Hi All,

Its been a while since I posted, here is a brief history.

DDAY 7/02 W was having an A with OM. Swore to end it. Found out 2 weeks later PA was still on. I had major rants and LBs after 2nd DDay.

Found MB and Divorce Busting. Implmented a modified plan A. Be her friend, no LBs, but didn't tell anyone else of A. W says the changes she saw in me stopped her from filing D. A continued, verified from me spying, into October.

W slowly responding to me, started taking whirlpool baths with me and opening up during these baths. 1st bath she says how lucky she is to have the kids, me and the house. 2nd bath she says A is over in her mind and she is getting OM to understand that. She says A will be over by Christmas. I think the PA is already over for now.

I left for a hunting trip, which I cut to 1 day so W could get out with D. Got back and checked W's cell, found out she talked to OM for 50 minutes. She still gets very mad at me for looking at her cellphone.

I didn't confront her about the cell but talked to her about the people I seen on these boards that wanted to end the A but were having a hard time. I told her I was concerned for her and our family and suggested she may want to talk to her IC, a MC, me or read SAA. She said you looked at my phone didn't you and I told her yes. She got upset and we had a major backslide. She said we lost 4 months of progress, but said she didn't need OM and was really ending the A.

A couple days later, I told her we need some time and space to recover from or backslide, but said I wasn't prepared to do that with the continued contact with OM and asked her to promise she was going to end the A. She did. And in the week since the backslide, we have been making good progress in recovering from our setback. Right now W is very sensitve to R talk so at this point. I believe she wants to end the A. I fear asking her for further assurances is going to push her away. I, at some point, will need more from her.

Thats were we sit as of now. I plan on giving her space and just being her friend, helpful and a good dad through New Years. As I read stories, the successes almost always have the two spouses working together and following a program such as the Harley's for maritial recovery. I'm not sure if I want the M to last if we aren't going to work to make it better. I'm looking for suggestions on how to ease my still foggy wife into the idea of making this effort at recovery together. Any ideas?

Also, I've convinced myself that I will tell OM's W and maybe his boss if I sense anymore contact between W and OM. I think his pursuit of her at work and her at first telling him no, would be enough to get him at least transferred out of my wifes building. I didn't tell yet because I didn't want to get W upset, want to keep A private (I know the Harleys don't agree with those two reasons) and after W has ended the A, I hope to tell OM that if I sense any further contact, I'm going to lose my patience and he will face consquences for his actions. (That being me telling his W and boss, not sure whether I'd tell him that was my plan though) Any thoughts on this approach?

Thank you,

FAM_MAN

Fam,

I think you are doing well, and I do understand your trepidation about exposure. You're right, it's not the Harley approach....and the reason is....exposure ends affairs, and recovery CANNOT begin until the affair ends. How you expose though...can be done in a more discreet way and still have the same effect. I say this because I think that right now, there is one person that needs this information and can have a profound effect reaching the goal. His wife. You have got to stop basing your actions on your fear of alienating your wife. What is alienating your wife is the affair and her desire to keep it a secret. His wife not only deserves to know the truth, but she can be an incredible advocate in the battle to save both of these marriages. I know it's Christmas....and this is a crummy present....but that's short term thinking. Eventually, there is no bette gift than honesty. Your wife reacts the way she does because she can manipulate you into enabling her to continue the affair. Stop letting her.

FAM MAN,
There are others here that will give you good advice on specifics, but from my own experience I will tell you that you will probably need to do SOMETHING to put more pressure on your WW affair.

You have been at this for five months now and your W keeps telling you that the A is going to end but it hasn't yet. That's because she has got the best of both world's going right now. As long as you are this accomodating to her she has no real incentive to leave the other relationship. My FWW A fell apart pretty quickly after it was exposed to the world.

