Hello folks. It's been a few day since I talked with OM's wife. I am not sure how much help I can expect at that end at least for now.

With the Holiday season upon us I plan to use it to remind her about the good times we have had as a family. I will plan A with no LB's and try to meet her needs without smothering her. I will continue to gently bring up the subject of the OM and how she needs to break off contact, how it hurts me, and how both of us need to commit to rebuilding a better marriage.

To the best of my ability I will try not to enable the A while doing plan A.

Nevertheless, I am fearful. This A has gone on even much longer that I thought it had. It may be as old as 6 years!! If I absolutely insisted my wife choose today between him and me, I am certain she would choose him. At least in the short run.

I guess what I am looking for is advice and hope from other BS whose wayward spouses have been in long-term affairs.

This is really hard. What does WW tell you she wants to do? Dday (before I found MB) I asked that question of WH, and he replied "I don't know." My response was "Do I need a lawyer?" He said no, but the "I don't know" still haunts me. I made it clear from the beginning that I did not intend to share him with OW. A lot of good it did, since he continued to lie to me for another year. See my signature for # of Ddays...

I did plan A throughout, and continue to. I did a weak plan B(6 days). My biggest regret is not doing it sooner, since the plan B and disclosure of the A to select friends were what finally got his attention.

The A was 3 years. Not as long as your W's, but clearly there was love between them, which I really struggle with.

Relationships differ, so I would never suggest handling things the way I did. The important thing is that you use your knowledge of your W and your desire to heal the marriage to persuade her to give up OM. The hardest thing about Plan A while the A continues is that you are allowing yourself to be treated with disrespect and endangering your self-respect. Where to draw the line is a really tough call, but try to set some boundaries to protect your own spirit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

If she has been having an affair for 6 years she is not going to emotionally divorce the OM unless she sees what the consequences are going to be such as a divorce in which her family is broken up and she continues to be only the OW with no future with the OM because he refuses to leave his family.

Yosh, I would really like to know why your answer to everything is "get a divorce!" I have a sense that that's not the best answer in most cases, and I wonder why you think it is.

Auto, I have a good friend who discovered his wife's affair after something like six years. They had a very difficult time, but they're still married and recovering. (Things aren't perfect with them, but then again he never insisted on NC and extraordinary precautions and they see OM twice a week. I'd have a hard time with that, too!) So... it is indeed possible to recover from an affair after a long time. I guess I would say that your plan for a solid Plan A (but where's the exposure?) is always important and always takes some time to get done right. Keep going and keep clear about why you're doing it. It's okay to worry about what you're doing -- it's hard stuff! And keep going anyway, because it's the right stuff.

auto...
anything is possible...but 6 years of cheating and lying make for quite a track record.

here's the real question i would ask myself...if she just flat refuses to give him up what is my response going to be?...and what time frame am i going to use to determine what has to happen by when?

or maybe you're content to leave things as they are for as long as it lasts?

and to Yosh...while i feel you do have a tendency to be a bit negative and i don't agree with you most of the time, i would like to urge you to continue to express your opinions...

i have to say that i get a bit sick and tired of the constant "pollyannarish" knee jerk response from to many people on the board...responses that often don't take into account the individuale nature of each problem.

worse then that however, i also sense a certain lack of tolerence....for opinions that differ from that which prevails among the majority...and this saddens me.

in my humble opinion it's in the differing view points expressed that we find real understanding...i don't believe true insight is ever found in just that which is accepted or expected.

sorry if anyone is offended.
coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:

i have to say that i get a bit sick and tired of the constant "pollyannarish" knee jerk response from to many people on the board...responses that often don't take into account the individuale nature of each problem.

worse then that however, i also sense a certain lack of tolerence....for opinions that differ from that which prevails among the majority...and this saddens me.

in my humble opinion it's in the differing view points expressed that we find real understanding...i don't believe true insight is ever found in just that which is accepted or expected.

sorry if anyone is offended.
coach</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to worry about offending us coach. We know that your responses are from your experience and heart. You KNOW what love is all about. Sometimes your comments may not be MB orthodoxy but we KNOW that they are meant to help both BS and WS alike.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Originally posted by coach3530:

i have to say that i get a bit sick and tired of the constant "pollyannarish" knee jerk response from to many people on the board...responses that often don't take into account the individuale nature of each problem. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think, though, that the constant bilious "knee jerk" reactions we sometimes see lately are even more harmful. And they take the individual nature of each problem even less into account. The relative impact of the pollyanna versus the bilious responses must be considered, as well. There isn't much harm in writing, "Be patient, work on it, think about EN's" even if that isn't completely appropriate to a particular case. There may be a great deal of harm in writing, "You're a fool if you don't divorce, right now."

And I take no offense at all, coach.

I guess I should flesh out my Plan A plans.

First, to avoid the LB's as stated on this site.

Second, notify important people of the A, including OMW, Pastor, famly members (only one brother is alive, parents are deceased), and close friends. I do not plan on "telling everybody" at this point. But see below.

Third, continue to ensure that she knows how much pain I am in due to the A.

