Hello everybody

I haven’t posted at all for a couple of month now. I guess most on this board here don’t know me (similarly, I don’t know most of you here anymore.... Looks like a whole new generation of betrayed and betrayees is out there now!).

An introductory word to all newbies (or relative newbies): You know what, life *WILL* and *DOES* improve at some point after all that D-Day/Plan A/Plan B/plan whatever struggle, even if, at the moment of betrayal and suffering, everything seems lost and pointless.

As the title to this post and my sig line shows, I moved out pretty much half a year ago and implemented a full plan B. Communication with WW is limited to brief one line emails to organise who will pick up our daughter and where. Also, as I wrote in my last post (written after a month of plan B) that the madness of the whole situation has sunk in, and I understand now clearly that WW is mentally pretty sick and depressed. When I lived with her I didn’t realise this – it was after all a very gradual change, and every tiny little difference in behaviour could be explained away. Only now, with the benefit of distance and time is it possible to look back and take stock – with the somewhat reassuring conclusion that it’s her, not me, who is mad.

She isn’t doing great. Not at all. Still hasn’t got a proper job (she started giving some piano lessons though), her plans are still wildly changing (as far as I know), daughter tells me that sometimes WW is crying and saying she was sorry; then I was at her (formerly - our) place the other day (she wasn’t there obviously) and it looked like a bomb went off; and it has occurred that I get a phone call from D’s school that no one was there to pick her up. Similarly, she doesn’t have any contact anymore with common friends, not sure about her family (who were bitterly disappointed in her – not sure what the latest is on that front). Our daughter, when I have her over the weekend, is each time at the beginning very hyperactive, and can only calm down after a while - WW’s nervousness and despair is clearly leaving marks on our daughter. WW mentioned in her last email (a month ago) the D word (D for Divorce) – I haven’t filed yet, and if she really wants it, nothing stops her from filing (but here too, she seems paralysed). Finally, she is going to see her sweetheart OM, who seems to be the only person in her universe now, in San Francisco over new year (guess who pays for it) whilst I enjoy a skiing vacation with our daughter.

The situation isn’t as bad as to take legal steps to take the daughter away from her – but I’m monitoring the situation closely and am prepared for the necessary steps.

In the mean time, I’m improving nicely on all fronts: New job, new apartment (well, both not so new anymore actually!) and - a great network of friends and family who reach out for me and help. On the relationship front, I enjoy the variety of it at the moment – I had quite a few short, but warm relationships in the past half year. At this point I’m not looking for anything deep – rather, I seek (mutual) enjoyment. Now, I already said something along these lines in my last post a few months back, which triggered an uproar with regard to the morality of dating whilst in plan B, well, let’s nto go there again. My attitude to relationships may change, as I’ve met a girl recently to whom I feel emotionally very close and with whom I can imagine having a much deeper relationship. Let’s see!

On the legal front I met again with my solicitor. I told myself to stay put for 6 months of plan B – and this time is running out now. After xmas I file – definitely for a full legal separation, maybe for the full divorce.

Nevertheless, I have a couple of questions and a bit of doubt. The question is –

<strong> Shall I offer her to celebrate xmas together? </strong>

One line of argument goes like this: She&#8217;s obviously a person in despair, in a depression. Incidentally, she&#8217;s going to see OM right afterwards &#8211; seeing the reality of him might dispel a bit her fantasy, and having a good memory of a joint xmas might help her decide for the family.

Another line goes like this: It&#8217;s over between us anyhow, the only thing that matters now is our co-parenting ability vis-à-vis our daughter So let&#8217;s swallow our pride, get together and give our daughter the best xmas we possibly can.

However, the third line is: She&#8217;s got my number, if she needs/wants something she can call. In the mean time, she&#8217;s got to realise that I&#8217;m simply not interested to waste another minute of my life with that woman.

And

Xmas is about creating a special athmosphere&#8230; I can do that very well for my daughter, but I&#8217;ll certainly not let it be ruined by WW.

So, 2 arguments in favour, 2 against. As said, I&#8217;m not sure what to do. But it matters less and less, and I certainly wont lose any sleep over this. I&#8217;ll probably decide at the spur of the moment.

***

Having said all that, do I still want her? Do I miss her? The person she used to be &#8211; YES. The person she is now &#8211; NO. The person she is now, but with an admission of guilt, a recognition that she is sick and needs help &#8211; MAYBE. But hurry up baby, I&#8217;m ready to close the final chapter of that book in January.