Plan A is about bettering yourself as well as negotiating an end to the A with you WW. You may be able to get her to end the A in time by continuing what you are doing. Just be careful that you don't go too long and end up losing your love for her. Another thing I can tell you from experience is that you have to stay aware of your own feelings because your wife can empty your LB quickly with this kind of behavior. You can get so concentrated on her that you lose sight of yourself and before you know it you have no desire to save your M anymore. You are the one that is going to have to do the hard work at the start of this and if you lose your desire to do it your M is lost.

While I applaud your avoidance of all love busters, I'm afraid that you are enabling her affair. By not exposing her affair to the OM's W you have shown your WW that your fear of losing her is greater than her fear of losing you. Exposure of the affair to the OM's W, whether she ended the affair immediately or not, is an essential part of Plan A. Just like there is no such thing as a modified Plan B, there is no such thing as a modified Plan A. You may FEEL that you are doing the right thing but what you are doing will eventually cost you all the love you have for her as well as the desire to save and rebuild the marriage. By the time she is finally ready to end all contact with the OM and recommit to a marital recovery plan, it may be too late for you and the marriage.

Thank you very much for your feedback. I now know I have the nerve to tell OM's W. My W and I are doing OK right now and I believe, with her comments in the last couple of weeks, that she wants to end the A. We made progress this week from our biggest backslide and I'm not sure I want to lose that. I guess I'd almost like to find evidence of another occurance of contact so I can justify my telling OMW after W recently promised it was over. I know, I need some balls right.

How does this sound, I keep my eyes peeled for contact and tell OMW Jan 2 if I see it. In early Jan I ask W for ideas on how we can keep the ball rolling on our positive changes, if she is not cooperative, I'll assume there is a good chance contact has not ended and tell OMW. If I wait until after Jan 1st I can tell W that I had enough respect for the OM's family to wait until after the holidays and that is a lot more than he has shown either of our families.

Beyond telling OMW, I think I will tell OM's Boss & Head of HR to see if there is any recourse from there.

I'm hesitant to tell W coworkers or family as she may see this as vindictive and I've read where WS can have a hard time coming back to an M because they can't face everyone who knows.

Possibly I could talk to a man in my wifes office area who seems nice. I'd like to tell him I believe OM is pursuing my W. Could you please look out for her and let me know if anything happens.

Another option is to talk to W's boss and explain that this is not helping W or her productivity. She's in a position where getting transferred to another building across town would not be unusual.

OM pursued my W, she is at fault for giving in, but I think my W would not have ended up in an A if OM listened to her say STOP dozens of times. I'd rather isolate exposure to OM because the scum deserves it and while my wife needs a kick in the a$$, I need don't need the bigger lovebank withdrawl that exposing her directly would cause.

In telling OMW should I just tell her enough to give her an overview of what is going on. If she doesn't know, I expect even tidbits could turn her into a basket case. Also, I want their M to recover so he isn't free to pursue my W. I have some damning evidence, clothing, phone records, VMs, the fact that OM moved his family 30 miles to our town. I expect the move might be a ploy to lock my W into a decision. As far as the move, if OMW knows where we live she will probably figure it out. Should I share everything or just enough to get OM nailed? Should I stay anonymous with OMW and just give a cell# or email address or tell her our address, and phone #, etc. Could also give my W's work phone number. Should I give OMW a copy of SAA and tips on how to save the M?

Also to save the LB from this exposure how about asking OMW to claim she discovered A on her own, like by looking at his cellphone? That might also be helpful if WSs didn't know we were teaming up on ending the A.

Thanks again for your input,

FAM_MAN

I had a interesting phone call today. My MIL, whom I'm close with called me today to discuss some Christmas presents. She then asked how are things going between me and W, she said she knows things are not right between us. I teared up and said we are having some problems. She then talked about some things my W said and mentioned about W being wayward. I was suprised to think W had told her mom that but I opened up to her. As we talked my MIL said W had not told her but she sensed that is what was happening and she also sensed my W had a drinking problem. MIL and W's sister said W is not herself and that they are 100% behind my efforts to repair the M. MIL feels the drinking is a big part of the problem, but I have have been trying to get W away from OM first.

Anyway, it was great to open up to someone I'm close with, although I feel MIL is going to be drawn into the pain of this whole thing. I'm not sure what do to with this new turn. My W is close to her Mom but I don't know if MIL could be of any help in breaking the fog or not. MIL and I promised to keep this between MIL, FIL, and W's sister for now. We discussed all having a talk with W in January, but I really don't know if that would help or hurt.

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

1_4_All

Have you read Takola's post on Just Found Out - "I think I'm going to sue" ? That's exactly how I did MB program, and now my H and OW are living together. Consider sticking to the program and not making excuses for W to continue her cake-eating. Good luck and hang in there.

I am thinking that the OM's wife probably knows that something is up anyways - so I think that you should tell her... Wouldn't you want the OM's wife to tell you if you didn't know???

Tell his wife. And, click on the link in my signature line.

I had a interesting phone call today. My MIL, whom I'm close with called me today to discuss some Christmas presents. She then asked how are things going between me and W, she said she knows things are not right between us. I teared up and said we are having some problems. She then talked about some things my W said and mentioned about W being wayward. I was suprised to think W had told her mom that but I opened up to her. As we talked my MIL said W had not told her but she sensed that is what was happening and she also sensed my W had a drinking problem.

fam.....Addiction seems to run in pairs. It doesn't surprise me at all that alcohol would have an effect on this situation....is a very effective way after all of avoidin the real world and staying in the fog. Consider your situation. Your wife is almost certainly involved in an affair....but will not admit to it. You cannot get the truth from her without snooping and then she gets angry. Everyone seems to sense the same thing. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck. She's going to be fighting mad....but it's time for exposure chere. Believe it or not....but the anger caused by exposure is short lived.....especially....if you do this right. It's ESSENTIALLY important that you do it without vindictiveness and than all who are told know that your sole aim is to end the affair and rebuild your marriage. For this...I HIGHLY recommend a coach. The Harleys or cerri would be a godsend right now. I work as a mentor for cerri's site and I feel confident that she would tell you it's time to inject a little conflict into the affair....and nothing does that like exposure. Add the holidays....and it should get stressful in fantasyland real fast. The idea is that exposure is like a splash of reality. Truth is sometimes painful, but a necessary part of this process. Please start gathering up your courage...because this will get worse before it gets better. Exposure makes the WS very unhappy....and initially very angry. But the purpose of Plan A is NOT to make your wife happier or make you a better person (that may happen) but to END THE AFFAIR.

MIL and W's sister said W is not herself and that they are 100% behind my efforts to repair the M. MIL feels the drinking is a big part of the problem, but I have have been trying to get W away from OM first.

I agree ending the affair comes first....but you realize of course that these things work in tandem. Having family on your side is a huge asset....but please, keep in mind that blood is thicker than water. Before this is over....your wife may paint you as the wicked awful husband and they can desert you like a sinking ship. That is why....it is so important to keep your nose clean....NO love busters...not to your wife and not to her family. Your motivation must seem beyond reproach....when you deal with her family.

Anyway, it was great to open up to someone I'm close with, although I feel MIL is going to be drawn into the pain of this whole thing.

Yep....families, children, friends....the path of destruction from affairs is very wide. You can't prevent that....and the most important thing is: YOU AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. You have partial responsibility for the vulnerability of your marriage...and yes, work on what you can....but she has total responsibility for the affair and the pain it causes. It is not your responsibility to help her have the affair by protecting her and lying for her. Don't do it. I'm sorry that this is so painful for all of you. I hope she wakes up soon.

I'm not sure what do to with this new turn. My W is close to her Mom but I don't know if MIL could be of any help in breaking the fog or not. MIL and I promised to keep this between MIL, FIL, and W's sister for now. We discussed all having a talk with W in January, but I really don't know if that would help or hurt.