Fourth, continue to discuss with her ending the A and entering NC with the OM. This discussion, to be done without LB's (I hope) will not go away. I will press this issue as it is central to recovery.

Fifth, if she ever sees him again (remember he lives out of town), I will tell her to have some other place to live when she comes back. I will NOT expose myself to STD's and I really don't want to make love to OM's lover. Also, if she sees him again I will tell everybody about the affair. For example at church I will say "Sorry, WW is not here today, she is at Hotel LuvyDuvy with her boyfriend" or some such thing.

Sixth, get IC for myself. If she will agree to it then we can get counseling together.

Seven, Give my son a big hug when he graduates from basic training. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think what I plan on doing is consistent with Plan A and trying to get her to break off the A.

<small>[ December 05, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

I had an interesting experience this AM. I brought a book with me to the local Starbucks where I ordereda mocha and sat down at a small table to read. About 6 feet away from me were four women, all single as far as I could tell, talking. Over and over again these women went back to their favorite subject - men. I could not help but notice that they were in my age group, the mid-40's to early 50's. All were very attractive in various ways.

I found myself fantasizing what it would be like to be single. How would I approach these women and let them know I was available? It was kind of scary. Like I was being tempted to accept the current situation. Needless to say I said and did nothing. Yet, I can't help but notice that there seem to be many fine, single women in my age group. Scary, yet reassuring.

Am I crazy? Mixed-up? Do any other BS feel this way?

Hi auto,

I think temptation and the opposite sex are everywhere and isn't it funny how there always seems to be more availability when you yourself are not?

If I had a dime for evey guy that noticed me in some way,said how attractive I was or had a nice comment....

Anyway,I tend to turn my head and "not go there". Until I am actually divorced and had time to heal on my own for awhile,there isn't any purpose to letting those seeds(feelings) start to grow.It is nice to be appreciated and noticed but that's as far as I let it get in my mind. I have enough to think about at the moment! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

October

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will plan A with no LB's and try to meet her needs without smothering her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will continue to gently bring up the subject of the OM and how she needs to break off contact,... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ackk!!! NO! DJ!!! Not in Plan A. OK as a condition of recovery in Plan B, but not in Plan A. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...how it hurts me, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! But only as she does or says things that actually hurt you. Don't bring it up out of the blue. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...and how both of us need to commit to rebuilding a better marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ack!!! No! She is not ready to do this, or you wouldn't be in Plan A. It will just discourage her. Make your time together fun, unless she is doing something that hurts you, in which case you tell her how her actions make you feel, NOT what you think about them, respectfully.

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

J39, some of your comment surprised me. I thought I had understood Plan A very well.

OK, so I can't bring up NC with the OM. But, if I find her in contact with OM, say via e-mail or on the phone, then I can tell her something like "I feel bad when I hear you talking to OM". Correct?


But, below is a quote from Harley's explaination of plan A on this site:

"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands'"

How do I negotiate the separation if I can't bring it up? Somehow, I am not understanding this.

If I can't bring up NC, how is she to know that is what I want her to do? Do I assume she figures it out from my telling her that it causes me pain? Or do I wait until she tells me she wants to save/rebuild our marriage and then I tell her about NC?

I can't seem to get the order straight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

I would like to respond to the criticism that I am negative. I responded to a post in which the wife is in a 6 year affair and refuses to end it. The question posed is what to do. The answer given by one poster is to plan A and to ask this married woman who has become comfortable with having another relationship not to continue because she is hurting her husband. Now this is being asked of a woman who already knows that she doing wrong and does not care if she hurts her husband. Otherwise she would have broken off this affair a long time ago. It is my opinion, Plan A/B will not work as long as she continues to be in contact with the OM, especially one that has lasted 6 years .
The dilemma is that if you do nothing you enable the affair. The only choice left is to file for divorce and bring things to a head in which the wife has to take a serious look at the future consequences to her and the family. We have to remember that this affair has continued longer than the average affair (that PlanA/B is made for) that lasts 6 months to 2 years.

Hi Auto
I often lurk here but don't post so much these days. My husband was involved in a six year affair with my former best friend. We have been in recovery now for 2 1/4 years. In fact they had also had a short fling 13 years before Dday but that was short lived and so it was dormant until it restarted 6 years before Dday, so I often wonder if it really was a 13 year affair.

Anyway you asked for some hope. I just want to let you know that recovery is possible. I am not going to say that it was easy. It was not. I would say the biggest emotional rollercoaster possible. But here we are. Our marriage is good now, although I would be lying if I said that I still have the odd insecurity or trigger.

I learnt of the affair before knowing about marriage builders. So I guess I didn't handle things exactly MB style. After initial discovery my H minimised affair (eg length, degree of involvement) so initially I was staying together, however after he contacted OW to tell it was over the OW rang me with the full extent of the affair and other ways he had deceived me (eg, hidden phone, bank account)

I'm afraid after this disclosure I asked him to leave and was headed to my family in Queensland. I guess it was more like a "Tough Love Approach" ala Dobson (great book if you have not read it.
Well he managed to get me to go to counseling and we eventually reconciled. So I guess that by the time I found MB affair was ended (although there was a few calls that I knew about re financial concerns made early after this, with me present). However I still instituted aspects of plan A and the general MB philosphy to improve our marriage.