Oh the joy of Plan B, and the peace. I've been in it for 2 months now and am feeling better everyday. The awful hurt is gone, although WH is living with OW. Sounds like you are doing great. I think I would continue NC with WW, so she doesn't pull you down at Christmas. I don't see too many Plan B folks here. I wonder if they just quit caring and fade away and go on with their lives. Thanks for the update and letting everyone know that Plan B has worked in your healing, even though it has been without WW. Good luck and continue enjoying your life.

Don't know your whole story, but I sort of feel for your WW. Depression is a horrible, insidious, and treatable illness. Sometimes the sufferer is so immobililzed as to be incapable of getting help for themselves.

In this state, she may have given up all hope of ever repairing the M. If you have any desire to reclaim your marriage, you may consider suspending Plan B long enough to see if she will respond to another shot at Plan A, during which you may be able to get her to seek medical care and counseling for her condition.

Taking permanent action based on the judgement of a S who is not in their right mind doesn't seem wise.

I have a sister with a psych condition. When she has episodes, I have to love her for who she really is, not for the person manifested in the illness.

A little compassion and humankindness from you could possibly give her the courage to seek help and get past the despair.

Not that you are responsible for any aspect of her condition, but if you understand the illness, it could help you to help her overcome it.

Let us know what you decide, and how it turns out. --DT

As for what to do - yeah, keep silent.

Sorry, gotta do it, not for moral reasons, but for practical ones. You should not even THINK about seeing anyone of the opposite sex in anything even vaguely resembling a romantic or close emotional way for 2 years after the start of Plan B, MINIMUM. It just takes that long for people to stabilize. Period. You're different, I assume...isn't that what every WS says???

Hello Nick! Good to hear from you! I'm pretty much off the boards myself, nowadays.

Desperately Trying has a good point, but I feel obligated to say I feel the opposite. My H, too, seems to be mentally off in some way, though I'm not close enough to see as much as you do. Maybe that's the problem: for Plan B, her sitch is too much in-yo'-face. That pulls out all your emotions of pity -- believe me, I know the feeling. Right now, pity is pretty much what I have left for my H.

But the reason we go into Plan B is that we've made all the efforts we can. Presumably, you sent her a loving Plan B letter, which summarized all the best feelings you had for her. It's time for her to make an effort -- even the teensiest weensiest kind of effort. You simply cannot make it for her.

I've watched in horror as my H keeps making decisions that push him into a weird direction with crazy OW, and each time he does so he raises the bar for reconciliation higher. But there's nothing you or I can do at this point.

By the way, in our family, we celebrate 12th Night (Jan. 6) to solve the 2-family Christmas problem. That way you can take advantage of the sales, too!

I think getting together for Christmas creates all kinds of emotions in the kids that are bound to disappoint them -- that everything is ok, that mom and dad are getting back together. Truth is better for them, and you can make it as kind as you can.

Don't forget, Plan B is about protecting YOU. And it looks like it's worked for both of us. You can't go back into the maelstrom to pull her out. You tried that with Plan A; it didn't work.

Oh! Oh! Oh! This might be useful for you: I actually went on the Harley radio program, and one thing they said to me was that it's okay to come out of Plan B every couple weeks or months, sit down and have a discussion with the WS, ask them if they are willing to give up the OP. If they say "no," then you retreat back into Plan B silence.

Maybe you should try that at some point?

Hi Nick,
It is very good to hear from you. It does sound like you are doing very well.

I can't see how spending Christmas together will hurt. She may try some mind games on you, but I don't think you will fall for that stuff these days.

D may get hopes up if you don't warn her, but you know her well, and have been able to do a good job so far, so I believe she will be OK.

Yes, it would probably be good for you to be there larger than life, happy, in control, seemingly content - and then she goes to see OM and things are flat, going nowhere, depressing,and she knows it. You never know if she will wake up and see what is going on.

Anyway, so glad you are doing reasonably well. Wishing you all the best.

SS

Hello, hello, stranger...

Glad to hear from you.
I suspected you're taking a vacation from MB because the hurt is going away and things get balanced by the greatest healer of all - time. Good for you.

I could have posted the same update as you (LOL). It's scary how our stories resemble. My WW is also hurt, desperate, angry and depressed. My D is also hyper and restless when she comes home and relaxes after a few hours.

I sold the house, got a condo, have plenty of money left. Spending it wisely (tomorrow buying that camera I was talking to you about LOL). We are genuinely enjoying ourselves (my D an I).
WW...??? I don't know, but something tells me she entered a new stage in the relationship with OM. He is not a happy camper right now from what my D tells me. However, I don't care. If it wasn't for my D living with them every second week, I'd forget about WW and her "new partner" LOL.

Just like you, I intend to file soon. Que sérra, sérra. It'll either snap her out of the fog or will set me free. Strangely, neither scares me. I don't intend to date immediately if we divorce. Need some time to heal. At the same time, I don't want her back right away if she desires to comeback. The only thing I want, is to liberate my daughter from this hell.

Enough about me.

Plan B is Plan B. Don't slide back. It may hurt YOU to spend Xmas together. I wouldn't do it. What's the point. You have shown your good heart for many months and it didn't help her. Don't waste your time.

You're to nice of a guy worrying how she feels. Worry about yourself for now. When/if she becomes someone you would like to spend ANY time with, then worry about her. For now, you will only hurt yourself.

Cheers,

BigStar.

I would say don't spend Christmass together. Why risk your emotional strength, your daughters etc.

Let you WW make the next move.

I think you may be feeling some of the holiday blues. Though I don't have kids my WW left in March this year and we have had limited contact by her choice for the past 6 months.

I'm also feeling like I want to reach out and communicate even in the smallest way. I'm beginning to feel pity and sorry for my WW as I know she is no longer the woman she was.

The only glimpse I got into her affair was from OM wife and he's definetly not emotionally stable so my WW can't be in a great relationship with him.

best of luck

I think I would take a middle-of-the-road approach. I'd spend a small amount of energy testing the waters -- let your wife know that you'd like to see her, that you'd like to spend the time together as a family, that you still want to BE a family, that there is in fact a way back from the awful place where she is.

You may not get the response you want. But I think it's worth doing, nonetheless.

Hey Nick

I was wondering how you were doing, and was going to mail you. Time seems to move on at a cracking pace......

I am glad to hear you are doing well. I think after so much emotional stress the relief of not living on that rollercoaster anymore is overwhelming.

So, what to do about Christmas? Well, I think the points you make are all valid. I think I would go for the half-way option. Perhaps you could spend the morning together and then do something else. I understand that for your D it will be hard, whatever, and I know of people who have spent Christmas together, but I don't think they have had the emotional stresses that you have.

Would it be feasible for you to spend the morning and then do something else? Would you be able to cope with that?

Pound Man always used to see the girls for some time on Christmas irrespective of anything else. Funnily enough, for the first year ever this year, he'll be away in the States with Shiney Head.....

Take care friend and wishing you well

Lisa

Thanks everybody for your replies!

<strong> Beleiver </strong> Yes, the joy of plan B, indeed. It came to me as a great relief, and you seem to be in a similar situation. Not sure if people tend to post less whilst in plan B&#8230; maybe it&#8217;s just that there isn&#8217;t much to say, as there is no interaction with the spouse. And yes, plan B *does* work - it may not give you your spouse back, but then again, that&#8217;s not the primary purpose of plan B. Its&#8217;, as you say, about *yourself* and surely, that side has improved greatly!

<strong> desperatelytrying </strong> I agree that depression is, as you say, a horrible, insidious illness. It surely partly explains what I have been up to against &#8211; as mentioned, I just increasingly failed to get through. But you know what, there&#8217;s nothing I can do. She has to make the first step and recognise what&#8217;s going on and seek help &#8211; but as long as she actively refuses any help then there&#8217;s not much anyone can do. I know that she is seeing an IC (our former MC in fact), I have written to him with my diagnosis and that he should look out for signs of depression; I&#8217;m not expecting an answer back due to patient confidentiality of course, but I hope the chap is good and sees what&#8217;s going on.

<strong> John39 </strong> thanks for your input, which I choose to disregard. Where does your 2 years of chastity rule come from anyway? Sorry, but you must be out of your mind. I&#8217;d actually recommend dating to anyone in plan B &#8211; it helps to restore confidence, it helps to find enjoyment, it helps to open up the horizons, see everything more in perspective and it helps to let go.

<strong> A.M.Martin </strong> Yes &#8211; a big part of my feelings for my wife are now rather pity than &#8220;direct&#8221; love (but then again, without having some love for her left, I wouldn&#8217;t feel pity for her). I think your advice is v. wise, particularly re. not prompting false hopes in our daughter. You know, my wife isn&#8217;t Christian anyway, so she doesn&#8217;t really celebrate Christmas. But your idea to formally let WW know that in principle, and under certain conditions, I&#8217;d still be around for her is a v. good one.

<strong> still seeking </strong> Good to hear from you to. Yes, the comparison effect between a cosy family xmas vs. the surreal OM scenario was what I was thinking about Haven&#8217;t made up my mind fully though! I sleep a couple of more times over it.

<strong> BigStar </strong> my friend! Thanks for your update &#8211; as usual, our situations seem to be v. much in synch! Great that you buy the camara &#8211; there&#8217;s nothing better than pampering yourself with boys&#8217; toys, isn&#8217;t it. (I bought the 30GB iPod recently &#61514;). Let&#8217;s keep in touch, OK?

<strong> goodguy007 </strong> Many thanks for your advice. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m experiencing the holiday blues actually, I&#8217;ve got a quite exciting programme lined up for the special season. Good luck, good guy.

<strong> Just J </strong> Sound advice &#8211; that&#8217;s probably what I&#8217;m going to do. Offer it, but let her grab the outstretched hand. But you know it is a bit crazy, you know how many times in the last 4 years or so I have had my hand outstretched to her? Given that track record, I wont expect an awful lot in return, but then again, you never know, do you.

<strong> Lisa in London </strong> Lisa! Thought how you were doing. Yes, time passes&#8230;. Very quickly! Ridiculous how your X has the head so much in the sand that he even cant make space in his busy schedule for his own daughters!


Thanks for all your answers, views and advice. And have all a happy and merry xmas season!


Nick.

hi nick,
i only remember your story vaugely...however based on your current post, may i offer these words of advice?

you seem to have your life in some sort of order and are moving forward nicely...why....for what possible reason, would you want to get yourself involved in her current situation. it's not like she's even soliciting your help.

plan B is very structured and for a purpose. it's intended to protect you from seeing her in her current and unattractive state,...and to help you preserve what ever love you still have for her.

it's sad that she's in such a bad place right now but it's her sick choice...your choice should be more of the healthy variety...to continue improving and growing.

consider, why would you, a healthy person choose, (make a concious choice) to have a sick person in their life? WHY?

good luck.
coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’d actually recommend dating to anyone in plan B – it helps to restore confidence, it helps to find enjoyment, it helps to open up the horizons, see everything more in perspective and it helps to let go. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you prove my point with your own words. If you can't do those things without dating, you aren't ready. None of those things are really yours if you have to rely on other people to give them to you.

I’d actually recommend dating to anyone in plan B –
? You can recommend all you want, but dating is not part of Plan B.
If you want a divorce, then get one.
But don’t try to pretend you are in Plan B and concerned about your marriage.

Sorry, but you must be out of your mind.
Why? You must be out of your mind.
You write a Plan B letter (you did, correct?), telling your wife you want to remain married and then you date?
What kind of a message are you sending while doing this?

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Yes, as Chris points out: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> dating is not part of Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is designed to protect the love you have for your spouse from destruction from their hurtful behaviors, so that you will still be willing to reconcile if they ever turn around. Obviously, dating only makes it less likely that you will be willing to reconcile, and so does not serve that purpose. So, whatever its value, positive or negative, it is not part of Plan B.

I say this not for Nick's benefit, it is clear he is not listening. For anyone else contemplating Plan B, or looking for advice about Plan B, I hope that is a helpful clarification.

Nick:

Disregard all you want, but what you are doing is what you complain about your W doing. She should have DV'd you before getting involved with another. You should DV her before getting involved with another.

LOVE her by letting her go, as you say you've done. Then, set the kind of life example you want your D 2 b proud of.

ol' 2long

Happy New Year to all of you!

<strong>Chris, John, Coach, 2Long </strong> Thanks for your contributions &#8211; as mentioned, let&#8217;s leave the &#8220;dating whilst in plan B&#8221; issue aside here &#8211; or let&#8217;s start a separate thread on the topic. We&#8217;ve been around the block already a few times on that one, no need to go again. Nevertheless, your contributions and views are appreciated as always.

Quick update &#8211; starting this thread I asked whether I should invite WW around for a <strong> joint family xmas dinner </strong>, deliberated the pro&#8217;s and con&#8217;s &#8211; and decided to invite her. Ground rules were: let&#8217;s just celebrate xmas, no r-talk, let&#8217;s just be a family again &#8211; even if only for one evening.

You know what: It was beautiful. The food I cooked was delicious, xmas candles everywhere, I was positively excited &#8211; and WW too. We spoke about many things &#8211; except r-talk, and on many occasions I guess she was surprised on how far I&#8217;ve developed since we last spoke half a year ago: new job, nice new flat, self-concious and strong. She very much admired me and complemented me on my big heart for inviting her around &#8211; given what happened. I also showed her pictures and films I did of our daughter &#8211; that way she got a glimpse of how our daughter is doing whilst I look after her. She commented that &#8220;...daughter always has a sparkling glint in her eyes after having stayed with me&#8221;. (to which I wanted to say &#8211; you stupid cow, do you know how unapproachable, nervous, hyper and moody daughter is when I pick her up from you??). I briefed our daughter before the dinner that this is just for 1 evening and that this doesn&#8217;t mean we&#8217;re back together. The daughter, sweet little innocent thing, said several times &#8220;see mommy, he still likes you&#8221;, or &#8220;can we now be together again&#8221; and such things. Maybe it confused her, I don&#8217;t know, maybe it was a mistake to invite her at all. But &#8211; it was a special treat for her, to have mommy & daddy together, and she very much appreciated that, for sure. Bringing WW to the bus station, I simply said that what I wrote [plab B letter stating my conditions] is still very much true, and that the ball is in her court. She was evasive. The evening ended on a sad note when WW boarded the bus and our daughter cried &#8220;don&#8217;t leave us, mommy&#8221; &#8211; literally, WW was (again) leaving the family to pursue her own egoistic actions: The next day she flew to OM to San Francisco. Daughter & I on the other hand went to spend a fortnight skiing in the alps, which was great fun as usual.

Apart from sharing that wonderful xmassy spirit, I hoped that the contrast of family/ xmas and OM's fantasy-world / parallel universe would knock some sense into her. She is back now for 2 days already, and alas, I haven&#8217;t heard any positive noises or anything. Should I expect it? Don&#8217;t know. Part of me still hopes... but an other, growing, part acknowledges that it&#8217;s over and out, that I gotta move on, that you can only give so many times a chance.


I&#8217;m ready to file.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>I&#8217;m ready to file. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy new year 2 U 2, Nick. It is sad that WS can't see what they could have and can't see what they had lost in exchange of what they have now (OM). It seems that you are ready to move on. This is what plan B is designed for. BS could move on w/ or w/o WS.

-rh-

Hey Nick

Happy new year to you!!!

Well, I think you pretty much have it sussed. As RH says, you're ready either way which is part of Plan B. I'm glad you could enjoy Christmas whatever the outcome.

Keep us posted on what you do.

As ever,wishing you well

Lisa

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Nick --

I haven't been here myself for about four months. I came back to boost up the spirits of someone very down posting on D/D and thought I'd check GQ and there you were.

Actions. I know you know that's the ticket. I filed for a D in August as I knew that ex-H was not going to seek the professional help for his depression after three years of the rollercoaster and plan A and plan B. My divorce was final on December 24th. A mixture of sadness and relief and a sense of peace really. I went skiing for four days following that -- the mountains rejuvenate me.

You can hope all you want, but from your descriptions (and that is all I have to go on) your WW is in that same quagmire. They can keep getting your hopes up by these small interactions and then rip out your heart again by re-engaging with the OW/OM.

I don't know that I should tell you what to do -- I know that it just took my having had enough. The death of my father also put a sharp point on how short life really is and how I needed to move forward. Hoping that my ex-H was going to get help was doing nothing, but keeping me hanging on to a fantasy. I'm not trying to sound negative, but that's how it's coming across. Getting a D was the right thing for me. I don't know what the right thing for you is -- I can only share my experience.

I wanted to share one other thing that I thought was interesting. I have had two dates with a man that is probably going to be a friend -- nothing more -- but he did share with me that his marriage ended four years ago due to an affair on his part. I asked what happened to the OW and he said "I know this sounds messed up, but after I finally went to therapy and sorted out my own issues surrounding honesty and my unhappiness, I realized I couldn't be with a woman that could be with a married man". I thought that was very interesting.

Best to you -- USH