One of the problems with delaying exposure....is that the longer this affair goes on....the more entrenched and addictive it becomes. The biggest fear that BS has about exposure is that their spouse will be MAD....when the most destructive thing is the AFFAIR and they let that continue while avoiding anger. It's penny wise and dollar foolish. You might win the battle that way....and lose the war. Affairs need secrecy. You blow the lid off of this thing and yes....it will cause a furor....but consider this. Statistically, very few men leave their wives for the other woman. Nine chances out of ten....this OM is going to be pitching and fetching and begging his wife to take him back and swearing he'll never talk to your wife again! You are NOT responsible for ruining HIS wife's Christmas....HE is. You're just the messenger.

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Thank you so much for your valuable input. When I tell OMW should I just tell her the "highlights" and leave out the more damning evidence or let them have it with both barrels?

Should I be concerned about overwhelming OMW with to many details. Should tell enough to prove A to her then tell her, call me if you need to know more?

Also, I'm concerned about telling too much and having OMW totally reject OM, then D, the he is free for the pursuit of my W.

Fam-man

You are avoiding the issue of exposing the affair. Several people with trememdous experience have told you how to proceed. You are helping your W continue the A. Do you enjoy knowing that your W is sleeping with OM? Of course not, so get off of your behind and start fighting for your marriage!

Beau

Fam,

Stick to the basic facts. She can get the details from her H. If you have proof and she asks for it...then yes....offer it. But try not to hurt her anymore than necessary. Most of the time....it goes something like this: Ms. so and so....my name is such and such. I'm really sorry to have to tell you this, but I think we should talk. My wife is having an affair with your husband. I want to save my marriage and my family, and I hope that you will also want to work on yours. I am following the advice given by a good marriage counselor, and exposing this affair in the hopes that it will end it so that we can both work on our marriages. I'm so sorry to be the bearer of bad news, please forgive me...I know this is a bad time. Here is my number if you need to ask questions. Please don't give up on your marriage....we both need to keep our families together.

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Update,

W is very distant after I told her her Mom and sister both called me concerned about her drinking. Because of MY mishandling of the situation caused by my Ws' actions she is very pissed, says she wants to get through Christmas for the kids and then make a decision on us. We have made very good progress, but because of continued contact with OM, I beleive talking only right now and her drinking which ramped up after DDay, my controlled confrontations have pissed her off and she back talking to OM. So I'm preparing to tell OM's wife and send my W an email explaining why after I do it. Only thing I want to confirm is if there is any way I can get a court order or part of a Divorce agreement that will prevent OM from contact with my kids or ever living in my house which I'd consider giving up if there was no possible way OM could ever live there. W is already pissed and I fear my telling OMW may be it for us but I'm through living like this.

Any insight.

FAM_MAN

Hi Fam Man,

Your story sounds only too familiar. I went through a similar cycle a year ago. You and your wife are locked in a behavioural pattern which doesn&#8217;t help you moving forward:

1. She&#8217;s in contact with OM
2. You have some cosy sessions in the bathtub and R-talks
3. You find out
4. She gets upset and punishes you by saying &#8220;this is a backlide&#8221;, a great excuse to &#8230;. Go back to point 1.

This ain&#8217;t working, fam man, I&#8217;m telling you. Why should she drop OM? All it takes is a Jacuzzi session with you, promise of some progress in the future, and hey presto, she can continue to see OM. And if you dare to check on her, well, she&#8217;ll get all upset and makes you a girlie scene.

What to do about it? First, you cant expect her to change behaviour immediately. Do a plan A. How long have you been doing it? Give it at least 6 months or so. (I did it for more than a year). Make it clear that you disapprove of her seeing OM. Don&#8217;t be afraid of checking out on her and her scenes. Tell her, over and over again, in the nicest possible way, that you can&#8217;t live in a ménage a trois.

My second piece of advice is &#8211; expose the affair. Don&#8217;t keep it to yourself &#8211; otherwise you&#8217;re an accomplice in her affair. I kept it to myself, which in hindsight I recognise now was a mistake.

Take care
N