I think that there are some differences after a long term affair. One is it was very hard for me to remember what our relationship had been like prior to so long ago. I wondered if I really knew what a healthy relationship looked or felt like. I also distrusted my own ability to see the truth. I felt like majority of marriage had been a farce as if I had been living a fantasy. I too wondered if it was possible to recover after so long an affair. But clearly it is.

There are others here on MB. There was a thread not so long ago asking for Long term affair survivors and there were quite a lot of posters. You might be able to find it if you search.

I think your feelings when around the women recently are normal for someone going through what you are going through. I too felt like this early on. I guess my self esteem had taken such a blow that I was boosting it by noticing male attention that formerly I would not have. I flirted a fair bit too. I guess it bolstered me up enough to realise that I was OK even if WH had looked elsewhere.

Good luck Auto

Auto: You raise some great questions, and I am not sure I am qualified to answer. My understanding is that Plan A is about, in order: 1.) avoiding love busters 2.) exposure 3.)meetng needs and 4.) honestly communicating your feelings. So, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, so I can't bring up NC with the OM. But, if I find her in contact with OM, say via e-mail or on the phone, then I can tell her something like "I feel bad when I hear you talking to OM". Correct? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, actually you can bring up NC with the OM. See below. Do you just "feel bad"? How about "I feel like you are stabbing me in the heart and twisting the blade"? You need to get at the visceral power of what she is doing. This will not be pretty. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will continue to gently bring up the subject of the OM and how she needs to break off contact </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No matter how gently you bring it up, you are telling her what she needs to do. Read that as demanding, disrespectful, etc. Loverbuster. ASK her if she will break off contact with the OM. But TELL her she needs to? No. So, I guess the difference is that you can tell her nothing about what she needs to do. Ask her if she will do it. There is a HUGE difference. Don't say "Harley says you have to do this to recover". That is educating her, and is disrespectful. Say "I need this to recover." </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...and how both of us need to commit to rebuilding a better marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling her what to do again. How about ASKING her if she will break off her relationship with the OM so the two of you can work on your marriage unimpeded?

One of the things about meeting her emotional needs is that you need to make the time you spend together fun. Talking about her relationship with the OM is not fun for her, especially talking about her ending it. Talking about how her actions make you feel is not fun either, but necessary.

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by yosh:
<strong> I would like to respond to the criticism that I am negative. I responded to a post in which the wife is in a 6 year affair and refuses to end it. The question posed is what to do. The answer given by one poster is to plan A and to ask this married woman who has become comfortable with having another relationship not to continue because she is hurting her husband. Now this is being asked of a woman who already knows that she doing wrong and does not care if she hurts her husband. Otherwise she would have broken off this affair a long time ago. It is my opinion, Plan A/B will not work as long as she continues to be in contact with the OM, especially one that has lasted 6 years .
The dilemma is that if you do nothing you enable the affair. The only choice left is to file for divorce and bring things to a head in which the wife has to take a serious look at the future consequences to her and the family. We have to remember that this affair has continued longer than the average affair (that PlanA/B is made for) that lasts 6 months to 2 years. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that in point of fact that you have been criticized for being uniformly negative, not for being negative in this particular incidence. Your argument "spins" the criticism to a question concerning this particular case. However, a singular example does not prove an argument. The question of how appropriate your comments are was aimed at the body of your contributions, not at your contribution to a single thread. Members can judge for themselves by clicking on the name of a poster, which will open a new window, and then clicking on "recent contributions" within that window. The resulting list will permit anyone to peruse the most recent set of notes posted by the person in question.

I would also still be interested in hearing the particulars of your case. Have you ever been married? Are you struggling with A issues? You've never shared anything about yourself with us. Perhaps we can help you, as you've tried to help us.

Folks, I would appreciate keeping this thread to the topic on hand. That is helping me do a good plan A.

I suggest debating the pros and cons of individual members and messages someplace else.

Thanks.

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

Thanks J39, I think I understand the difference now. I will do my best.

You're right, auto, and I apologize for threadjacking. I'll stay off of this one from now on.

Good luck to you and God bless.

It is difficult to be a fun and interesting person, when I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. In other words, for her to tell me, after the Holidays, that she is moving out.

Whenever we talk about future events anything past 1/1/04 it is met with a one or two word non-commmital answer. For example if I ask if we should go to Joe's 44th birthday party in January, she says "maybe, let's see". Joe and his wife are good friends. This should be a no-brainer decision.

Ok, I know I should be patient and I will be. I am sure she is struggling. I just don't know what she is struggling with, to leave me OR the best time to leave me.

I will try to meet as many needs as I can and avoid LB's but right now I feel locked out of her heart. I didn't think anything could hurt worse than the A. But, being locked out of her heart so that I can't work with her to rebuild our marriage is even more painful.

Thanks for all your help. I know that I am doing the best I can and all that is possible. I'll be patient and work on myself. I just needed to vent. I have a week until my appointment for IC so you folks may get to hear more venting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />