's a serial cheater. You've had evidence of that in front of you for a long time. Could it be depression from that fact alone that is keeping you from finding a job yourself?

Reality is what it is. I strongly suggest you focus all your mental efforts on finding a job right now. Or building a home business. What did you do before you were laid off? What could you do if you started your own business?

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I have lots of self-doubts and it helps to know I'm not over-reacting.

I think depression may have hindered my job search. I didn't know about my H's affairs until 2-3 months ago but I knew something was wrong in the marriage, especially the past year. I think now that he suffering from withdrawal because OW#2 ended their sexual relationship in October 2002. About six months later he started having a closer "friendship" with OW#3 and calling her house, discussing our marriage.

I know I need to find a job. I have worked throughout our marriage until the layoff two years ago. I have sent out resumes but am not even getting interviews. I didn't know it would be this hard -- I have a B.S. in Economics -- but am ready to take just about anything.

Thanks again everyone.